More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

[Bourbon]

that won't decide anything unless we then later decide "ok this is the cutoff point of damage where a move becomes broken. hey look, stealth rock is above it, well time for ban!" or we'd have to devise one before testing.

If Stealth Rock does a stupidly high amount of damage per match, say upwards of 300%, then we should ban it. Being able to kill off half a team with just one move is ridiculous.

If it's lower, like say ~200% then we should consider voting on it's ban, but if it's around 300% then there definitely should be a vote.

 

[Darkmalice]

If Stealth Rock does a stupidly high amount of damage per match, say upwards of 300%, then we should ban it. Being able to kill off half a team with just one move is ridiculous.

If it's lower, like say ~200% then we should consider voting on it's ban, but if it's around 300% then there definitely should be a vote.

What's the damge cap that makes SR broken? 300% or 200%? That's a matter of opinion.

Technically, one would say 100%, as that is the max Health any Pokemon can have. And SR is almost certain to do more damage than that in a match, especially considering Salamance, Zapdos, Gyarados and Skymin, 4 of the 10 most commonly used pokemon, plus many other pokemon all take 25% from SR. This is similar to the Garchomp has a guaranteed KO argument, except SR probably does more damage in a match but the damage is spread out across the team.

I agree with Chinese Dood. SR clause is definitely a good idea. The main question would be is it turned on in official matches or not. That's why we need SR tested. Go ahead and argue why its not broken or why its Uber, but it seems clear with all this argument that SR is worthy of a test.

 

[lilyhollow]

If Stealth Rock does a stupidly high amount of damage per match, say upwards of 300%, then we should ban it. Being able to kill off half a team with just one move is ridiculous.

This is super misleading and just wrong in general. First of all, doing 300% damage is in no way equal to killing 3 pokemon for "free," since that's not how damage works and there is a huge difference between doing 50% damage to two pokemon, and just OHKOing something. Secondly, even if it did do 300% damage on average, since we're in a non-broken metagame right now all that would prove is that "300% damage on average" is an acceptable number. Again, if you want to prove we're currently in a broken metagame, you have to... actually explain why. Numbers and statistics don't say anything by themselves-- if we suddenly discovered that Lopunny had 8 times the damage output of everything else in OU, but absolutely nothing changed since then and we didn't find the metagame at all broken before, what reason would we have to test Lopunny? All it has is a statistic that looks broken. I'd call that a confirmation that "8x the damage output of everything in OU =/= instantly broken," not "evidence that our previous metagame was broken" when we already know for a fact that it wasn't.

If it's lower, like say ~200% then we should consider voting on it's ban, but if it's around 300% then there definitely should be a vote.

Wait, so you're not even arguing for a SR Suspect Test? Just, count up the amount of damage it does on average and base everything entirely on that?

This is similar to the Garchomp has a guaranteed KO argument, except SR probably does more damage in a match but the damage is spread out across the team.

Yeah, if Stealth Rock was some kind of delayed OHKO move that just slaughtered whatever happened to switch in, maybe there'd be an argument here. But it isn't, and that's why most reasonable people don't cite damage output as an element that could prove Stealth Rock broken, instead bringing up the fact that it can significantly ease offensive setups, or cripple certain individual pokemon (not that either of these arguments are valid either in my mind).

 

[MetaNite]

Getting into Shoddy lately, I've realized Stealth Rock isn't a huge problem. You have 5 flying types on your team, throw in a Starmie. Seriously. Bring it in on that anti-lead Azelf as they set up their rocks. Rapid Spin, which also gets rid of their sash.

You more worried about Aerodactyl, use forretress the same way.

 

[TDS]

the only thing I have against stealth rock is that it automatically dramatically decreases the usage of 10 such pokemon

 

[ToF]

I favor a test on Stealth Rock of course, but to me, the arguments presented don't heavily impact me in favor of SR being a "broken move". With the advent of Focus sash, something needed to be implemented in order to negate the item. Drawing parallels to GSC, Spikes were nullified by Rapid Spin. As long as there is a counterbalance between moves and items, I'm perfectly fine with their implementation in the current metagame. The term "broken" comes into play with me when nothing in the metagame has been found or exists in order to counteract a certain aspect (as was the case with Garchomp for me).

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

According to me to forbid SRock has put too much indeed there time, if it was had to do he had to be done in past, in the last times he is spreading in big number the Zapdos.
Until the metagame it won't change (with a consequent diminution of the Zapdos) it won't have sense ban the SRock, we wait, you are not so hasty.

 

[lilyhollow]

the only thing I have against stealth rock is that it automatically dramatically decreases the usage of 10 such pokemon

virtually everything in the game limits other options to some extent. Stealth Rock is not special.

 

[ANinyMouse]

Personally, while I agree with the stance that a test on SR will inevitably result in two opposing metagames, I think that the prospect of seeing what would happen when we got to that point is fascinating.

That said, settle everything else first, I say.

 

[haterguy]

I dont understand..

Rapid Spin wont be as important if SR would be banned.
Sashers would run the place.
Taunt is usable to prevent it

 

[speedwobbles225]

What if damaged was halved for everything?

I think that would allow more use for pokes that are held back by x4 weaks but still punish Gyrados and Mence

 

[Bogmire]

What if damaged was halved for everything?

I think that would allow more use for pokes that are held back by x4 weaks but still punish Gyrados and Mence

that would be changing the game's mechanics.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Getting into Shoddy lately, I've realized Stealth Rock isn't a huge problem. You have 5 flying types on your team, throw in a Starmie. Seriously. Bring it in on that anti-lead Azelf as they set up their rocks. Rapid Spin, which also gets rid of their sash.

You more worried about Aerodactyl, use forretress the same way.

Yeah, but what's stopping it from setting up again later? How about U-Turn which would do a lot to Starmie.

I dont understand..

Rapid Spin wont be as important if SR would be banned.
Sashers would run the place.
Taunt is usable to prevent it

Sashers are stopped by Spikes and weather. You could even Trick something to a Sasher to really mess up its setup. Taunt is only practical when you can KO the SR user chances are it'd just switch out and use it a little later.

Also Tricking a Sash can make things even worse for the opponent as the Tricker would be harder to KO.

 

[cim]

To be honest, I thought Obi's Trick-ban-analogy was completely perfect and comparable to a Stealth Rock ban, and I'm a little dissapointed that the pro-test people haven't responded. Especially MTI. Looking at that argument, it's clearly ridiculous, but is it really any different from your own? Even the made up "counterarguments" are there.

Man, that was a brilliant post Obi. Hi-five.

I wanted to clear up something. Normally I'm always for testing everything, but SR's test I'm not convinced would do anything per Seven Deadly Sins's post. I just don't see how playing an SRless metagame will "prove" anything other than "the metagame is different" which people might mistake for "too powerful".

Obi, Trick would not be nearly as bad if it worked correctly on Shoddy. As it is currently, if you Trick away a choice item and receive one in return, you are allowed to switch moves again freely. On the DS, you are forced to use Trick again. I personally use this to my advantage all the time.

This is actually correct in game behavior. Or at least it is in DP, I distinctly remember testing it out. This is ignoring that you completely missed the point of his post.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Yeah, it was a little spooky seeing the parallels in those arguments. Well done, Obi!

Seriously though, I'm not going to have a cow if SR doesn't get tested. I'm just curious how the test would turn out--nothing more.

 

[lilyhollow]

Well there already was a SRless tournament, though obviously what that can actually tell us is pretty limited compared to a full-blown suspect test. Still, I think it's notable that, contradictory to speculation, Garchomp was still very dominant, and in fact might have been made even more effective with the other two dragons getting a buff. I had a lot of success with Garchomp + Dragonite until being beaten by IPL, who I'm pretty sure won the entire tournament just by using his standard DP team, minus Stealth Rock. >_>

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised to see Salamence + Dragonite becoming a popular combination in a SRless Platinum metagame, for what it's worth.

 

[XdrubX]

Honestly, Stealth Rock isn't that hard to not get affected by severely (every team should have wish support anyways,). The metagame would change more severely than it did with the Garchomp advance, the Deoxys advance, Skymin being added and the like.

 

[Glen ^^]

I really can't see how a move used to disable a single Pokemon is comparable to the universally punishing and centralizing SR.

Since Smogon got ban-happy since Manaphy ban, why not test this already? We won't know if a SRless metagame would be better or worse without actual testing.

 

[lilyhollow]

I really can't see how a move used to disable a single Pokemon is comparable to the universally punishing and centralizing SR.

What does this even mean? So it's broken because it discriminates, but also because it... doesn't discriminate (hurts everything)? Never mind the fact that one could (and did) argue that Trick forces players to keep Choice users on their teams in order to block it- the moves don't have to be identical for the situations to be comparable.

Since Smogon got ban-happy since Manaphy ban, why not test this already?

Who exactly do you think you'll be convincing with this argument? "Well our community is already going down the drain, why not help it along a little?" really?

 

[Darkmalice]

Getting into Shoddy lately, I've realized Stealth Rock isn't a huge problem. You have 5 flying types on your team, throw in a Starmie. Seriously. Bring it in on that anti-lead Azelf as they set up their rocks. Rapid Spin, which also gets rid of their sash.

You more worried about Aerodactyl, use forretress the same way.

Agreeing with MythInfinityTrainer, you are not stopping SR from coming back up. As well, your Rapid Spin could be blocked by Rotom or Gengar (and Surf won't OHKO Gengar or Rotom on a Spinning Starmie, whilst their Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt will (or at least cause major damage in Rotom's case)). Stopping SR is impossible unless you already have a pokemon in play that can KO or Taunt the opposing pokemon before SR is set up.


Obi was very successful at comparing the arguments for a ban on SR to a ban on Trick. But I feel that SR is more worthy of a Suspect test than Trick, as Trick is easier to deal with. If I suspect a Trick, send in a Choiced Pursuit user like Tyranitar, Scizor, Weavile or even Metagross to take the Trick - common Trickers like Rotom, Gengar, Azelf and Starmie will die if they swap out (Gengar and Azelf can die even if they stay in). I'm not supporting a ban yet, I just want to see SR tested.

 

[cim]

Obi was very successful at comparing the arguments for a ban on SR to a ban on Trick. But I feel that SR is more worthy of a Suspect test than Trick, as Trick is easier to deal with. If I suspect a Trick, send in a Choiced Pursuit user like Tyranitar, Scizor, Weavile or even Metagross to take the Trick - common Trickers like Rotom, Gengar, Azelf and Starmie will die if they swap out (Gengar and Azelf can die even if they stay in). I'm not supporting a ban yet, I just want to see SR tested.

And not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of Obi's post. It was a satirical comparison designed to highlight the OP as "ridiculous". By actually debating "SR versus Trick", you're completely missing the point of what he was trying to say.

Guys. Carefully ask yourselves this: What would a no SR test prove? Obviously it has a huge impact on the metagame and it will change. What will come out of the test though? Will we be able to see its power, or just its influence? Know what you're looking for when you test.

 

[Glen ^^]

What does this even mean? So it's broken because it discriminates, but also because it... doesn't discriminate (hurts everything)? Never mind the fact that one could (and did) argue that Trick forces players to keep Choice users on their teams in order to block it- the moves don't have to be identical for the situations to be comparable.


Who exactly do you think you'll be convincing with this argument? "Well our community is already going down the drain, why not help it along a little?" really?

It's broken because there's absolutely no risk into using SR, and the reward is too high.

You can easily work around Trick, even use it to your advantage if you play smart. Tricked walls aren't completely useless, they're useful just by staying alive.

How can you counter SR? How can you regret setting up SR? There's absolutely no risk on it (unlike every other move in the game), it's a win-win situation.


About the last paragraph.
SR is a common concern while building teams. It's much more game changing than any tested Pokemon so far.

Since we started testing things to see what's broken and what isn't, then we should test everything to make sure we're playing the most balanced metagame possible.

 

[gorm]

How can you counter SR? How can you regret setting up SR? There's absolutely no risk on it (unlike every other move in the game), it's a win-win situation.

lol the fact that sr is overwhelmingly beneficial makes it ban worthy? not unlike that annoying recover move!

to answer your question, you could regret using sr ifyour opponent takes that turn to set up on you (say with gyarados) and sweeps a decent amount of your team, enough to be heavily advantaged you. it's never risk free to give your opponent a free turn. with deoe gone there's really no surefire lead anymore so its not like people are getting sr down without fail every game, and even if they are, suicide leads themselves are a bit of gambit, you're hoping you can tae down your opponent with 5 mons and sr up better than you could with 6.

plus there's the "what if a pokemon switches in on sr with a berry and it activates and he sweeps" nonesense but the point is you are wrong.

this is largely theorymon (just like the rest of this thread lol) so i'll get to the point: we have more important testing priorities than a move that "might" be beneficial whilst being banned.

theorymon arguments are bounching back and forth and are pretty much worhtless compared to testing can we just put a hold on this discussion until we are done testing more worthwhile stuff?

 

[lilyhollow]

It's broken because there's absolutely no risk into using SR, and the reward is too high.

The same could be said of Trick. Just look at Darknessmalice, seems like he agrees that Trick could conceivably be worthy of a Suspect Test!

You can easily work around Trick, even use it to your advantage if you play smart. Tricked walls aren't completely unused, they're useful just by staying alive.

How can you counter SR? How can you regret setting up SR? There's absolutely no risk on it (unlike every other move in the game), it's a win-win situation.

People work around Stealth Rock all the time in the sense that it doesn't cripple them. As for Stealth Rock somehow having absolutely 0 risk, yeah ok there.

About the last paragraph.
SR is a common concern while building teams. It's much more game changing than any tested Pokemon so far.

This is a reason why banning it would be extremely idiotic. It isn't broken, but its inclusion creates a huge impact on the metagame. Switching isn't broken, and its inclusion creates a huge impact on the metagame. Let's test switching?

Since we started testing things to see what's broken and what isn't, then we should test everything to make sure we're playing the most balanced metagame possible.

well there you have it I guess. As in, the entire point to Obi's and my posts. Oh, and once again, testing a metagame without Stealth Rock won't tell us whether or not it is broken. The most it can possibly do is tell us which metagame we "like more."

 

[Darkmalice]

And not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of Obi's post. It was a satirical comparison designed to highlight the OP as "ridiculous". By actually debating "SR versus Trick", you're completely missing the point of what he was trying to say.

Guys. Carefully ask yourselves this: What would a no SR test prove? Obviously it has a huge impact on the metagame and it will change. What will come out of the test though? Will we be able to see its power, or just its influence? Know what you're looking for when you test.

...That's what i said.

Obi was very successful at comparing the arguments for a ban on SR to a ban on Trick.

Comparing the arguments for a ban on SR to a (ridiculous) ban on Trick. Rather ridiculous that I would have to include that word for people like you.