• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

VGC's Metagame

Heatran also has Explosion in its learnset which, to me, is an extremely helpful fact whether you actually use the move or not. Unless you've seen 4 different moves used by Heatran you still have to keep in mind that it could explode on you as an opponent. That's a fun extra mind game.


mattj how many doubles battles do you play a day? OK, now on a simulator multiply that number by some arbitrary number like 4 or 5 and that's probably how many you could do in the same amount of time. Give or take. There's just more battles that get played which means more testing which means more teams get perfected faster which means more people realize what true threats are which means more teams get designed to counter those threats and the cycle repeats until it stabilizes. All at a faster clip. And this can be documented like it's done with the OU, UU, Uber stats for each month. It's a reliable way to measure usage and study what really is common in the game. You can't do that over WiFi.

I'm sure the new shoddybattle will have glitches but Colin speaks very highly of the new version. The whole battle system that shoddy uses now is scrapped for a better, more accurate one that will support doubles. If you're concerned about how moves will work, I suggest you "quiz him" on IRC. He seems to know how all the mechanics properly work now and seems intent on making sure they're implemented correctly. Only time will tell, but I think your concerns there will be moot in a few months.
 
Plus Entei has a limited movepool and worse stats as it is.

Its only useable special moves in VGC are a fire-type STAB move and shadow ball, anyway. It also has worse stats than Heatran in everything other than speed, notably in special attack, and pretty much no worthwhile resistances. Its physical movepool isn't really worth mentioning either, and you can pretty much have it all covered in fire fang, iron head and stone edge. These factors lead to Entei being not only a poor performer but also predictable, making it doubly bad. Note how this is why I was able to switch in my Heatran without taking any damage and for a free flash fire boost, which allowed Heatran to sweep your team.

And on top of all this, it's virtually impossible to get a decent Entei. Un-RNGable and essentially un-SRable, unless you have a gamecube game and one hell of a lot of spare time. From what I've heard, it takes around half an hour for each legendary dog SR on Colosseum. The FR/LG dogs are also a farce because their IVs are set to be almost all 0s, plus they're also completely un-SRable unless you're considering replaying the entire storyline including the Sevii Islands time and time again. This also renders hidden power pretty much unuseable because you'll probably be SRing for an entire day just to get one in the right nature, regardless of IVs or hidden power. In fact there probably isn't a single legit HP ground 70 modest Entei out there, anywhere. On the other hand Heatran is fully RNGable and has much more varied and viable attacking options as well as better stats and better typing.

It's not that I hate Entei: I simply can't understand why anyone would want to use one in a tournament setting. The only reason I can think of is if you want to look cool or something, using a NU legendary. Thing is, 'looking cool' is what makes you lose in Round 1. If you actually want to do well, don't use Entei. It's just as important as, say, not DCing when you're losing. :P
 
Yeah, basically it seems Entei doesn't get a very good movepool to abuse his high Attack, he doesn't even get Earthquake which at least would warrant some sort EQ/FF/Protect/??? set to help him. Also like others have said, he can't use eruption in VGC due to the level and must settle with Heatwave, a combo Typholosion does better.

Just reading the thread very quickly, the only reason that smogon doesn't support doubles is due it's "Shoddy is Supreme" policy. Testing can easily be done in NBS despite all it's glitches, which is what another site is doing right now.
 
Carl said:
<@Carl> could you explain "why" so i can quote this to vash so he'll stop being dumb
Click to expand...
Ehh.. this kind of ends the debate for me, when people start getting personal. It too easily turns into a flamewar.

Dalevl said:
Just reading the thread very quickly, the only reason that smogon doesn't support doubles is due it's "Shoddy is Supreme" policy. Testing can easily be done in NBS despite all it's glitches, which is what another site is doing right now.
Click to expand...
They are quite aware of both or these factors. :P

As far as "Shoddy is Supreme," in the past they have relied heavily on NetBattle. So really, it only comes down to who gets the simulator online faster because Smogon is fickle xD. Anyway, NBS is with Doubles just how Shoddy was with Singles when it was first introduced - buggy and semi-unreliable. But NBS has far fewer bugs then people may believe atm, as far as double-battling goes.
 
VashTheStampede said:
They are quite aware of both or these factors. :P

As far as "Shoddy is Supreme," in the past they have relied heavily on NetBattle. So really, it only comes down to who gets the simulator online faster because Smogon is fickle xD. Anyway, NBS is with Doubles just how Shoddy was with Singles when it was first introduced - buggy and semi-unreliable. But NBS has far fewer bugs then people may believe atm, as far as double-battling goes.
Click to expand...

Except that one of those is the free turn glitch, which always seems to appear in my battles. Not to mention NBS is 6v6 :/
 
Yeah, the number of glitches isn't really a factor, it's how much of an impact those glitches have on the game. When Sucker Punch fails when it shouldn't have, it's a big factor. When your opponent gets free turns after your pokemon died to residual damage, it's a big factor.
 
It wasn't a personal jab at you Vash no need to get all offended. I just reused Misty's word so he'd give me a reason instead of just saying "it's dumb." Nobody is flaming anyone.

My personal favorite NB glitch for doubles is No Guard Machamp with a OHKO partner. Try testing your strategies against that garbage lol.



edit: vash you're reading waaaaay too much into this. relax. misty called "do[ing] anything until we get a simulator that supports [doubles]" (he reaffirmed what i said) dumb. your position is that we should have doubles articles if we "openly support" the style of play, is it not? i was just looking for a reason as to why writing doubles articles would be dumb, aka why your position is "dumb". not you. i hope i spelled it out clearly enough.
 
edit = wow, I take a long time to type up responses, as I was beaten by like 5 other people >_> first part is kind of redundant now


I would like to point out that there IS a doubles simlator (NetBattle Supremacy) and it IS being used by some to test out teams and pokes and such. Just because it's not endorsed by Smogon as an official simluator doesn't mean it doesn't exist. :p Now, NBS does have a few bugs, as does Shoddy; so they are somewhat equal in that right(I know more NBS bugs than I do Shoddy since I frequent NBS a lot more). Mattj has already pointed out one in Trick on Shoddy, and I know of some bugs in NBS, one involving Encore.

lol yeah, Carl pointed out another big one IMO, the No Guard glitch. I've explained it's error to so many inexperienced players, and they still don't believe me. x)

For the Heatran/Entei duscussion, Heatran is the better choice IMO. Resistance to normal moves(Explosion and Return mainly), Flash Fire is pretty useful when switching in and out, and plenty of resistances. Plus it has a much better movepool than Entei does(but a much higher Sp. Attack to utilize it). Only downside is 4x weakness to Ground moves, but Shuca can help dampen that downside, and a weakness to fighting. It is weak to water, but in Rain neither have a chance for surviving anyways, so it doesn't really matter. :P
 
Puffern said:
Except that one of those is the free turn glitch, which always seems to appear in my battles. Not to mention NBS is 6v6 :/
Click to expand...
NBS also does Doubles? That's why it's being used. :\ When the Free Turn glitch happens, we start a new game. Not like we do testing with strangers all the time, usually with certain people to yeild the proper results.
Carl said:
It wasn't a personal jab at you Vash no need to get all offended. I just reused Misty's word so he'd give me a reason instead of just saying "it's dumb." Nobody is flaming anyone.
"Misty's word?" So great, the Admis call me dumb even though all I did was take a quote from one of their Mods. If I am misunderstanding, then correct me.

My personal favorite NB glitch for doubles is No Guard Machamp with a OHKO partner. Try testing your strategies against that garbage lol.
Click to expand...
Machamp can be worked around. It's not like every team has Machamp. Even TR Teams aren't 100% ensured to have Machamp. The only thing that is 100% Certain on a TR team is that it has TR. Usually, either Zong, Dusk, or now Mismagius.
 
VashTheStampede said:
NBS also does Doubles? That's why it's being used. :\ When the Free Turn glitch happens, we start a new game. Not like we do testing with strangers all the time, usually with certain people to yeild the proper results.
Click to expand...

Lol I know it has doubles, I'm saying that it has 6v6 double battles, instead of 4v4 (if it does have a working 4v4, i havent found it yet).

Also I know you just start a new game, but it happens often enough to be a pretty large annoyance.
 
Sixonesix said:
I guess as a more fragile/offensive version of Dusknoir? Dusknoir does the Imprison + Trick Room + Protect thing a lot better though.
Click to expand...
Yeah maybe a bit more offensive, but Dusknoir at least can at least pull off Rock Slide and hopefully flinch. If anyone could though, I'd love to see a video of Mismagius in a TR team, it'd be pretty cool to see that kind of thing pulled off!
 
Zog said:
Mismagius? Wow what a rubbish trick roomer. How does that one work?
Click to expand...
It's MOLF 2.0. I believe it's
@Power(item)
Perish Song
Trick (Or Protect?)
Shadow Ball
Trick Room

It's not supposed to stay in long. It basically just sets up TR, TAKES somebody's valuable item, and then, if somehow lategame comes, Perish Song is used. Never played with or against it TBH. And I believe it still 2HKOs Dusknoir variants, which is a nice advantage to have.

@Carl: Alright, I gotcha. Still, there are ways to get around the glitches here and there on NBS, plus, just like for Shoddy, we just need to wait for those certain glitches to be patched or fixed. As far as articles go, I know you guys had 1-2 on-site before any of this was looked into, and is where I got a bit of my information when I started learning. But just because you have an article or 2 down doesn't say you support it, rather that you recognize that it exists, which is a good thing. :)

But it looks like some work has been done in C&C (Which will -always- stand for Command and Conquer for me!), so kudos to the staff. I would help out as well, but I got put on my ass on my last offer. And I usually stick with first impressions. But no need to worry, you guys aren't missing much. :D
 
I was thinking about the doubles lead game, and was trying to come up with something that would beat most common lead combos, and I think I found something:

Gengar@Choice Specs
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
Timid

-Shadow Ball
-HP Ice
-Sludge Bomb
-Trick/Focus Blast

Lucario@Focus Sash
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
Timid (Modest)/Inner Focus
-Vacuum Wave
-Dark Pulse
-Dragon Pulse
-Aura Sphere

Vacuum Wave and HP Ice will kill any Garchomp or Zapdos. Specsgar's Shadow Ball has a slim chance to OHKO 252/252 Dusknoirs (but most focus on physical defense and a 252/0 is always OHKO'd) but Dark Pulse finishes it off. Both are immune to Fake Out which prevents people from setting up as easily. Dragon Pulse OHKOs Kingdra while Focus Sash prevents the OHKO in return. Shadow Ball + Aura Sphere KO's Metagross, no attack that hits both pokes is SE (or even extremely threatening) on both as Lucario 4x resists Rock while Gengar is immune to ground (that still leaves Surf, but if they're running a Water absorber in the rain, it will probably be killed).

I realize that's just the leads, but I find the lead game extremely interesting, moreso perhaps than the metagame as a whole.
 
It's just basically Battle Tower with only Pokemon obtainable at level 50. Pupitar evolves into Tyranitar at 55 so it's banned. Soul Dew doesn't work in Battle Tower. Judgment is only from Arceus which wasn't released when VGC was announced so it was banned as it was impossible to obtain. Dragonite is 50 from Saikyou event.
 
VashTheStampede said:
That's 6 Pokemon if I counted right.. but the way you smashed it into 1 sentence, I really can't tell. Put it into proper format, and BTW, the VGC can only have 4 Poekmon (with 2 extras to switch items and Pokemon between battles).
Click to expand...

K sorry for the late reply.

Let's pretend I run:

Scarf Metagross with

Trick/Bullet Punch
Ice Punch
Earthquake
Explosion/Meteor Mash

and

Togekiss (life orb) with

ExtremeSpeed
Flame Thrower
Protect
(filler)

Will Metagross' ice punch be enough to take out garchomp/hurt Zapdos or Latias or Latios alot? Also, I'm wondering if this could counter Smeargle's Dark Void strategy by ESing with Togekiss then attacking with Metagross? I'm using the synergy of flying+earthquake and Protect+EQ.
 
Eraddd said:
K sorry for the late reply.

Let's pretend I run:

Scarf Metagross with

Trick/Bullet Punch
Ice Punch
Earthquake
Explosion/Meteor Mash

and

Togekiss (life orb) with

ExtremeSpeed
Flame Thrower
Protect
(filler)

Will Metagross' ice punch be enough to take out garchomp/hurt Zapdos or Latias or Latios alot? Also, I'm wondering if this could counter Smeargle's Dark Void strategy by ESing with Togekiss then attacking with Metagross? I'm using the synergy of flying+earthquake and Protect+EQ.
Click to expand...

According to the mods here I don't battle "competitively" because I don't use shoddy, but I've never come across a Garchomp that doesn't have Yache. 2X superefective is nice, but just off the top of my head it doesn't sound like it would KO it. If it was Banded instead of Scarfed maybe..., why not run a band instead of a scarf? Priority if you think you'll be too slow, otherwise EQ/Explode for an even bigger bang?

By the way, what's this "filler" move everyone keeps talking about? I can't seem to find it in any of the lists...hmmmmm...does Arceus learn it or something...hmmmmm....
 
Nobody said you don't battle competitively. Please learn to read. I brought this on myself I guess so I'm just going back to lurking in Stark after this..


Excuse my rambling..

While I know OmegaDonut used a Trick/Scarf Metagross on the way to Worlds, I'd probably play it a bit safer and use an Occa or a Shuca Berry on your Metagross. You could still double priority move with BP/ES and KO Smeargle most likely. Garchomp would probably still be an issue because as mattj said Yache will be what you see most. Though to be honest, I'd probably just try to explode on Chomp/Zapdos leads. That could be a bit tricky if they Protect but a first turn Explosion is sometimes the last thing people expect. You look like a genius if it works and you look like an idiot when it doesn't, unfortunately. A Choice Band would work but I'm just really not a big fan of Choice items in VGC format since I don't like to handcuff myself to a single move when I don't have many chances to switch out and reset. It's helpful to be flexible. Do whatever you're more comfortable with, though, since it's you who will be battling with this team.. not any of us.

The last move you want on Togekiss is probably Follow Me. It's a great doubles move and Togekiss is one of the few that actually learns it. Helpful for drawing away a Fake Out directed at Metagross in the early stages and in general helpful to any team.

I'd have to see the rest of the team but I'm not 100% sold on this as a lead combo just because I tried something similar with Azelf instead of Metagross and got mixed results.
 
XD I was just foolin! "Magikarp used Splash! It does nothing! Magikarp used ... Filler!?! It does even less!"
 
Yeah Carl you're definitely right about just exploding on Chomp/Zapdos leads. In London round 3 I faced Electivire/Zapdos, and given how damn obvious it was what he was trying to do I just exploded my Gengar on the pair of them. Did 95% to Zapdos and KOed Electivire with a probably unnecessary crit, then Zapdos died from life orb recoil after doing lol damage to Dusknoir (less than 1/4) and shortly paralysing Dusknoir before he healed with Lum. Was an easy match from then on, against something I forgot and a CM Cresselia strangely named "3 WEEKS!" which was actually quite hard to take out.

And completely off topic: trying to type when you have a kitten chewing your mouse cord is extremely hard. Even moreso when said kitten jumps on your keyboard. And when the kitten's as cute as this:
basil.jpg
 
Carl said:
While I know OmegaDonut used a Trick/Scarf Metagross on the way to Worlds, I'd probably play it a bit safer and use an Occa or a Shuca Berry on your Metagross. You could still double priority move with BP/ES and KO Smeargle most likely. Garchomp would probably still be an issue because as mattj said Yache will be what you see most. Though to be honest, I'd probably just try to explode on Chomp/Zapdos leads. That could be a bit tricky if they Protect but a first turn Explosion is sometimes the last thing people expect. You look like a genius if it works and you look like an idiot when it doesn't, unfortunately. A Choice Band would work but I'm just really not a big fan of Choice items in VGC format since I don't like to handcuff myself to a single move when I don't have many chances to switch out and reset. It's helpful to be flexible. Do whatever you're more comfortable with, though, since it's you who will be battling with this team.. not any of us.

The last move you want on Togekiss is probably Follow Me. It's a great doubles move and Togekiss is one of the few that actually learns it. Helpful for drawing away a Fake Out directed at Metagross in the early stages and in general helpful to any team.

I'd have to see the rest of the team but I'm not 100% sold on this as a lead combo just because I tried something similar with Azelf instead of Metagross and got mixed results.
Click to expand...

Crap. FOrgot Garchomp carried a yache... Time to attack it's dragon weakness...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top