Salamence? Viable to be tested? Give me a break...
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
Okay, I am personally all for their testing, on the basis that they are dealt with in Ubers by pokemon that exist in OU, plus they no longer have Soul Dew backing them.
The one thing that worries me, is the addition of yet another powerhouse into an already hyper-offensive metagame. And as opposed to Garchomp and Skymin, it doesn't have a 4x weakness.
The one thing that worries me, is the addition of yet another powerhouse into an already hyper-offensive metagame. And as opposed to Garchomp and Skymin, it doesn't have a 4x weakness.
It may not have a 4x weakness, but it's a bit like Celebi; it has many weaknesses. Super Effective special hits take their toll, and any physical attacks that are not resisted are going to hurt, most likely 2HKO at least. Any super effective physical hit will hurt pretty bad.
Now that I think about it, Lati@s might help to bring back some physical direction in this game to exploit the weaknesses and in turn that'll shift it back into balance. Maybe I'm overthinking their impact a bit though.
Hey, if the problem with the metagame is "too many high-powered dragon-type attackers", then who's to say it's Lati@s' fault? Just because Lati@s was the last to be tested doesn't necessarily mean that it's Lati@s' fault the metagame is screwed up. You have to weigh all the threats in the metagame equally, regardless of which came first.
I've been skimming the thread to get an idea of some of the discussion, and I think people are underestimating Lati@s ability to run Reflect. Some of you are posting these great revenge kill numbers and ways to stop the more sweeping type of Lati@s with certain pokemon - but support type Lati@s with Reflect will become such a burden to teams imo. If everyone is pulling out CB Ice Shards, Bullet Punches, Crunches, Pursuits, Megahorn, whatever - then what stops a shift to a Reflect Lati@s supporting a team and helping stop these own threats I see listed? We'll see how it plays out, but the "sweeping" type set will probably be most popular, but the most effective might very well be a support type Lati@s.
Reflect and Light Screen are more of a threat when dealing with Salamence, Gyarados, and BP teams who get more turns to set up and sweep even more easily. As such, it's already a good strategy, with plenty of Pokemon able to pull it off, one of the more prominent ones I see being Starmie. The screens are not a new threat to worry about, and certainly not the worst to be looking out for in Lati@s.
I think you mean Bronzong :P
Anyways, yeah, screens aren't new and there are bulkier pokemon that can pull it off. Latias' jobs all seem to be done better by somebody else (special walling + Wish = Blissey, for example). I suppose the versatility that she has is a plus.
Latios shouldn't be considered for support, period. Latias is way better at it.
Honestly Salamence does scare me way more than Latios does but whatever, at least Salamence actually dies to pokemon with move.
I hope if tripleDragon proves to be broken people don't jump and say it's latios's fault if it turns out it was all salamence the whole time
I hope if tripleDragon proves to be broken people don't jump and say it's latios's fault if it turns out it was all salamence the whole time
Yes! Lets run triple dragon and have Weavile shit all over our team!
I think I'm going to run a Magnezone - Weavile - Lati@ offense.
I think I'm going to run a Magnezone - Weavile - Lati@ offense.
I am all for testing the Lati twins but I honestly don't understand why all of the sudden we are deciding this? Because they are not being used enough in Ubers? That is horrible reasoning, as the Uber tier is designed for pokemon deemed too powerful for OU, so you can't decide to test them purely on the basis of usage in Ubers.
Anyways, Latias seems like it will be used on stall teams most often. It can counter Gyarados and Infernape, while providing Wish support, much like Vaporeon. However, its advantages are its higher base speed, and the ability to take down Celebi, a huge threat to stall teams because of Leech Seed + Natural Cure. I think Latias isn't broken at all.
As for Latios, even without Soul Dew, its Choice Specs Draco Meteor is more powerful than a DD'd Salamence's Outrage, without locking itself in. It 2HKOs most Scizor, doing a little over 96%, minimum against 252 HP / 16 SpD neutral Scizor. Considering that is one of the most used Pursuiters, imagine what it does to things that don't resist. Let's look at some other top threats:
Top: Most commonly used spread for pokemon A
Bottom: Bulkiest spread used for pokemon A
(2) 591 SpA Draco Meteors vs:
252 HP / 4 SpD neutral Tyranitar: 93-108%
252 HP / 216 SpD Careful Tyranitar: 69-81%
4 HP / 0 SpD Naive Heatran: 91-108%
252 HP / 240 SpD neutral Heatran: 55-66%
28 HP / 0 SpD neutral Empoleon: 88-103%
252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Empoleon: 54-63%
252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Metagross: 84-99%
208 HP / 224 SpD neutral Metagross: 67-79%
Now, given that none of these have reliable forms of recovery, Latios can easily beat them without relying on any other coverage except Draco Meteor. Metagross must predict a switch and kill it with Pursuit, or Bullet Punch it in the face. Tyranitar can threaten it with Pursuit, but without a Careful nature it is unlikely it will survive. The rest won't OHKO through its 110 base special defense.
Let's take a look at what Surf can do:
Note: Only posting calcs for dragon resists as Draco Meteor outdamages Surf even if 2x super effective (140x1.5=210 > 95x2=190).
(1) 591 SpA Surf vs:
4 HP / 0 SpD Naive Heatran: 100%
252 HP / 240 SpD neutral Heatran: 68-80%
252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Metagross: 51-60%
208 HP / 224 SpD neutral Metagross: 42-49%
32 HP / 0 SpD neutral Scizor: 71-83%
176 HP / 176 SpD neutral Scizor: 51-60%
All of these steel types are 2HKOed by Surf, with the exception of extremely bulky Metagross. The only true "counters" for this are Blissey, Registeel, and bulky Stalk Metagross. However, only Metagross truly threatens him with a OHKO, the others must rely on Thunder Wave, possible allowing a free switchin for a CB Flygon. HP Fire can be used in the third slot, as it does enough to 2HKO Metagross(62% min).
I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to abusing the hell outta CB Flygon, Choice Specs Latios, and Magnezone(for Metagross).
EDIT: Who says Lati@s has to be used in conjunction with other ice weak dragons? DD Kingdra can easily set up on their counters(unboosted Scizor, Metagross, Blissey).
Anyways, Latias seems like it will be used on stall teams most often. It can counter Gyarados and Infernape, while providing Wish support, much like Vaporeon. However, its advantages are its higher base speed, and the ability to take down Celebi, a huge threat to stall teams because of Leech Seed + Natural Cure. I think Latias isn't broken at all.
As for Latios, even without Soul Dew, its Choice Specs Draco Meteor is more powerful than a DD'd Salamence's Outrage, without locking itself in. It 2HKOs most Scizor, doing a little over 96%, minimum against 252 HP / 16 SpD neutral Scizor. Considering that is one of the most used Pursuiters, imagine what it does to things that don't resist. Let's look at some other top threats:
Top: Most commonly used spread for pokemon A
Bottom: Bulkiest spread used for pokemon A
(2) 591 SpA Draco Meteors vs:
252 HP / 4 SpD neutral Tyranitar: 93-108%
252 HP / 216 SpD Careful Tyranitar: 69-81%
4 HP / 0 SpD Naive Heatran: 91-108%
252 HP / 240 SpD neutral Heatran: 55-66%
28 HP / 0 SpD neutral Empoleon: 88-103%
252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Empoleon: 54-63%
252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Metagross: 84-99%
208 HP / 224 SpD neutral Metagross: 67-79%
Now, given that none of these have reliable forms of recovery, Latios can easily beat them without relying on any other coverage except Draco Meteor. Metagross must predict a switch and kill it with Pursuit, or Bullet Punch it in the face. Tyranitar can threaten it with Pursuit, but without a Careful nature it is unlikely it will survive. The rest won't OHKO through its 110 base special defense.
Let's take a look at what Surf can do:
Note: Only posting calcs for dragon resists as Draco Meteor outdamages Surf even if 2x super effective (140x1.5=210 > 95x2=190).
(1) 591 SpA Surf vs:
4 HP / 0 SpD Naive Heatran: 100%
252 HP / 240 SpD neutral Heatran: 68-80%
252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Metagross: 51-60%
208 HP / 224 SpD neutral Metagross: 42-49%
32 HP / 0 SpD neutral Scizor: 71-83%
176 HP / 176 SpD neutral Scizor: 51-60%
All of these steel types are 2HKOed by Surf, with the exception of extremely bulky Metagross. The only true "counters" for this are Blissey, Registeel, and bulky Stalk Metagross. However, only Metagross truly threatens him with a OHKO, the others must rely on Thunder Wave, possible allowing a free switchin for a CB Flygon. HP Fire can be used in the third slot, as it does enough to 2HKO Metagross(62% min).
I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to abusing the hell outta CB Flygon, Choice Specs Latios, and Magnezone(for Metagross).
EDIT: Who says Lati@s has to be used in conjunction with other ice weak dragons? DD Kingdra can easily set up on their counters(unboosted Scizor, Metagross, Blissey).
Yachemence. Scizor. There's ways to beat this stuff.
The bright side to adding up on the same typing (such as this tripleDragon that Chris is suggesting) is that a "standard" team has a way to deal with everything. When you take out the pokemon that handles what you're investing in (i.e. Weavile), there's effectively nothing left to stop you (I am aware that teams hopefully have more than one way to deal with something, but clearly one is better than the other).
Actually a triple dragon doesn't sound so bad with Yache-DD 'Mence + Flamethrower. It's almost pure evil.
This........is not it at all. This is far from "sudden" as well. (I may respond to the rest of it later)
yup. good thing that isn't the reason they're being tested.
From my knowledge, it's been planned for a while >_>.
Yeah, too bad that's not the actual reason. Have you even considered how it's Smogon's goal to have a balanced metagame with as few bans as possible? Soul Dew in theory makes the Lati twins Uber and without it (also in theory) they could be viable in OU.
Vaporeon can take on Suicune without a problem and can also Baton Pass without being raped by Pursuit >_>. A thrid Gyarados/Infernape counter might actually do the metagame good since most of the time, it will take a lot to stop them from sweeping a team, same goes for Nasty Plot Azelf and Calm Mind Jirachi.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, how does Latias outstall Celebi? Since Celebi runs Thunder Wave/Leech Seed/Recover/Grass Knot the most, I don't see how that's possible since Ice Beam does shit damage to it >_>.
Latios, surprsingly is the only thing that could cause the metagame to squirm a bit, but, I doubt it'd be Uber >_>.
Scizor can just Swords Dance alongside it and OHKO with X-Scissor. Kingdra really wouldn't like repeated hits with Choice Banded Meteor Mashes if there's no Choice Band, then, Kingdra wouldn't like unboosted Earthquajes neither. Blissey can just smack it with Thunder Wave as it Dragon Dances and just weaken it with continuous attacks.
I understand smogon is trying to "balance" the metagame, however, on the same token, you are taking away an item that only works on those two pokemon, while leaving a certain pokemon named Garchomp Uber, and we all know he wouldn't be Uber without Yache Berry. It doesn't seem right to allow the Lati twins back into OU, simply because they are without Soul Dew. If smogon truly wanted to balance the metagame, they would allow Garchomp back into standards, not the Lati twins. Take away its Yache Berry, and since smogon has banned a plethora of moves, including OHKO moves, why not take off Outrage as well?
The only things Garchomp would balance don't even stand a chance against Lati@s, including Zapdos, Heatran, the one exception being Lucario, who you are better off dealing with resistances anyways, since a Close Combat followed by an Extremespeed does plenty to Garchomp to prevent any sort of sweeping.
I thought I made my point clear about Latios posting calculations to common switchins, but I guess it was your decision to not acknowledge the fact that it can take down any switchin, except Blissey or Registeel.
Oh, another thing, please don't tell me "they are Pursuit weak!" , so Careful Tyranitar destroys it! There are weaknesses to every pokemon, it is just how you measure those weaknesses or how they affect the surrounding environment that determine its tier status.
As for Celebi, Latias easily outstalls it with Safeguard + Roost/Recover or Wish+Protect, while building Calm Minds up in the process. As for Latios, Draco Meteor is more powerful against Celebi than Ice Beam, and a 591 SpA Draco Meteor does 93-109%, against a 252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Celebi. So, yes, both of them can easily beat Celebi.
The only things Garchomp would balance don't even stand a chance against Lati@s, including Zapdos, Heatran, the one exception being Lucario, who you are better off dealing with resistances anyways, since a Close Combat followed by an Extremespeed does plenty to Garchomp to prevent any sort of sweeping.
I thought I made my point clear about Latios posting calculations to common switchins, but I guess it was your decision to not acknowledge the fact that it can take down any switchin, except Blissey or Registeel.
Oh, another thing, please don't tell me "they are Pursuit weak!" , so Careful Tyranitar destroys it! There are weaknesses to every pokemon, it is just how you measure those weaknesses or how they affect the surrounding environment that determine its tier status.
As for Celebi, Latias easily outstalls it with Safeguard + Roost/Recover or Wish+Protect, while building Calm Minds up in the process. As for Latios, Draco Meteor is more powerful against Celebi than Ice Beam, and a 591 SpA Draco Meteor does 93-109%, against a 252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Celebi. So, yes, both of them can easily beat Celebi.
LOL garchomp uber because yache. that gave me a cheap little laugh. he wasnt counterable except for lugia, arceus and now in platinum with a highly specialized cresselia with the soul purpose of countering him. he 2hkod everything including lugia, arceus and cresselia. they just win because of higher speed and technically cresselia with choice scarf. yache was just real annoying.
The Yache Berry was NOT why Garchomp was banned. Seriously, why does everyone think that's the reason?
May I mention how most people would run bulkier EVs on Garchomp so it could take more hits? I mean, it had better Defensive capibilities than Swampert for god's sake >_>. May I also mention how more balanced the metagame would be if another check for certain OU sweepers is there?
I did acknowledge those calculations, why don't you read my post a bit closer? After Latias, I stated how Latios would make the metagame squirm a bit.
Careful Tyranitar, Choice Band Scizor, Choice Scarf Heracross, Adamant Tyranitar (Latias), Weavile, Celebi, Jirachi, Lucario, Rhyperior, Blissey, Swampert, Mamswine, Heatran, Suicune, Salamence, Dragonite, Flygon, Kingdra, Gyarados, Gengar, Yanmega, Machamp, Swords Dance Scizor... wow and there are a lot more Pokemon who can be considered "checks" for Lati@s.
Regarding Celebi, I only said LatiAs and with that said Leech Seed wears it down quickly, forcing it to Recover more often and who's to say that Celebi isn't going to be Calm Minding aside you as well? Then, you factor in how easy it is to bring down a mono-attacking Latias.
May I mention how most people would run bulkier EVs on Garchomp so it could take more hits? I mean, it had better Defensive capibilities than Swampert for god's sake >_>. May I also mention how more balanced the metagame would be if another check for certain OU sweepers is there?
I did acknowledge those calculations, why don't you read my post a bit closer? After Latias, I stated how Latios would make the metagame squirm a bit.
Careful Tyranitar, Choice Band Scizor, Choice Scarf Heracross, Adamant Tyranitar (Latias), Weavile, Celebi, Jirachi, Lucario, Rhyperior, Blissey, Swampert, Mamswine, Heatran, Suicune, Salamence, Dragonite, Flygon, Kingdra, Gyarados, Gengar, Yanmega, Machamp, Swords Dance Scizor... wow and there are a lot more Pokemon who can be considered "checks" for Lati@s.
Regarding Celebi, I only said LatiAs and with that said Leech Seed wears it down quickly, forcing it to Recover more often and who's to say that Celebi isn't going to be Calm Minding aside you as well? Then, you factor in how easy it is to bring down a mono-attacking Latias.
Are you telling me you're ok with Celebi's 4x Bug Weak in a game where Scizor is freaking everywhere? Azelf, Jirachi, other Celebi along with the newly OU-usage-level Flygon mean U-Turn is freaking everywhere, and frankly is one of an offensive team's best bets to taking down Celebi. Frankly, I'm scared of their very intimidating defensive typing.
Also, look at any of X-Act's stats and he'll tell you that OU is very physically driven.
Good luck. That tar is 2HKOed by Specs Surf, and OHKOed by Choice Band Earthquake or +1 Life Orbed Earthquake. It also is easily 2HKOed by Choice Band Outrage or +1 Life Orbed Outrage. That thing is NOT a surefire Latios counter.
RaikouLover, I'd have thought you of all people wouldn't be playing the Paper Counter Game.
From what I've heard, people's main complete theorymon (read: I made this up!) Uber argument is the "triple Dragon" idea might be broken. In which case, we have to ban Latios. But if "triple Dragon" is broken, who's to say that Salamence wouldn't be to blame? Just a thought, sorry if someone said it.
From what I've heard, people's main complete theorymon (read: I made this up!) Uber argument is the "triple Dragon" idea might be broken. In which case, we have to ban Latios. But if "triple Dragon" is broken, who's to say that Salamence wouldn't be to blame? Just a thought, sorry if someone said it.
yeah I mentioned that before, and I'd love to see what might happen in such a situation where "triple dragon" became too good (or just the dragon type in general caused centralization towards steel/dragon, which is what ipl suggests will happen) but Salamence was still used the most by far. I think logically we'd have to test Salamence, but I definitely have a feeling people would rather just keep Lati@s Uber to save time/preserve the current metagame.
Although I would love to debate the banning of Garchomp, my original reference to him was just a point. I do not want the mods to get upset because this thread is getting off topic, so I will stick to it.
The problem is a check for Latios must be completely different for Latias, who can carry Wish + Protect, allowing it to effectively predict which choice move the opponent is using, such as whether CB Weavile is using Ice Shard or Pursuit. If it is Ice Shard, they switch, if not, they stay in.
Bringing up "checks" for Ubers doesn't determine whether or not they are OU. I can say, Choice Scarf Weavile, Metagross, Scizor, and Lucario are all "checks" for Deoxys-A, that surely doesn't give reason to make it OU. Understandably, Deoxys-A is a little more gamebreaking than the Lati twins, but many Ubers can be checked with OUs, whether it be Deoxys with Scizor, or maybe Darkrai with Sleep Talk ScarfCross. The issue isn't whether or not there are "checks" for these pokemon, it is whether or not you are going to lose 2-3 pokemon EVERY single time.
I love how you think half of those pokemon are "checks". Rhyperior, Swampert, Heatran, Suicune, Gyarados, Machamp... All of these either don't do much to Latios's often forgotten 110 base SpD, or they are easily KOed by Dragon Pulses / Draco Meteors. Even if Latios's SpA is -6, it can switch out without fear of Pursuit. These are not checks at all, considering any Latios user with Draco Meteor + Choice Specs understands they will be switching out, no different than CB Garchomp.
As for CB Scizor, he is 2HKOed by Draco Meteor 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, and if Stealth Rock isn't up, he still does atleast 96% with 2. CB Scizor must choose Pursuit or Bullet Punch. If he Bullet Punches, while I switch in my Magnezone, you are dead. If you Pursuit, while I stay in, you are dead. You have to predict perfectly to kill him, Maybe I am waiting with my Latias, who does as much as SpecsMence with Draco Meteor, yet faster? Now you lost your "check" to my Magnezone, and you try to revenge kill with Mamoswine, who doesn't OHKO with Ice Shard.
Another thing to take note of, everything that isn't 2HKOed by Choice Specs Latios is 1-2HKOed by DD / CB Outrage or Earthquake. That seems fair.
EDIT: Being weak to Stealth Rock keeps Salamence in check, as well as the lacking special defense to switch into ScarfTran. Things like Vaporeon, Suicune, Swampert, Cresselia, etc. can counter Salamence as well. I really don't see him being Uber.
As for triple dragon, there is no way we could really tell which dragon is putting the wholes into the other team that are necessary for the next dragon to sweep, but all of the dragons can do it, so I think we could just put a cap on 2 dragons per team, which still allows for great sweeping potential, but nothing that would bring the metagame to its knees. This would need testing for sure tho.
The problem is a check for Latios must be completely different for Latias, who can carry Wish + Protect, allowing it to effectively predict which choice move the opponent is using, such as whether CB Weavile is using Ice Shard or Pursuit. If it is Ice Shard, they switch, if not, they stay in.
Bringing up "checks" for Ubers doesn't determine whether or not they are OU. I can say, Choice Scarf Weavile, Metagross, Scizor, and Lucario are all "checks" for Deoxys-A, that surely doesn't give reason to make it OU. Understandably, Deoxys-A is a little more gamebreaking than the Lati twins, but many Ubers can be checked with OUs, whether it be Deoxys with Scizor, or maybe Darkrai with Sleep Talk ScarfCross. The issue isn't whether or not there are "checks" for these pokemon, it is whether or not you are going to lose 2-3 pokemon EVERY single time.
I love how you think half of those pokemon are "checks". Rhyperior, Swampert, Heatran, Suicune, Gyarados, Machamp... All of these either don't do much to Latios's often forgotten 110 base SpD, or they are easily KOed by Dragon Pulses / Draco Meteors. Even if Latios's SpA is -6, it can switch out without fear of Pursuit. These are not checks at all, considering any Latios user with Draco Meteor + Choice Specs understands they will be switching out, no different than CB Garchomp.
As for CB Scizor, he is 2HKOed by Draco Meteor 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, and if Stealth Rock isn't up, he still does atleast 96% with 2. CB Scizor must choose Pursuit or Bullet Punch. If he Bullet Punches, while I switch in my Magnezone, you are dead. If you Pursuit, while I stay in, you are dead. You have to predict perfectly to kill him, Maybe I am waiting with my Latias, who does as much as SpecsMence with Draco Meteor, yet faster? Now you lost your "check" to my Magnezone, and you try to revenge kill with Mamoswine, who doesn't OHKO with Ice Shard.
Another thing to take note of, everything that isn't 2HKOed by Choice Specs Latios is 1-2HKOed by DD / CB Outrage or Earthquake. That seems fair.
EDIT: Being weak to Stealth Rock keeps Salamence in check, as well as the lacking special defense to switch into ScarfTran. Things like Vaporeon, Suicune, Swampert, Cresselia, etc. can counter Salamence as well. I really don't see him being Uber.
As for triple dragon, there is no way we could really tell which dragon is putting the wholes into the other team that are necessary for the next dragon to sweep, but all of the dragons can do it, so I think we could just put a cap on 2 dragons per team, which still allows for great sweeping potential, but nothing that would bring the metagame to its knees. This would need testing for sure tho.
Nobody reasonable actually believes that Salamence is currently Uber, I don't think. We're talking about the hypothetical scenario in which adding Lati@s is the "straw that breaks the camel's back" and causes the dragon type itself to dominate and centralize the metagame. Even though Lati@s would perhaps be the "cause" of the problem, if Salamence were to remain in the top 3 and "one of them has to be Uber," I'd say we'd have to test Salamence.
That just doesn't make any sense to me. Why would we introduce two new pokemon, then all of the sudden test Salamence because he makes up 1/3 of the triple dragon team? I am all for increasing the number of OU pokemon, but again, we could just place a cap on the number of dragons. Nobody seriously uses more than two as of now, do they?
EDIT: I understand what you are saying, but Salamence isn't anything gamebreaking right now. You can't add two variables to the equation, then take out your constant.
EDIT: I understand what you are saying, but Salamence isn't anything gamebreaking right now. You can't add two variables to the equation, then take out your constant.