tl;dr -- a "stream of consciousness" that goes through possible reasons yanmega could be BL in an attempt to start a discussion.
I tried to make the purpose of my post clear at several different points in it but I guess I should have been more explicit. I wasn't trying to provide a coherent argument as to why Yanmega should be banned under the offensive characteristic. I was just commenting on how it can hit a lot of stuff hard and it is relatively easy for me to get rid of things that stand in its way. It was meant as a way to potentially start a discussion about whether the fact that team support to take out Registeel / Chansey or take advantage of free switches from those Pokemon means the supporting Pokemon is BL or Yanmega is BL or nobody is BL.
So your broken Yanmega set is U-turn/Bug Buzz/Air Slash/Protect/HP Ground/Substitute @ Choice Specs, Petaya Berry and Life Orb with Speed Boost and Tinted Lens, and you know exactly what move your opponent is going to make so that you can act accordingly?
You're putting words into my mouth here -- I didn't say that this set was broken, I just said that I have been playing around with it and I think it has the potential to be a BL.
Also the second part of my post was just basically there to agree with the posters before me who were talking about how deadly Speed Boost versions can be late-game. Just because I agree that a set is good and has swept me a few times doesn't mean that I'm trying to make a formal nomination for it to be BL.
Standard 100 Atk EV Registeel Iron Head vs Standard min/min Dugtrio: 211 Atk vs 136 Def & 211 HP (80 Base Power): 135 - 159 (63.98% - 75.36%)
LO Dugtrio (standard from what I've seen) EQ vs 252 HP/0 Def Registeel: 259 Atk vs 336 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 216 - 254 (59.34% - 69.78%)
just randomly switching to Dugtrio is going to get you KOd. It's not a magic solution to taking out counters like people are making it out to be. In order to reliably take out Registeel (especially RestTalk versions that are getting more popular in my experience), you have to sac something first. When talking about using Dugtrio, just keep in mind that we are talking about a pokemon with 35/50/70 defenses, by far the worst in UU. To put that in perspective, Togepi has better defenses than Dugtrio.
This is obvious and I think if you are an even relatively smart user of Dugtrio you won't switch him in a predicted Iron Head -- you'll switch Dugtrio in when you think Registeel will Thunder Wave or Stealth Rock. It's obviously not a magic wand to taking out Dugtrio, I was just mentioning that it is pretty damn easy to take out Registeel with either Magneton or Dugtrio.
Yanmega is a great pokemon in UU from what I've seen, but I've also noticed some glaring flaws with it. The Speed Boost versions are "hard-countered" by a lot of things in the tier, and anything with reasonable SpDef can beat it. Altaria, Milotic, Registeel, Chansey, Regirock (resists both STABs), Steelix (resists both STABs), Moltres, Articuno, etc etc. Even Roserade isn't OHKOd by Air Slash after a tiny HP investment.
The Tinted Specs versions hit hard, but they are easily revenge killed. With Stealth Rock around, good luck getting more than 2 hits in during a match.
Okay.
I'm not trying to pick on you specifically or influence people's opinions of a pokemon either way, I am just trying to point people in the right direction regarding things that we will be looking for when reading any potential BL nominations. If you think a pokemon is broken, especially by the offensive characteristic, you should be able to explain how its shortcomings can be overcome easily. You just said "use Dugtrio and Magneton", as if that is a realistic option for everyone using Yanmega. Even if it was, that would be evidence that Dugtrio/Magneton would be BL under the support characteristic, not that Yanmega is broken under the offensive characteristic.
Since the majority of this post is saying that my last post was an attempt at starting a discussion I guess it would be kind of lame if I didn't try to start said discussion. I'll just focus on a potential nomination for Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega because I haven't really used the Speed Boost version much. Note that I'm not convinced myself that this should be BL and the rest of this post is as much an "essay" as it is notes for myself.
1. Specs Yanmega outspeeds and 2HKOs a very large portion of the metagame. I went through the top 50 used UU Pokemon in July and these are those who have even occasionally seen sets who can survive two hits from a Specs Yanmega: Registeel, Mismagius, Milotic, Clefable, Chansey, Altaria.
Registeel: counter.
Mismagius: only the Calm max HP / almost max SpD version can take hits, and that's relatively rare -- more than 80% of Mismagius ran no SpD EVs at all.
Milotic: what I assume to be standard 252/0 versions take a minimum of 38% from Timid (41% average) and 42% from Modest (45% average).
Clefable: "most" (40%) Clefable ran 252/0 and those take a minimum of 50% from Bug Buzz. More specially based variants obviously survive.
Chansey: counter.
Altaria: 2HKOd after SR or even 2HKOd without SR depending on the spread.
there are also other random things like Articuno or (lol all my teams are weak to this) Curse Lapras but I didn't include them because they aren't in the top fifty for usage and IMO top fifty is a pretty good snapshot at what the metagame comprises.
Offensive Characteristic: The list of these "safe" switch-ins is IMO a large portion of whether the given Pokemon can sweep a large portion of the metagame (other factors in #2). Registeel and Chansey are definitely counters to Yanmega, as are extremely specially defensive variants of Clefable. Mismagius lacks reliable recovery so Yanmega's assaults can either be considered to fulfill the offensive characteristic or part of the support characteristic because it takes a massive chunk of HP away from Mismagius just with one hit. Based on average damage spreads, to be able to switch in Milotic should be at 88% before SR damage and one round of Leftovers recovery for Timid and at 96% for Modest. It's pretty rare that Milotic will have such a low amount of residual damage so I think it is "relatively easy" for Yanmega to sweep through a team with Milotic as their Yanmega counter.
Support Characteristic: I also think that if a given Pokemon can all but guarantee to take out a Pokemon on the opposing team it should logically be considered a potential BL. If you can put six Pokemon on a team and every one of your Pokemon can guarantee a kill on an opposing Pokemon before it dies, you win -- so if you can put one Pokemon on your team and it can guarantee at least one kill, it on average means you should win more than if you didn't have said Pokemon on your team. the fact that Yanmega would tend to take out a largely defensive Pokemon opens up the opposing team for a sweep from something else on your team, which means it would satisfy the support characteristic -- for example a NP Houndoom would like life much better if Milotic were out of the way.
2. Being able to easily sweep a metagame also includes things like being able to be easily revenge killed or inability to switch in multiple times (perhaps due to SR). From how I've been playing specs Yanmega and how others I stalk on Shoddy play it, it's not really a question of being revenge killed because it can easily switch out and come back in the next turn and hit just as hard as it did before with no setup. the only thing preventing it from this hit and run attacking is the prevalence of stealth rock. A few responses to "just keep SR up and force it out with priority" that could be used to support a nomination:
a. "lol rapid spin" not every team has SR and even if they do there are tons of viable spinners like Donphan Hitmontop even Claydol or Blastoise. I don't think it is too ridiculous to assume that teams who try to use Specs Yanmega to sweep will carry a spinner that can relatively reliably get rid of rocks, moreso than an offensive team with just one 2x SR weak. this obviously isn't the best argument against "SR checks" but dude it is seriously hard to keep SR up when the other team is determined as hell to spin rocks away so Yanmega can come back in and abuse Bug Buzz again.
b. Uturn. specs Yanmega's movepool is basically Air Slash / Bug Buzz / Uturn / Filler. It is probably safe to say that most teams which include registeel have stealth rock on their Registeel and if they have Registeel they'll probably switch it into Yanmega rather than decide to sac another Pokemon before bringing it in. Therefore if you Uturn first turn with Yanmega you'll be able to either bring in something like Magneton or Dugtrio into Registeel or just something like Torterra or Donphan who can abuse the free switch and force Registeel out. This is somewhat similar to the "crobat stops SR because it taunts its counters who are the only ones that carry SR". of couse if your opponent has SR on someone else it's still going up but I think a decent portion of the time, yanmega will be able to stop rocks from coming up just by bringing in counters to its counters through uturn.
c. this doesn't matter. any competent Specs Yanmega user will use an odd HP stat so it can switch in twice times with rocks up, or it can have three shots if it gets in before rocks are up. there aren't many suicide leads in UU and I use Specs Yanmega as a lead so I think at least a relatively large portion of the time Yanmega gets three switch ins on the enemy team. This means if the first time Yanmega comes in and scouts its counter, it hopefully won't switch in again until its counter is weakened enough for it KO or is fainted. Therefore it has two switch-ins to wreak havoc on the enemy team. because there are a very small number of safe switch-ins to Yanmega, every time it switches in -- if its counter is weakened -- something is dying. two switch ins to SR means two opposing Pokemon are fainted, which is more than enough in exchange for a team slot.
3. Does the support needed to eliminated Pokemon like Chansey and Registeel mean the supporting Pokemon is BL? Upon reflection I think this is the weakest part of the BL argument and potentially signals that Yanmega should be UU instead.
a. carrying a trapper may be a little "unusual" but it is certainly not "ridiculous" for a team with Specs Yanmega to carry ways to trap and kill its counters. its kind of silly for someone to put specs Yanmega on a team and not give it any support to kill its counters. I interpret the words "with little effort" to mean "without drastic measures that would be otherwise unrealistic". the support Pokemon in question (Magneton and Dugtrio) *would* be useful on a team absent Yanmega, so adding Yanmega onto a team doesn't take too much "effort" for it to sweep. I think this part of the argument is quite subjective because it relies on figuring out what "little effort" means -- does it mean Yanmega can sweep by itself without support, or does it mean that Yanmega can sweep with reliable external support that can be easily provided?
b. even if part a is false, Chansey and Registeel are very potent defensive threats in UU and every good team should either have a good way to trap it and take it out (part a) or should have a way to abuse free switches that said Pokemon give (CB donphan for Registeel, for example). this means that every time yanmega comes in (yes yes I know SR) the other person is either losing a Pokemon or giving a potent offensive threat another free shot at their team. this contributes towards the support characteristics. additionally the fact that every team should have some way of abusing these Pokemon potentially helps support Yanmega under the offensive characteristic. now that I think about it this argument could also apply to something like Houndoom that draws in Blissey or Ambipom who gets Uturn and draws in Registeel so I'm not sure how good this argument is. but whatever this is a brainstorm so I'm leaving it here.
c. does this mean Magneton and Dugtrio are BL? I think this question should be more fully resolved if someone did something like this for those two Pokemon but this definitely helps them satisfy the support characteristic. they both can trap Pokemon for things like Swellow, Ambipom, CB Kanga (so strong) to sweep, etc, which is at least part of an argument for a potential BL support characteristic. however, just because Yanmega's supporters might be BL because of Yanmega's power doesn't also mean that Yanmega can't also be BL. I don't think "BL-ness" is zero-sum. lets assume that all the arguments I've said here about Yanmega being BL are true (I don't think they all are; I was playing devils advocate at points to try to figure out lots of different arguments) -- if magneton is nominated for BL because it traps registeel so yanmega can sweep, why does that preclude yanmega from also being able to be BL because it sweeps so easily with just a single pokemon of support?
I know there are probably logical flaws in this argument or maybe some other portions of the portrait of an uber I haven't addressed but I'll blame those on two things: 1. it is 8 am and I have slept half an hour since I woke up at 11 am the day before (not voluntarily, I am not crazy) 2. this is just meant as a discussion starter so it's kind of a stream of consciousness. if I was writing a legitimate nomination for Yanmega this would be much more polished and streamlined.
