np: UU - A New Beginning

[Friar]

@ Erazor
I definitely think you should consider building a team around Drapion. He can come in, SD, and proceed to destroy most of the metagame due to excellent coverage. Sniper +2 shots are tough for anything to take. Take into account his base 110 Def and excellent typing (one weakness), and you have a bulky powerhouse. 95 Speed is perfectly useable as well, although you will most likely have to pump this stat to give it enough speed to succeed, as many highly used mons in this tier hover at around 100 base speed.
Swords Dance, Night Slash, Earthquake, and Cross Poison with either a Scope Lens or Life Orb is going to flat out win matches, with great coverage for a physical sweeper in the tier.

Dark- STAB move to abuse, hits all but Fighting/Dark/Steel for neutral damage. That makes Dark a great STAB to have, as it is tough to resist.

Ground- Earthquake smacks Steelix or Registeel that try to wall you. While they do some good damage back with Earthquake, your +2 Earthquake can KO a weakened one. (54.52 % Minimum with +2 Earthquake from Jolly 252 Attack Life Orb Drapion to 252/252 Impish Steelix, but who runs that much bulk?) The fact that they lack recovery means that sooner rather than later Drapion can pick off Registeel and Steelix.

Poison- While not yielding anything resembling coverage, Poison allows you to combat the bulky grassers of UU. It's also STAB and offers a high critical hit chance, so a Sniper +2 Cross Poison will beat down the metagame.

-friar04-

 

[DjSturks]

Personally, I think it's unfortunate that due to the method of testing suspects right now, probably everyone will end up being banned. I am sure there is some combination of testing that would make people actually vote against the banning of certain suspects.
Personally, I hope the people allowed to vote aren't the biased kind, because I feel none of the suspects really affected me too badly, save Abomasnow (and even that only to a certain extent) and possibly Raikou (my own fault there). The rest didn't really cause too much trouble, although when Staraptor showed up, all hell broke loose, and Crobat and Froslass were just plain annoying. Most of all, I feel strongly against banning Gallade, but that's probably my team rips it to shreds. Basically, the bottom line here is: I don't feel any of the suspects really are too overpowering, although my team and semi-decent prediction skills may have helped with that.
Even more importantly, banning these suspects will lead to the overpowering of other suspects, as there are no guarantees to a balanced metagame. Even if one or two of the suspects are not banned, the metagame will still be held in check. But then again, that, like everything else in this post, is just my opinion. Anyone else feel similarly?

While I'm in agreement with you that Raikou was not all that difficult to deal with, I don't necessarily think that the way the test is being run will facilitate the banning of all the suspects. If anything, I think it help there case.

Someone stated earlier how the loss of Shaymin and Raikou would be a large boost to the likes of Milotic and Slowbro, and I think that people will realize this.

 

[Erazor]

So six suspects have been removed( or will be) from the ladder. Let's say that without these hard hitters(Staraptor and Gallade, I'm looking at you), walls like Registeel and Spiritomb become impossible to break. My question is, will we ban these walls, or will we unban the suspects? Personally, I'd prefer the latter, but that's just me. We don't need to ban everyhting under the sun.
Also, thanks to those who gave me suggestions for replacing BandRaptor, but I'm using Ambipom as my new lead. I miss the raw power though. I find that breaking Umbreon and Spiritomb is harder for me now.

 

[Veedrock]

My question is, will we ban these walls, or will we unban the suspects?

Chances are that we ban the walls. You don't introduce a threat to handle another threat. That's trying to take two wrongs and make a right.

This is exactly why OU suspect tests are in isolation, because a pokemon shouldn't be in "check" and "managable" because another questionable pokemon to handle it. Example: Deoxys-D shouldn't make OU because some other OU-voted suspects hit it hard enough that it doesn't wall everything. Eventually, you get to the point where the tiers merge because we unban things and it continuously keeps others in check.

I can try to elaborate further if I didn't word it well. OU was the best example I could come up with.

 

[Erazor]

Chances are that we ban the walls. You don't introduce a threat to handle another threat. That's trying to take two wrongs and make a right.

This is exactly why OU suspect tests are in isolation, because a pokemon shouldn't be in "check" and "managable" because another questionable pokemon to handle it. Example: Deoxys-D shouldn't make OU because some other OU-voted suspects hit it hard enough that it doesn't wall everything. Eventually, you get to the point where the tiers merge because we unban things and it continuously keeps others in check.

I can try to elaborate further if I didn't word it well. OU was the best example I could come up with.

I understand that, but that just seems... wrong. Of course, I'm not in charge of decisions around here, but it would lead to a lot of stuff being banned then. After we ban Registeel/Spiritomb, Shaymin wreaks havok(this is just for the purposes of explanation, I know that Shaymin beats them both anyway), then it's banned, then Milotic is too powerful, it's banned, then Typhlosion dominates............. it goes on. Sooner or later, we reach a point where we're back to old UU. Do we really want this to happen?

 

[guoguo]

I understand that, but that just seems... wrong. Of course, I'm not in charge of decisions around here, but it would lead to a lot of stuff being banned then. After we ban Registeel/Spiritomb, Shaymin wreaks havok(this is just for the purposes of explanation, I know that Shaymin beats them both anyway), then it's banned, then Milotic is too powerful, it's banned, then Typhlosion dominates............. it goes on. Sooner or later, we reach a point where we're back to old UU. Do we really want this to happen?

First of all, I don't think we're going to go down this slippery slope where everything ends up getting banned. Some things are gonna get banned for sure, but the UU tier has proven itself to be surprisingly stable and balanced, much more so than anyone would've predicted, which leads me to believe that not much more will be banned beyond this first set of bans. But to address your question, the UU tier was completely reconstructed because the previous tiering of UU was done based on the standards of RSE UU and theorymon. No proper test of any sort was conducted to determine what truly belonged in UU and what did not. Even if we were to end up right back where we started, we can play the tier knowing that the tier is balanced, inclusive, and created by proper testing.

 

[reachzero]

So six suspects have been removed( or will be) from the ladder. Let's say that without these hard hitters(Staraptor and Gallade, I'm looking at you), walls like Registeel and Spiritomb become impossible to break. My question is, will we ban these walls, or will we unban the suspects? Personally, I'd prefer the latter, but that's just me. We don't need to ban everyhting under the sun.
Also, thanks to those who gave me suggestions for replacing BandRaptor, but I'm using Ambipom as my new lead. I miss the raw power though. I find that breaking Umbreon and Spiritomb is harder for me now.

I think you're underestimating the ability of the metagame to adapt. There will still be plenty of threats to destroy things like Registeel and Spiritomb; Houndoom comes quickly to mind in both cases, for example. Having a slow wall on your team can be a liability as well, they are very vulnerable to Encore and Taunt, both of which are very common in UU (I've gotten six Bulk Ups with Taunt Floatzel setting up on Registeel before). There is no lack of offense in UU even without the six sUUspects, there are still plenty of excellent options like Ambipom, Buizel, Tauros, Blaziken etc. Let's see where the metagame goes before we judge it too harshly. By the way, I highly recommend Floatzel for anyone looking for a combination of power, high speed and a very fast Taunt. Taunt/Bulk Up/Waterfall/Return Floatzel is a great, great set, and I think you'll find that your Umbreon problems will disappear pretty quickly.

 

[A.P.]

Indeed, in my opinion, the banning of these suspects only serves to reveal even more offensive threats, some who are equally, or even more powerful, like Arcanine, Feraligatr, and Torterra. And you have to remember that Shaymin, who is a very dominant force, is still present.

 

[Chou Toshio]

First of all, I don't think we're going to go down this slippery slope where everything ends up getting banned. Some things are gonna get banned for sure, but the UU tier has proven itself to be surprisingly stable and balanced,

You mean because, so far, it's more balanced than OU? xD [/smug]

 

[Heysup]

Here, before people start Freaking out about Walls being out of control, please read this.

Here is a list of the best Wallbreakers. I will list the Generic walls as Registeel, Steelix, Milotic, Slowbro, Spiritomb and Chansey(Gastrodon and others arent common, but these Wallbreakers usually OHKO it anyway).*=Most effective, -=Very effective, ~=Pretty effective.

*Blaziken:
With LO, Blaziken can seriously annihilate every wall on this list. With a spread to the effect of 236atk/20spe/252Satk Blaziken can OHKO Registeel and Chansey with Superpower, While OHKOing Steelix with Fireblast(does like 96% to Registeel, so SR is needed) without SR. Without SR, Blaziken 2HKOs Slowbro with a Combo of Fire Blast and HP Electric/Grass using minimal prediction skills, well none actually. Spiritomb is also 2HKOd by Blaziken without SR, but careful with FireBlast PP(though Blaziken resists Dark Pulse, and is immune to WoW making it an amazing switch in). For Milotic, Blaziken needs SR to 2HKO most of these but it really depends on the Spread. Superpower+HP grass usually 2HKO max/max HP and Defense Bold Milotic, but that isnt as common as most of the Specially Defensive Milotics, which Superpower 2HKOs(does 65% the first turn, while doing likely around 42% ish the second time). Blaziken is faster then these walls with their Defensive EVs. Only takes 12% from SR. Note this only requires 3 Move slots because of its amazing Dual STABs, so Blaziken can function as an Agility late game sweeper, Swords Dance, Brave Bird or Focus Blast to always take care of Hariyama(best counter to Blaziken, but not very common) or Vacuum Wave to finish off faster pokemon with STAB priority. This will be even more deadly once Crobat is out of the picture as that is the Primary revenge killer for Blaziken.

*Magmortar
Magmortar is the second Fire Wallbreaker. The advantage of Magmortar is that it carries the almighty Thunderbolt. With LO, FireBlast, Cross Chop(or Focus Punch/Blast), Thunderbolt and Hidden Power (Whatever, Grass for Gastrodon i guess). Magmortar uses Fireblast to OHKO Steelix and Registeel, while it uses Thunderbolt to 2HKO Milotic and nearly OHKO Slowbro. Cross Chop is the best choice because it can use it without Prediction, 100 BP and 80% accuracy and Physical damage is usually better against Chansey then 120 Special damage with 70% Accuracy (Both 2HKOing). Focus Punch can OHKO Chansey with Prediction though. Spiritomb is 2HKOd easily with Fire Blast, but watch out with PP once again. Though it takes 25% from SR =/.

*Nidoking
Nidoking just wrecks its way through the Walls of UU. Earth Power or Fire Blast OHKOs Steelix, and EP sometimes 2HKOs Registeel, but Earthquake can be used in the "filler" slot to make it get the Guaranteed 2HKO(Superpower+EP has a higher chance of 2HKOing Registeel than 2 EPs). Thunderbolt 2HKOs Slowbro and Milotic, while Nidokings STAB move 2HKOs Spiritomb. Earthpower is best used with Superpower, so Chansey gets blown off the battlefeild while Earthquake 2HKOs as chansey cant do anything to it anyway. Nidoking is already fast-ish, so 252 Atk/252 Satk is very viable. It also takes 6% from SR. This is only slightly less effective than Blaziken and Magmortar because there are a little higher chances for a Wall to live through an attack from Nidoking because it cant ALWAYs have Earthquake and Superpower, though Chansey cant do much back if it lives through an attack due to being immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave. And also Missy can switch in on Earthquake/Whatever and set up very easily. But in its Defense, it absorbs Toxic Spikes.

-Ursaring
Ursarinmg is scary as hell with Guts and a CB, even with just Guts. Close Combat OHKOs Registeel and usually OHKOs Steelix with Guts or CB, especially with a Swords Dance(but that defeats the whole purpose of wallbreaking). Crunch and Earthquake send Spiritomb to hell and back, especially if it switches in on a WoW. Chansey is OHKOd by everything. Milotic is 2HKOd, sometimes OHKOd by Return. Slowbro is also 2HKOd by return. Also, these walls cant do anything back because Status is usually enjoyed by Ursaring.

-Shaymin
Shaymin is an excellent wallbreaker. Specs make Registeel get a chance to be 2HKOd by Earthpower(with SR), while it OHKOs pokemon such as Steelix. Milotic and Slowbro are obviously OHKOd by Seed Flare. Without Crobat running around to 4x Resist Grass, Seed Flare can be used alot more liberally as well. Spiritomb is OHKO'd by Seed Flare 2/3 times as well. Chansey doesnt even safely switch in, as it has a roughly 1/3 Chance of getting 2HKOd(SDef drop is 30%). Remember walls cant do anything back, and it can switch out and rest with ease.


These Pokemon get special mentions:

~Charizard hits everything for a ton of damage with Fire Blast/Focus Punch/HP(Grass/Elec), and can roost off SR damage, or use it for Blaze fun :D. Charizard is Blazingly fast, so its best used as a Wallbreaker that can double as a sweeper. Has trouble with Milotic though. But it should be noted, it completely walls Steelix(no one uses Stone Edge).

~Medicham also annihilates everything with a CB'd Thunderpunch/HJK/Ice Punch/Psycho Cut. Has slight Trouble getting in, and is far more reliant on prediction. Has trouble with Spiritomb.

~Honchkrow can run a good wall breaking set, while still trapping Ghosts and choiced sleepers/EQers/Psychics/whatever. Superpower hits Registeel for around 80%, and Steelix for around 60%(i think...). Heat Wave does minimal damage to anything. So it has trouble breaking though the physical walls if they arent damaged slightly first, but other than that Spiritomb, Chansey, Milotic(sometimes) and Slowbro(sometims) get torn to peices. Though it doesnt break walls as effectively as the others, it has another function with Stab Pursuit and Sucker Punch.


I may add to this list later, but i cant really think of anything else.


If you have trouble breaking walls, use one of these pokemon in your team. Once a Wall comes in its easy to start either Forcing the Walls out and OHKOing a sweeper, or hitting another wall with severe damage. Gallade and Staraptor gone especially will make many more people use these walls, so take advantage of the Pure Defensive pokemon being used and crush them!

I hope this helps.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think people should be open to re-testing Pokemon we ban, should we generally believe it is the right thing to do. We also need to decide when to stop this whole process. We could go nominating, and then banning suspects forever, to be honest.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Wall-breaking-- it's not like people don't know there are pokemon fully capable of doing the job. Magmorter and Blaziken in particular could perform this task even against an OU stall team. The fact of the matter is though, that it's not the simplest task even for them (and if it were, they'd be OU xD). Well, hopefully a UU stall team is easier for them to break than an OU one.

 

[DjSturks]

I was curious to know if anyone has been having any success with Umbreon recently. As useful as he is, I haven't seen much of him. 252/252 special defensive Umby has been serving me very well by easily surviving almost any special attack thrown at him, providing Wish support to my team, and providing excellent coverage next to Weezing.

Also worth mentioning, is the fact that payback would hit Raikou with 252 def for a minimum of 23.05% damage, frequently breaking his sub, while taking only 32.99% - 38.83% from a max SpA T-Bolt. Payback also prevents Mismagius from setting up on you as Umbreon laughs at HP Fighting.

 

[Heysup]

@Wall-breaking-- it's not like people don't know there are pokemon fully capable of doing the job. Magmorter and Blaziken in particular could perform this task even against an OU stall team. The fact of the matter is though, that it's not the simplest task even for them (and if it were, they'd be OU xD). Well, hopefully a UU stall team is easier for them to break than an OU one.

That was for all of the people complaining about Walls w/o Gallade and Staraptor, who clearly "dont know there are pokemon fully capable of doing the job". Also, take into consideration that Magmortar/Blaziken were only BL in the first place because they were Outclassed by Infernape.

 

[Scoopapa]

I don't really get why people say Registeel is a Shaymin check. If it has earth power, it wins, unless it's like a defensive Shaymin vs. a curse rest registeel. Specs makes it go faster, but it's hardly necessary. Not to mention choiced ground attacks are dangerous for the user. Honestly Registeel is huge setup fodder for a lot of stuff (I have a team with subpunch Azumarill and Regigigas that just loves Registeel.)

 

[the_artic_one]

Modest specs shaymin earth power vs 252hp/252/spd +spd nature registeel:
40.93% - 48.35%

life orb:
35.71% - 41.76%

leftovers
27.47% - 32.14%

 

[umbarsc]

And Registeel is only Careful half the time, has max HP 1/10 of the time, and has rest only 18% of the time. Meanwhile, Shaymin carries a healing move well over 65% of the time and has solid defenses, meaning that Shaymin will usually win against Registeel.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Not to mention leech seed in the equation.

 

[Relictivity]

Just curious, when does the ban actually take place? I was playing yesterday and came up with none other than our good friend Abomanasnow. Hopefully it's this weekend, or monday, because I think next week has heavy homework.

I think a rise in Max Sp Defense/HP + SpDef Nature RT Registeel will occur, exactly for the reason outlined. Survivng two SE Shaymin CSpec'd Earth Powers isn't necessarily easy. Who knows, if I decide to go for a different team strategy, I might even run it.

 

[Erazor]

I've already removed the suspects from my team, and it looks pretty effective. And now Mismagius gets to shine! I would have preferred to keep Missy along with Raikou, but it will be banned soon, so...

Just curious, when does the ban actually take place? I was playing yesterday and came up with none other than our good friend Abomanasnow.

In PR, they're still deciding on what to do for the rating resets, so until they take a decision, the ladder keeps the suspects.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

I really don't need see the need of banning Raikou. It's not even considered "broken" in UU like the other ones that stick out like a sore thumb, e.g Staraptor and Abomasnow are obvious ones. Raikou is very limited in terms with it's attack, it's either Thunderbolt and HP [Ice] or Thunderbolt, Hp [Ice] and Signal Beam/Shadow Ball with Calm Mind as it's boosting attack. It isn't even "broken" material in UU simply because common pokemon like Registeel or Steelix keeps it in check and it's "alright" defensive stat shouldn't even be in discussion because there are plrenty of priority users in UU to damage it before laying down a sub. Seismic Toss Chansey for one beats Raikou 1v1 which clearly makes it "not broken". Standard CM set will take at least 3 CM's to 4HKO it with leftovers, not to mention the fact it has access to softboiled.

A guy like Staraptor is in "broken" category because it destroys it's counters and it has excellent typing for a Choice user paired with a great ability.

Spiritomb, Registeel, Steelix

Those are the top 3 that keep it in check to handle it "nicely", but unlike Raikou which fails to destroy its counters, Staraptor could shred apart these walls with CB slapped to it and Scarf could take it decently. Both standard Steelix and Registeel spread suffer 2HKO on CB Raptors Close Combat with SR factored in. The only "great" counter to it is Luxray which is hardly used, but it really mainly for Staraptor which centralizes the pokemon.

What I'm really trying to say is that Raikou shouldnt even be banned or be near from getting banned because it can't beat it's counters and it's not broken.

 

[Relictivity]

I really don't need see the need of banning Raikou. It's not even considered "broken" in UU like the other ones that stick out like a sore thumb, e.g Staraptor and Abomasnow are obvious ones. Raikou is very limited in terms with it's attack, it's either Thunderbolt and HP [Ice] or Thunderbolt, Hp [Ice] and Signal Beam/Shadow Ball with Calm Mind as it's boosting attack. It isn't even "broken" material in UU simply because common pokemon like Registeel or Steelix keeps it in check and it's "alright" defensive stat shouldn't even be in discussion because there are plrenty of priority users in UU to damage it before laying down a sub. Seismic Toss Chansey for one beats Raikou 1v1 which clearly makes it "not broken". Standard CM set will take at least 3 CM's to 4HKO it with leftovers, not to mention the fact it has access to softboiled.

A guy like Staraptor is in "broken" category because it destroys it's counters and it has excellent typing for a Choice user paired with a great ability.

Spiritomb, Registeel, Steelix

Those are the top 3 that keep it in check to handle it "nicely", but unlike Raikou which fails to destroy its counters, Staraptor could shred apart these walls with CB slapped to it and Scarf could take it decently. Both standard Steelix and Registeel spread suffer 2HKO on CB Raptors Close Combat with SR factored in. The only "great" counter to it is Luxray which is hardly used, but it really mainly for Staraptor which centralizes the pokemon.

What I'm really trying to say is that Raikou shouldnt even be banned or be near from getting banned because it can't beat it's counters and it's not broken.

Registeel and Steelix serve as good counters if Raikou does not have Calm Minds boosting it. Also note that by Subbing down Raikou you will be activating it's berry.

As for priority moves, not everyone uses them, just as not everyone uses Rapid Spin.

 

[Erazor]

I really don't need see the need of banning Raikou. It's not even considered "broken" in UU like the other ones that stick out like a sore thumb, e.g Staraptor and Abomasnow are obvious ones. Raikou is very limited in terms with it's attack, it's either Thunderbolt and HP [Ice] or Thunderbolt, Hp [Ice] and Signal Beam/Shadow Ball with Calm Mind as it's boosting attack. It isn't even "broken" material in UU simply because common pokemon like Registeel or Steelix keeps it in check and it's "alright" defensive stat shouldn't even be in discussion because there are plrenty of priority users in UU to damage it before laying down a sub. Seismic Toss Chansey for one beats Raikou 1v1 which clearly makes it "not broken". Standard CM set will take at least 3 CM's to 4HKO it with leftovers, not to mention the fact it has access to softboiled.

Take a look at my vote on Raikou which survived Caelum and Tangerine.

- I feel that Raikou is a powerful pokemon that can sweep a majority of the metagame with ease. So it is my first suspect.

Quote:
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
Let us establish the set used for my calcs:

Raikou@ Shuca Berry
Timid, 252 Spe, 252 Sp. atk,6 def
Thunderbolt
Calm Mind
Hidden Power Ground/Ice
Substitute/Shadow Ball/Signal beam

These are the most common moves used by Raikou(I know, its movepool is shitty)

Raikou finds it incredibly easy to set up in the UU environment. Its decent bulk allows it to take a hit, CM, and then fulfill the offensive charecteristic,i.e., destroy everything in sight. Your only hope is to outrun it and deliver a good hit, or use scarfers. However, Raikou has 115 base speed. In UU, this is only outrun by Crobat, Sceptile, Swellow, and Electrode.
Crobat cannot hope to beat Raikou. Ever.

Sceptile, admittedly, has a very good chance of beating Raikou.

Earthquake with max+ attack and Life Orb on min HP Raikou: 92% - 109%

Max+ attack Sceptile is not common. The mixed sweeper would not run that much attack. Plus, there's Shuca Berry.

Quote:
45 | Sceptile | 3536 | 4.05
Leaf storm, choice specs, neutral nature on the same Raikou: Exactly the same as earthquake.

This assumes that Raikou does not have a Calm Mind boost.

Electrode can not do anthing apart from Exploding.

Neutral nature max attack(lol) Explosion on 40 HP Raikou: 58 - 68%

It should also be noted that none of these pokemon bar Electrode and Sceptile can even switch in safely. So, the only option left is to use Scarfers to revenge kill. And depending whether Raikou is behind a sub or not, it might be for vain.
Also, the very fact that you need to revenge it means that it has served its purpose.
Raikou, meanwhile, hits back with T-bolt, Shadow ball, signal beam, or a hidden power. With 115 Special attack and a calm mind boost, it annihilates nearly the whole metagame.

This is obvious, Raikou has multiple viable sets. So I could go into a game, be prepared for Sub CM Raikou, and WHAM! Specs Raikou nails me. So Raikou, while not as unpredictable as Clefable and Salamence(forgive the OU comparison), isn't as predictable as Walrein or heck, Staraptor.
The Shuca Berry set has served me well over the test, allowing Raikou to survive DD Feraligatr Earthquakes and OHKO him to hell.

So, the counters.

Registeel, Steelix, Chansey, Regice

Chansey is a ridiculous pokemon that no one should be forced to use. It is set up fodder for a lot of stuff, and apart from walling raikou, does almost nothing in a metagame with Staraptor, Shaymin, Gallade, and Mismagius running amok.

Steelix is regarded as the best counter to Raikou.

+1 neutral nature Hidden power Ground/Fire on standard steelix(354 HP, 200 sp.def) : 72 - 82 %

while Steelix OHKOs with Earthquake? No! Shuca Berry lets it survive the earthquake, and finish it off. And if Steelix switches in on Hidden power, it's toast.

By the way, Shuca Berry isn't a gimmick.

Registeel, my personal counter to this dog.

+1 Neutral nature Thunderbolt on max HP, max+ special defence registeel: 31 - 37%

This is one of the only things that can take more than 2 hits from Raikou, and one third of all Registeels run Very High - Max Sp.Def EVs according to DJD's stats.

Regice walls it almost completely, but can't do much back. Raikou can just switch out and come back later, while Regice has to take SR damage every time it switches in to wall it. If Raikou gets one CM off, its subs are unbreakable by Regices Ice Beam, allowing it to eventually reach +6, and then god help Regice. Regice has Seismic Toss, but only one fourth of all Regice run it.

Quote:
54 | Regice | 3082 | 3.53
As you can see, even Regice isn't used very much.

So to sum up, I say that Raikou is a suspect based on the offensive charecteristic of an uber.

Originally Posted by Fat Tangerine
Double Checking: Raikou - Makes a very good case for Raikou's offensive characteristics, and the lack of many Pokemon to do something back to it, and goes through many cases. Accepted.

Just because Chansey stops it one on one doesn't mean that it isn't BL material. In fact, the whole " It has counters, so it's not uber/BL " argument is invalid. What I mean to say is that just because something does have a counter or two, doesn't mean that it's not BL.

As for it's movepool - it may be limited, but it has everything required to function viably. Two move coverage with T-Bolt and HP Ice, with Shadow ball or Signal Beam for extra kicks is pretty good, I'd say.
Even Staraptor has a limited movepool, but that doesn't affect it in the least.
So "small movepool" isn't a valid arguement.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Take a look at my vote on Raikou which survived Caelum and Tangerine.




Just because Chansey stops it one on one doesn't mean that it isn't BL material. In fact, the whole " It has counters, so it's not uber/BL " argument is invalid. What I mean to say is that just because something does have a counter or two, doesn't mean that it's not BL.

As for it's movepool - it may be limited, but it has everything required to function viably. Two move coverage with T-Bolt and HP Ice, with Shadow ball or Signal Beam for extra kicks is pretty good, I'd say.
Even Staraptor has a limited movepool, but that doesn't affect it in the least.
So "small movepool" isn't a valid arguement.

After reading that I don't think slapping Shuca Berry on it solves the problem. I rarely or never seen anyone use a Shucca Berry on a SubCM set which is totally ruined because it's not gaining any hp which actually helps it for survability. With Shucca Berry, this is Chansey's best time to take advantage of leftover-less Raikou which Raikou can't do anything against but manage to pinch Chanset even with 2 CM's.

Don't forget Raikou also speed ties with Ambipom Fake Out removes it's Sub or damages it's "decent" defense and probably kills it with Return or Double Hit. Not much you could do.

Steelix is regarded as the best counter to Raikou.

+1 neutral nature Hidden power Ground/Fire on standard steelix(354 HP, 200 sp.def) : 72 - 82 %

This is exactly what I mean from limited movepool. It needs Hidden power to fend off with it's counters, so it looses it's coverage. With Hp [Ice] out of the place, things like Claydol, Shaymin, etc. will come to it with no problem thus preventing it from "being broken".

I think with a larger movepool it will be near broken, but relying on hidden power to fend off counters doesnt make it broken.

To make it clear, limited movepool, weak defenses (poor mans Suicune), counterable, in general it really isn't "broken" or BL material for its offensive characteristic to rip open its counters and destroy apart an entire team.
Counters listed handle it nicely especially Chansey.

 

[Erazor]

To make it clear, limited movepool, weak defenses (poor mans Suicune), counterable, in general it really isn't "broken" or BL material for its offensive characteristic to rip open its counters and destroy apart an entire team.
Counters listed handle it nicely especially Chansey.

Which part of "just because something does have a counter or two, doesn't mean that it's not BL" don't you understand? The OC of an uber(or BL) states "a significant portion of the metagame" not "the whole metagame"metagame". Raikou destroys a significant portion.
Shuca berry adds to its survivability in a sense, as it eliminates its only weakness. Its the same thing as Garchomp - Yache Berry lets you take the hit while you SD, then pwnage ensues. In this case, its Calm Mind, not SD.

A counter must be able to switch in safely and threaten him, right? Well, Steelix can switch in safely on Thunderbolt or CM, but not on HP. And as my calcs show, Raikou eliminates Steelix before Steelix can do the same.