Treecko is Monster Group / Dragon Group & can't breed with Seedot
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Resource ADV Beginner's Lounge - Rules/FAQ, Resources, Question & Answer
- Thread starter vapicuno
- Start date
Oh, then it probably got those moves from Smeargle then (Field Group).
clever
Hey everyone, been struggling to find a comprehensive post/thread regarding about mons tier class and no I am not talking about VR I am talking about pokemons that has roles in each game.
Leads
Supports/clerics
Backbones/tanks/pivot
Early game mons
Mid game
Late game scenario mons
The reason behind this is that I stumbled upon "Gambler Keegan's" video on youtube on talking about how to manuever early game mid game and up until late game. If by any chance you know something about a related thread/post I really dont mind if its an old thread as long as its informational. Cheers!
Leads
Supports/clerics
Backbones/tanks/pivot
Early game mons
Mid game
Late game scenario mons
The reason behind this is that I stumbled upon "Gambler Keegan's" video on youtube on talking about how to manuever early game mid game and up until late game. If by any chance you know something about a related thread/post I really dont mind if its an old thread as long as its informational. Cheers!
Hi IllidanStr, is this what you are looking for? https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-teambuilding-compendium.3605392/
It doesn't talk about when mons should be used, but does show the different roles that pokemon are good in.
Edit: this is only tangentially related, but I also found the two guides by vapicuno on this post to be really interesting https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...pes-and-cores-a-data-driven-approach.3654874/
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Hello IronOat, thank you so much for the response. I have been searching for threads that really relates to my question but have come up with the same conclusion in which Mudkip's teambuilding compendium is the closest thing we can get and as wells as Vapicuno's Archetype thread. I must say Mudkip's teambuilding compendium really helps my laddering ascent even though it is just a brief summary it did really further my understanding on individual roles of mons thay I face. On the other hand Vapicuno's thread really summarizes team composition and gameplay as is that almost some pokemon teams are slowly becoming predictable due to the Archetype system.
Hi IronOat, I remembered this post that was provided by Vapanicuno on this thread on "Page 1" specifically from Mdragon in which he talks about teams through the ages i which a lot of Archetypes and insights as well on how the teams were played.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-teams-through-the-ages.3687203/
Additional note
Similar find about your question. Bunch of sample teams with introductions
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-secret-santa-2021.3695225/
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I hear all the time about how TSS is one of the best archetypes but I can't seem to figure out how to make it work. I was playing for a long time with the Starmie TSS sample team and really struggling to stay above 1200 ELO. Then I switched to a special offense/CM BP team and pretty much immediately jumped up to the 1400's.
I think one of the primary things that has made it easier for me is that with my new team I have an understanding of what I need to do to win. I need to identify threats like Aero/Lax/Bliss, get rid of them, boost up and storm through the rest of their team with Celebi or one of the other special attackers. With that in mind I often find myself thinking things like "Okay I can hit Snorlax with one thunderbolt from Zapdos and one Psychic from Jirachi sacrificing them both but then Dugtrio can kill it and I still have a chance". Other than generally "switch around to reduce damage taken while spreading toxic and getting small bits of chip when I can" I feel like I never had a gameplan when playing the TSS team.
I guess I'm sort of wondering when playing TSS what are people looking for in terms of late-game strategy. And then also, how do you recover from being behind. With my new team I feel like 4 v 4 and 6 v 6 feel pretty similar but the TSS team it always felt like a "trade" was never worth it (maybe with the exception of a Gengar boom). But then that led me to be too cautious, basically switch out whenever I didn't think I could force them out, and I'd give my opponent a lot of chances to double switch, make a prediction with a coverage move, or otherwise slowly whittle me down back.
I also don't know if this is just a low ladder problem and the benefits of TSS only come into play when you're playing as/against people better than I am.
I think one of the primary things that has made it easier for me is that with my new team I have an understanding of what I need to do to win. I need to identify threats like Aero/Lax/Bliss, get rid of them, boost up and storm through the rest of their team with Celebi or one of the other special attackers. With that in mind I often find myself thinking things like "Okay I can hit Snorlax with one thunderbolt from Zapdos and one Psychic from Jirachi sacrificing them both but then Dugtrio can kill it and I still have a chance". Other than generally "switch around to reduce damage taken while spreading toxic and getting small bits of chip when I can" I feel like I never had a gameplan when playing the TSS team.
I guess I'm sort of wondering when playing TSS what are people looking for in terms of late-game strategy. And then also, how do you recover from being behind. With my new team I feel like 4 v 4 and 6 v 6 feel pretty similar but the TSS team it always felt like a "trade" was never worth it (maybe with the exception of a Gengar boom). But then that led me to be too cautious, basically switch out whenever I didn't think I could force them out, and I'd give my opponent a lot of chances to double switch, make a prediction with a coverage move, or otherwise slowly whittle me down back.
I also don't know if this is just a low ladder problem and the benefits of TSS only come into play when you're playing as/against people better than I am.
TSS should be one of the easiest team styles to climb to mid ladder with. Have you tried watching tour replays of people using TSS? There are plenty of them in the first post of this thread. If you want more specific help maybe you can post some replays.
how does one fit more niche mons esp in older gens... for ex. i asked somewhere about regice, i was told about how much weaknesses it has over other walls and how it is pretty specific. How does one justify putting it on a team over other mons
Like you see in revival tournaments or jim selection tours where some specific mons get usage like machamp, slaking, donphan, venu, kingdra, raikou, etc but how do you slot them on a team without feeling you are just making it worse?
when i wanted to fit smth more niche i usually just ask myself "why am i running this" and id usually go to the more consistent option
Like you see in revival tournaments or jim selection tours where some specific mons get usage like machamp, slaking, donphan, venu, kingdra, raikou, etc but how do you slot them on a team without feeling you are just making it worse?
when i wanted to fit smth more niche i usually just ask myself "why am i running this" and id usually go to the more consistent option
"Why am I running this?" should normally be the first thing you ask when using niche mons. If you get specific enough, you can define any mon in the game as the best at something. You justify putting a niche mon on your team because it is the best option available for what you want to accomplish.
Using your example of Regice. Regice is the best mon in the game at 1. Switching into special attackers, and 2. Also being able to switch into Zapdos on turn one. If the only thing you want your mon to do is switch into special attackers, you should always be using Blissey because its access to softboiled, natural cure, and lack of fire weakness mean that Blissey will be capable of switching into special attackers more times than Regice will be capable of. However, on the very first turn of the game (before any spikes have come down), blissey is unable to consistently switch into Zapdos because it risks dying to baton pass into Dugtrio. Therefore, in the very specific case of a team that wants to always switch out turn 1 from Zapdos and also wants a mon to switch into special attackers, Regice is the best mon available. Blssey might generally be a better special wall, but a team that meets these conditions would be worse by swapping Regice with Blissey.
For an example of what I'm talking about, check out this team (which I think is currently a sample team?) by Jirachee. https://pokepast.es/2845c6c0a7585afe.
Here, leading Skarm lets the team start with a spike vs all common leads other than zapdos. Because Skarmory has to switch out of Zapdos turn 1 and the other 5 mons on the team do not like switching into special attackers,* you do not want to risk Blissey getting Zapdos Bp'd --> Dug or else you instantly lose to Starmie. However, because Regice isn't the best mon at switching into special attackers in general, putting it on your team means that the rest of the team must be willing to stay in on special attackers more often than a similar team which uses Blissey. This means there are less teams that match up well into the metagame which use Regice than there are which use Blissey. More partners can take advantage of what Blissey is best at than what Regice is best at.
Of course, just cause a mon is the best at something doesn't mean that a team trying to do that thing is necessarily good. Sunkern for example recovers the most health from leech seed of any mon available. Even if you design a team that wants to take advantage of this fact, gaining the most health from leech seed just isn't impactful enough to compensate for the downsides of using Sunkern.** No set of 5 mons will take advantage of trait well enough to give Sunkern a non-meme niche in the meta. If you want to use Sunkern, however, you *should* be trying to take advantage of leech seed because otherwise you should be running something else.
*Technically dol can switch t1 into zapdos, then pivot to blissey to beat t1 bp --> dug. This isn't a perfect solution, however, because you just play the BP or attack mixup a second time if zapdos clicks tbolt t1 instead of bp.
**Funnily enough, "the pokemon which recovers the most health via leech seed that also gets sand veil" *was* a big enough niche back when that wasn't banned to create viable team structures.
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This is interesting.... but wont regice just be worse into everything else? For ex. zap clicks tbolt -> BP but meta will come in, or meta and instead of dug being trapped u may have to deal with smth u dont exactly have the longetivity to just pressure, esp since regice kinda gets shit on by rachi, gengar WoW, weaker into moltres... which isnt fun
Like I feel having blissey on this team may be better esp since in tour I hear zap dug isnt that good and i feel the moltres MU is pretty darn awkward esp since cune prob doesnt want to be forced to rest in sand and with potential spikes against it
I feel its just awkward to justify regice
If zapdos clicks BP and goes to metagross as you swap to regice, you swap back to skarm and now you get a spike (which was the whole game state you were trying to achieve by loading skarm lead in the first place) + your main special switch in is still at full health. If zapdos clicks BP and goes to dug as you swap to Blissey, you now have no spike and no special wall. The only thing you can do is pray and hope for a crit or freeze + no thaw. At that point, the game is essentially over because you can't avoid getting run over by offcune/rachi/celebi/mie/ect.
Having a Blissey instead of a Regice on the team might be better in some circumstances, like against moltres, but those matchups are not unplayable with the regice build. Cune still swaps into moltres if you keep it healthy, gar / dol can trade with it, metagross cleans through even full health Molt if it gets a turn to set up, and moltres has very few switch-in chances that do not require prediction. If you can outplay, you can win. You can't outplay if you don't have the tools to do that though and putting Blissey over Regice on the team above means you're choosing to give up your tools against the zapdug matchup. If you want to be consistent, its generally not a good idea to voluntarily accept unwinnable matchups just so you don't have to outplay some of your more awkward ones.
Of course, you can attack the idea that a team which wants to swap into Zapdos turn 1 but can't afford to get Blissey trapped is even viable in the first place. Some people would probably agree with that statement and plenty of teams use both Blissey + some other turn 1 zapdos switch-in or use Blissey as the only zap switch-in but lead tar so they don't have to switch t1 to get around this issue. There's always disagreement over whether the niche mons have an actually useful niche in metagame. FWIW though, the team I linked above was built for and used in high stakes tour matches so at least some people think it is a viable strategy. No team in ADV has a perfect matchup spread and, if nothing else, the ability to keep people guessing as to what you will bring reduces the number of awkward match-ups you have to play in the long run.
*Note: This isn't even the only possible niche that Regice has, I was just using the example of special wall Regice to make my point that you use a niche mon when it is the best mon available. Regice is not the best special wall so you only use it as a special wall when the special walls better than it are unavailable.
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I recently learned that Sandstorm on Showdown is actually not cart accurate, how it damages mons in order of speed like it does in later gens, in gen 3 it's apparently supposed to be random. I tried looking for a PR thread about this and couldn't find anything, and there isnt anything on the ADV OU rules page like "sandstorm clause" or something similar. Was this a decision that got made in the netbattle days that we still do bc of inertia? Was it more recent and google is just not a very good search engine now (very possible)?
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Some things in adv (who switches first, which players' abilities activate first) which are determined by who is "player one". Sandstorm may be one of those. We do have a mod that covers those scenarios because it is intuitive and it seems wrong to give one player an advantage over the other before the game even starts.
Here is the Showdown mechanics thread where is was first brought up:
And here is the PR thread where it was debated how to resolve the issue:
iirc shiny zap cannot bp and shiny moltres cannot will-o-wisp. that's basically the only relevant stuff.
I get that super advanced players really love the detail of speed tier charts, but as a beginner getting introduced to a gen I find them a bit intimidating for the sheer number of threats listed.
A more beginning player is using it to speed creep their mons. I was given some good advice, that for offensive Suicune, I can just ignore all the other numbers, and make sure I creep all Ttar, i.e. over 243 Speed stat. And I really like that number for bulky mons like Jirachi and Celebi too, as a benchmark not to drop below.
Also, for DDmons, I think 372 Speed number for all Dug seems super relevant, just to make sure to plan beforehand if you are outspeeding it with 1 or 2 clicks of DD, and maybe creeping up to get 1 less click if you're close.
Are there any other "universal" speed numbers like that to keep in mind for speed creeping all mons (especially on the lower end), or is every other number just very mon specific?
A more beginning player is using it to speed creep their mons. I was given some good advice, that for offensive Suicune, I can just ignore all the other numbers, and make sure I creep all Ttar, i.e. over 243 Speed stat. And I really like that number for bulky mons like Jirachi and Celebi too, as a benchmark not to drop below.
Also, for DDmons, I think 372 Speed number for all Dug seems super relevant, just to make sure to plan beforehand if you are outspeeding it with 1 or 2 clicks of DD, and maybe creeping up to get 1 less click if you're close.
Are there any other "universal" speed numbers like that to keep in mind for speed creeping all mons (especially on the lower end), or is every other number just very mon specific?
Usually more like 394 instead of 372 for aero. Thus 264 for dd birds.
270 for birds to overcome 269 for heracross.
330 for gar or 329 for modest mie/kou to overcome 328 for speedy base 100s.
Also outspeeding skarm for meta/tar
And outspeeding bliss for pert.
if you want to exploit bulky base 100s (and there are a lot of them) consider a few points above 244, since they are all creeping 243 ttar anyway.
Thanks mate. I like and will implement all of those suggestions during my set building.
Only thing is with the skarm for met/tar, there really isn't an objective number to shoot for as you have same/lower base speed stat so no matter how much you creep you could always theoretically be at least tied/outsped, while compromising your bulk. This is the never-ending grey area of speed creeping I always hated Gen III and beyond, having adapted to GSC environment with maxed EVs and pre-determined speed tiers.
Creeping Pert for Bliss also seems uncertain, but at least there you have the speed advantage so you can reasonably expect to outspeed many variants at the standard set values without stressing too much about creeping further.
Edit: When you say birds, you mean all flying types, right?
Not really. A lot of skarms don't want to deviate too far from 0 speed to survive Magneton bolt (and a small fraction significantly deviate to achieve other purposes, such as outspeeding Mag; Taunt skarm is also relatively uncommon). Similarly, a lot of Blisseys don't want to sacrifice any defense (because % change in damage taken is huge when base def is so small) and neither do they want to sacrifice sp.atk so that they can OHKO dug with the best odds.
The point is that creeping is not an arms race because there are some mons that have more EVs to spare to place in speed and those will likely win the creep game.
Edit: DDMence wants at least 264. DDGyara needs Jolly to meet 264 so you want to think about whether outspeeding Aero/Jolt is that important.
So I take it for Pert then you could put nothing in speed to outspeed Blissey, as he has a higher base speed stat, and relatively little for Meta/Tar to outspeed Skarm?