I've used Smack Down Ursaluna for flying types+that one levitating Brongzong team. It feels legit on some mons and I imagine a invested Lando would make good use I feel.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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just to be clear, not just talking about spikes, any hazard works including webs, rocks, tspikes, etc
personally i'd have to say Lu for its walling capabilities and excellent defensive profile into some of the most defining threats in the tier
i could definitely see a use for mortal spin on meat beam glimmora, although it's pretty hard to fit since you need meat beam/epower/sludge and really want one extra coverage option. it's a cool idea on paper fs
personally i'd have to say Lu for its walling capabilities and excellent defensive profile into some of the most defining threats in the tier
i don't necessarily think glimmy does significant enough damage to corv nor has the longevity to actually outlast it. glim is cool as a rocks/tspikes lead but it just doesn't have the longevity to run spikes or function as consistent removal. rocks and mortal spin are obviously pretty required so it's a little hard to fit spikes and the appropriate coverage and a lot of the time that coverage is more important. glimmora is not necessarily bulky enough to just sit on the field and spam spikes which is generally more efficiently done by samu on HO
i could definitely see a use for mortal spin on meat beam glimmora, although it's pretty hard to fit since you need meat beam/epower/sludge and really want one extra coverage option. it's a cool idea on paper fs
Lu has an excellent defensive profile and is one of the best blanket special checks in the entire metagame while also being able to function as a check to mons like dnite and gambit due to its typing and physically defensive profile coupled with whirlwind. Samu does not really have a lot of defensive utility outside of gholdengo and is a bit worse on bulkier teams that appreciate lu's ability to stonewall a large chunk of the metagame
honestly i think it works pretty well if you have a team really weak to corv or the kanto birds, also lets you punish gliscor pretty heavily as you mentioned. kinda niche but i think it could work well
Regarding Tera these are all of the stats related to the surveys/tests.
Dec 10 2022
Jan 4 - 2023
Jul 8 - 2023
Jan 22 - 2024
Mar 1 - 2024
Across all tests we have:
Unqualified Users Average "Yes" Response: 56.25%
Qualified Users Average "Yes" Response: 55.73%
Despite the average not currently hitting a 60% threshold it's still pretty close and in some instances was more than 60%. The only suspect test related to Tera with only qualified users hit 59.25%, just shy of the threshold. The declining survey engagement is also something to note as there is a lot that can be inferred from that.
Even if there wasn't enough direct support for a full ban there was certainly a lot of support for something to be done which never really happened. This could be due to a number of factors but it still leaves quite a large percentage of players that will feel dismissed as a result.
Gliscor. Great glue mon for multiple play styles. It is better designed than Lando-T, both aesthetically and otherwise. You can set rocks, spikes, and/or T-spikes depending on what you want. STAB EQ can hit grounded Poison types if you go the T-spikes option. There is even the potential option to Knock Off opposing boots. Of course, Spikes are the best hazard right now. But there is also a lot of flexibility depending on the teammates. Gliscor also pairs well with other hazard stack mons like Hamurott and Gholdengo that naturally resist Ice moves. (Except Freeze Dry for the former.)
Gliscor as a hazard setter is just very versatile. It is also strong without being overbearing like Hamurott, which most other mons in the hazard discussion become red herrings for. Any number of hazard setters in OU like Gliscor or Ting-Lu can get up hazards over the course of a game. The stickiness of hazards is a seperate issue.
I also like Glimmora. It is another one with multiple hazards to set. Most of the mons that can set and clear hazards mainly just set rocks, such as Tusk and Treads. So it is nice to see more than this. I know we are talking hazard setters, but Mortal Spin is pretty underrated as a removal option since you bypass Ghost spinblockers besides Ghold. A Glimm that isn't just designed to be an HO suicide lead allows for a different sort of setup for hazards and counterplay chains that a lot of teams aren't as ready for, despite Steel types being very common. It can also work well as a secondary removal option even as the common HO lead.
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I toyed around with Boots hazard remove Glim for awhile, bulkier spread with spikey shield; it actually kinda was baller, i feel like if you build around it as a phys hit absorber that spits out toxic spikes/use corrosion its... fun?
Just a question on transparency. In the latest survey I got curious on how, despite being a controversial topic, Tera was mentioned 0 times in the "Other notes" section. I went around asking for information and I got confirmation that at least one qualified player did nominate it. I didn't ask many people, and I doubt they were the only one, although this is obviously not something I have proof of, however 1 mention seemed to be noteworthy enough. Just would like to know why was it not mentioned, if possible.
As alluded to in the Tera post, discussion of the announcement began in January and at this point the writing was already on the wall — it got 3-5 write-in nominations out of the 130 qualified people off the top of my head
This misses the mark as the other forms of action — Tera Preview, for example — were seen as non-starters by the time we hit mid-late 2023. Just about everyone in the PR thread and tiering circles agreed that these type of half measures would cause more harm than good. We had other questions on an outright ban, which reflected the support I specifically was talking about and made clear in both of my posts.
In addition, Tera Blast was included with some of these numbers, which now has its own place on surveys and is purposefully still on the table, which I made clear in the announcement as well. Context matters
in general? prob ass. but one time i saw a really fire bu smack down lando, and i think that might have potential for gliscor
Yeah I was not good in that era. But to say I was not a top tier gen 8 player is a laughable revision of history.
I held a dominant position on the #1 spot for about 2 months. I knew the most about the meta and built the best teams of the port clef meta. Double clef and the quagsire replacement of that team were by far the best teams of that era. Olt coming after the DLC drop means that meta and my dominance is completely lost to history. But if you were around for the worst meta in smogon history then you know what I’m talking about.
Also I won a game that OLT Coballion 100% winrate in OLT VII lets fucking go!.
Yeah I am down for a fight. I very much enjoy smogon duel culture compared to most online spaces where people just insult each other then block each other and cry about it to their followers.
As I said before open to challenges from tour players so they can decide themselves if I’m good enough to have an opinion on this topic.
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getting to #1 spot on ladder and holding it does not equal being a “top tier” player in any generation
despite of all, this guy looks a bit like his idol Storm Zone. They are both OLT players and both have not bad results in swiss
Do explain, because I'd assume that hitting the literal top of ladder, and defending it (it isnt that competitive, but still) would make someone a top tier player. One of a good many, yes, but top tier nonetheless.
Good players hit the top of the ladder once, top players can hit #1 whenever they feel like it.
I mean the long and short of it is that playing ladder and playing in tours are related but separate skillsets.
Knowing how to scout, how to cteam in response to a scout, how to analyze replays for exploitable play patterns are a set of skills that benefit you in tournament play that are of dubious use on ladder. At the same time, ladder requires extremely consistent play that tours simply do not. If you're playing Bo1 then you're fine running a team that'll completely fail some of the time if it can cheese you a win vs a player who'd normally be advantaged against you. On ladder a team that straight loses at matchup 10% of the time is not consistent enough.
All this is to also say that if you're good at ladder you can probably adapt to also be good at tour play, and vice-versa, but its not automatic.
Knowing how to scout, how to cteam in response to a scout, how to analyze replays for exploitable play patterns are a set of skills that benefit you in tournament play that are of dubious use on ladder. At the same time, ladder requires extremely consistent play that tours simply do not. If you're playing Bo1 then you're fine running a team that'll completely fail some of the time if it can cheese you a win vs a player who'd normally be advantaged against you. On ladder a team that straight loses at matchup 10% of the time is not consistent enough.
All this is to also say that if you're good at ladder you can probably adapt to also be good at tour play, and vice-versa, but its not automatic.
Even if the suggested alternative measures at the time were seen as non-starters, that doesn’t change the fact that a majority of players (56% on average) still supported some form of tiering action which never happened nor was discussed in earnest as a primary focus. Even if none of the proposed measures at the time had more of a consensus, dismissing over half of respondents through no action is still a misrepresentation of overall community sentiment.
Prioritizing the conversation around restrictions could have aligned better with community sentiment and provided a more practical path forward but the ambiguity around what would happen with Tera considering the framing of the survey questions and the focus shifting to banning Pokemon that might be Uber didn't really help towards leaning this direction.
Only 26% of these people wanted an outright ban and the most popular restriction — Tera Blast — is still on the table. You are proving my point more than your own here. By this time, stuff like STAB Tera and Tera preview were non-starters as the thread and countless other posts made clear.
However, it quite literally was the primary focus in 2023. We had a survey with it as the focus and a PR thread — I specifically held up on another couple potential suspects for a few weeks for the sake of pushing this discussion when we had a rare opening in the calendar. It is revisionist history to say it wasn’t focused on or prioritized. Nothing else got that treatment at all. It just didn’t have the support for an outright ban. You can try and spin the numbers to fit whatever narrative, but in disregarding what actually happened, you’re just doing a disservice to the facts of the matter.
I’m here to put an end to this yapping. First, I’ll say that you’re right in a lot of ways in that Smogon team tours are very influenced by people who are known, have clout, or have friends in important positions. That’s just how it be honestly and nothing will ever change it. Kinda sucks
HOWEVER. You know the biggest difference between very accomplished ladder players/circuit tour guys/underrated guys have with people who are drafted? Marketing. This is a social forum for a videogame, so obv how you present yourself matters the most. It’s not like good players often get ignored or picked up in favor of washed noob friends, this happens rarely in fact with maybe a few snubs a year. The reason this happens is people don’t present themselves in an appealing enough way for managers to take the chance, so cowardly managers will always go for the known, “mid” quantity over trying out new talent.
I was super ass when I first started playing team tours (and currently), but I have a loud presence and could connect to people. After I somehow made Grand Slam quarters I was messaging every manager that I think had even a tiny bit of a chance to get me, and eventually it sticks and I went 2-4 in Snake 1 lol. During this past SCL, Envy started a dm with me and showed me their three ladder alts with 90 GXE at the top of the LC ladder. Instantly, I brought this up with the gang and my retain zS tested vs them and deemed them sheist. We bought em for 3k and resulted in 4 wins, which is more than what you can ask from a cheap buy. Envy went out of their way to market and present themself and it ended with a debut tournament.
The point I’m making is so many people just whine and complain about not being drafted when they don’t do shit about it to maximize their chances. There are snubs that exist, but you have to wonder why they are being snubbed. Look at Kenix for ex, 3k dynamos which lead to 15k SPL for a combined record of, what, 9-1 since then? Why was he only picked at mids? Probably cuz some people kinda thought of him as a meme due to his public perception, but now he is greatly respected. If you feel snubbed for a tournament, ask yourself the reasons why. Did you come off too abrasive? Do your results not back up your ego? There are many things to consider and many factors that contribute to if a person is bought.
Also, you shittalking a 4-1 SV OU player who is almost singlehandedly getting her SV core great-amazing match-ups is so ridiculous. SV is all about innovation and being different, so obviously some of the teams might come across as fishy or cheese, but a lot of thought went into making those matchups. It’s about weighing what you can afford to be weaker into vs. what you need to account for. Custap Lu and Hat were used years ago as well, and the only reason the item was even revealed to us is bc they clearly put in a lot of work in the tournament game.
Tl;dr: negative mindset holds many good players back. There are also inexplicable snubs every year like Ahsan, but I know people don’t love him. Snubs will always happen, but there is usually more that you can do to not be one of those. Make sure you do all that you can if you care.
non-mod-lax-edit: since it was edited out, I wanted to point out the "95 gxe" brag is not the brag he thinks it is. letting your account drop to 1500 so you can gxemax is lamer than it is swag. awful point to make to someone with somewhat valid concerns about the tournament scene (despite being wrong and hostile in a few ways)
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This is what I mean when I mention "have a timeframe for potential resuspects". As I said, I understand a lot got in the way and that you cant really predict how a generation will play out. I also more than get that the best was tried given the conditions. But one way or another, we have a mechanic that was less than 1% away from completely changing a generation. Hence what I argue is that we can learn from what happened with Tera and try to iron out what we can, even if next to nothing, for the future.
We know SPL runs from January to March, then WCoP from May to mid July, and from that point on we have OLT, SCL, until having another break in December, with maybe a couple of weeks in between. Maybe an idea could be generational mechanics may only be tested during this and this time period, and try to go from there.
But again this is an idea, and I think coming up with ways to improve future tiering actions will only help us. I feel thats more benefitial than being in a cycle of arguing and being told why thats wrong, while things stay the same.
This is a great point!
I do plan on mapping out tiering openings well in advance next generation if I am still leading OU (which I am not committing to) or advising whoever is in charge do the same. I do not think "only this time", but finding a window to use whenever in doubt can be good to have in mind. This is my first generation going in as tier leader (see: ABR/Sleep Clause situation in lead up to SS), so navigating the calendar was a bit foreign to me to say the least.
When Pokemon and our major Smogon events continue to evolve their schedule, it is on tiering to adapt to fit the circumstances they are working with, too. Tiering has adapted to the information age with transparency and surveys, tiering has adapted to fraud with automated suspects, and tiering will continue to adapt in other ways, so this should be no different!
In the end, we need to be more flexible, find creative ways to do what is best for the metagame, and learn from the feedback the community is providing, which I appreciate and value greatly.
Thank you for your transparency and hard work, Finchinator.
I just hope this topic about finding flexible creative ways to deal with the metagame is not referring to stuff like banning Electro Shot on Archaludon to allow Archaludon in OU or allowing Terapagos-Stellar in OU (which is basically banning a mon from Terastalizing when Terastalization is a universal mechanic in Gen 9) as they quite blatantly violate Smogon's tiering philosophy, which I maintain does not need to be updated.
Where can one read the Smogon tiering policy?
The Tiering Policy post/thread, which also links out to the older and more extensive version. There's also the Policy Review subforum, which has a lot more nuance and discussions about what is being adjusted/considered for tiering policy changes or how mechanics and suspects and the like fit into policy
I for one hope such examples are the creative ways they have in mind to deal with the metagame. It is known that such things have been done previously and if gamefreaks trend of signature moves continues, it is a must. I expect we will look back at having dropped the ball on this later.
Will not respond. Just felt someone needed to express opposition to your statement so it isn't seen as general community consensus. Better a debate over it in policy review or survey than here, if it is something on table.
Thanks