Salamence? Viable to be tested? Give me a break...
The one thing that worries me, is the addition of yet another powerhouse into an already hyper-offensive metagame. And as opposed to Garchomp and Skymin, it doesn't have a 4x weakness.
Salamence? Viable to be tested? Give me a break...
I've been skimming the thread to get an idea of some of the discussion, and I think people are underestimating Lati@s ability to run Reflect. Some of you are posting these great revenge kill numbers and ways to stop the more sweeping type of Lati@s with certain pokemon - but support type Lati@s with Reflect will become such a burden to teams imo. If everyone is pulling out CB Ice Shards, Bullet Punches, Crunches, Pursuits, Megahorn, whatever - then what stops a shift to a Reflect Lati@s supporting a team and helping stop these own threats I see listed? We'll see how it plays out, but the "sweeping" type set will probably be most popular, but the most effective might very well be a support type Lati@s.
Reflect and Light Screen are more of a threat when dealing with Salamence, Gyarados, and BP teams who get more turns to set up and sweep even more easily. As such, it's already a good strategy, with plenty of Pokemon able to pull it off, one of the more prominent ones I see being Starmie. The screens are not a new threat to worry about, and certainly not the worst to be looking out for in Lati@s.
Triple dragon is kinda stupid an ice type counters half your team and no doubt they wont let they're ice type die.
I am all for testing the Lati twins but I honestly don't understand why all of the sudden we are deciding this? Because they are not being used enough in Ubers? That is horrible reasoning, as the Uber tier is designed for pokemon deemed too powerful for OU, so you can't decide to test them purely on the basis of usage in Ubers.
Because they are not being used enough in Ubers? That is horrible reasoning
From my knowledge, it's been planned for a while >_>.I am all for testing the Lati twins but I honestly don't understand why all of the sudden we are deciding this?
Yeah, too bad that's not the actual reason. Have you even considered how it's Smogon's goal to have a balanced metagame with as few bans as possible? Soul Dew in theory makes the Lati twins Uber and without it (also in theory) they could be viable in OU.Because they are not being used enough in Ubers? That is horrible reasoning, as the Uber tier is designed for pokemon deemed too powerful for OU, so you can't decide to test them purely on the basis of usage in Ubers.
Vaporeon can take on Suicune without a problem and can also Baton Pass without being raped by Pursuit >_>. A thrid Gyarados/Infernape counter might actually do the metagame good since most of the time, it will take a lot to stop them from sweeping a team, same goes for Nasty Plot Azelf and Calm Mind Jirachi.Anyways, Latias seems like it will be used on stall teams most often. It can counter Gyarados and Infernape, while providing Wish support, much like Vaporeon.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, how does Latias outstall Celebi? Since Celebi runs Thunder Wave/Leech Seed/Recover/Grass Knot the most, I don't see how that's possible since Ice Beam does shit damage to it >_>.However, its advantages are its higher base speed, and the ability to take down Celebi
Who says Lati@s has to be used in conjunction with other ice weak dragons? DD Kingdra can easily set up on their counters(unboosted Scizor, Metagross, Blissey).
I understand smogon is trying to "balance" the metagame, however, on the same token, you are taking away an item that only works on those two pokemon, while leaving a certain pokemon named Garchomp Uber, and we all know he wouldn't be Uber without Yache Berry. It doesn't seem right to allow the Lati twins back into OU, simply because they are without Soul Dew. If smogon truly wanted to balance the metagame, they would allow Garchomp back into standards, not the Lati twins. Take away its Yache Berry, and since smogon has banned a plethora of moves, including OHKO moves, why not take off Outrage as well?
The only things Garchomp would balance don't even stand a chance against Lati@s, including Zapdos, Heatran, the one exception being Lucario, who you are better off dealing with resistances anyways, since a Close Combat followed by an Extremespeed does plenty to Garchomp to prevent any sort of sweeping.
I thought I made my point clear about Latios posting calculations to common switchins, but I guess it was your decision to not acknowledge the fact that it can take down any switchin, except Blissey or Registeel.
Oh, another thing, please don't tell me "they are Pursuit weak!" , so Careful Tyranitar destroys it! There are weaknesses to every pokemon, it is just how you measure those weaknesses or how they affect the surrounding environment that determine its tier status.
As for Celebi, Latias easily outstalls it with Safeguard + Roost/Recover or Wish+Protect, while building Calm Minds up in the process. As for Latios, Draco Meteor is more powerful against Celebi than Ice Beam, and a 591 SpA Draco Meteor does 93-109%, against a 252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Celebi. So, yes, both of them can easily beat Celebi.
It may not have a 4x weakness, but it's a bit like Celebi; it has many weaknesses. Super Effective special hits take their toll, and any physical attacks that are not resisted are going to hurt, most likely 2HKO at least. Any super effective physical hit will hurt pretty bad.
Now that I think about it, Lati@s might help to bring back some physical direction in this game to exploit the weaknesses and in turn that'll shift it back into balance. Maybe I'm overthinking their impact a bit though.
Nobody reasonable actually believes that Salamence is currently Uber, I don't think. We're talking about the hypothetical scenario in which adding Lati@s is the "straw that breaks the camel's back" and causes the dragon type itself to dominate and centralize the metagame. Even though Lati@s would perhaps be the "cause" of the problem, if Salamence were to remain in the top 3 and "one of them has to be Uber," I'd say we'd have to test Salamence.EDIT: Being weak to Stealth Rock keeps Salamence in check, as well as the lacking special defense to switch into ScarfTran. Things like Vaporeon, Suicune, Swampert, Cresselia, etc. can counter Salamence as well. I really don't see him being Uber.