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In Game Tiers, Platinum Edition!!
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
- Status
Depending on where we rank Haunter, we should put Drifloon one level below it. It requires a specific date to catch, and it is not quite as sweeper oriented as the Gastly family. Thanks to the plethora of Gastly in a couple sections, a user can simple catch a hand full, and pick the best natured one on a quick playthrough as well.. instead of resetting for a Drifloon. Drifloon is a decent Pokemon though, and Ghost/Flying is decent typing against many in-game threats.
Accessibility is a huge impact on score. In-game tiering is based on how an individual pokemon contributes to the efficient (i.e. fast) pace of a playthrough. The scenario here as I see it is to imagine a person walking into a store, and buying a DS along with a copy of Platinum. He then asks, "What's the best way to play this game?" and logs onto the internet to find an answer.
Would he seriously be convinced if he were to read your post and see that one of the best ways of getting through the game (i.e. through using the best pokemon) is to buy, play through, and finish a completely seperate game, not to mention the need to buy another DS to transfer some data in order to make the first game more enjoyable? The anwser here is plainly no, and thus accounts for Manaphy's abyssmal rating. In order to play a game you should be able to do that with whatever comes in the game's package (along with the media format it's designed to be executed on, in this case).
I understand that Sudo, but an F is way too low for something that could potentially win the entire game by itself. If this person is an avid pokemon fan, they may already own Ranger or wish to buy it regardless. It is a ridiculously easy game to finish, I completed it in a single weekend so its not as if its a big effort. Even if you guys deem it lower then an A because you need Ranger, it is most definitely above an F.
I wouldn't be opposed to moving Magikarp up to S. You can easily solo with it once you manage to evolve it (though that interim period may be enough to knock it down a tier).
I like Piplup at A. It does pretty well against the early gyms, but its movepool is not the greatest. It does get Surf which lets you use your HM Slave for other things. Overall, despite its shortcomings in terms of learned moves at early levels (water gun? lol), it's still REALLY good.
One more for S: Gible. You can catch at a decent level after a few gyms and really does not take that much training to get it up to par. You get the Earthquake TM in the same dungeon so I think that cancels out any shortcomings it may have in learning only dumb ground moves. It also gets Dragon Rage which absolutely rapes anything from the time you get it till ~gyms 5-7.
I like Piplup at A. It does pretty well against the early gyms, but its movepool is not the greatest. It does get Surf which lets you use your HM Slave for other things. Overall, despite its shortcomings in terms of learned moves at early levels (water gun? lol), it's still REALLY good.
One more for S: Gible. You can catch at a decent level after a few gyms and really does not take that much training to get it up to par. You get the Earthquake TM in the same dungeon so I think that cancels out any shortcomings it may have in learning only dumb ground moves. It also gets Dragon Rage which absolutely rapes anything from the time you get it till ~gyms 5-7.
Chimchar technically learns Flamethrower at around level 40, but you'd be crazy to wait that long to evolve. Just snag a Fire Blast TM from the Veilstone Department Store (but we can't go there, can we, since it's not necessary...).
When you can KO your opponent's pokemon without them even making a move, I'd think everyone would agree that'd be vastly superior to 'bulk'. Not to mention the recoil from Wood Hammer, his best STAB option, only detracts from his statistical advantage over Infernape.
I'd have to disagree with this list. Beating the gyms isn't necessarily just a matter of type trumping, and I'll aim to show why. I'll be using a similar grading system, but with a subtle difference:
- +0 for no advantage, both pokemon are equally useless or useful.
- +1 for slight advantage, meaning both pokemon are useful, but one is slightly better
- +2 for total advantage.
It only gets downhill for Turtwig here, being rather useless in Gardenia's gym. Advantage: Chimchar +2
Then we get to Fantina. Ooh, look, Turtwig (preferably Grotle by this point) gets Bite! Then you take a look at Fantina's team, which uses rather speedy pokemon with annoying status moves: Will-O-Wisp. Hypnosis. Confuse Ray. While you're spending your time healing Grotle of these ailments due to his slow speed, Monferno actually has a chance of going first, with the option of either Taunting his opponents or going full out and smacking their pitiful defense hard with STAB Flame Wheel (not to mention immunity to Burn, which is a great plus against Fantina's bulky Duskull). Advantage: Chimchar +1
We arrive in Veilstone city, home to Maylene, fighting-type user extraordinaire. Her team consists of Meditite, Machoke, and Lucario; Meditite is easily dispatched due to its frailty, while Machoke can be 2KO'd more or less if it wastes a turn using Focus Energy. Lucario is then easily beaten with a combination of Mach Punch/Fire move, while Grotle has to struggle a bit as the only super effective move it has to hit it with at this point is Rock Smash. Seriously, it does not learn EQ, Dig, or Mud-Slap (lol) yet. Advantage: Chimchar +1
We move south to Pastoria, where Crasher Wake rules the surf. His team consists of Gyarados, Quagsire, and Floatzel. You'd think Grotle/Torterra has little problems here, but Ice Fang fron Floatzel, Quagsire's Yawn, Gyarados's Intimidate and neutrality to Grass, and Wood Hammer's recoil (which you prett much need to use if you want to stand a chance) are not going to make this a fun time. Monferno/Infernape might have trouble with Gyarados's high Sp.Def and neutrality to Grass Knot, but the other two are easily taken care of. Advantage: 0
Proceed to Byron, master of his Steel-type domain. Both do well here against his relatively slow team of Magneton, Steelix, and Bastiodon, but Infernape's Close Combat is, simply put, utter annihilation in the form of a first-turn, wrecking ball of doom. Against Steelix's high defense he can use Fire Blast to charm the metal snake into submission, something Torterra has a harder time with, primarily from being forced to focus on his Attack stat and being weak to Steelix's Ice Fang. Advantage: Chimchar +1
Next up is Candice, user of Ice. Enough said. Advantage: Chimchar +2
Lastly we have Volkner, whose team is made up of Jolteon, Raichu, Luxray, and Elective. Torterra has an easy time with Jolteon, but the battle takes a turn for the worst when you learn Raichu uses Signal Beam, Luxray has Ice and Fire Fang, and Electivire also uses Fire Fang, all of which can put a large dent in the ankylosaurus's hide before he sends them away in the sweet, beckoning call of Earthquake. Infernape here only really has to watch out for paraylsis in order to sweep unhindered with Fire Blast/Flare Blitz + Close Combat, which comes in the form of a T-Wave from Jolteon (KO'd easily with a boosted Mach Punch) and Raichu's Static (use a Special move). Luxray has Rivalry, not Intimidate here, but Infernape doesn't really care either way. Advantage: Chimchar +1
Just to recap:
Gyms:
#1 Roark: +0
#2 Gardenia: +2, Chimchar
#3 Fantina: +1, Chimchar
#4 Maylene: +1, Chimchar
#5 Crasher Wake: +0
#6 Byron: +1, Chimchar
#7 Candice: +2, Chimchar
#8: Volkner: +1, Chimchar
Chimchar is at an amazing +8 advantage for gyms if you agree with how I evalutated the gym challenges (check them up on Bulbapedia if you don't believe me). I'd do the Elite Four challenge next but currently, I'm too beat. I'll update later. If I've made any obvious mistakes please point them out and I'll rectify them as soon as I'm able.
Oh god, I just realized I forgot about how Piplup factors into all of this. EH WHO CARES I'M TOO TIRED NOW
Duskull for B at least.
He's a pain in the butt to raise initially since he's fail at offense, but there are random fighting types in this game that can't scratch him which helps. Once he evolves and becomes Dusclops, he starts becoming incredibly awesome with Wilo-Wisp for stalling enemies to death and neutering physical threats.
Curse also has its uses for getting rid of stuff that needs to be gotten rid of since the AI rarely switches. Being a priority user (Shadow Sneak) gives him extra utility too especially against Lucian.
He's a pain in the butt to raise initially since he's fail at offense, but there are random fighting types in this game that can't scratch him which helps. Once he evolves and becomes Dusclops, he starts becoming incredibly awesome with Wilo-Wisp for stalling enemies to death and neutering physical threats.
Curse also has its uses for getting rid of stuff that needs to be gotten rid of since the AI rarely switches. Being a priority user (Shadow Sneak) gives him extra utility too especially against Lucian.
Infernape is better than Torterra, now with that out of the way:
You're aware all of those Ice Fangs, if you've been keeping Torterra at a decent level, don't come close to OHKOing him? The fact you call them equal on Crasher Wake as well, hurr. Infernape has no chance of defeating Gyarados, Grass Knot included. Torterra can Leech Seed by this point, and hit him with STAB neutral attacks. Infernape is also threatened by STAB Aqua Jet from Floatzel at least as much as Torterra is from Ice Fang.
Turtwig also has a +1 on the first gym for not being threatened by Onix, or Cranidos, who you will fail to KO with Mach Punch (in Onix case, 3HKO at best unless you have a +Attack nature.. and even then it is not certain).
You mention that Torterra has no good attacks by Veilstone City, but it SHOULD be a Torterra by the Gym battle, and those have Earthquake. You seem to neglect, or don't know how Torterra levels up. This should be a draw.
Don't act like Monferno has it easy against the Ghost gym either. Both outspeed Duskull and OHKO it. There is no threat of Will-O-Wisp. Haunter outspeeds both, and can put either of them to sleep. Monferno is more threatened by his lesser defenses. Mismagius outspeeds both of them again, but this time OHKOs Monferno with Psybeam. Why lol at Bite? It destroys every Pokemon, whereas Flame Wheel does less? Grotle wins this Gym, and easily.
I might argue Byron should also be a draw, but Infernape's secure OHKO on Steelix is a great selling point. The fact is, Torterra has the potential to OHKO each though, and in fact, is not threatened by Steelix's Ice Fang as much as Infernape is by missing with Fire Blast.
Torterra walls Volkner's Jolteon, where Jolteon actually threatens Infernape. Whereas you mention Torterra is threatened by Signal Beam, evens things out. Infernape is at risk in this battle if he uses Close Combat too much, as three of the four Pokemon carry Quick Attack to dispatch it. Even worse, if you're running a -Def nature for mix attacking.
Infernape is definitely better, but you're stretching it pretty far.
You're aware all of those Ice Fangs, if you've been keeping Torterra at a decent level, don't come close to OHKOing him? The fact you call them equal on Crasher Wake as well, hurr. Infernape has no chance of defeating Gyarados, Grass Knot included. Torterra can Leech Seed by this point, and hit him with STAB neutral attacks. Infernape is also threatened by STAB Aqua Jet from Floatzel at least as much as Torterra is from Ice Fang.
Turtwig also has a +1 on the first gym for not being threatened by Onix, or Cranidos, who you will fail to KO with Mach Punch (in Onix case, 3HKO at best unless you have a +Attack nature.. and even then it is not certain).
You mention that Torterra has no good attacks by Veilstone City, but it SHOULD be a Torterra by the Gym battle, and those have Earthquake. You seem to neglect, or don't know how Torterra levels up. This should be a draw.
Don't act like Monferno has it easy against the Ghost gym either. Both outspeed Duskull and OHKO it. There is no threat of Will-O-Wisp. Haunter outspeeds both, and can put either of them to sleep. Monferno is more threatened by his lesser defenses. Mismagius outspeeds both of them again, but this time OHKOs Monferno with Psybeam. Why lol at Bite? It destroys every Pokemon, whereas Flame Wheel does less? Grotle wins this Gym, and easily.
I might argue Byron should also be a draw, but Infernape's secure OHKO on Steelix is a great selling point. The fact is, Torterra has the potential to OHKO each though, and in fact, is not threatened by Steelix's Ice Fang as much as Infernape is by missing with Fire Blast.
Torterra walls Volkner's Jolteon, where Jolteon actually threatens Infernape. Whereas you mention Torterra is threatened by Signal Beam, evens things out. Infernape is at risk in this battle if he uses Close Combat too much, as three of the four Pokemon carry Quick Attack to dispatch it. Even worse, if you're running a -Def nature for mix attacking.
Infernape is definitely better, but you're stretching it pretty far.
Yanma - B - Yanma can be caught in the Great Marsh. While getting it can be annoying, it's only a few levels away from evolving, and Yanmega is no slouch, with 116 base satk and Tinted Lens. However, it does have some difficulties, as it doesn't learn its best attacks, Air Slash and Bug Buzz, until fairly high levels, so until then, it has to get by on Ancient power and TMs/Tutors. Still, with the proper attacks, it can rip things up, and Tinted Lens means it never has to worry about type resistances.
I think you summed it up pretty well, but the point I am getting at is Turtwig most definitely deserves the S-class. I don't understand why people are using the arbitrary label of "starter" to define them, when both are in fact two of the best pokemon to use throughout the game.
@ Sudo: I don't agree with your grading scale, I am damn near positive mine is more accurate.
I don't think too many people are going to hold off their Chimchar's evolution for that long, and what special attack are you thinking to use after Plotting? Also, I doubt people will bother SRing until the lady gives them a Passho Berry. Also, it could well still be Monferno at that point.
And I'm getting sick of people saying Chatot comes too late. There's an in-game trade for one in Eterna, and you can catch them on the route to Pastoria in Platinum. Also in the route near Canalave at a higher level. They weren't in these places in D/P though.
Grass Knot is a 1HKO on Gyarados after Nasty Plot.
That's how I beat Wake honestly...I might blame it on the fact I was planning to run a Nasty Plot Infernape for competitive purposes though.
Alternatively, I'm certain you can go for Swords Dance and Thunder Punch if you really hate wasting exclusive TMs, but of course that means Infernape can't take on Quagsire.
That's how I beat Wake honestly...I might blame it on the fact I was planning to run a Nasty Plot Infernape for competitive purposes though.
Alternatively, I'm certain you can go for Swords Dance and Thunder Punch if you really hate wasting exclusive TMs, but of course that means Infernape can't take on Quagsire.
Looks like you will have to remember Close Combat.
A - Cranidos
You can revive with Skull Fossil at Oreburgh at Lv 25 IIRC, and basically soft reset for the nature you want. Teach it Rock Slide and you're good to go, as Cranidos is easily the best recipient. Mows down enemies with extreme ease, and evolves very quickly into Rampardos. Not that you need to if you want to stick around to Lv 43 for Head Smash. Cranidos has the highest Base Attack of any available pokemon, exceeding even Staraptor and Luxray.
You can revive with Skull Fossil at Oreburgh at Lv 25 IIRC, and basically soft reset for the nature you want. Teach it Rock Slide and you're good to go, as Cranidos is easily the best recipient. Mows down enemies with extreme ease, and evolves very quickly into Rampardos. Not that you need to if you want to stick around to Lv 43 for Head Smash. Cranidos has the highest Base Attack of any available pokemon, exceeding even Staraptor and Luxray.
But you forgot the fact that Cranidos is a pain to raise. The experience needed to give Cranidos +1 is almost +2 for the starters <_< so that's why Cranidos should be B
If you're leveling up Chimchar to obtain Nasty Plot for so long, you're already at another disadvantage compared to Turtwig. You won't be receiving STAB on your Fighting attacks for the first few gyms, and you'll be horribly weak. Definintely not the fastest way.
If we can also assume you have access to all the Super Effective Berries as well, Yache Berries for Torterra are at least easy to farm off of Starlys, and basically make him even with Infernape on many of the gyms where Ice Fang might threaten to 2HKO.
Another point for Thunderpunch.. farming for Shards is definitely not a quick way through the game. Although you might get lucky, and find the required shards in half an hour.. you might be stuck digging for a few hours looking for the exact ones.
If we can also assume you have access to all the Super Effective Berries as well, Yache Berries for Torterra are at least easy to farm off of Starlys, and basically make him even with Infernape on many of the gyms where Ice Fang might threaten to 2HKO.
Another point for Thunderpunch.. farming for Shards is definitely not a quick way through the game. Although you might get lucky, and find the required shards in half an hour.. you might be stuck digging for a few hours looking for the exact ones.
Cranidos (and Rampardos) OHKO's basically anything it can hit for neutral, so the actual time differential is less than a starter who could take two moves to KO. Just ingame EV train speed and attack, and you'll have no problem OHKO anything at level parity. The attack power is that ridiculous.
Furthermore according to Serebii, Cranidos has the fastest exp. growth category in the game, Erratic, whereas the starters are Medium Slow. Your argument is invalid.
Actually Deck, if you look here, you'll see that through all the lower levels, Erratic needs more Exp than Medium Slow
Oh, and I probably won't be updating the list till sunday evening
Ice Fang can be an easy 2HKO (4x weakness, anyone?). However, I did oversell Infernape in this gym, as I plainly just forgot about Aqua Jet. Since Torterra is most likely going to outspeed Quagsire as well, and can take down Gyarados eventually, Torterra gets the total advantage here.
Cranidos is easily OHKO'd, where Onix is a three or a two if you got lucky with natures. However, you seem to forget that Fire/Fighting is neutral to rock, and thus Monferno can easily survive
I mentioned Grotle here, not Torterra, since frankly that is what stage he was at when I was cruising through the game (I had a Starly/Staravia in my party since Gardenia's Gym that helped suck away some EXP.). In hindsight, though, we could call this gym a draw.
Hm, yes, I gave Monferno too much credit here. I must have thought that he'd be Infernape at this point (which is entirely plausible with fighting most of the trainers on Cycling Road). I could give Grotle the full advantage here.
That's true enough with the accuracy issue, but Torterra doesn't OHKO Steelix with any of his moves, not even Leaf Storm. Ice Fang isn't too much of a problem, but I still feel Infernape is much better here overall.
Jolteon only gets the chance for one hit in before being OHKO'd, and Infernape's defenses are enough to get him by. T-Wave is taken care of with a berry (if you actually want to waste the time giving it to him, lol) Jolteon's and Raichu's Quick Attacks do pitiful damage really, even after a CC drop or two. Infernape can also use the EQ TM by this point too (although it's found in Wayward Cave, and thus inaccessible because it's...optional. :P)
I agree, I did. I suppose it was just late, I wasn't thinking too straight, and I let my Infernape fanboyism come over me. :P Thank you for bringing up those points.
EDIT: Score recap
Gyms:
#1 Roark: +0
#2 Gardenia: +2, Chimchar
#3 Fantina: +2, Turtwig
#4 Maylene: 0
#5 Crasher Wake: +2, Turtwig
#6 Byron: +1, Chimchar
#7 Candice: +2, Chimchar
#8: Volkner: +1, Chimchar
It's 6-4 in favor of Chimchar, unless there are any other issues you'd like to bring up. I suppose I'll add in the E4 in a bit.
EDIT:
Here's my analysis of Chimchar's/Turtwig's match-ups versus the Elite Four. Reccommended sets for the two:
Infernape @ Whatever
-Calm Mind
-Grass Knot
-Close Combat (for Lucian: Shadow Claw)
-Flare Blitz (for Cynthia: Flamethrower/Fire Blast)
Torterra @ Leftovers/Yache/Lum berries
-Curse
-Wood Hammer (for Cynthia/Lucian: Light Screen)
-Earthquake
-Crunch
Up first we have Aaron, who has Yanmega, Scizor, Heracross, Vespiquen, and Drapion. Infernape pretty much runs rampant with either Flare Bitz/Fire Blast, and as long as you don't use Close Combat on the first turn you face Drapion you'll be able to survive his Aerial and 2HKO back at the least. Needless to say Torterra has a hard time against everyone, even against Drapion with it's great defense; Drapion will also probably outspeed it with its respectable 95 base speed and smack it with any of its 3 moves, bar Cross Poison, for SE damage. Advantage: Chimchar +2
Next up is Bertha with her entourage of ground types: Whiscash, Gliscor, Golem, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior. Four of those five are mauled with Infernape's Grass Knot, but the ape will have problems with Gliscor if he isn't able to OHKO with GK (Ground/Flying is neutral to Grass). The same is likewise for Torterra, but the dinosaur has to watch out for recoil damage as Bertha's team packs a lot of HP. Both have trouble with Gliscor, but I'd say Torterra fares a little better due to immunity to Sandstorm damage (like that's not a problem for Infernape anyway since he's OHKO'ing most of his enemies first-turn anyway), and higher defense to deal with the flying scorpion. If I can get confirmation that Infernape can OHKO Gliscor with relative ease, this'd be a tie, but without further ado: Advantage: Turtwig +1
Flint turns on the heat, in rapid succession, with his team of Houndoom, Flareon, Rapidash, Infernape, and Magmortar. The first two are overwhelmed by Close Combat, and the rest of team has a chance of being OHKO'd as well from CC. If not, you can always use an X-Attack on the first few turns of the battle, as Houndoom can't really touch Infernape. Needless to say Torterra has a snowflake's chance in Hell (no, not Dante's version) of overcoming Flint, even with the option of using Stone Edge. Advantage: Chimchar +2
Lucian is te next hurdle for our two competitors, with a showcase of Mr. Mime, Espeon, Bronzong, Alakazam, and Gallade. Shadow Claw and Flare Blitz both bring the hurt on Mr. Mime, and if you're lucky enough Infernape might be able to outspeed Espeon and OHKO him as well. Bronzong is rather sturdy and will not go down as easily, but a strong fire move should make it an easy 2HKO at the least; Earthquake will hurt but is not as dangerous as it may appear with Bronzong's rather low Attack score, but watch out for CM+Psychic. Alakazam is a huge pain to face if you can't outpace it, but Gallade's low HP and Defense make it an easy target. Torterra gets Crunch, but on the other hand, is slower than 4 out of five members of Lucian's team, doesn't like Mr. Mime's Reflect, and can't really scratch Bronzong outside of Leech Seed and a Curse- boosted Crunch. Torterra can learn Light Screen to help take hits while it sets up, but has to watch out for CM'd Psychics from Bronzong too. This battle is really close, but I think Torterra pulls out ahead. Advantage: Turtwig +1
Finally we approach the Champion, Cythnia, with her famed Spiritomb, Roserade, Togekiss, Lucario, Milotic, and Garchomp. Although Infernape conquers Lucario and Roserade with relative ease (Lucario's ES will hurt a bit though, so I don't reccomend using CC here), the same can't be said likewise of the four remaining; to stand a chance he'll need to set up on Spiritomb with either Calm Mind or Swords Dance (SD is obtained in the Veilstone Game Corner, so it won't be as accessible as CM would be, as a level-up move.). If you're going the physical route, Infernape won't appreciate repeated Psychics from Spiritomb either.
Torterra can set up Curse a bit easier with Light Screen, but Roserade's Posion moves are still going to hurt, and Toxic can ruin its Tanking capability. Torterra also hates Togekiss's Air Slash, but thankfully it has Hustle, not Serence Grace, for its ability. Lucario and Garchomp should be no problem by using EQ from a +6 Atk and Def under your belt, but be wary of Garchomp's Flamethrower.
Milotic's the toughest of the bunch for both starters, and is the reason Infernape should go with a CM set for this battle. I don't know if Light Screen is enough to save Torterra from being OHKO'd by Ice Beam, but there's always Yache berry if you're unlucky enough. In th end, I'd say Infernape fares better here, since both have the need to set up in order to succeed; he outspeeds all of Cynthia's fighters and makes shorter work of this match then Torterra would. Advantage: Chimchar +1
Barring future discussion, here is the final score:
Gyms:
#1 Roark: +0
#2 Gardenia: +2, Chimchar
#3 Fantina: +2, Turtwig
#4 Maylene: 0
#5 Crasher Wake: +2, Turtwig
#6 Byron: +1, Chimchar
#7 Candice: +2, Chimchar
#8: Volkner: +1, Chimchar
Elite Four:
#1 Aaron: +2, Chimchar
#2 Bertha: +1, Turtwig
#3 Flint: +1, Chimchar
#4 Lucian: +1, Turtwig
#5 Cynthia: +1, Chimchar
Final Tally:
Chimchar: 10
Turtwig: 6
And so, the Tiny Leaf pokemon gets left in the dust! Comments, retifications are appreciated. I'll have to update how Piplup does against the gym challenges as well..
Perhaps, but the gap seems to close rapidly once it hits around level 37, where it gets faster than slow and drops off at L51. The argument about Cranidos saving time through near-guaranteed OHKO's remains, though. It's one less round of attacks every battle, which adds up over time. Who cares if it takes you twice as long to level up if your attack at the same level as a starter is literally twice as high?
Not everyone has access to a Cranidos in game, though. As far as my current Platinum game is concerned, Cranidos doesn't exist; since my trainer ID is even, I can't get Skull Fossils in the Underground in the first place.
If this person is an avid pokemon fan, they may already have bought an Action Replay with which they can hack up an Arceus to breeze through the game with. See how ridiculous this gets if we don't define the context of this speed run? It should really be done only within the confines of the game already presented.
It's like buying a board game, such as Candy Land, and finding out you can't get the best experience from playing this game unless you play it while RIDING A ROLLERCOASTER. (Rollercoaster sold separately.)
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