CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

[Cartoons!]

Personally Im against Thick Fat. For one, I dont think the Ice weakness is that big a deal. In CAPS metagame there are really only 2 STAB users of Ice, Syclant and Mamoswine. Both of these pokemon have access to Ground moves, one has STAB Earthquake, Thick fat isnt going to make much difference to them. For nonSTAB, the majority of Icebeam users are water, which will threatened by electric atacks for the most part. While on the physical side of things, pretty much every Icefang/Punch user has access to EQ.

Conceptually I also have issues. Thick Fat is already on Snorlax, which is still considered an OU pokemon. While it isnt its only ability, it certainly seems like one of the least neglected abilites out of the whole list presented.

I also think the ability that is chosen should be adding more to the metagame than just a new typing. Thick Fat just feels subservant to the Typing, trying to cover a weakness that doesnt even necessarily need patching. I would rather an ability that takes center stage and expands an already strong typings strengths.

It also doesnt feel like breaking much new ground considering there is already a dragon with no Ice Weakness and x4 resistance to Fire already in the OU metagame.

Agreed with completely. I sincerely hope people don't pick Thick Fat just because it compliments the typing. Kingdra has that ground covered, so there isn't much we can learn from covering the Ice weakness. The long term goal for this CAP was to make the focus an interesting underused ability and hopefully introducing some new play dynamics through this ability, and not through typing.

As an alternative, I'd like to suggestive the duality of Gluttony and Unburden. The CAP metagame is already heavily stall based and I think it'd be fun to see how we could get this tankish Pokemon with (anticipating here) average offensive stats to try to pull off a sweep using these abilities.

Gluttony activates the berry at 50% health, and is the safer of the two options. Unburden, if a berry was used, would activate at 25%, riskier, but offers the opportunity to boost two stats instead of one; speed and, say, the offensive stat of your choice.

If we don't give this thing Dragon Dance (not all dragons get it), we have the opportunity to try a new method of establishing a sweep. It may not be as straightforward as Salamence's method, we could have fun compensating for that, and it does give us the leeway to be flexible with our movesets as we have the liberty to boost whichever stats we want.

If we do give it Dragon Dance, we have the option of, with some smart maneouvering, boosting up to three or four different stats in one turn even, allowing for a very unique mixed sweeper (that resists bullet punch, no less).

So I'm asking everyone, please, please don't go with the 'safe' tanky, wally, abilities like Thick Fat or Marvel Scale. We have the opportunity to go in some very interesting directions here. Gluttony and Unburden are just examples; we have a whole bunch of cool choices available, so let's play with a little of the unknown.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I'm still in total support of Rough Skin and this argument can go for Static as well. The argument that earthquake and ice shard negate the usefulness of them is ridiculous. For one, not everything out there carries those moves. Furthermore, thick fat (which only helps with ice) aside, no other ability is going to make them fare any better against those moves either. I believe someone already mentioned Ampharos (which is also EQ weak) and it still gets usefulness out of it. Also, when switching in to resisted attacks or attacks that won't hurt it, the attacker could either lose 1/8 of their hp (rough skin) or has a chance of being paralyzed (static), excuse me for saying that's pretty awesome and those abilities will always get a good amount of use out of them, regardless of their weakness'. Also, these abilities gain some of the support that dust shield recieves, although while not making them resistant, moves like body slam, iron head, bounce, etc. just aren't as useful when you could be getting hurt or paralyzed in the process, while you still have a chance of hitting them on top of that.

I also have to agree with Kamen Rider and Cartoons! in stating that Thick Fat isn't that great. The argument has been made by Kamen Rider and I don't think I could have done it nearly as well myself.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

I don't understand why Static is supposed to protect against Ice Shard and Earthquake. If you're trying to hurt them in revenge for killing you, Aftermath would be better, IMO. I see Static as something to help it against the moves you're already going to be blocking with it. Since it's a defense-leaning Pokemon and people seem to be going with lower speeds in the base stats thread, Static would help it become a better mixed tank/attacker - not necessarily make it stronger against its weaknesses. That's Thick Fat's job.

 

[Ybbob]

Static is pretty lame, 30% chance of paralysis isn't enough to revenge on pokemon and won't even affect the Pokemon's greatest enemy, ground types, and Thick Fat is used on Snorlax. We could use as Aftermath is good for revenge-killing, or Rough Skin, for the same purpose. But then this Pokemon needs DD or Bulk Up.

 

[Deck Knight]

I still have no clue why Thick Fat is even up for discussion at all when OU Pokemon Snorlax has it and uses it. Nevermind several UU pokemon like Hariyama and Miltank already make great use of it. It isn't as if its neglected in the first place.

For Compoundeyes we already have Syclant to instruct us on that. Back when it had Focus Blast it was basically unstoppable. We've already been there.

Gluttony and Unburden are fairly useless unless this gets Baton Pass. Leftovers is the item of choice for a bulky pokemon and Leftovers never get used up.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

Which is why I think Aftermath and Cloud Nine would be great, as they're interesting abilities that fit right into this CAP's theme. Still like Static, though - I think the trick of it, and possibly the problem, is not directly that it doesn't activate often, it's that because of its low activation rate it's not something you rely on or the opponent is counting on. Somewhat of a hax thing. It's there, it'll screw the opponent if it happens, but they aren't planning on it and neither are you, so they'll take the chance anyway and ahhhhhh, it paid off for you in spades. Paralyzed!

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Static is pretty lame, 30% chance of paralysis isn't enough to revenge on pokemon and won't even affect the Pokemon's greatest enemy, ground types...

Actually, yeah it does. I managed to paralyze a Geodude with an Electrike that I had on PKMN Emerald with Static

As for abilities (since Quick Feet's offensive and Defensive won), I'd probably go with Aftermath, Marvel Scale or Rough Skin

 

[Deck Knight]

Which is why I think Aftermath and Cloud Nine would be great, as they're interesting abilities that fit right into this CAP's theme. Still like Static, though - I think the trick of it, and possibly the problem, is not directly that it doesn't activate often, it's that because of its low activation rate it's not something you rely on or the opponent is counting on. Somewhat of a hax thing. It's there, it'll screw the opponent if it happens, but they aren't planning on it and neither are you, so they'll take the chance anyway and ahhhhhh, it paid off for you in spades. Paralyzed!

The fact people ever use Discharge over Thunderbolt and Lava Plume over Flamethrower is an indication that 30% is not as small as people want to claim it to be.

You have a larger chance of paralyzing a Crunching Tyranitar than it has of lowering your defense.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

Like I said - hax! I love it. But I can totally see why people wouldn't want it. I think it gives CAP8 a much more unique spin as a tank than Thick Fat, for sure.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I really don't think Thick Fat is "neglected".

It's the standard ability on every Snorlax. Although Snorlax is not a major force in OU these days -- it is still OU. On top of that, we really won't learn anything new about Thick Fat. When Snorlax was one of the best pokemon in RSE, it carried Thick Fat then too. Thick Fat is on some other UU pokemon (Hariyama is the biggest UU user of it), so it gets play there too.

Yes, competitively, Thick Fat would obviously be a big help for a Dragon. But, since the concept is to use a "neglected" ability, and presumably learn something new about that ability in the process -- Thick Fat should not be considered. The metagame has been there, done that.

 

[Daisuke]

ATM I don't have an ability that stands out, but I want to vote against Color Change and Thick Fat.

Right now Compoundeyes is sounding really good, as long as CAP8's a Sp.Attacker, Compoundeyes give Thunder a nice accuracy boost.

Static is okay, but I don't think there's that much more we can learn about it.

 

[Hazmat]

Agreed with completely. I sincerely hope people don't pick Thick Fat just because it compliments the typing. Kingdra has that ground covered, so there isn't much we can learn from covering the Ice weakness. The long term goal for this CAP was to make the focus an interesting underused ability and hopefully introducing some new play dynamics through this ability, and not through typing.

...

So I'm asking everyone, please, please don't go with the 'safe' tanky, wally, abilities like Thick Fat or Marvel Scale. We have the opportunity to go in some very interesting directions here. Gluttony and Unburden are just examples; we have a whole bunch of cool choices available, so let's play with a little of the unknown.

Wow, I was about to go with thick fat, without considering that it was totally for the wrong reasons. I really like the idea of unburden/gluttony now.

 

[Raikuga]

I still like the idea of Cloud Nine's usefulness as one posisble ability, plus the cloud motifs associated with lightning.

With this being a tank pokemon, lets not forget Immunity, Shed Skin, and even Battle Armor.

Some of the abilities, because of the typing, can't exactly work out so well in a consistency viewpoint. Shield dust and suction cups, for example, will have a hard time fititng themselves onto an elec/dragon pokemon.

 

[Petope]

I like Aftermatch and Static as abilities, and thinks they would be great if they were paired together.
Static: Even if it dont activate (though 30% is a pretty big chance) it will make the opponent think twice before switch out with U-turn for an exampel. The fear of being crippled could make more of a difference than the actual chance of crippeling.

Aftermatch: This could make the same thing thought it is more dependable when it actually kicks in. It could also stop a statupper that has low on hp (about 20%) that is raping your team. CAP8 has alredy been in and is also on pretty low on hp, you could sacrifice CAP8 to get rid of the stat upper or if u i alredy in it could force a switch as the oppenent wants to keep his statupper.

Both: If CAP8 is up aginst a Scizor (and we asume that CAP8 has lower speed than Scizor), the scizor needs to think before he attacks because if CAP8 has Static he could be crippeld and probobly lose because of a Fullypara. He cant just switch out with U-turn as he could still get crippled. But even if Scizor don't get crippled if they fight so both of them have about 20% he needs to think of aftermatch as a possibility and then maybe wont attack as he want to keep his scizor alive.

To sum it up. The abilities will make the oppenent switch alot more. and the niche of being hit as a possible good thing for you doesn't exist in the current metagame.

 

[the_artic_one]

I don't much care for cloud nine since that means cap8 loses 100% accurate thunders in rain.

Mold breaker seems pointless since there's nothing we could hit with it that wouldn't be hit harder from a dragon or electric attack except bronzong.

 

[Veedrock]

I'm glad Doug spoke up about Thick Fat. Also, people are bring waaaay too much flavor into this, often referring to certain art submissions or "it doesn't fit."

I still like the idea of Cloud Nine's usefulness as one posisble ability, plus the cloud motifs associated with lightning.

First, don't bring flavor into this (on a side note, how does Cloud Nine = Cloud? Golduck doesn't make that relation >_>). As I've stated, Cloud Nine would completely shut down all rain and run teams. Not only is our CAP defensive, it resists Water, Grass, Fire, and Electric, which are the main attacking types (depending on the weather). Seeing as those strategies struggle enough as it is, we don't need to put a final nail in the coffin. Also, outside of Tyranitar, it does nothing of note, and even then it's not significant. And as artic one said, this thing can actually benefit from the rain.

With this being a tank pokemon, lets not forget Immunity, Shed Skin, and even Battle Armor.

Shed Skin, Rev. Battle Armor, Pyroak. Immunity is incredibly meh. You're overpredicting the "tankiness" of the pokemon; take into consideration that most people want balance (meaning it'll be almost as offensive as defensive), and this thing is weak to some extremely common typings.

Damp is next to useless. Argue that you can switch into explosion, but "then what?" It's not a lasting effect, and more often than not it can put in in bad situations, not favorable ones (off the top of my head, most explosion users pack a ground move, but not all). Same thing kind of applies to Leaf Guard, as you require sun just to prevent status (it doesn't cure it like Hydration).

I actually want to see Suction Cups get more consideration. This will this make it a fantastic BP recipient, and with Electric typing Argho won't be too thrilled to negate it. Hustle would be extremely cool if we have some decent offensive stats to go with it (Hustle 'Kiss can hurt, imagine a Dragon; actually, that might be pushing it >.<). Rock Head would be pretty neat, but with only Volt Tackle looking feasible, it's not worth using.

EDIT:

If CAP8 is up aginst a Scizor (and we asume that CAP8 has lower speed than Scizor), the scizor needs to think before he attacks because if CAP8 has Static he could be crippeld and probobly lose because of a Fullypara.

Scizor doesn't mind Paralysis, and I'll be damned if this thing is THAT slow >_>

 

[ixfalia]

Why is Sticky Hold not on the list?
It could be great for stopping Trick users, and is certainly a neglected ability.

I was just about to say the same, Sticky Hold fits nicely for a somewhat defensive pokemon, Immunity to having leftovers knocked off is really nice, having used Gastrodon many times to deal with this (in OU even) I have found a useful and underlooked ability, it should at least be listed ^^

So far I need to think about the abilities more and come up with a more informed and thoughtful opinion for my discussion. However I do have to say something about Cloud Nine:

People have said it before and I just feel the need to reiterate, we already have a "cloud nine" pokemon, it's Air Lock Revenankh. I thought this CAP was to bring light too an underused underappreciated ability, so I feel it's necessary to explore what we haven't used.

 

[Helios]

How about Overgrow?
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...
What? It's techincally got no users in OU; all grass starters are UU or lower and a 'pinch' ability has never been done on someone who hasn't got stab on it (Below 1/3 HP against Swampert? OH NO; GIGA DRAIN TO THE RESCUE!). That part hasn't been done before.
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Sorry...

Personally, I support rough skin; whilst the promise of 30% paralysis is nice, I find it's more something of frustration on both sides ('OH COME ON; THAT'S THE THIRD OUTRAGE IN A ROW AND HE ISN'T PARALYSED QQ' {For the purpose of the arguement, let's say he's subbing down in an attempt to cripple a sweeping Salamence...}). I'd rather something more reliable. I WANT to dislike shield dust; mainly since it lacks flavour and that there's something misfitting about it; it doesn't have the 'awesome' factor that you can make a move set around, but hax is definitely an element many would like out of their battles. By the way, does Shield Dust lower the critical hit chances on things like Slash?

 

[Kenesei]

I would like to see Compoundeyes on it. Considering that it's a defensive pokemon, being able to spread status around without failure should be good.

 

[Tint]

Why isn't Marvel Scale seeing more love?
If this thing is a tank, then status would ruin it, just like almost every tank.
Marvel Scale gives you a nice status absorber, and it let's you accomplish something if you switch into a T-Wave, instead of ruining your tank.

 

[Atomos]

Static just "Seems Right", additionaly ones like leaf guard and flower gift dont make sense with the typing. Sticky Hold could also help,

 

[Jhonny]

I would like to see Compoundeyes on it. Considering that it's a defensive pokemon, being able to spread status around without failure should be good.

Look at the first CAP, or just read the page your posting on.

 

[LupusAter]

I think Shield Dust is the way to go.
Since this thing would be somewhat defensive, it will be hit a lot of times (hopefully). Now, when you get hit so much, a 10% chance of stat drop/paralysis/burn/freeze(irrelevant because of the typing)/flinch doesn't look so small. Crits could ruin this anyway, but I feel it is a severely reduced risk without the other side-effects.

 

[Coram_Boy]

I like shield dust much more now as well, although unburden/gluttony is another favorite choice of mine - I always loved it since seeing a drifblim sweep a team with its petaya berry and unburden.

 

[The_Bassoonist]

In terms of Compoundeyes, yes, Syclant does have it, but I was under the impression that most poeple go with Mountaineer for the SR immunity and for not needing a spinner on your team. As such, Syclant isn't necessarily the best representative for that ability, not in the same way as Air Lock Revenankh (who still more frequntly uses Shed Skin IMO). Personally I also support Compoundeyes for reasons previously stated.

I was going for Thick Fat in the beginning, but the counter-arguments managed to sway me away from there. While beneficial to the user, we can learn more from giving a different ability.

Otherwise, I think Shield Dust, Aftermath and Gluttony/Unburden were interesting choices as well for the reasons stated. In fact, the combo of Shield dust7Aftermath can give the same exact impact as the Static/Aftermath combo would've.