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Stop Using Him! (Dragonite Discussion)
- Thread starter RaikouLover
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how did I miss this last time I logged on? seriously, Dnite's probably my second favorite pokemon(sorry, but I have loved charizard since my first time though a pokemon game). I'm glad someone's pointing out the differences. becuase I always thought it stupid to try to compare pokemon to each other unless they were practically identical. and these two dragons are not. I've used a different heal bell nite befre but your set looks better. very nice thread RL
Dragonite can be anything honestly. Please, go out into the metagame and find me the pokemon with better defenses/attacks that can be a cleric, physical sweeper, special sweeper, wall breaker, revenge killer, and a status abuser. If you can I will eat my computer.
Dragonite and Salamence are the epitome of "practically identical"
The problem is that Dragonite can't do them all at once.
Of course, who can argue against how awesome Dragonite looks over Salamence. Dragonite looks like fucking Barney the dinosaur, while Salamence looks like your average dragon from Runescape. And we all know how much that sucks.
Dragonite also has a superior special movepool to mence, with Modest ScarfNite running Ice Beam laughing at the fugly dwagon's face.
Needless to say, my Dragonite breedig hits a snitch with my complete and utter lack of Adamant Ditto. Shit.
Dragonite also has a superior special movepool to mence, with Modest ScarfNite running Ice Beam laughing at the fugly dwagon's face.
Needless to say, my Dragonite breedig hits a snitch with my complete and utter lack of Adamant Ditto. Shit.
The only thing that actually got me from using Dragonite is the ability to survive those pesky Ice Shards at full health. Hell, that was back in D/P I might try to use this guy again.
Something you might find interesting: My Porygon2 is a good counter to DD Salamence, but it can't take on Dragonite well at all. Not being able to Trace Intimidate makes it harder to come in, and Porygon2 just gets owned by Superpower. So, teams that depend on one to stop Dragon sweeps are in a tight spot (as rare as that is).
I actually find Dragonite harder to counter than Salamence, not just for those reasons but also because it is just so rediculously unpredictable. It can potentially destroy just about any switch-in. It's only limited by its "meh" speed (before Dragon Dance or the rare Agility) and the fact it can only have 4 moves at once.
Also, one more thing, while I'm already posting here:
Why is it that people use Salamence for its higher speed and Special Attack, then go and use sets like this:
Edit: Yeah, I figured there was a good reason. I didn't intend to be a jerk about it.
I actually find Dragonite harder to counter than Salamence, not just for those reasons but also because it is just so rediculously unpredictable. It can potentially destroy just about any switch-in. It's only limited by its "meh" speed (before Dragon Dance or the rare Agility) and the fact it can only have 4 moves at once.
Also, one more thing, while I'm already posting here:
Why is it that people use Salamence for its higher speed and Special Attack, then go and use sets like this:
For some reason, a specially bulky and somewhat slow dragon is "outclassed" when it's named Dragonite, but here's Salamence trying to imitate it. I know this isn't a common set, but why is this better than Dragonite?Salamence Analysis said:
Edit: Yeah, I figured there was a good reason. I didn't intend to be a jerk about it.
Are you serious? The only thing they share is their typing. Everything else is completely different.
Then simply don't invest any speed EVs in Dragonite.
thanks for posting what I would. when I choose pokemon I don't look at something and automatically say, "OH, it's outclassed by so and so." what you need to do is see if it fits your needs. some teams function so much better with Salamence then Dragonite, and vice versa. they shouldn't be compared when they can be so different
FUCK YES DRAGONITE! my username was even based on him. i usually run choice scarf dragonite, which isn't really seen, but can be an AWESOME revenge killer.
Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 26 Atk/230 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderpunch/thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Superpower/Earthquake
This is something i use a lot that revenge kills everything. outspeeds scarftran, which is the original reason why i made this thing.
this trumps salamence because:
-superpower
can take out both bliss and heatran, especially when heatran switch in thinking that can resist the outrage.
-thunderpunch
can hit bulky waters harder than thunderfang.
I prefer this set over salamence because people don't suspect it as much, can take more hits, and its a fucking dragonite. sure, salamence has higher stats if it uses this set, but this still gets the job done very well. Stall teams really don't like this thing.
Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 26 Atk/230 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderpunch/thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Superpower/Earthquake
This is something i use a lot that revenge kills everything. outspeeds scarftran, which is the original reason why i made this thing.
this trumps salamence because:
-superpower
can take out both bliss and heatran, especially when heatran switch in thinking that can resist the outrage.
-thunderpunch
can hit bulky waters harder than thunderfang.
I prefer this set over salamence because people don't suspect it as much, can take more hits, and its a fucking dragonite. sure, salamence has higher stats if it uses this set, but this still gets the job done very well. Stall teams really don't like this thing.
Which is why dragonite is good. people never know which one you're doing.
Um, just because Dragonite can use a few 'gimimcks' better than Salamence doesn't mean anything considering you shouldn't be using that kind of set in the first place, example, Blissey's Toxic/FT set. o_O
the thing is, they're not gimick sets. Dragonite can pull almost any kind of set(not a pure wall, but I said almost) and pull it off well. it's more like a jack of all trades then a king of one.
@ Aeroblacktyl: And who the hell isn't suspicious of Blissey using those two moves(Toxic+Flamethrower) on the same set, or even Thunder Wave? The fact that Dragonite is typically seen as a sweeper or wall breaker, with access to Superpower, Fire Blast, Aqua Tail, EQ, Fire Punch, etc. means steel types won't switch directly into it, thus you have poisoned a general counter(ie bulky water) for the rest of the match. It works in a similar fashion as Heatran, except Dragonite can still set up Light Screen for your sweepers and tank against random special attackers like Heatran and Zapdos.
Really your argument is futile, as Dragonite CAN pull off that set to a higher degree of success as Blissey, but unfortunately as discussed in the gimmicks thread you will be facing pretty much the same 2-3 people on Ladder some days, so they will catch on.
Still, pokemon isn't all about Shoddy battle, and Dragonite is far more accessible on Wifi than WishBliss...
Really your argument is futile, as Dragonite CAN pull off that set to a higher degree of success as Blissey, but unfortunately as discussed in the gimmicks thread you will be facing pretty much the same 2-3 people on Ladder some days, so they will catch on.
Still, pokemon isn't all about Shoddy battle, and Dragonite is far more accessible on Wifi than WishBliss...
The thing about comparing Dragonite to Salamence is that they still both lose to "Ice Attack" and "Dragon Attack". I guess by running a really defensive Dragonite set you can avoid this, but then you get outrun by the slower heavy hitters like Tyranitar and Metagross. I do not see any reason to run DD Dragonite over Salamence when they will both usually be OHKOed after SR damage anyway.
The Bulky Light Screen set makes Dragonite a good Scarftran switch-in I guess, but it is an extremely bad choice in this metagame. It give your opponent a free Swords Dance with Scizor, or Agility with Metagross, or Spikes / SR with Skarm and Forretress. Toxic Heatran is a huge pain even if you run Lum Berry. And it will still lose to anything with Status even with Lum Berry, since your reduced attack will fail to OHKO things like Rotom and Celebi even with a Dragon Dance.
The Heal Bell set is certainly unique for a dragon, but on a defensive team you are much, much better off using Blissey or Celebi to do the same thing, since they have far superior defenses and better support movepools.
The Toxic set is better than a similar set on Salamence I suppose, but why would anyone use it over Zapdos? It might have better defenses, but the extra speed is a huge deal, since Zapdos isn't outsped by Tyranitar and Adamant Metagross and base 100s and such, and set up Light Screen in front of gobs of things that Dragonite cannot. Besides that, Pressure makes Zapdos a much bigger threat against Heatran, 125 base Special Attack and STAB lets Zapdos do much better damage, and the lack of a 4x Ice Weakness lets it stop Infernape.
The only significant advantage Dragonite has over Salamence is Superpower, since it can OHKO both Blissey and Heatran without having to choose between Brick Break and Earthquake. So Dragonite is good tech against Stall teams, but that's about it.
To sum up: The best sets for both Dragonite and Salamence are sweeper sets. Salamence has better Speed and attacking stats, and its lower defense is irrelevant since they are both usually OHKOed. Dragonite's support sets are generally outclassed by things like Blissey, Celebi, and Zapdos; the former two do not have to deal with an SR weakness, and the latter two have a significant speed, advantage, and all three have better abilities. Dragonite's only useful advantage over Salamence is Superpower, but due to Dragonite's mediocre speed it is only especially useful against stall teams.
The Bulky Light Screen set makes Dragonite a good Scarftran switch-in I guess, but it is an extremely bad choice in this metagame. It give your opponent a free Swords Dance with Scizor, or Agility with Metagross, or Spikes / SR with Skarm and Forretress. Toxic Heatran is a huge pain even if you run Lum Berry. And it will still lose to anything with Status even with Lum Berry, since your reduced attack will fail to OHKO things like Rotom and Celebi even with a Dragon Dance.
The Heal Bell set is certainly unique for a dragon, but on a defensive team you are much, much better off using Blissey or Celebi to do the same thing, since they have far superior defenses and better support movepools.
The Toxic set is better than a similar set on Salamence I suppose, but why would anyone use it over Zapdos? It might have better defenses, but the extra speed is a huge deal, since Zapdos isn't outsped by Tyranitar and Adamant Metagross and base 100s and such, and set up Light Screen in front of gobs of things that Dragonite cannot. Besides that, Pressure makes Zapdos a much bigger threat against Heatran, 125 base Special Attack and STAB lets Zapdos do much better damage, and the lack of a 4x Ice Weakness lets it stop Infernape.
The only significant advantage Dragonite has over Salamence is Superpower, since it can OHKO both Blissey and Heatran without having to choose between Brick Break and Earthquake. So Dragonite is good tech against Stall teams, but that's about it.
To sum up: The best sets for both Dragonite and Salamence are sweeper sets. Salamence has better Speed and attacking stats, and its lower defense is irrelevant since they are both usually OHKOed. Dragonite's support sets are generally outclassed by things like Blissey, Celebi, and Zapdos; the former two do not have to deal with an SR weakness, and the latter two have a significant speed, advantage, and all three have better abilities. Dragonite's only useful advantage over Salamence is Superpower, but due to Dragonite's mediocre speed it is only especially useful against stall teams.
No, P-2 is a rather fail counter for salamence. Gyarados, yes-- salamence, no. If I had a penny for everytime I heard someone bitch about about their P-2 getting Draco Meteor'd . . . >.> Draco Meteor DESTROYS it, and in the early-mid game (when P-2 is best set to counter stuff with its surprise appearence and tracing), it's more likely to run into Specs/Mix sets than the dancing sets that try to sweep late game (at least against a good opponent . . .). Over 40% of salamences are carrying draco meteor.
Even with no superpower, it's not like p-2 will be happy to get brick-breaked either . . . and yes, brick break is a real possibility.
edit-- Will also likely echo most of what Tay is saying.
Well I think people are confused as to how Dragonite differentiates itself from Celebi and Blissey when it comes to Heal Bell. Dragonite has resistances to fighting and bug, two attacking types that are becoming increasingly more common and that hit Blissey and Celebi very hard(except fighting on the ladder). Dragonite is also not Pursuit bait, meaning it can Heal Bell while forcing something like Heatran out, without worrying that Tyranitar may come in and wreck you with Pursuit. I know, most Blissey run Wish+Protect, however that does not matter when TTar is doing over 50% and you don't have lefties recovery thanks to sandstream. I think we all know that stalling isn't worth it without Toxic damage...
I honestly run the old Yache Berry Outraging set, except with Adamant > Jolly and enough speed to outrun Celebi and Jolly Tyranitar. With Roost and Earthquake, it can fend off threats very easily. When up against a bulky water you simply Outrage as Yache reduces the damage. The set itself works, but I agree Adamant > Jolly in all cases of DD.
TAY, do you realize that after a NP + Stealth Rock Infernape OHKOs Zapdos with Fire Blast? Dragonite should be able to fend them off quite easily. Most Infernape shouldn't even use HP Ice, considering Fire Blast OHKOs Salamence and Flygon after SR damage... If they are still running HP Ice, then that is just pure ignorance, but sorry if I am using examples of sets people don't even run.
I honestly run the old Yache Berry Outraging set, except with Adamant > Jolly and enough speed to outrun Celebi and Jolly Tyranitar. With Roost and Earthquake, it can fend off threats very easily. When up against a bulky water you simply Outrage as Yache reduces the damage. The set itself works, but I agree Adamant > Jolly in all cases of DD.
TAY, do you realize that after a NP + Stealth Rock Infernape OHKOs Zapdos with Fire Blast? Dragonite should be able to fend them off quite easily. Most Infernape shouldn't even use HP Ice, considering Fire Blast OHKOs Salamence and Flygon after SR damage... If they are still running HP Ice, then that is just pure ignorance, but sorry if I am using examples of sets people don't even run.
Um, no-- I'd say they should run hp ice. On virtue that mix-ape is pretty damn shitty at setting up and sweeping with nasty plot. It is NOT fast enough to sweep in this metagame, which means it needs to get in as much damage as possible with the few turns it has before being force out. HP Ice is much more useful on average than nasty plot. >.> Heck, even the stats know this as HP Ice appears almost double the time nasty plot does.
On the same token though, I will point out that even without nasty plot Overheat can 1hko zappy after SR damage.
One thing that people should consider is finding a balance point where overheat/fire blast can be fully utilized while considering some more ATK and Stone Edge over HP Ice or Nasty Plot. Even on the mixed set, the capacity to hit all these flyers-- Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Zappy for super effective. A nice physical hit to Latias switch-ins isn't bad either. Of course then flygon shats on you but nothing's perfect right? Besides, scarf flygon is probably going to shat on you anyway . . . oh, and if you can predict the flygon switch in, Close Combat leaves a huge dent anyway . . .
On the same token though, I will point out that even without nasty plot Overheat can 1hko zappy after SR damage.
One thing that people should consider is finding a balance point where overheat/fire blast can be fully utilized while considering some more ATK and Stone Edge over HP Ice or Nasty Plot. Even on the mixed set, the capacity to hit all these flyers-- Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Zappy for super effective. A nice physical hit to Latias switch-ins isn't bad either. Of course then flygon shats on you but nothing's perfect right? Besides, scarf flygon is probably going to shat on you anyway . . . oh, and if you can predict the flygon switch in, Close Combat leaves a huge dent anyway . . .
The Dragonite I'm currently running:
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/56 Atk/72 Def/130 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
Notes on this one:
Dragonite heavily damages but fails to OHKO Dragons with Dragon Claw. Catching one on a switch in may cost your opponent a match.
Dragonite survives standard Heatran Explosion, and should it not explode can OHKO with Earthquake.
Dragonite can defeat Jirachi, even one that carries Ice Punch.
Dragonite can not be flinched and is thus easily able to counter any of those Serene Grace flinch abusers.
Dragonite can PP stall (barring critical hits on Dragon Claw turns) bulky Waters even if they have Ice Beam if it is faster, even in a sandstorm.
Dragonite can counter many special threats due to its decent coverage and many resistances.
And best of all, Salamence can't do it!
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/56 Atk/72 Def/130 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
Notes on this one:
Dragonite heavily damages but fails to OHKO Dragons with Dragon Claw. Catching one on a switch in may cost your opponent a match.
Dragonite survives standard Heatran Explosion, and should it not explode can OHKO with Earthquake.
Dragonite can defeat Jirachi, even one that carries Ice Punch.
Dragonite can not be flinched and is thus easily able to counter any of those Serene Grace flinch abusers.
Dragonite can PP stall (barring critical hits on Dragon Claw turns) bulky Waters even if they have Ice Beam if it is faster, even in a sandstorm.
Dragonite can counter many special threats due to its decent coverage and many resistances.
And best of all, Salamence can't do it!
That's a pretty short sighted statement. For one, they both use Dragon Dance so you can eliminate "Dragon Attack" from there. As for Ice attack, yes, but how is that an argument? "Use of Pokemon A and B doesn't matter because they both lose to Ice." And actually, there is a myriad of things that won't KO Dragonite after Stealth Rock that will KO Salamence (Heatran Dragon Pulses, Scizor Bullet Punch even after LO recoil, etc.).
I wouldn't say bad choice, but yes it does require a ton of support (namely steel elimination). It works very well on those double-dragon teams that focus on that strategy.
Not everyone runs defensive teams... It is a nice fit for a "balanced team." Many people (myself included), won't opt for complete stall, or consider Blissey to be too much of a liability to use.
Why would you run SpecsMence over Latias? They have different targets! Dragonite lures in Bulky Waters, where as Zapdos lures in Blissey who won't be Toxic stalled. Zapdos also lures in Tyranitar and Rhyperior... and unless you have a Substute up already, good luck stalling them. And how the hell is Dragonite outsped by Tyranitar? The only Tyranitar sets that actually outspeed that Dragonite are the Dragon Dancers who have all but ceased to exist thanks to Scizor being on every team. And Adamant Metagross doesn't outspeed Dragonite either... As for setting up Light Screens on things Dragonite cannot... what examples are you referring to? Zapdos walls mostly physical threats, so your best bet is to Light Screen on the switch. Of the pokemon between Zapdos and Dragonite in speed that use special attacks, you have:
Celebi - walled by both
CM Life Orb Cune - Dragonite has no business fighting to begin with
Zapdos - Dragonite stands up to HP Iceless Zapdos quite fine
Rotom - can paralyze both, but doesn't fair particularly good or bad
CM Jirachi - will set up on both anyway (and this is assuming you are timid max speed)
Remember, most special attackers are faster then both to begin with (Azelf, Gengar, Infernape, Starmie to name a few).
No, the best sets for Salamence are the sweeper sets. Dragonite can do many different things depending on what your team needs. And the only things that can OHKO Dragonite are super effective attacks, or shit boosted by Swords Dance, etc. Even Choice Specs users like Jolteon and Alakazam fail to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Dragon Pulse is probably your best bet in OU thanks to everything in investing in Defense. It also has a higher natural base power which does offset the lower attack stat. I mean, no one says you cant use Dragon Claw... or even Draco Meteor for that matter.
Lol, you must have bad luck! That is the beauty of all Toxic-stallers, they are epic fail without substitute (which you can theoretically put on there if you run T-Spike support)
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