Evasion: Hit or Miss?

[Every1XplodeNOW]

I have decided to change my view from supporting Evasion Clause to opposing it and supporting the inclusion of Double Team in our current OU metagame.



Here's the Evasion modifiers:

-6: 300% (9/3) chance of a 100% base accuracy move hitting
-5: 266.7% (8/3)
-4: 233.3% (7/3)
-3: 200% (6/3)
-2: 166.7% (5/3)
-1: 133.3% (4/3)
0: 100% (3/3)
+1: 75% (3/4) (3/(3+1))
+2: 60% (3/5) (3/(3+2))
+3: 50% (3/6)
+4: 42.9% (3/7)
+5: 37.5% (3/8)
+6: 33.3% (3/9)

If +9 was obtainable, the chance would be 25% (3/(3+9)) = (3/12).


Here's the defence modifiers:
-6: * 400% damage dealt
-5: * 350% damage dealt
-4: * 300% damage dealt
-3: * 250% damage dealt
-2: * 200% damage dealt
-1: * 150% damage dealt
0: * 100% damage dealt
+1: * 67% damage dealt
+2: * 50% damage
+3: * 40% damage
+4: * 33% damage
+5: * 28% damage
+6: * 25% damage


So let's say there's two pokemon with the same stats. One has +6 Evasion, and one has +6 Defense. Now let's say there is a Rattata that only knows Quick Attack and every time it hits, it does exactly 100 damage to both of these pokemon excluding the effect of damage modifiers.

The pokemon with +6 Evasion has a 33.3% chance of being hit by a 100 base accuracy power move. Chances are that if a Rattata used Quick Attack on this pokemon 3 times, it would hit once, and that pokemon would take 100 damage. If that Rattata used Quick Attack on the +6 Defense pokemon, each of the Quick Attacks would hit, but they would only deal 25% of the damage they are meant to do. Each Quick Attack would deal 25 damage, and the pokemon takes 75 Damage.


This is an example backed up by the data. Statistically, Defence boosts are better than Evasion boosts. If +9 modifiers were possible, statistically, +9 Evasion is equal to +6 Defense, for that is when the accuracy of moves on a pokemon would decrease to 25% (3/12). This would imply that Cosmic Power/Stockpile is more broken than Double Team, for it is more likely to reduce the overall damage that a pokemon will take.


Of course, such a claim would be taken as outrageous. There are three reasons why:

First off, Roar/Whirlwind has a much easier time at removing Defense boosts than Evasion boosts. However, the chance of Roar hitting a pokemon as it DTs before it reachs +6 is very high.

Secondly, Defense boosts do not protect the user from critical hits - that is the 6.25% chance of a crit actually occurring.


Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Double Team is available to almost every pokemon whilst Double Team isn't, despite there being some decent users of Cosmic Power like Jirachi, Starmie and Clefable. However, such sets are never seen due to their lack of power. But would they be better with Double Team in place of Cosmic Power? Probably not.

Probably the bigget debate about Double Team is when used in Baton Passing teams.

Every pokemon that cant know Baton Pass can know Double Team. The only three pokemon that can know Baton Pass and Cosmic Power are Lunatone, Solrock and Smeargle, and the only three that can know Baton Pass and Stockpile are Driflbim, Mawile and Smeargle. Obviously, it is far easier to Baton Pass Double Team than Cosmic Power/Stockpile, especially considering that Smeargle would much rather be used to Baton Pass Ingrain, Mean Look or Belly Drum.

But what about +2 Defense Stat modifiers - Iron Defense, Amnesia, Acid Armor and Barrier?

Well, using Iron Defense halves the damage taken from physical attacks (50%) whilst the damage taken from special attacks is the same (100%). For the sake of my argument, let's average the two percentages and say that Iron Defense has improved the user's "overall defense" and it will take 75% "overall damage." This is exactly the same percentage as the chance of a 100 base accuracy move hitting a pokemon after 1 DT. So in the long run, chances are that a pokemon that uses Iron Defence once will be benefited the same if he had used Double Team in place of Iron Defence.

But what if two Iron Defenses were used. The physical damage taken is now 33%, so the pokemon will take 66.7% "overall damage". What is the chance of the pokemon that, instead, uses two Double Teams, is hit by an attack? 60%. In the long run, that's less damage taken.

Does this mean that Double Team is better than +2 Defense modifiers... what if I used one Iron Defense and one Amnesia? What's the overall damage I would take? Well, that's the average of 50% and 50%, which is 50%. A pokemon that has used Double Team twice has a 60% chance of being hit - in the long run, the pokemon that used one Iron Defense and Amnesia is better.

Now which pokemon can know Amnesia and Iron Defence/Acid Armor/Barrier (excluding Ubers)? Corsola, Cradily, Gorebyss, Marcargo, Swalot, Torkoal, Registeel and Smeargle. Out of these, Gorebyss and Smeargle are the only ones that can also know Baton Pass. But perhaps more importantly, one pokemon would not want to have two of its moveslots taken up by Defence boosting moves.

This then come to my final point that Baton Pass Teams revolve around Passing +6 Def and +6 SDef around the team. After receiving an Agility Boost from Zapdos and an Ingrain boost from Smeargle, the team would, let's say aim to let Vaporeon pass +6 Def to Gorebyss to pass +6 SDef onto the next pokemon. Assuming there is no need for switches to teammates and recovery moves, that's 4 moves used by each pokemon (3 Acid Armors/Amnesias and 1 Baton Pass each, reducing overall damage to 25%. If, instead, Vaporeon used 6 Double Teams and 1 Baton Pass, that's 7 moves used, but it only reduces overall damage to 33.3%. If Vaporeon was able to obtain +9 with Double Team, to reduce overall damage to 25%, it would require 10 turns, two turns too many - the process of Baton Passing Evasion Boosts is not as efficient as passing Defense Boosts. And that just cost me 1 extra moveslot out of my 24 moveslots.

If you're going to argue that a crit with Machamp's Close Combat will OHKO my +6 Def Gorebyss, well yes, that's true. But if the Close Combat would hit my +6 Evasion Gorebyss, which is more probable of occuring, that would OHKO Gorebyss anyways.


So Evasion boosts are very comparable to Defense boosts and may even be inferior to Defense Boosts. But are Defense boosts broken? NO!! We all know that Mewless Baton Pass teams are far from being considered broken teams. Double Team won't change that.

Everyone really needs to read this post. This is the best argument for unbanning double team I have ever seen. Props to you darknessmalice for providing that information.

I've skimmed over this thread and I have only seen haze mention a few times. I remember the good old days when hazers we're a staple on every team and I think DT will bring back hazers.

Really does it hurt to test it? I mean if they test it and if they think it is unbroken and unbanned. Then if proves to be broken then they can rebanned it.

Tbh, if there is so many people that thinks it isn't broken, it should deserve a test

 

[Relictivity]

I've read everyone's arguments and I agree with them - to a point. Unfortuantely, all you guys forgot about one move - Taunt. Taunt blocks all status moves, of all types. And many of those users are quite defensive - and fast. They don't necessarily need to Baton Pass. All they need is for Stealth Rock to be down, an perhaps T- Spikes or Spikes to speed up the process. Let's look at Dusknoir fo example. Dusknoir is rather outdated now, becuase of all of the Rotom forms. However, Dusknoir can brag to the exclusive right of Double Teaming and Taunt. It doesn't have speed, but I'll get to that later. The only effective move to use against Dusknoir after Double Team would be Faint Attack, and how effective would that be versus those 135 base Defenses. And is your T-Tar willing to give up the power to beat Cress (Crunch), just to beat Double Teaming Dusknoir? Other good Double Teamers would be Skarmoroy and Gliscor, not as bulky on the special side, but each have their own special attributes. Skarmory comes with whirlwind, to slolwly beat your opponent to death. Gliscor is very fast, and comes with Baton Pass. Umbreon, Tyranitar, and Heatran would be on this list, but they fear the ominous No Guard Machamp. Also, if you don't like Dusknoir's weaknesses, feel free to run Double Teaming Spiritomb. Pokemon like this could quite easily outstall you, and/or force you to switch repetatively on entry hazards. This is not mentioning that there could be weather going on. Also note that on a Double Teamer, it gets to the point where the only necesssary recovery is leftovers. You don't get hit enough to mandate a recovery move. And you will fool enough people with Taunt, you will get free turns.

There was also a comparison of Evasion made with +2Def/SpDef moves, however this is incorrect, because the user will suffer from moveslot syndrome. (3 moveslots needed vs. 2, including Taunt) Therefore, the only safe thing to compare it to is Cosmic Power. The disadvantages of Cosmic Power despite being ultimately better - it is slower to provide the inital boost, just in case you need to cut it off. The other critical problem (excuse the pun) is with critical hits going straight through all of those boost you used. Ultimately, Double Team offers to great an initial boost to evasion to be considered. I would also not rather wait for the inevitable critical hit, and would rather have a chance at dodging it. In those ways, Evasion takes advantage over Cosmic Power.

One last thing, Evasion is rather widespread in the game. Cosmic Power is not. If we introduce this into the metagame, it could be compared to how huge numbers of pokemon got Trick in Platinum. However, because of the abundant number of choicers in our enviroment, the problem was not as serious. Is Machamp and weak "always hit moves" (Aura Sphere excepted) the only way we will be able to get past these double teaming pokemon?

And please note, haze does not work during Taunt. Neither does Roar, Whirlwind, or Gravity. That is why it is Taunt that truly makes Evasion broken.

Sorry if I sounded a bit defensive :/

 

[lati0s]

I've read everyone's arguments and I agree with them - to a point. Unfortuantely, all you guys forgot about one move - Taunt. Taunt blocks all status moves, of all types. And many of those users are quite defensive - and fast. They don't necessarily need to Baton Pass. All they need is for Stealth Rock to be down, an perhaps T- Spikes or Spikes to speed up the process. Let's look at Dusknoir fo example. Dusknoir is rather outdated now, becuase of all of the Rotom forms. However, Dusknoir can brag to the exclusive right of Double Teaming and Taunt. It doesn't have speed, but I'll get to that later. The only effective move to use against Dusknoir after Double Team would be Faint Attack, and how effective would that be versus those 135 base Defenses. And is your T-Tar willing to give up the power to beat Cress (Crunch), just to beat Double Teaming Dusknoir? Other good Double Teamers would be Skarmoroy and Gliscor, not as bulky on the special side, but each have their own special attributes. Skarmory comes with whirlwind, to slolwly beat your opponent to death. Gliscor is very fast, and comes with Baton Pass. Umbreon, Tyranitar, and Heatran would be on this list, but they fear the ominous No Guard Machamp. Also, if you don't like Dusknoir's weaknesses, feel free to run Double Teaming Spiritomb. Pokemon like this could quite easily outstall you, and/or force you to switch repetatively on entry hazards. This is not mentioning that there could be weather going on. Also note that on a Double Teamer, it gets to the point where the only necesssary recovery is leftovers. You don't get hit enough to mandate a recovery move. And you will fool enough people with Taunt, you will get free turns.

There was also a comparison of Evasion made with +2Def/SpDef moves, however this is incorrect, because the user will suffer from moveslot syndrome. (3 moveslots needed vs. 2, including Taunt) Therefore, the only safe thing to compare it to is Cosmic Power. The disadvantages of Cosmic Power despite being ultimately better - it is slower to provide the inital boost, just in case you need to cut it off. The other critical problem (excuse the pun) is with critical hits going straight through all of those boost you used. Ultimately, Double Team offers to great an initial boost to evasion to be considered. I would also not rather wait for the inevitable critical hit, and would rather have a chance at dodging it. In those ways, Evasion takes advantage over Cosmic Power.

One last thing, Evasion is rather widespread in the game. Cosmic Power is not. If we introduce this into the metagame, it could be compared to how huge numbers of pokemon got Trick in Platinum. However, because of the abundant number of choicers in our enviroment, the problem was not as serious. Is Machamp and weak "always hit moves" (Aura Sphere excepted) the only way we will be able to get past these double teaming pokemon?

And please note, haze does not work during Taunt. Neither does Roar, Whirlwind, or Gravity. That is why it is Taunt that truly makes Evasion broken.

Sorry if I sounded a bit defensive :/

the problem is this is all theory, you don't know that taunt would make evasion broken you just think it might.

this is why I support a test, testing will provide us with much more solid information on whether or not evasion is broken and then we can make our decision.

 

[the_artic_one]

And please note, haze does not work during Taunt. Neither does Roar, Whirlwind, or Gravity. That is why it is Taunt that truly makes Evasion broken.

I just can't see anything being a major threat with only two moveslots and no way of boosting it's attacks, no matter how unlikely you are to hit it.

 

[Relictivity]

the problem is this is all theory, you don't know that taunt would make evasion broken you just think it might.

this is why I support a test, testing will provide us with much more solid information on whether or not evasion is broken and then we can make our decision.

I'm not against testing it (I'm not really going to say "no" unless it's something ridiculous), but I think you guys are underestimating the power of evasion. Majorly.

About Taunt making evasion broken, that is because Taunt limits the opponent to either using Machamp or a "never miss" move. By all means, test it, but I think you will not like what happens. Also note I gave you some examples to think about - how would you beat those pokemon?

About Evasion Teamers not being threatening, I say that is complete nonsense. There are several unresisted move combos such as Fighting/Ghost and Fighting Dragon. Also, Dragon/Ground doesn't do bad either as neither Bronzong or Skarmory will like being without their status moves and in Skarmory's case, Roost. You also cannot switch until they run out of PP because of entry hazards, and possible Sandstorm or Hail. Also, Toxic makes a great choice, as they will have no choice but to sit there and die (Breloom, Steels, and Immunity Pokemon excepted) as they are unable to recover health. Don't like being walled out by steels? Use Will-o-Wisp and only Heatran will like switching in. And no Heatran like Earthquake very much do they? Ther are plenty of things you can do with evasion, but the easiset thing to do is to force them to switch on entry hazards through Phazing and moves like Confuse Ray or Attract.

 

[ViRiD]

Evasion has power. Enough to make it a threat to be considered when building a team. The real matter is whether the threat can be reasonably overcome.

 

[Relictivity]

That is why I won't say no to the test. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done. I just worry there will not be enough checks on it. The only way to get around Taunt as far as I know it is Magic Coat or a faster Taunt/Sleeping Move. And you have to predict when Taunt ends too.

 

[Relictivity]

This would work - except that imprison is stopped by Taunt, because it is a status move. On the other hand, Magic Coat works once the Taunt has worn off, and has priority, meaning you will Taunt them before they can Taunt you.

 

[Darkmalice]

There was also a comparison of Evasion made with +2Def/SpDef moves, however this is incorrect, because the user will suffer from moveslot syndrome. (3 moveslots needed vs. 2, including Taunt) Therefore, the only safe thing to compare it to is Cosmic Power. The disadvantages of Cosmic Power despite being ultimately better - it is slower to provide the inital boost, just in case you need to cut it off. The other critical problem (excuse the pun) is with critical hits going straight through all of those boost you used. Ultimately, Double Team offers to great an initial boost to evasion to be considered. I would also not rather wait for the inevitable critical hit, and would rather have a chance at dodging it. In those ways, Evasion takes advantage over Cosmic Power.

One last thing, Evasion is rather widespread in the game. Cosmic Power is not. If we introduce this into the metagame, it could be compared to how huge numbers of pokemon got Trick in Platinum. However, because of the abundant number of choicers in our enviroment, the problem was not as serious. Is Machamp and weak "always hit moves" (Aura Sphere excepted) the only way we will be able to get past these double teaming pokemon?

... You didn't read that post. Every one of these points was referred to in the post.


For your other posts - if the DT user is going to Taunt, I'll just use brute force to take it down. Check the Evasion stats on that post, and you'll see just how probable it is that brute force will take down a DT user.

The best counter to Taunt is Imprisioning Taunt so no Pokemon currently against or switching into your Pokemon can use Taunt. Imprision also can be a check for Double Team as well since the user targets itself and cannot miss. It also goes through Protect/Substitute.

Perhaps:

Dusknoir/Spiritomb

Taunt
Imprision
Double Team
Curse

OR:

Gardevoir:

Imprision
Taunt
Double Team
Filler

OR

Bronzong

Imprision
Double Team
Block
Toxic

Walrein/Gliscor/Toxicroak, etc. will own with Double Team (and most importantly Substitute)... With strong evasion and healing, they will surpass our expectations.

All of these sets are horrible. Taunt + Imprison + Double Team is foolish.

The Dusknoir and Spiritomb sets suck. Curse is removed when your opponents swap out. Your opponent will only take 25% damage, but you would have wasted a move, a moveslot and 50% HP.

Gardevoir and Bronzong are easily walled. Filler will probably be a special attack that is easy to wall. Toxic as the only source of damage is walled by the ever common Steel Pokemon plus Gengar, Tentacruel and pokemon who have already been statused (Breloom or Flame Orb Latias/Cress anyone?) Bronzong also doesn't prevent Taunt with Imprison.

The 3 move combo would only work if the pokemon using them could use them... so only Smeargle and could pull it off should your opponent not have Roar, Whirlwind or just about any attack that would KO Smeargle with its paper defenses.



Oh, and thank you Scuba Steve.

 

[Relictivity]

... You didn't read that post. Every one of these points was referred to in the post.

I did not see where you dealt with these topics. Please point them out.

For your other posts - if the DT user is going to Taunt, I'll just use brute force to take it down. Check the Evasion stats on that post, and you'll see just how probable it is that brute force will take down a DT user.

You think it is easy to brute force Dusknoir? I tell you, it is not. You are not going to be able to restort to Stat-Up Moves meaning the most threatening thing you can muster vs. Dusknoir is CB Tar Crunch or CB Weavile Night Slash. I'd call that centralized. And realize, you have a 60% chance of hitting the first time, and a 60% (assuming they don't go for another DT) the next time for a 36% chance of KO. Not very likely. And if you decide to use Faint Attack, you might find that you don't do as well versus Cress.(although I'm not 100% sure).

 

[SunshineCat]

Everyone really needs to read this post. This is the best argument for unbanning double team I have ever seen. Props to you darknessmalice for providing that information.

I've skimmed over this thread and I have only seen haze mention a few times. I remember the good old days when hazers we're a staple on every team and I think DT will bring back hazers.

Really does it hurt to test it? I mean if they test it and if they think it is unbroken and unbanned. Then if proves to be broken then they can rebanned it.

Tbh, if there is so many people that thinks it isn't broken, it should deserve a test

Agreed, after reading this I have changed my opinion on DT. We can at least test it.

 

[Setrack]

you say that gliscor, skarmory and dusknoir are good double teamers. imagine you double team once with gliscor/skarmory/dusknoir. the enemy now has a 75% chance of hitting you. lets say they swap in swampert/mangezone/tyranitar. would you stay in on a 75% chance of being destroyed or would you switch out?

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

I read some wheres in one of your posts that you said that taunt makes evasion broken. Well if that is correct then could someone say evasion makes taunt broken if it was unbanned?

So what I'm trying to say is the combination of taunt and evasion might be the thing that is broken, not necessarily the moves themselves. And in the end, if taunt is the only thing that makes evasion broken, we could banned taunt and unbanned evasion which would introduce more strategies, movesets, pokemon, etc. into the game.

Imo, this is an option to consider if people agree with me.

Edit: After reading everyone's post before I posted this, my view is still the same. Also the first part of my post is if taunt is proven to break evasion. This why a test should be done sense we're not sure if it is, if it isn't, or if it is a combination.

@ darknessmalice: Your welcome.

 

[Relictivity]

you say that gliscor, skarmory and dusknoir are good double teamers. imagine you double team once with gliscor/skarmory/dusknoir. the enemy now has a 75% chance of hitting you. lets say they swap in swampert/mangezone/tyranitar. would you stay in on a 75% chance of being destroyed or would you switch out?

Erm... those were examples. I could find more, but my point is, that there are so many good users of Double Team you would find it practically impossible to kill a team that had multiple. Not EVERYONE carries Swampert/Magnezone/T-Tar on their teams, and you cannot expect them to do so.

@Scuba, I respect your opinion, but unfortunately, I disagree with it. Taunt is one of the most necessary moves in the metagame, it keeps Stallers, Stat-Upers, and Subers under control in the metagame. Even though evasion MIGHT (not saying will, again, I think there are to many Evasion users to counter) not be broken without Taunt, I suppose you have to look and see which is more necessary for the metagame? That would be Taunt. So no, an metagame with Evasion would not see as much variety as a metagame with Taunt.

However, in terms of 'banning moves', I believe there was an inconclusive discussion in PR, so yeah, I don't know what would be considered okay to do. However, I do believe that they came to universal agreement that you cannot ban a move for a single pokemon, for example, you cannot ban Mind Reader on Arcticuno because of Sheer Cold. You have to do it the other way around, and ban sheer cold. Even though Mind Reader is the move that's causing the problem, Sheer Cold IS the problem. Similarly,
even though Taunt is what is causing the problem, evasion IS the problem. Another example would be allowing SDl-ess or Sand Veil-ss Garchomp on the ladder, though it is the other things that create the problem, it was Garchomp that WAS the problem. So I don't think they will allow the banning of move combinations.

EDIT: Nevermind, they did have a definition. Unfortuantely, Doulbe Team falls under this category. It was posted by Caelum (can't get the quotey thins to work :| )

A move can be considered broken if it satisfies both of the following conditions under common battle conditions:

I: The usefulness, efficacy, and / or viability of the move is reasonably independent of the user.

II: For a player to counteract the effects of an opponent using a particular move (or class of moves) it is necessary to design his or her team such that it is not competitively viable if an opponent does not use the particular move (or class of moves) in question. -Caelum

Ah and here's one by Jumpman 16 himself

Highlighting this cause I think it's probably the most important point of the thread. If, when we test OHKOs, it's decided that "Lapras and Gliscor with [OHKO move]" is uber, we should consider banning Lapras and Gliscor, not Sheer Cold and Guillotine. The reason is obvious and logical when you remember that it's possible that a mistake was made when Horn Drill, Guillotine and Fissure were banned from competitive play in RBY, and not Rhydon, Pinsir and friends.

Or maybe we should think about it this way—we should ban whichever move will result in a more diverse competitive metagame. The best immediate argument supporting why OHKOs were banned in RBY and not the pokemon who learned them would be that there were only 151 (149) pokemon to choose from, and banning OHKO moves would have done away with Dugtrio, Snorlax, Nidoking, Seaking, Rhydon, Pinsir and Kingler. That's kind of a hefty percentage of pokemon...or maybe it isn't. I don't there's a real point in determining whether OHKOs were correctly banned after the fact. I do think that, if it's true that only Gliscor seems uber to "everyone" with Guillotine, then it makes much more sense to ban Gliscor than to ban Guillotine.

So yeah, if unbanning evasion results in a more diverse metagame, we should go that way. However, I think it would result in a less diverse metagame (the evasionist and counterevasionist), so therefore, the reason I think it should stay banned.

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

@Scuba, I respect your opinion, but unfortunately, I disagree with it. Taunt is one of the most necessary moves in the metagame, it keeps Stallers, Stat-Upers, and Subers under control in the metagame. Even though evasion MIGHT (not saying will, again, I think there are to many Evasion users to counter) not be broken without Taunt, I suppose you have to look and see which is more necessary for the metagame? That would be Taunt. So no, an metagame with Evasion would not see as much variety as a metagame with Taunt.

However, in terms of 'banning moves', I believe there was an inconclusive discussion in PR, so yeah, I don't know what would be considered okay to do. However, I do believe that they came to universal agreement that you cannot ban a move for a single pokemon, for example, you cannot ban Mind Reader on Arcticuno because of Sheer Cold. You have to do it the other way around, and ban sheer cold. Even though Mind Reader is the move that's causing the problem, Sheer Cold IS the problem. Similarly,
even though Taunt is what is causing the problem, evasion IS the problem. Another example would be allowing SDl-ess or Sand Veil-ss Garchomp on the ladder, though it is the other things that create the problem, it was Garchomp that WAS the problem. So I don't think they will allow the banning of move combinations.

EDIT: Nevermind, they did have a definition. Unfortuantely, Doulbe Team falls under this category.

As I respect yours, but fortunately, I agree with yours after reading your post. Attacking taunt was a bad idea, though I still think evasion could work if taunt was gone, but as you said: "Which will benefit the game more."
But all of this could be a mood point if we decide that taunt doesn't break evasion.

But somethings in your second paragraph is bugging me. I wasn't saying banning the combination was the solution, instead I meant the combination of the two was the problem. Then the solution was to banned either taunt or evasion sense one MIGHT break the other.(idk, maybe that is banning a move combination in a sense)
And your example with mind reader and sheer cold is not a good example, because taunt and evasion COULD break each other. (which is why we need to test evasion)
Also I thought at one point they banned the rapid spin + knock off combination?

In my opinion, that definition is outdated, but this is just my opinion so I won't touch it.

Edit: And that in the end is the ultimate question: Does unbanning evasion make the metagame more diverse? You say it doesn't and I say it could(which means I'm not sure if it will). So it sounds like we don't know the answer, so we need to test to find that answer.

 

[SunshineCat]

I don't know why some are against testing, it won't be permanent unless it's decided that Evasion is unbanned. Trying might be one of the only ways to see what Evasion would really do to he Metagame, not just guessing.

 

[Darkmalice]

There was also a comparison of Evasion made with +2Def/SpDef moves, however this is incorrect, because the user will suffer from moveslot syndrome. (3 moveslots needed vs. 2, including Taunt) Therefore, the only safe thing to compare it to is Cosmic Power. The disadvantages of Cosmic Power despite being ultimately better - it is slower to provide the inital boost, just in case you need to cut it off. The other critical problem (excuse the pun) is with critical hits going straight through all of those boost you used. Ultimately, Double Team offers to great an initial boost to evasion to be considered. I would also not rather wait for the inevitable critical hit, and would rather have a chance at dodging it. In those ways, Evasion takes advantage over Cosmic Power.

One last thing, Evasion is rather widespread in the game. Cosmic Power is not. If we introduce this into the metagame, it could be compared to how huge numbers of pokemon got Trick in Platinum. However, because of the abundant number of choicers in our enviroment, the problem was not as serious. Is Machamp and weak "always hit moves" (Aura Sphere excepted) the only way we will be able to get past these double teaming pokemon?

And please note, haze does not work during Taunt. Neither does Roar, Whirlwind, or Gravity. That is why it is Taunt that truly makes Evasion broken.

Sorry if I sounded a bit defensive :/

Ok. I will cut out part of my post here, and you can read it to see why. In short, it is obvious that DT is most powerful with Baton Pass, but Defense is ultimately the better stat to Baton Pass.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Double Team is available to almost every pokemon whilst Double Team isn't, despite there being some decent users of Cosmic Power like Jirachi, Starmie and Clefable. However, such sets are never seen due to their lack of power. But would they be better with Double Team in place of Cosmic Power? Probably not.

Probably the bigget debate about Double Team is when used in Baton Passing teams. Every pokemon that cant know Baton Pass can know Double Team. The only three pokemon that can know Baton Pass and Cosmic Power are Lunatone, Solrock and Smeargle, and the only three that can know Baton Pass and Stockpile are Driflbim, Mawile and Smeargle. Obviously, it is far easier to Baton Pass Double Team than Cosmic Power/Stockpile, especially considering that Smeargle would much rather be used to Baton Pass Ingrain, Mean Look or Belly Drum.

But what about +2 Defense Stat modifiers - Iron Defense, Amnesia, Acid Armor and Barrier?Well, using Iron Defense halves the damage taken from physical attacks (50%) whilst the damage taken from special attacks is the same (100%). For the sake of my argument, let's average the two percentages and say that Iron Defense has improved the user's "overall defense" and it will take 75% "overall damage." This is exactly the same percentage as the chance of a 100 base accuracy move hitting a pokemon after 1 DT. So in the long run, chances are that a pokemon that uses Iron Defence once will be benefited the same if he had used Double Team in place of Iron Defence.

But what if two Iron Defenses were used. The physical damage taken is now 33%, so the pokemon will take 66.7% "overall damage". What is the chance of the pokemon that, instead, uses two Double Teams, is hit by an attack? 60%. In the long run, that's less damage taken.

Does this mean that Double Team is better than +2 Defense modifiers... what if I used one Iron Defense and one Amnesia? What's the overall damage I would take? Well, that's the average of 50% and 50%, which is 50%. A pokemon that has used Double Team twice has a 60% chance of being hit - in the long run, the pokemon that used one Iron Defense and Amnesia is better.

Now which pokemon can know Amnesia and Iron Defence/Acid Armor/Barrier (excluding Ubers)? Corsola, Cradily, Gorebyss, Marcargo, Swalot, Torkoal, Registeel and Smeargle. Out of these, Gorebyss and Smeargle are the only ones that can also know Baton Pass. But perhaps more importantly, one pokemon would not want to have two of its moveslots taken up by Defence boosting moves.

This then come to my final point that Baton Pass Teams revolve around Passing +6 Def and +6 SDef around the team. After receiving an Agility Boost from Zapdos and an Ingrain boost from Smeargle, the team would, let's say aim to let Vaporeon pass +6 Def to Gorebyss to pass +6 SDef onto the next pokemon. Assuming there is no need for switches to teammates and recovery moves, that's 4 moves used by each pokemon (3 Acid Armors/Amnesias and 1 Baton Pass each, reducing overall damage to 25%. If, instead, Vaporeon used 6 Double Teams and 1 Baton Pass, that's 7 moves used, but it only reduces overall damage to 33.3%. If Vaporeon was able to obtain +9 with Double Team, to reduce overall damage to 25%, it would require 10 turns, two turns too many - the process of Baton Passing Evasion Boosts is not as efficient as passing Defense Boosts. And that just cost me 1 extra moveslot out of my 24 moveslots.

If you're going to argue that a crit with Machamp's Close Combat will OHKO my +6 Def Gorebyss, well yes, that's true. But if the Close Combat would hit my +6 Evasion Gorebyss, which is more probable of occuring, that would OHKO Gorebyss anyways.


So Evasion boosts are very comparable to Defense boosts and may even be inferior to Defense Boosts. But are Defense boosts broken? NO!! We all know that Mewless Baton Pass teams are far from being considered broken teams. Double Team won't change that.

As for crits, well read my Gorebyss example. What's the use of +6 Evasion if one landed attack with KO Gorebyss- a 1/3 chance of occuring (on average, hewill last 3 turns), when a +6 Defense Gorebyss can take that hit, losing only 30% of its HP, and have Leftovers and Recover to heal that damage. The chance of a crit is 6.25%, and the chance of not getting a crit is 93.75%. If a crit is scored on the first 3 attacks (I'm ignoring Recover and Leftovers), it will OHKO. But the chance of this ocuring is 93.75% to the power of 3, which is 82.4%. If we multiply this by 4 (the number of turns Gorebyss will last), on average, +6 Def Gorebyss will survive for 3.30 turns, which is still more than a +6 Evasion Gorebyss.


If that's not clear, here's one explained in greater depth.

Let's say that a physical attack, with 100 base accuracy, from a Pokemon Awill deal exactly 50% damage to Pokemon B and C (I will refer to them as B and C for the rest of the post). Neither Pokemon have Leftovers or Recovery moves. Both have Taunt and use it the exact same times when A uses Roar. Both pokemon use Calm Mind for the purpose of Baton Passing (as I am unconvinced that DT is a great threat without Baton Pass). However, B has +6 Evasion, but C has +6 Defense. B only has a 33.3% chance of being hit by the attack (1 in 3 attacks should hit). Chances are that in 6 turns, B will faint (2 in 6 attacks should hit). C will take 75% less damage with each attack, thanks to the defense and will faint in 8 turns. I will ignore the fact that B will be unable to Baton Pass +6 CM whilst C will. The ratio of chance to survive, ignoring hax, of B:C is 6:8 = 3:4 (Defense having the advantage).

Now the chance of a crit is 6.25%. The chance of not getting a crit is 93.75%. 8 attacks will hit C, but a crit on the last attack is insignificant. The chance of not scoring a crit in 7 turns of attacks is (93.75%) to the power of 7, which is 63.7%. To calculate the ratio of chance to survive with crits accounted for, we need to multiply the chance of a crit not occurring to the number of turns. C, on average, will survive 8 x 63.7% = 5.09 turns. Only two attacks can land on C, and only the first will be important. In the case of B, only a crit on the first attack matters, so that would be 6 x 93.75% = 5.625 turns. Well, the new ratio of B:C is 5.625:5.09. Yes, Evasion seems better here. Slightly better. 10.5% better chance of survivability to be precise. I doubt that would make a significant difference. And if the attack would normally OHKO B and C, well the Gorebyss example would demonstrate that the +6 Def pokemon is better off. With all the hard hitters in the metagame that have such great type coverage, a OHKO threat is pretty likely.

You think it is easy to brute force Dusknoir? I tell you, it is not. You are not going to be able to restort to Stat-Up Moves meaning the most threatening thing you can muster vs. Dusknoir is CB Tar Crunch or CB Weavile Night Slash. I'd call that centralized. And realize, you have a 60% chance of hitting the first time (actually, it's 75%), and a 60% (assuming they don't go for another DT) the next time for a 36% chance of KO. Not very likely. And if you decide to use Faint Attack, you might find that you don't do as well versus Cress.(although I'm not 100% sure).

With Dusknoir's pathetic speed, he'll have to Taunt pokemon on the switch. And I'll like to see Dusknoir try to Taunt an incoming Tyranitar, Salamence or Heatran. Same goes for every other Taunt + Double Team abuser. The amount of hard hitters in the metagame makes obtaining +6 Evasion incredibly hard for any pokemon, especially if you have Taunt them on the switch to stop a stat up move, Toxic, opposing Taunt, Haze, Encore or whatever.

Taunt + Double Team takes up two moveslots. What's the use of having a 33.3% chance of taking a hit if you can't make much use out of it. Is Gliscor going to sweep with Earthquake + Stone Edge/Aerial Ace/Ice Fang/Swords Dance? With Dusknoir sweep with Shadow Punch + Brick Break (perfect type coverage)? Or will pokemon like Hippowdon, Skarmory and even Gyarados wall them to no end? What about if Gliscor/Dusknoir/whatever had Toxic? Well, about 2 pokemon in every team are Steel Typed. And some of these Toxic immune pokemon take pitiful damage from Earthquake or none at all. This also includes Gengar. As well, Blissey and Celebi can enable switching between pokemon to no end, healing off damage whenever necessary. Not to mention that Wish and Clerics severly hamper this strategy. What about Taunt + Double Team + Roost/Recover + Filler? That won't consistently stop OHKO threats. And once again, switching between pokemon with the aid of Recovery moves, especially Wish, ruins this strategy.

The only way Taunt + Double Team has a chance of working is with Baton Pass, (Gliscor, Mr. Mime, Umbreon, Ambipom, Floatzel, Mawile, Absol, Smeargle or Mew can know this combo). Otherwise, the lack of moveslots will make the job impossible. his assumes that the pokemon lives long enough to get +6 Evasion. If you are wondering why this combo isn't broken, please refer to my post which acknowledges that Defense boosts synergise better with Baton Pass. Or at least, come up with some argument that would prove me wrong.

 

[Setrack]

Erm... those were examples. I could find more, but my point is, that there are so many good users of Double Team you would find it practically impossible to kill a team that had multiple. Not EVERYONE carries Swampert/Magnezone/T-Tar on their teams, and you cannot expect them to do so.

nothing is a good user of double team. its hardly impossible to kill something with like a 25% chance of dodging attacks. as i said earlier the best way to "counter" double team is just to do the move you already would have done anyway. those pokemon were just examples. i'm sure people carry like a water pokemon/bronzong/skarmory/cress for gliscor. or fire pokemon/electric pokemon for skarmory. or heatran/heracross/spritomb/whatever. anyway, you dont hear people complaining about being forced to carry a gyarados/rotom-a/heatran/gliscor or whatever to counter scizor.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

That is why I won't say no to the test. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done. I just worry there will not be enough checks on it. The only way to get around Taunt as far as I know it is Magic Coat or a faster Taunt/Sleeping Move. And you have to predict when Taunt ends too.

Magic Coat doesn't reflect Taunt.

 

[diinbong]

I think it does in Shoddy at the moment, but certainly not in-game.

 

[Relictivity]

Ok. I will cut out part of my post here, and you can read it to see why. In short, it is obvious that DT is most powerful with Baton Pass, but Defense is ultimately the better stat to Baton Pass.





As for crits, well read my Gorebyss example. What's the use of +6 Evasion if one landed attack with KO Gorebyss- a 1/3 chance of occuring (on average, hewill last 3 turns), when a +6 Defense Gorebyss can take that hit, losing only 30% of its HP, and have Leftovers and Recover to heal that damage. The chance of a crit is 6.25%, and the chance of not getting a crit is 93.75%. If a crit is scored on the first 3 attacks (I'm ignoring Recover and Leftovers), it will OHKO. But the chance of this ocuring is 93.75% to the power of 3, which is 82.4%. If we multiply this by 4 (the number of turns Gorebyss will last), on average, +6 Def Gorebyss will survive for 3.30 turns, which is still more than a +6 Evasion Gorebyss.


If that's not clear, here's one explained in greater depth.

Let's say that a physical attack, with 100 base accuracy, from a Pokemon Awill deal exactly 50% damage to Pokemon B and C (I will refer to them as B and C for the rest of the post). Neither Pokemon have Leftovers or Recovery moves. Both have Taunt and use it the exact same times when A uses Roar. Both pokemon use Calm Mind for the purpose of Baton Passing (as I am unconvinced that DT is a great threat without Baton Pass). However, B has +6 Evasion, but C has +6 Defense. B only has a 33.3% chance of being hit by the attack (1 in 3 attacks should hit). Chances are that in 6 turns, B will faint (2 in 6 attacks should hit). C will take 75% less damage with each attack, thanks to the defense and will faint in 8 turns. I will ignore the fact that B will be unable to Baton Pass +6 CM whilst C will. The ratio of chance to survive, ignoring hax, of B:C is 6:8 = 3:4 (Defense having the advantage).

Now the chance of a crit is 6.25%. The chance of not getting a crit is 93.75%. 8 attacks will hit C, but a crit on the last attack is insignificant. The chance of not scoring a crit in 7 turns of attacks is (93.75%) to the power of 7, which is 63.7%. To calculate the ratio of chance to survive with crits accounted for, we need to multiply the chance of a crit not occurring to the number of turns. C, on average, will survive 8 x 63.7% = 5.09 turns. Only two attacks can land on C, and only the first will be important. In the case of B, only a crit on the first attack matters, so that would be 6 x 93.75% = 5.625 turns. Well, the new ratio of B:C is 5.625:5.09. Yes, Evasion seems better here. Slightly better. 10.5% better chance of survivability to be precise. I doubt that would make a significant difference. And if the attack would normally OHKO B and C, well the Gorebyss example would demonstrate that the +6 Def pokemon is better off. With all the hard hitters in the metagame that have such great type coverage, a OHKO threat is pretty likely.






With Dusknoir's pathetic speed, he'll have to Taunt pokemon on the switch. And I'll like to see Dusknoir try to Taunt an incoming Tyranitar, Salamence or Heatran. Same goes for every other Taunt + Double Team abuser. The amount of hard hitters in the metagame makes obtaining +6 Evasion incredibly hard for any pokemon, especially if you have Taunt them on the switch to stop a stat up move, Toxic, opposing Taunt, Haze, Encore or whatever.

Taunt + Double Team takes up two moveslots. What's the use of having a 33.3% chance of taking a hit if you can't make much use out of it. Is Gliscor going to sweep with Earthquake + Stone Edge/Aerial Ace/Ice Fang/Swords Dance? With Dusknoir sweep with Shadow Punch + Brick Break (perfect type coverage)? Or will pokemon like Hippowdon, Skarmory and even Gyarados wall them to no end? What about if Gliscor/Dusknoir/whatever had Toxic? Well, about 2 pokemon in every team are Steel Typed. And some of these Toxic immune pokemon take pitiful damage from Earthquake or none at all. This also includes Gengar. As well, Blissey and Celebi can enable switching between pokemon to no end, healing off damage whenever necessary. Not to mention that Wish and Clerics severly hamper this strategy. What about Taunt + Double Team + Roost/Recover + Filler? That won't consistently stop OHKO threats. And once again, switching between pokemon with the aid of Recovery moves, especially Wish, ruins this strategy.

The only way Taunt + Double Team has a chance of working is with Baton Pass, (Gliscor, Mr. Mime, Umbreon, Ambipom, Floatzel, Mawile, Absol, Smeargle or Mew can know this combo). Otherwise, the lack of moveslots will make the job impossible. his assumes that the pokemon lives long enough to get +6 Evasion. If you are wondering why this combo isn't broken, please refer to my post which acknowledges that Defense boosts synergise better with Baton Pass. Or at least, come up with some argument that would prove me wrong.

Thanks for pointing that out :).

OK, first things first, you would agree that the user of evasion would have to be properly bulky, like a Gliscor, Skarm, Dusknoir, or whatever. It also should avoid being weak to fighting (hence why Umbreon, Heatran, and T-Tar would not do good jobs). The thing is with crits, if someone is using a pokemon with enough initial power, it's likley to 1HKO the pokemon, as it utterly avoids the stat-boosts and has double power. Thus, if you managed to land a crit on a pokemon using such, it would be gg, as most of those pokemon will be attempteing to do it with a supereffective, or at least neutrally effective move. With evasion, you have to worry less about these random crits as you have that extra chance to dodge them. Considering that you are using a defensive pokemon that has quite the bit of chance to survive one supereffective move, your pokemon still won't be taken down easily, even if the opponent hits.

Erm... please only Compare it to Cosmic Power. Only Cosmic Power protects you from both sides of the spectrum in one move slot. The most defensive use of Cosmic Power... is Claydol. The most powerful with a one spot recovery move is... Clefable (which actually is really good in doubles for Follow Me-ing if you get the Cosmic Powers up).

I agree though, it would be just as difficult to get +6 evasion as +6 Cosmic Power. However, I think the crits would make Cosmic Power to risky. About the type coverage though... have you ever thought about using moves that force them to switch on entry hazards, or what about running this during a Sandstorm. The entry hazards add up, and Double Team has quite a bit of PP (though most of it is useless). Imagine facing a whole team of double teamers, eventually, you would die of either running out of PP or switching on entry hazards too much (you cannot Heal because of Taunt).

I agree, Dusknoir is a bit too slow for the ideal Taunt. Try looking for something a bit faster.

What will be interesting is the entry of Deoxys-D into the inviroment. What will be the most common set? Evasion, Cosmic Power, or Spikes. And Deoxys-D has decent speed.

If I missed any points, sorry.

@ Setrack

I promised I would not get unhappy about a pokemon centralizing the metagame until all the suspects were tested. I fully intend to keep that promise. That is why I am not complaining... for now.

@ TheMakedNitpicker

It works in Shoddy like diibong says. I think we just found a glitch that needs to be fixed in Shoddy. It's too bad it doesn't work though, because I was planning to build my lead based on it :(. It would be awsome if someone could stop Electrode from Taunting besides Scarfers.

@ Scuba Steeve

I'm not against testing it. I'm just analyzing it. I would not be suprised if it could cause some problems, but then again, I think people will want to stick with their current teams. It is yet to be seen. And it is up to the people willing to try gimmicks and turn them into real, threatening sets.

 

[blasphemy1]

I would not participate in such a test, nor would I think of smogon as a credible competitive site either. Why must we involve even more luck into a game where luck is certainly dominant. We might like to think it isn't, but it is. Some noob can score a critical hit and freeze one of your pokemon to win the game. Knowing situations like this can occur, who in their right mind would want to instigate such luck? It may be part of the game, but DT/Minimize would be the downfall of true competitive pokemon.

 

[the_artic_one]

I would not participate in such a test, nor would I think of smogon as a credible competitive site either.

I would not think of smogon as a credible competitive site if they didn't do the test, for two reasons:
1. it is uncompetitive to ban things that are not broken.
2. You cannot determine if something is broken without testing it.

Also, lets say that you're right and evasion will destroy competitive battling, don't you think people would figure that out during the test and never again speak of unbanning evasion?

 

[lati0s]

I would not participate in such a test, nor would I think of smogon as a credible competitive site either. Why must we involve even more luck into a game where luck is certainly dominant. We might like to think it isn't, but it is. Some noob can score a critical hit and freeze one of your pokemon to win the game. Knowing situations like this can occur, who in their right mind would want to instigate such luck? It may be part of the game, but DT/Minimize would be the downfall of true competitive pokemon.

luck is not dominant in the metagame, luck can win you a few games, but in the long run the more skilled players will do better

 

[Baldafor]

Haze solves DT instantly. Foresight, Odor Sleuth, and Miracle Eye not only null evasion bonuses, but also prevent the target from ever gaining any more. Obviously, the perfect accuracy moves also hit through evasion. And, though they probably won't be allowed, OHKOs ignore evasion modifiers IIRC.

Does any of this help? I think this post has been largely ignored, and I don't think that's fair.

Roar is a counter to stat ups, Aromatherapy is a counter to status, etc. Evasion has its counters, these are 100%, only thing that stops it is a Taunt on the switch.

I for one think Haze alone is good enough to counter evasion, and several other things as well, but there are PLENTY of pokemon that can easily and with 100% chance counter evasion boosting as long as they aren't taunted on the switch (should be easy enough to prevent).