The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I'm in favor of putting Gligar at mid b-rank for every reason listed above. Even though some physical pokes like Azumarill and users of Ice Punch (Scrafty, Machamp, occasional Rhyperior, etc.) Can do a big number on it, it also has a slow U-turn to complement its superb physical bulk to bring in a partner safely against a slow bulky Pokemon who threatens, such as Slowbro and the like. Goes really great with friends like Umbreon and Snorlax.

 

[PTJon7]

I don't think Gligar deserves B-Rank. Firstly, Gligar is complete set up bait, running Taunt on it then forces it to lose Toxic or an attack, both of which are not optimal. And after getting Taunted itself the best thing it can realistically do is U-Turn out. Gligar can't do anything to special attackers, and the only thing it can do to Flying types is Toxic them. Even the most dominant fighting type in the tier Mienshao has a way to get around Gligar with HP Ice.

 

[Aecor]

I don't think Gligar deserves B-Rank. Firstly, Gligar is complete set up bait, running Taunt on it then forces it to lose Toxic or an attack, both of which are not optimal. And after getting Taunted itself the best thing it can realistically do is U-Turn out. Gligar can't do anything to special attackers, and the only thing it can do to Flying types is Toxic them. Even the most dominant fighting type in the tier Mienshao has a way to get around Gligar with HP Ice.

Even a bigger bummer is that is is a total momentum killer with no offensive presence. I am going with C Rank for reasons stated above.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Gligar is a powerful wall, its Earthquake actually doing decent damage for a pink blob bat, I support it for B rank because it can well a lot and a lot of physical attackers, is immune to poison, has taunt, can set up SR and also can U turn for momentum

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

If we're still going by the high-mid-low rank thing, can we all at least settle on B-Minus rank for Gligar? I wanna stop da violence :[

He's got his advantages at being an incredibly good physical wall who can handle the majority of physical attackers in the tier, setup rocks, synergize nicely with some of the tier's premier special walls, utilize U-Turn or even Taunt or Toxic for momentum/support purposes, and has decent recovery in Roost. It's just that he pretty much annihilates all momentum, and despite being a physical wall has trouble with almost every Pokemon with a water or Ice-type coverage move, physical attacker or otherwise (Ice Punch Machamp/Rhyperior/Scrafty/Golurk/Azumarill, HP Ice Mienshao/Cobalion/Virizion/Roserade, etc.) and can be rendered setup bait for Pokemon such as Mew and various other special setup sweepers.

BUT! It's easy to say Gligar's good in the hands of a player who knows how to play to its strengths and has good support in its teammates. Gligar does his job quite effectively and that's at least worthy of some merit.

B-Minus. Final Offer.

 

[akuto]

how about c+? IDT gligar should b e a b-rank mon in all honesty

 

[Aecor]

It's hard to set up both TR and sun and you need both for your moveset to work. Why did you bring in "toxic'd cofag"? And yeah it is pretty easy to have spikes+SR up in a match. The mixed set lets another team member finish up the job because it lures in it's checks/counters. Victini can run a +spatk nature because it doesnt miss the speed and it appreciates the power. I find it pretty humorous that you question me saying that victini is a good lure yet you say that it is later on in your post. Hazards help mixed victini out by weakening these walls so they can't keep switching out like you assume, and keep in mind that all of those walls don't appreciate Focus Blast, which is actually the standard. The metagame doesn't allow for slow, heavy hitters? Specs Chandelure, Banded Heracross, Specs Slowbro, Specs Kingdra, Nidoking/Queen, Machamp, Honchkrow say otherwise.

Let's look at these "problems" you have laid out for us.
-Susceptible to all hazards, ya I'll give you that one, the only way to migiate that is a spinner and wish support.
-Pursuit problems, by what? The pursuit users I listed aren't very common and are outsped save for houndoom, then it is a 50/50 chance that you'll get them with pursuit or not, then that leaves snorlax, which can't switch in so victini either gets one kill so your opponent can bring in snorlax or you see the RK coming and you switch out Victini.
Usually one hard counter depending on set, every S-Rank Pokemon has 1-Hard counter depending on the set (exaggerating)

Kingdra-Slowking
Mienshao-Cofag
Raikou-Camerupt, any bulky ground type when it is not carrying hp grass, with hp grass it is checked/countered by other things.
Snorlax-Defensive-Cobalion
Offensive-Gligar
Togekiss-Inner Focus Umbreon
Zapdos-see Raikou

It hits hard, it can run a few different sets, it can lure in checks to say hera and mienshao, be a great RKer, wallbreaker, the only thing hindering it is hazards.

Why I brought up Toxic'd Cofag is because a toxic's spin blocker is for sure going to go down with the constant switching. It isn't that hard to set up TR and Sun...it's the same as Nasty Room Cofag. Solar Beam + V-Create provides pretty average coverage, but the sheer power of a sun-boosted V-Create is what makes it deadly. Slap on +Atk Nature with "boosted" speed in TR and you have quite a threat. You're sacking at least 2 Pokemon.

Victini NEEDS the +Spe nature to do work against the multitudes of +Spe base 95's, such as Darmanitan and Houndoom. It also misses out on Mew, Shaymin, and Flygon. Losing those speed-ties are quite no bueno. If you're running a +Atk nature on a non-banded set, something is horribly wrong. Again, please run +Atk/SpA nature on your pokes and see how that goes.

I'm saying Victini is A rank because IT, an IT alone, cannot sweep through a meta. Yes, the special set is an EXCELLENT lure for Mienshao and Heracross to do work, and yes, the Banded set is a god-like Wall Breaker; however, that being said, Victini isn't going to be doing all the work itself. V-Create has a nasty drawback which makes it after 2 consecutive uses, any offensive Mon's can come in and halt it's rampage. The Special Sets are also easily walled. One must rely on Focus Blast to hit twice in a row WITH SR's still on the field to do work against the Special Walls of UU. It it nicknamed "Focus Miss" for a reason.

Pursuit trapping. You're telling me, that you will needlessly spam V-Create with an opposing Houndoom on the opponents team? It will pursuit trap you if you do it wrong. Hell, even with an Arcanine with Flash Fire, you would be weary to spam V-Create. Now, with a Poke such as, say Zapdos, it can run HP Grass + TBolt with great coverage. Victini does not have that sort of option. Non-choiced sets have a one time only surprise factor.

As for slow, heavy hitters, those sets lean towards a Stall based team. I'm sure the consensus will show that in general, Scarf is generally the best item to run on an appropriate Pokemon, such as Darmanitan and Victini. A Specs Chandelure will always losing to a Scarfed 'Lure 1v1. You will get into those situations. If you're looking for a wall breaker, by all means, go ahead. But the term "wall-breaker" already says a lot, does it not? It's meant to do one job. You want Utility for a Poke.

1 Hard counter as an exaggeration? I would love to see how you deal with Snorlax with a Special Victini. It will stall you out, or just flat out crunch/pursuit you to death.

One last argument I must return to, as for Hazards. Didn't you JUST say that Hazards are easy to keep on the field because of the the spin blockers? Why does that apply to one if they hold a Victini? And how many teams ACTUALLY utilize Wish Support on a non-stall team?

I'm not saying Victini is bad, don't get all bent out of shape, but without a doubt, it belongs in A. It doesn't have the utility per effectiveness for each set which really hurts Victini. It's flaws are about as many as it's pros, and because of that, it should remain A ranked.

 

[666lumberjack]

I think Galvantula should be B or perhaps even A ranked. A B-ranked Pokemon is defined as "properly filling a given offensive or defensive niche". I'd argue that Galvantula is an excellent example of a Pokemon that does exactly that. First of all, Compoundeyes Thunder is incredibly strong, easily outdamaging Zapdos' Thunderbolt while sporting a nifty 30% paralysis chance to discourage Pokemon like Virizion and Raikou from switching in. It also has the raw power to effortlessly OHKO Mienshao and a good chance to OHKO offensive Zapdos after SR. In addition, with just one layer of Spikes on the field, it OHKOs every bulky water in UU, with only specially defensive Empoleon having a 50% chance to live.

The good news doesn't end there either, as Bug Buzz OHKOs 0/4 Shaymin and Mew after SR 100% of the time and will also cleanly 2HKO Umbreon so long as there is 1 layer of hazards on the field. It's also generally a handy move to have for spamming if opposing ground-types are still alive, as it does well over half to Pokemon like Flygon looking to come in for free. Not only that, but thanks to its access to Giga Drain, Galvantula doesn't need to decide between HP Ice and HP Grass the way its fellow electric types do - and it gains the ability to heal off LO recoil out of the deal too. This makes it really tough to wall despite its mediocre 97 base SAtk - although it will never break Snorlax, its fellow electric-types don't exactly enjoy facing him either.

Galvantula is no slouch in the speed department either. While 108 base might not be quite as exceptional as Raikou's 115, it's still very good, outpacing popular Pokemon like Zapdos, Victini, Shaymin, Mew, Mienshao and Zoroark as well as anything slower and speed tying Virizion and Cobalion. Speaking of Cobalion, Thunder has a very good chance to OHKO offensive sets with just a single layer of spikes on the field.

Granted, its typing is a bit of a mixed bag. While the fighting resistance is pretty cool, Galvantula doesn't have the bulk to abuse it effectively, and annoying weaknesses to Fire and Rock don't do it any favours, particularly the nasty SR weakness. However, a neutrality to EQ does at least mean you can switch in on weak Earthquakes like Gligar's without instantly dying.

As for placement in A rank - I agree this is a lot more dubious, and I'd be happy with B-rank for sure, but I think that actually, Galvantula does "sweep a significant portion of the metagame", though as specified in A rank it does have some flaws, namely its SR weakness, fragility and inability to get past Snorlax. While it might seem crazy to label a Pokemon with just 97 base special attack and negligable bulk a wallbreaker, due to its fantastic offensive STABs, many stall teams actually struggle to find an answer to it. Umbreon and Togekiss, two common specially defensive Pokemon, are quite easily beaten with a little hazard support. Water types are wrecked by Thunder, and even defensive grasses struggle to take repeated hits from Bug Buzz, although SDef Roserade can't be reliably 2HKOd without a decent amount of hazard support. Bulky psychics can't take Bug Buzz, Gligar is mauled by HP Ice, Swampert by Giga Drain (SDef Rhyperior must be weakened, admittedly, but it walls the other two too...). This isn't to say it rolls through stall all by itself - there are of course Pokemon it can't beat - but if you give it a try, you'll likely be suprised by just how well it matches up against many common Pokemon - I know I was. It's far from useless against offense either, scoring one- or two-hit KOs on a lot of offensive Pokemon with minimal hazard support. I've included asome calcs below to demonstrate this:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 278-329 (97.88 - 115.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Cobalion: 304-359 (93.82 - 110.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 274-324 (84.56 - 100%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 84-99 (25.92 - 30.55%)
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 133-156 (41.04 - 48.14%) -- you easily 2HKO Virizion if it is paralyzed switching in, although you must watch out for Stone Edge - HP Ice also always 2HKOs if you have SR and one layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 313-370 (115.49 - 136.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin/Mew: 312-369 (91.49 - 108.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 68 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 227-269 (81.65 - 96.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 208-246 (60.99 - 72.14%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 227-269 (70.49 - 83.54%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra: 218-257 (74.91 - 88.31%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 333-394 (94.87 - 112.25%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 218-257 (72.42 - 85.38%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 176 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 499-588 (140.56 - 165.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 390-463 (129.56 - 153.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 499-588 (124.12 - 146.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinccino: 313-370 (107.56 - 127.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 199-235 (58.01 - 68.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 252-299 (73.68 - 87.42%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 185-218 (68.26 - 80.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 136-161 (40.71 - 48.2%) -- 68.75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Apologies for the huge block of calcs, but hopefully this should illustrate Galvantula's ability to smash through many common offensive Pokemon without much trouble give a little hazard support. Many of these Pokemon are also outrun, which allows Galvantula to sweep clean through them. Of course, Thunder's 91% accuracy might cut an attempted sweep short, but at least it doesn't half-kill the bug upon missing!

Like I said, I can see arguments for and against A tier, but Galvantula certainly doesn't belong in C. It's a good example of a Pokemon who outshines its constituent parts with exceptional offensive STAB and superior coverage to common electric-typed rivals. Speaking of electric-typed rivals, the electric spider is a fantastic partner for many of them, as it isn't forced to choose between Ice and Grass coverage and can therefore muscle through most of their checks without much trouble. Even CBlax is likely taking 70-80% from two Thunders, which will leave it far too weak to take on something like SubCM Raikou later in the match. Hell, with Stealth Rock and two layers of Spikes, 80/176 Snorlax actually has a good chance to be 2HKOd by Galvantula!

This pokemon is really, really fucking good people and you should use it a LOT more, it's a pain in the ass to face.

 

[PTJon7]

Yea I second moving Galvantula to B Rank, it's high speed and decent power make it a decently potent threat in UU. If Cincinno and Druddigon are both B-Rank worthy, I'd say Galv is too.

 

[Trainer Au]

Why I brought up Toxic'd Cofag is because a toxic's spin blocker is for sure going to go down with the constant switching. It isn't that hard to set up TR and Sun...it's the same as Nasty Room Cofag. Solar Beam + V-Create provides pretty average coverage, but the sheer power of a sun-boosted V-Create is what makes it deadly. Slap on +Atk Nature with "boosted" speed in TR and you have quite a threat. You're sacking at least 2 Pokemon.

Victini NEEDS the +Spe nature to do work against the multitudes of +Spe base 95's, such as Darmanitan and Houndoom. It also misses out on Mew, Shaymin, and Flygon. Losing those speed-ties are quite no bueno. If you're running a +Atk nature on a non-banded set, something is horribly wrong. Again, please run +Atk/SpA nature on your pokes and see how that goes.

I'm saying Victini is A rank because IT, an IT alone, cannot sweep through a meta. Yes, the special set is an EXCELLENT lure for Mienshao and Heracross to do work, and yes, the Banded set is a god-like Wall Breaker; however, that being said, Victini isn't going to be doing all the work itself. V-Create has a nasty drawback which makes it after 2 consecutive uses, any offensive Mon's can come in and halt it's rampage. The Special Sets are also easily walled. One must rely on Focus Blast to hit twice in a row WITH SR's still on the field to do work against the Special Walls of UU. It it nicknamed "Focus Miss" for a reason.

Pursuit trapping. You're telling me, that you will needlessly spam V-Create with an opposing Houndoom on the opponents team? It will pursuit trap you if you do it wrong. Hell, even with an Arcanine with Flash Fire, you would be weary to spam V-Create. Now, with a Poke such as, say Zapdos, it can run HP Grass + TBolt with great coverage. Victini does not have that sort of option. Non-choiced sets have a one time only surprise factor.

As for slow, heavy hitters, those sets lean towards a Stall based team. I'm sure the consensus will show that in general, Scarf is generally the best item to run on an appropriate Pokemon, such as Darmanitan and Victini. A Specs Chandelure will always losing to a Scarfed 'Lure 1v1. You will get into those situations. If you're looking for a wall breaker, by all means, go ahead. But the term "wall-breaker" already says a lot, does it not? It's meant to do one job. You want Utility for a Poke.

1 Hard counter as an exaggeration? I would love to see how you deal with Snorlax with a Special Victini. It will stall you out, or just flat out crunch/pursuit you to death.

One last argument I must return to, as for Hazards. Didn't you JUST say that Hazards are easy to keep on the field because of the the spin blockers? Why does that apply to one if they hold a Victini? And how many teams ACTUALLY utilize Wish Support on a non-stall team?

I'm not saying Victini is bad, don't get all bent out of shape, but without a doubt, it belongs in A. It doesn't have the utility per effectiveness for each set which really hurts Victini. It's flaws are about as many as it's pros, and because of that, it should remain A ranked.

Not again...

Cofag has the bulk to set up both things, and even if it doesn't it's still a problem. Victini is weak to SR, so it may be already weakened, if you choose to set up TR, you can't use solarbeam, if you choose Sun then you're slow, please drop this.

You don't have to risk speed ties, and most Darm's are CS anyway, and even if they aren't you're going to switch to, and why would you bring a Darm into Victini? If it's scarfed you lose if it locks itself into anything besides V-Create, and if it does choose V-Create you take a crap ton of damage and you may take rocks damage. Yes Darm can potentially RK victini, but it needs a safe switch to do so. | 56 | Houndoom | 3.80721% | as you can see it isn't the most common pokemon, and when the houndoom user sees Victini isn't choiced he/she is going to be careful on he/she's choice to pursuit or sucker punch. What the hell is Mew going to do to a Victini? Shadow Ball? Sucker Punch? Shaymin is not being brought in on a Victini, ever, since there is no way to tell if you are +spe or not, unless you run calcs or Victini is outsped by something it normally shouldn't be (which isn't very many things even when not +spe), and then if this does happen, Vicitni is possibly dead anyways, Flygon is usually CS, if not then it may not run max speed (mixed).

And btw I lot of mons run +atk/spatk natures.

Victini can sweep all by itself through a meta, potentially, haven't you heard of this awesome set where Victini uses Sun AND TR? It's almost as good as sliced bread. Almost.

THE SPECIAL SETS ARE EASILY WALLED?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Victini has great coverage, have you ever played UU?

The surprise factor is one thing, but it doesn't get easier to switch into, Victini has great coverage.

Slow heavy hitter do not lean towards a stall team...for example:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480475 does that look like stall to you?

I'll teach you how Special Victini deals with snorlax, if I see lefties, I switch, if I don't, I 2HKO with Focus "Miss" factoring in SR (you forgot about Victory Star, gee, isn't Victini amazing?).

How many teams utilize Wish Support on a non-stall team? A lot, you forgot about Umbreon.

9 | Umbreon | 13.42006% |

 

[Aecor]

I am for Galv being moved to B rank. It is quite a threatening electric type. It's secondary STAB in Bug Buzz makes it quite good, taking care of Bulky seeding Shaymin's...something that other Electric types would kill for. As for Giga-drain, this is what seals the deal for me. Like the OP said, it doesn't have to choose between being walled by Gligar or Swampert, but rather take them both head on. In the hands of the right player, it can be quite a deadly foe.

A is something it isn't quite, but B is just right.

 

[silenced]

Would certainly agree with galvantula in B-Rank. One other thing I would like to add however is that for best usage of it, you would need to be running some slow volt-turn support to get it in safely, or to be willing to sacrifice pokemon to get it in safely, both of which are some strain to team support at times.

 

[Aecor]

Not again...

Cofag has the bulk to set up both things, and even if it doesn't it's still a problem. Victini is weak to SR, so it may be already weakened, if you choose to set up TR, you can't use solarbeam, if you choose Sun then you're slow, please drop this.

You don't have to risk speed ties, and most Darm's are CS anyway, and even if they aren't you're going to switch to, and why would you bring a Darm into Victini? If it's scarfed you lose if it locks itself into anything besides V-Create, and if it does choose V-Create you take a crap ton of damage and you may take rocks damage. Yes Darm can potentially RK victini, but it needs a safe switch to do so. | 56 | Houndoom | 3.80721% | as you can see it isn't the most common pokemon, and when the houndoom user sees Victini isn't choiced he/she is going to be careful on he/she's choice to pursuit or sucker punch. What the hell is Mew going to do to a Victini? Shadow Ball? Sucker Punch? Shaymin is not being brought in on a Victini, ever, since there is no way to tell if you are +spe or not, unless you run calcs or Victini is outsped by something it normally shouldn't be (which isn't very many things even when not +spe), and then if this does happen, Vicitni is possibly dead anyways, Flygon is usually CS, if not then it may not run max speed (mixed).

And btw I lot of mons run +atk/spatk natures.

Victini can sweep all by itself through a meta, potentially, haven't you heard of this awesome set where Victini uses Sun AND TR? It's almost as good as sliced bread. Almost.

THE SPECIAL SETS ARE EASILY WALLED?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Victini has great coverage, have you ever played UU?

The surprise factor is one thing, but it doesn't get easier to switch into, Victini has great coverage.

Slow heavy hitter do not lean towards a stall team...for example:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480475 does that look like stall to you?

I'll teach you how Special Victini deals with snorlax, if I see lefties, I switch, if I don't, I 2HKO with Focus "Miss" factoring in SR (you forgot about Victory Star, gee, isn't Victini amazing?).

How many teams utilize Wish Support on a non-stall team? A lot, you forgot about Umbreon.

9 | Umbreon | 13.42006% |

Trainer AU, first, you need to stop with your sarcastic and hostile tone--it's a game; people have different opinions. We are all different pencils in the same bag. Put on your big girl panties and let's accept and move on.

Cofag's HP stat is what nullifies it's amazing bulk...something Victini doesn't have to worry about. I'd argue, on average, univested 100/100/100 is better than the standard Nasty Room Cofag bulk investment.

Scarfed V-Create from Victini is a 2HK on Darm. Most Darms are Scarfed, yes, but quite a few are also Life Orb and the such...that's like saying all Heracross's (Grammar check...not sure) are scarfed. Victini can force out Darm because Darm doesn't have the bulk, and when you lose your bulky water, sometimes fighting fire with fire is the way to go.

You can't argue that percentage dictates correctness...just because something isn't used as often doesn't make it negligible to the point where one would disregard. PLEASE, PLEASE explain to me how the WHOLE world believed the world was flat, and how wrong they were. That is a near 100%...an almost unanimous vote that the world was flat, but that didn't dictate anything for correctness, no?

Shaymin can come into Victini, in fact, many Shaymin's will take advantage of the locked Zen-Headbutt or Bolt Strike. With a bulky water (which many teams have), that is no issue once the player skill level is established. Honk also has sucker punch and pursuit...the deal with pursuit is, many of the pokes have SP which creates Mind Games. Victini being weak to it is no bueno.

And yes, the special sets are easily walled. If you are talking about the choice locked walls, no. Special Victini will poop on Rhyperior and Swampert; however, Snorlax will have a FIELD day with Victini, whether it be banded or the standard rest talk set.

Again, you're seeing as Victini as a lure. What can Victini due to Umbreon if it were special? You must see it as a 1v1 scenario. Umb can stall out Victini and foul-play it until the cows come home. As I've stated, yes, Victini is an EXCELLENT lure and great as a wall breaker, but it lacks the utility that an S ranked pokemon should have. For example, Kingdra can hit hard from either side, and it's neigh impossible to tell what the set is before seeing a move. Snorlax can be a defensive pivot--even when using an offensive set. Agility Zapdos is a pretty good check to Heracross, stalling it out of stone edges then firing off Modest Life Orb Thunderbolts.


I'm not saying Victini is terrible, it's one of the better pokemon without a doubt...however, does it stack up against the other S ranks? In my opinion, certainly not. I do, however, believe that Victini is definitely befitting into A, fitting right in like the last piece to a puzzle. I'm not knocking you for getting a hard on for Victini, I'm just saying it doesn't have the proper tools to be S ranked.

PS: +SpA natures are garbage unless you're specs. Please run a choice banded Mienshao with Adamant. kthx

 

[Aecor]

Trainer AU, first, you need to stop with your sarcastic and hostile tone--it's a game; people have different opinions. We are all different pencils in the same bag. Put on your big girl panties and let's accept and move on.

Cofag's HP stat is what nullifies it's amazing bulk...something Victini doesn't have to worry about. I'd argue, on average, univested 100/100/100 is better than the standard Nasty Room Cofag bulk investment.

Scarfed V-Create from Victini is a 2HK on Darm. Most Darms are Scarfed, yes, but quite a few are also Life Orb and the such...that's like saying all Heracross's (Grammar check...not sure) are scarfed. Victini can force out Darm because Darm doesn't have the bulk, and when you lose your bulky water, sometimes fighting fire with fire is the way to go.

You can't argue that percentage dictates correctness...just because something isn't used as often doesn't make it negligible to the point where one would disregard. PLEASE, PLEASE explain to me how the WHOLE world believed the world was flat, and how wrong they were. That is a near 100%...an almost unanimous vote that the world was flat, but that didn't dictate anything for correctness, no?

Shaymin can come into Victini, in fact, many Shaymin's will take advantage of the locked Zen-Headbutt or Bolt Strike. With a bulky water (which many teams have), that is no issue once the player skill level is established. Honk also has sucker punch and pursuit...the deal with pursuit is, many of the pokes have SP which creates Mind Games. Victini being weak to it is no bueno.

And yes, the special sets are easily walled. If you are talking about the choice locked walls, no. Special Victini will poop on Rhyperior and Swampert; however, Snorlax will have a FIELD day with Victini, whether it be banded or the standard rest talk set.

Again, you're seeing as Victini as a lure. What can Victini due to Umbreon if it were special? You must see it as a 1v1 scenario. Umb can stall out Victini and foul-play it until the cows come home. As I've stated, yes, Victini is an EXCELLENT lure and great as a wall breaker, but it lacks the utility that an S ranked pokemon should have. For example, Kingdra can hit hard from either side, and it's neigh impossible to tell what the set is before seeing a move. Snorlax can be a defensive pivot--even when using an offensive set. Agility Zapdos is a pretty good check to Heracross, stalling it out of stone edges then firing off Modest Life Orb Thunderbolts.


I'm not saying Victini is terrible, it's one of the better pokemon without a doubt...however, does it stack up against the other S ranks? In my opinion, certainly not. I do, however, believe that Victini is definitely befitting into A, fitting right in like the last piece to a puzzle. I'm not knocking you for getting a hard on for Victini, I'm just saying it doesn't have the proper tools to be S ranked.

PS: +SpA natures are garbage unless you're specs or a tank. Please run a choice banded Mienshao with Adamant and see how you fare against the many other heavy hitters :]

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I could agree with Galvantula for B. It's pretty difficult to wall and hits decently hard. Snorlax is its only hard counter.

Anyways, posted this some time earlier but I will repeat this nomination:

Accelgor and Scolipede deserve to be in the C-Rank. Both are great at spiking thanks to their admirable speed tiers, and they can do the job pretty well. They receive stiff competition from Froslass, however, their solid offensive prowess makes them worth the use if that is needed. The two are both great offensive Pokemon as well, and Scolipede can run an SD set while Accelgor an All-Out Attacker, and the two have solid coverage with their power to put some dents into teams, despite some competition. Overall, I think they're both decent assets to offensive teams, and they do have competition in their roles, but they deserve to be at least C-Rank.

So yeah, Accelgor and Scolipede for C-Rank.

I'm going to bring back up someone else's post of adding Crustle to C-Rank. It's a very capable hazards lead with a Custap Berry and it can set up Spikes AND Stealth Rock, which Froslass and Scolipede can only dream of doing. It's a mini Deoxys-D in a way, so it can be an excellent lead for offensive teams. It has competition from Froslass, but I think Crustle is very worthy of C-Rank.

Victini should stay S-Rank because it's a versatile offensive threat that is difficult to wall outside of Snorlax. And Snorlax walls the hell out of every special attacker, so fuck Snorlax. I'd say Victini should stay in S-Rank, albeit a low S.

 

[PTJon7]

I don't know if Scolipede has a significant niche enough to be worth adding, but I think Accelgor and Crustle are worth adding to C-Rank.

I honestly don't think mentioning Snorlax walling something as a short coming is really that significant/worth mentioning, its a given that any special attacker is walled by it.

 

[Trainer Au]

PS: +SpA natures are garbage unless you're specs. Please run a choice banded Mienshao with Adamant. kthx

I've said everything that I can say, imo we're just going around in circles at this point, but this urks me, you always pull this card.

Mienshao needs the speed that jolly provides, Victini does not (talking about the mixed set here). Not only is the extra speed not certainly needed, Victini appreciates the boost in power it gets with Mild.

Here is a list of all the things that Victini fails to outspeed when not +Spe.
322 / Sigilyph / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
317 / Arcanine, Electivire, Sharpedo, Yanmega, Houndoom, Drapion, Sawsbuck / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
311 / Krookodile / 92 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
309 / Rotom / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
306 / Roserade, Venomoth, Lilligant, Moltres, Porygon-Z,

Sigilyph-Irrelevant.
Arcanine-Most of the time they're Adamant.
E-vire-Kind of irrelevant, will be fearing +spe and won't come in anyways.
Sharpedo-Always adamant, irrelevant because of protect.
Yanmega-see sharpedo.
Houndoom-Dies to sucker punch and dies to pursuit, +spe isn't really needed here. No +spe actually helps it here since the opp may think you will stay in because you are naturally faster, I can't determine how other people think but it's a possibility.
Drapion-Kind of Irrelevant, mainly a suicide lead and will be fearing the +Spe nature anyways.
Sawsbuck-Kind of Irrelevant. Will be fearing +Spe and will probably come in when sun is up so you're outsped anyways.
Krookodile-Always scarfed.
Rotom-+spe won't help in this situation.
Roserade-doesn't always run max speed. Doesn't always run +spe nature.
Venomoth-Likely a lead, (probably won't lead with mixtini). Has a sash anyways.
Liligant-Not seen all that much, won't come in fearing +spe.
Moltres-+spe won't help in this situation.
P-Z-A lot of them are scarfed, +spe isn't always ran. This may be one of the times where victini wants +spe.

I left out all the speed tie shit because speed tie.

As you can see, Victini isn't hindered by not running +spe. Now please, stop.

 

[Aecor]

I've said everything that I can say, imo we're just going around in circles at this point, but this urks me, you always pull this card.

Mienshao needs the speed that jolly provides, Victini does not (talking about the mixed set here). Not only is the extra speed not certainly needed, Victini appreciates the boost in power it gets with Mild.

Here is a list of all the things that Victini fails to outspeed when not +Spe.
322 / Sigilyph / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
317 / Arcanine, Electivire, Sharpedo, Yanmega, Houndoom, Drapion, Sawsbuck / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
311 / Krookodile / 92 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
309 / Rotom / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0 / 31
306 / Roserade, Venomoth, Lilligant, Moltres, Porygon-Z,

Sigilyph-Irrelevant.
Arcanine-Most of the time they're Adamant.
E-vire-Kind of irrelevant, will be fearing +spe and won't come in anyways.
Sharpedo-Always adamant, irrelevant because of protect.
Yanmega-see sharpedo.
Houndoom-Dies to sucker punch and dies to pursuit, +spe isn't really needed here. No +spe actually helps it here since the opp may think you will stay in because you are naturally faster, I can't determine how other people think but it's a possibility.
Drapion-Kind of Irrelevant, mainly a suicide lead and will be fearing the +Spe nature anyways.
Sawsbuck-Kind of Irrelevant. Will be fearing +Spe and will probably come in when sun is up so you're outsped anyways.
Krookodile-Always scarfed.
Rotom-+spe won't help in this situation.
Roserade-doesn't always run max speed. Doesn't always run +spe nature.
Venomoth-Likely a lead, (probably won't lead with mixtini). Has a sash anyways.
Liligant-Not seen all that much, won't come in fearing +spe.
Moltres-+spe won't help in this situation.
P-Z-A lot of them are scarfed, +spe isn't always ran. This may be one of the times where victini wants +spe.

I left out all the speed tie shit because speed tie.

As you can see, Victini isn't hindered by not running +spe. Now please, stop.

I'm sorry, I didn't know what urks was until I realized you meant "Irk," so please pardon if I write in an easier fashion to understand since your English may not be up to par.

What Pokemon doesn't appreciate a power boost? Let me break it down for you, if you had to work for 5 hours and make 50 bucks, or work 5 hours and make 55 dollars--doing the SAME thing, what would you take? I think I rest my case here.

Victini needs DAT SPEED BOOST, HELLO (yes, I'm pulling a Shofu). Mild isn't even listed in the suggestions on the Smogon page for Victini. Base 100 is such a sensitive speed tier, it is more oft than not (or to make it easier to understand, more probable. Maybe words such "higher chance" or "more likely" may make it easier for you) the difference between killing and being killed. LOOK AT VICTINI, WHO ON EARTH WOULD WANT THAT CUTE LITTLE BUGGER TO DIE? You need to run +Spe to jump the gun on other Pokes and to speed tie with opposing +Spe 100 Pokes. A LO Shaymin with LO will decimate a Mild Victini. Hell, even a sub-seeder will do work. And how the hell does Mienshao NEED the speed and Victini not?

I can not tell you how many times I let PS choose my EV's because I'm being a dumb panzee, and I lose out to jolly-scarfed Darm because I ran a Scarfed-Adamant Victini. Victini, needs that speed. Special Victini, needs that speed. If you're looking for power, you're going about the wrong set.

 

[Trainer Au]

I'm sorry, I didn't know what urks was until I realized you meant "Irk," so please pardon if I write in an easier fashion to understand since your English may not be up to par.

What Pokemon doesn't appreciate a power boost? Let me break it down for you, if you had to work for 5 hours and make 50 bucks, or work 5 hours and make 55 dollars--doing the SAME thing, what would you take? I think I rest my case here.

Victini needs DAT SPEED BOOST, HELLO (yes, I'm pulling a Shofu). Mild isn't even listed in the suggestions on the Smogon page for Victini. Base 100 is such a sensitive speed tier, it is more oft than not (or to make it easier to understand, more probable. Maybe words such "higher chance" or "more likely" may make it easier for you) the difference between killing and being killed. LOOK AT VICTINI, WHO ON EARTH WOULD WANT THAT CUTE LITTLE BUGGER TO DIE? You need to run +Spe to jump the gun on other Pokes and to speed tie with opposing +Spe 100 Pokes. A LO Shaymin with LO will decimate a Mild Victini. Hell, even a sub-seeder will do work. And how the hell does Mienshao NEED the speed and Victini not?

I can not tell you how many times I let PS choose my EV's because I'm being a dumb panzee, and I lose out to jolly-scarfed Darm because I ran a Scarfed-Adamant Victini. Victini, needs that speed. Special Victini, needs that speed. If you're looking for power, you're going about the wrong set.

I find it HILARIOUS how now you're making fun of me when just a while ago you were all "pls sir stahp with ur tone it's hurtin meh feels ;_; ;_;", and now you're questioning my english because I wrote "urks" instead of "irk"? Do they really have much of a difference? What else would "urks" be if it weren't "irks"?

Just because something isn't listed on smogon does not mean it isn't viable.....

And as I've just shown you Victini isn't really hindered by no +spe nature.

Mienshao needs the +spe to outspeed all the base 100's that run +spe. And don't compare running +spe on CS victini to +spe on mixtini.

 

[Bassmaster4]

Trainer Au- Whenever I run Victini, or any other base 100 for that matter, I always run Jolly. Sure, your argument above shows that Victini doesn't guarantee it outspeeds anything too important, but you have to remember the tier he's in. Off the top of my head, Shaymin, Mew, Flygon, and Zapdos are all in the same tier with it. Four very common threats that it It will lose to if they have a +Spe nature. Outspeeding things and killing them first is key with Victini , for every time it uses V-Create (i'm assuming physical because it's the most common), it has to switch out. In a tier where the spinners are shit and Stealth Rocks are abundant, this spells death for Victini. Unless you're banded/specs, the power increase isn't needed to break walls and whatever else you like to do with your Victini. That being said, you can use whatever you want, and I will use whatever I want, and we'll all be happy.

 

[Manectrifier]

Firstly I agree with Accelgor being C-rank. With Yawn it is an effective lead, can almost always set up 2 layers of spikes, which is invaluable in UU. It's speed and Yawn make it stand out when comparing it to other spikers, so I think it deserves C-rank. I can't say too much about Scolipede though because I have never used it.

However, I suggest moving down Qwilfish to C-rank, because while it is an unique spiker, it has trouble getting spikes up because of its low defenses (65/75/55 is really underwhelming, even when invested), and it is easily beaten with almost any special attack. It has two hard counters in Roserade and Shaymin who don't mind a thunder wave and can easily KO. Because it can only stand a handful of special attacks, it is forced out often (and it also wants to switch around a lot abusing intimidate), and it will take a lot of damage from entry hazards and the attacks it is supposed to take. For example a few attacks it has to take:

-1 252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 75-89 (22.45 - 26.64%)
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 111-132 (33.23 - 39.52%)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 107-127 (32.03 - 38.02%)

These are all even without hazards taken into account. After taking an attack and hazards damage, Qwilfish doesn't have time for hazards laying himself, as it should worry about what the opponent is going to switch in. Assuming the opponent has a decent special attacker left, Qwilfish is going to be limited to 1 layer of spikes only, while hazards laying was its only advantage over the other bulky waters of UU, which all have way better defensive stats.

 

[sickweare]

I think you are missing the fact that Qwilfish checks a ton of threats in UU, including the three you listed. In fact, that calc with Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick is further increasing its viability imo. The fact that it can shut down physical attackers a lot of the time, such as Heracross and Mienshao, is only compounded with the fact that it has a great typing, and access to a lot of good support moves. It is also a very good lead with Spikes and offers its better defensive capabilities over the other spikers.

 

[Trainer Au]

Trainer Au- Whenever I run Victini, or any other base 100 for that matter, I always run Jolly. Sure, your argument above shows that Victini doesn't guarantee it outspeeds anything too important, but you have to remember the tier he's in. Off the top of my head, Shaymin, Mew, Flygon, and Zapdos are all in the same tier with it. Four very common threats that it It will lose to if they have a +Spe nature. Outspeeding things and killing them first is key with Victini , for every time it uses V-Create (i'm assuming physical because it's the most common), it has to switch out. In a tier where the spinners are shit and Stealth Rocks are abundant, this spells death for Victini. Unless you're banded/specs, the power increase isn't needed to break walls and whatever else you like to do with your Victini. That being said, you can use whatever you want, and I will use whatever I want, and we'll all be happy.

Remember I was talking about the mixed set.

Shaymin-Won't be brought into a Victini.
Mew-The common stall-breaker set can't do much to Victini, the SD set can threaten with Sucker Punch and the NP set Shadow Ball, so I guess thats a point.
Flygon-Mostly scarfed, Victini winning the speed tie here wouldn't help it UNLESS flygon was really weak and in psychic's ko range.
Zapdos-May not run max speed (defensive/spdef), and winning the speed tie here won't help Victini unless Zapdos is really weak and in Blue Flare/V-Creates KO range.

You then proceed to say:

Outspeeding things and killing them first is key with Victini , for every time it uses V-Create (i'm assuming physical because it's the most common), it has to switch out.

And I have already shown it isn't imperative for Mixtini to run +spe. As for the "I'm assuming physical" part, that's irrelevant, my above post with the big long list of mons it fails to outspeed when not +spe was talking about the mixed set.

V-Create is not the spammable move when using the mixed set, (not spammable in any set) you use your awesome coverage options.

The power increase is very much appreciated with the mixed set.

Here are some calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 221-260 (47.93 - 56.39%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 242-286 (52.49 - 62.03%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.59%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 165-196 (49.4 - 58.68%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cofagrigus: 153-181 (47.96 - 56.73%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cofagrigus: 165-196 (51.72 - 61.44%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO

And with some hazards:

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Slowking: 135-161 (34.35 - 40.96%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Slowking: 148-177 (37.65 - 45.03%) -- 67.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Victini is a giant threat that has its short comings, but its benefits outweigh them enough for it to be Low S-Rank.

 

[Aecor]

Remember I was talking about the mixed set.

Shaymin-Won't be brought into a Victini.
Mew-The common stall-breaker set can't do much to Victini, the SD set can threaten with Sucker Punch and the NP set Shadow Ball, so I guess thats a point.
Flygon-Mostly scarfed, Victini winning the speed tie here wouldn't help it UNLESS flygon was really weak and in psychic's ko range.
Zapdos-May not run max speed (defensive/spdef), and winning the speed tie here won't help Victini unless Zapdos is really weak and in Blue Flare/V-Creates KO range.

You then proceed to say:

And I have already shown it isn't imperative for Mixtini to run +spe. As for the "I'm assuming physical" part, that's irrelevant, my above post with the big long list of mons it fails to outspeed when not +spe was talking about the mixed set.

V-Create is not the spammable move when using the mixed set, (not spammable in any set) you use your awesome coverage options.

The power increase is very much appreciated with the mixed set.

Here are some calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 221-260 (47.93 - 56.39%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 242-286 (52.49 - 62.03%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.59%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 165-196 (49.4 - 58.68%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cofagrigus: 153-181 (47.96 - 56.73%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cofagrigus: 165-196 (51.72 - 61.44%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO

And with some hazards:

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Slowking: 135-161 (34.35 - 40.96%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252+ SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Slowking: 148-177 (37.65 - 45.03%) -- 67.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Victini is a giant threat that has its short comings, but its benefits outweigh them enough for it to be Low S-Rank.

No solid way to boost its stats along with the fact that it doesn't have any one amazing bast stat to work with makes it for the lack of (for example, Zapdos have 125SpA makes it OK to run an Agility Set) makes it an A ranked Poke.

With the other person saying the speed tier is crucial, I agree with him completely. He's right, the speed tier is certain. The offensive variants of Shaymin, Mew, and Zapdos need to speed tie with opposing Victini so they don't lose out 100% of the time. You're saying Shaymin will NEVER switch into Victini? It doesn't have to be INTO Victini, but rather vice-versa. If Victini switches into Shaymin to take the predicted Seed-Flare/Giga Drain/Leaf Storm as a pivot-switch, and it's one of the only pokes that can retaliate, being Timid/Jolly is imperative towards victory.

It's only slightly above speed tier, weakness to hazards in a Meta where Spinblockers are actually good, need for +Spe Nature, and nasty draw-backs from its main set causes Victini to remain A rank.

More needs not be said. Your worthless argument of Mienshao need Jolly to outpace +100, what if ALL of the 100s were to do +Spa/Atk Nature because they "appreciate the extra damage output," would Mienshao be "forced" to run Jolly? I don't think so.

 

[Manectrifier]

I think you are missing the fact that Qwilfish checks a ton of threats in UU, including the three you listed. In fact, that calc with Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick is further increasing its viability imo. The fact that it can shut down physical attackers a lot of the time, such as Heracross and Mienshao, is only compounded with the fact that it has a great typing, and access to a lot of good support moves. It is also a very good lead with Spikes and offers its better defensive capabilities over the other spikers.

Except when it's a lead with a good matchup, Qwilfish has a very hard time getting spikes up as it is going to get worn down very quickly. If we say for example he switches into a Darmanitan's Flare Blitz with SR on the field, then after that Darmanitan switches out with U-turn.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 107-127 (32.03 - 38.02%)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 32-38 (9.58 - 11.37%)
Qwilfish is going to take 54.11 to 61.89% damage from that, meaning its dead after two switch-ins already, meaning it can only get 1 layer of spikes down. Adding to that it can't do much to the two most common rapid spinners in the tier, and most physical attackers carry a physical coverage move that can KO Qwilfish after the initial hit (for example Darmanitan's Earthquake, Heracross's Earthquake, Arcanine's Wild Charge), which means in that case it can't get any hazards down at all.

And when it can't get hazards down, it is outclassed by the other bulky waters of UU, who have higher defensive stats, reliable recovery (some) and a better water-type move in Scald.

As a lead, I agree with you that it can be good, provided that it has a good matchup (no specs zapdos :))