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VGC's Metagame

False said:
Well, at least I was partially right.

As far as Doubles goes, I've run a Trick Room team, and I've run a Hail Team. I have to play a lot more intelligently/carefully with the Hail team, mostly because the members are a lot more fragile, but I seem to be able to handle many different teams with it, instead of having a distinct advantage against some and a distinct disadvantage against others with my Trick Room team. Then again, the Trick Room team was my very first doubles team, so I'm sure going back to it now I could build a much better one.
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I ran a Trick Room Hail team. Priority Moves everywhere, which demolishes Lvl1 Smeargle, and it can even work with, without, and against TR Teams. Plus, Rain is not much of a bother either. xD

Goodstuff teams gave me trouble, though.

EDIT: Wait a minute, what was this topic about again? If people want to learn about Doubles, Smogon is not the place for it. I mean, it's nice that people are interested, but Smogon is for 6v6 Singles. :\
 
VashTheStampede said:
EDIT: Wait a minute, what was this topic about again? If people want to learn about Doubles, Smogon is not the place for it. I mean, it's nice that people are interested, but Smogon is for 6v6 Singles. :\
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Uh.. what? Last I checked there were a bunch of people that attended VGC events that also use these forums. Some of them even placed and qualified for Nationals and some made it further still to Worlds. Hell, you're one of them. Smogon is a competitive pokemon website that specializes in 6v6 single battles, yes. However, it doesn't exclude other competitive styles of play; just merely hasn't addressed them yet in terms of on-site analysis. These forums are chock full of information about double battling, though, and you'd be foolish to think otherwise. There's a huge thread dedicated to doubles strategies as well as the VGC topic itself which links to warstories from most VGC winners. If you want to learn about double battles, check those threads. Plenty of people here have experience and wisdom that can be passed on.. there's just no formal babying and hand holding of "read the Metagross analysis for all 2v2 information on said pokemon." Which, to be perfectly honest, is a good thing since doubles is a more complex game that shouldn't be played by slapping 6 Smogon analysis pokemon together and calling that a team.

Sorry to be so coarse here, Vash, but that was a pretty asinine statement.
 
Yea, it was, but I still stand by it, making me a fool or not, it doesn't matter. I like playing the fool, it's more fun. I play Smart Guy IRL, and it's a pain. :\

I can agree that there are people here that enjoy, play. and follow the Doubles and VGC Metagame, but you can't seriously expect anybody to believe that Smogon SUPPORTS Doubles. Look at your Analysis's. Look at your Ladders. Look at majority of the WiFi section, where there is 3 threads and it's first SPB for the VGC or Doubles. Smogon does indeed have it's talk about Doubles, no denying that, but Smogon also does not show any support (at least not openly) for Doubles, and there's no denying that either.

BTW, no hate Carl. Just voicing our opinions, yea? :pimp:
 
Yes, these are indeed just my opinions so you're welcome to disagree. I'm not trying to be mean but your comments just seem unfounded.

Normally, I'm not this bothered by statements about the site but to say that Smogon isn't the place for doubles when some of the mods, myself included, actually went to VGC events and enjoy playing this style, I sort of take it as an indirect jab at me. After all, the mods are very much entrenched in this website helping represent and make it what it is. To say those things sort of implies that the people helping to run this website, and those who contribute, don't know enough about doubles to teach others which is just not true. I know you didn't intend to mean it that way so don't take it as an attack on you personally but as an attack on the mindset and stereotype that Smogon is only good at the shoddybattle metagame.

Just because, as I said, there are no formal write ups that hand you the information, doesn't mean it can't be found here. And it definitely doesn't imply that there is no support for it. There's a lot of reasons singles are the focus here:

- the only reliable battle simulator lacks doubles mode (which means that the singles game evolves at a faster pace and constantly needs to be updated (also why there is no ladder for doubles ._.))
- singles is the traditional mode of play
- singles is easier to cover on a pokemon by pokemon basis as well as a mode of play basis.

It's a lot of work covering this game and we all do it for free. Singles is complex enough and doubles is a whole other level of complexity. Getting formal write ups done takes time. We prioritized the style that is not only easier to click and play immediately online but also easier cover in general. We just haven't gotten to doubles yet.

But really, I just think the lack of analysis equating to lack of support is just a bogus train of thought. Nobody is shunned for liking doubles. Not to sound like an old man here, but when I started playing pokemon competitively I learned by reading warstories and RMTs on forums and, you know, actually playing. The real way to learn is to get your feet wet.. not by relying on write ups (which, to be an old man again, didn't exist back then to the extent that they do today). Also, your open support is found in the contributions section of the forums: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=91 Feel free to contribute so we can "openly show support for doubles" on the website faster.

edit: I feel like my thoughts are jumbled here after rereading this.. I tried to edit it but eh it's late and I'm going to bed. I hope my general points are clear and strong enough. No hard feelings Vash it's the mindset I don't like.
 
Carl said:
edit: I feel like my thoughts are jumbled here after rereading this.. I tried to edit it but eh it's late and I'm going to bed. I hope my general points are clear and strong enough. No hard feelings Vash it's the mindset I don't like.
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No need to quote the whole things, so I'll start with the bold.. I was already sleeping so this won't take long and probably won't help any, but now that I'm home and my sister is awake.. *sigh*

Well, there's a few things that tick me off, really. Trust me, I know that some of the Mods play Doubles, and I know and/or have played with nearly every member here that does as well. I even talk to Evan on a daily basis on AIM, but that's of little consequence. I'll keep it short and sweet:

1) Caelum+ ... Rory, as you (may) know, came trying to get the interest of people going in 2v2 since SB2 will emulate Doubles as well as Singles. Well, I offered to help however I could, and get this:

Caelum said:
Don't even bother replying if you don't have double battles experience...
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And recently, thanks to your link, found this one:

...which now I can't find. *sigh* But I'll leave this here for the thought of it. I could have sworn I found a post saying he hasn't even played Doubles, and yet he has the nerve to write me off like that...

2) Not only that, but he openly admits that, in agreement with Misty and Aeolus, Smogon would not participate in Doubles-orientated things for the simple reason that there is no Simulator that supports Doubles. And if that statement still stands true, then majority of your argument holds no water. I mean sure there's topics, and sure there are plenty of people interested, but if the idea of participation is already shot down by the sites Administrators, then what's the point of saying "we support it" or anything along those lines? It just doesn't make sense to me. :(

3) This one is probably just a pet peeve of mine, so feel free to ignore it.
Doubles Battle Me - Page 36 Locked. I thought I passed it for a while, lol.

Alright, my sister should be sleeping now, looks like it's my turn. Take care.

EDIT: BTW, if you feel we are going off topic, or others do, we can go to a PM if we receive complaints, etc.
 
Especially when they get critical hits on your Dusknoir. ._.

Something everyone should do when designing a VGC team: follow Murphy's Law. Make sure your team has absolutely no holes in it whatsoever before going down to the tournament. And if it does have a hole in it, you'll get stung for it at some point. Guaranteed. That includes not being able to survive critical hits, which is why Dusknoir sucks.
 
hhjj said:
Lickilicky @ Custap berry
172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def
Brave, 0 Speed Ivs
Own Tempo

Substitute
Belly Drum
Explosion
Gyro Ball


Smeargle: Scarf / Focus Sash
4 Hp / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly

Dark Void
Follow Me
filler
filler

1st turn - Use Dark Void + Scarf, or Follow Me + Focus Sash to allow Licklicky a turn of Substitute.

2nd turn - Use Belly Drum + switch to Scarf Gengar as the foe switches out their sleeping Pokemon, or if Smeargle survived, have it use Follow Me again, probably taking 1 hit as the Lickilicky Substitute takes the other hit.

3rd Turn - Custap Activates, making Licklicky go first, Licklicky uses Explosion, as Scarf Modest Gengar uses Shadow ball on any Ghosts, or Focus Blast on any Rocks/Steels. Trick Room could also be used. Now with 2 Pokemon Dead by Explosion, and 2 put to Sleep, the foe doesn't stand a chance.


*Gengar is scarfed to help outspeed common threats like Aerodactyl, Dusknoir, etc.
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Too bad Custap Berry is banned in VGC and an Earthquake and Heat Wave from Garchomp and Zapdos will probably prevent you from getting belly drum off.
 
It says players may only use Pokémon from #001 to #492, other than the banlist. They just don't want to admit it exists yet.
EDIT: Beaten :\
 
VashTheStampede said:
I ran a Trick Room Hail team. Priority Moves everywhere, which demolishes Lvl1 Smeargle, and it can even work with, without, and against TR Teams. Plus, Rain is not much of a bother either. xD

Goodstuff teams gave me trouble, though.

EDIT: Wait a minute, what was this topic about again? If people want to learn about Doubles, Smogon is not the place for it. I mean, it's nice that people are interested, but Smogon is for 6v6 Singles. :\
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lol, why should smogon be dedicated to solely 6 v 6 singles. Are you afraid that Smogon will have the monopoly on all kinds of battles?!
 
Oh wow a vgc metagame topic!!!

I think someone pointed this out already and I have been looking on this as well, its the way the Japanese players play. They seem to have an unorthodox style of play, some battles were impressive and some, lets just say were not as good. I haven't found out any specific pattern of their style of play yet, I have seen both a fair share of bulkiness and hard hitting team.

On the chomp note, I personally think chomp kind of gets outshadowed with the superior lati@s although I think Latios is the more dominant sibling. Its kind of funny seeing how scarf/chain/etc chomp variants which were very prominant threats in the single metagame kind of become novelty here in the vgc metagame. Only one that gets some use is the yache variant.

I need to do quite a lot of testing for this.
 
UltimateUnknown said:
Its kind of funny seeing how scarf/chain/etc chomp variants which were very prominant threats in the single metagame kind of become novelty here in the vgc metagame. Only one that gets some use is the yache variant.
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Definitely. One can't just take any old poke-setup that works in singles and paste it onto a doubles team.

2v2 means 2 weak but fast pokes can zap your prize sweeper chomp to little bits before it ever has the chance to sweep if you're not careful.
 
Yea, with sashes flying around everywhere and sr being virtually non-existant, frail but hard hitting sweepers have their way through this metagame since attempting walling is failing.
 
Raistmagic said:
lol, why should smogon be dedicated to solely 6 v 6 singles. Are you afraid that Smogon will have the monopoly on all kinds of battles?!
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I take it you are referring to the other site? Honestly, I couldn't give a damn. I'm not saying that Smogon should solely be 6v6 Singles, I am saying it IS solely 6v6 singles. Even the Admin Staff agreed upon it.

UltimateUnknown said:
Yea, with sashes flying around everywhere and sr being virtually non-existant, frail but hard hitting sweepers have their way through this metagame since attempting walling is failing.
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I have to completely disagree with this. I get around the frail sweepers without much of a problem, as do most players I've seen play. Frail Pokes get swept under the rug next to Bulky Offense and Trick Room.
 
I know that bulky offence is very successful, I personally used a bulky approach myself in my team because with bulk, I can more or less withstand tr even if I am unable to prevent it with taunt.

But I have to say, stuff like gengar/azelf with sash can actually work quite well and I have personally used them myself to success and seen them being used quite well. Not to mention the plathora of smearegle's that can be taunted which could otherwise cause troubles to bulky pokies.
 
Vash, I'm really confused by where you're getting this whole "the admins said smogon is only 6v6 singles" thing. Or maybe you're just confused. I'm not quite sure.

Not only that, but he openly admits that, in agreement with Misty and Aeolus, Smogon would not participate in Doubles-orientated things for the simple reason that there is no Simulator that supports Doubles
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What do you mean by participate? Are you saying that Smogon isn't going to "participate" in forming tier and ban lists along with standard rulesets for doubles until a reliable simulator exists? Because, yeah, that's what the stance is.

<@Carl> misty are you around
<&Misty> yes
<@Carl> what is your stance on doubles in relation to smogon
<@Carl> it's basically we can't do anything until we get a simulator that supports it right
<&Misty> i roll doubles and land on chaos avenue. I purchase it for $100
<&Misty> But yeah, without a simulator it's dumb
<@Carl> could you explain "why" so i can quote this to vash so he'll stop being dumb
<&Misty> because right now the only way to do 2v2 DP is with WiFi
<&Misty> but WiFi isn't played enough at a competitive level, and even if it were, WiFi is a dubious way of understanding a metagame

So basically, that last line is what's important. It's not that Smogon doesn't support the medium, it's that we can't do anything "official" like a set of analysis articles or ban lists or anything else because it's just not a reliable enough way to glean information into 2v2 battles based on WiFi alone. Think about how long it takes to do one battle of 6 pokemon singles on WiFi compared to shoddy. There's just way more battles getting done on shoddy so we can get a larger set of information on the metagame. The same will happen for doubles when shoddybattle 2 is released this fall. So I was only partially correct before and should have emphasized this more in my second post. I apologize for that. But again, the lack of analysis doesn't mean it's frowned upon. As I said, people on the forums still know things about 2v2 and can/will help. Smogon is still a good place to come for advice on all things competitive pokemon.

As for your locked thread, EE directed you to the "battle me" thread instead meaning that he felt all WiFi battles should be found using the same temporary thread instead of splitting it into two based on play style. Not that you couldn't search out doubles battles on the site.
 
Just wondering... Doesn't Dragonair evolve into Dragonite at 55? Shouldn't Dragonite be banned as well, then?
 
but WiFi isn't played enough at a competitive level, and even if it were, WiFi is a dubious way of understanding a metagame
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I play it at a competitive level every day and many others do to. Am I misunderstanding this?

Also, Shoddy sounds like a "shoddy" way of understanding a metagame. It has glitches and does not reliably mimic the REAL game. A great example of this would be the Nashville finals where IPL or Omega (I forgot) Tricked a choice item because he forgot it doesn't force you into trick on Shoddy but it does in the real game.

I didn't think Metagross would be locked into Trick at all. I guess I'm too used to buggy Shoddybattle.
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How can anyone reliably glean any "information" about what teams are good and whatnot from some buggy program not produced by Nintendo?
 
mattj said:
How can anyone reliably glean any "information" about what teams are good and whatnot from some buggy program not produced by Nintendo?
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Mattj, in my opinion, is completely right. Now, don't get me wrong, Shoddy is convenient if you want to test out a team. But I don't understand why some people just don't breed their Pokémon. After all, we know that DPPt Wifi is official and reliable but Shoddy is full of bugs.
 
'Opinions cannot become a fact'

Anyways I was playing Zog the other day whom was using Shoeman's VGC Worlds Team. Using basically a Entei and Abomasnow lead, now automatically Zog really was strongly anti-entei which I found confusing. He then brought up Heatran over Entei debate. So I was wondering what people thought?

(4) What pokemon do a better job? Example does Heatran do a better job then Modest Entei?

Discuss. :D

BTW, nice topic!
 
As always, it entirely depends on what you want to achieve with these Pokémon. The only advantage I can see in Entei is that it obviously doesn't have a quad Ground weakness and is a tad faster than Heatran. Additionally, it disposes of Eruption but then again, Typhlosion is by far a better choice due to higher special attack.

The typing is what makes Heatran a special Pokémon in VGC since it can cover many weaknesses and it has the stats to take a few beating and dish out some good damage.
 
drug_duck said:
As always, it entirely depends on what you want to achieve with these Pokémon. The only advantage I can see in Entei is that it obviously doesn't have a quad Ground weakness and is a tad faster than Heatran. Additionally, it disposes of Eruption but then again, Typhlosion is by far a better choice due to higher special attack.

The typing is what makes Heatran a special Pokémon in VGC since it can cover many weaknesses and it has the stats to take a few beating and dish out some good damage.
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Unfortunately Entei gets Eruption at too high a level to use in the VGC. :/
 
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