You're right, I know for certain it does at least 70%.
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Community Create-A-Team: Heracross (OU)
- Thread starter Stagnant
- Start date
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You're right, I know for certain it does at least 70%.
This is exactly why it is ideal to run Magnezone, or possibly a lure like Babiri + Flamethrower/Fire Punch Tyranitar. The latter isn't preferable, due to sandstorm adding up, so Magnezone should definitely be considered.
I thought the calcs looked funny. My mistake.
Well, none the less it appears to me that Flame Orb Swords Dance is going to be the set choice. Albiet, Raticate and Ursarang can both run the set they either lack the proper movepool (Raticate) or lacks any sort of speed (Ursarang). I'm going to move this on to the next step unless there any objections.
Next up, is focus on the Overall Team. Meaning should this team be balanced, defensive, or offensive. Within those boundrys is Hyper-Offense, Bulky Offense, Balanced (Defensively), Balanced (Offensive), and Stall and Wall (Unlikely with SD FlameOrb Cross).
Keep in mind the set that has been chosen. Make sure you describe why you think what playstyle would be th best for the chosen set.
Well, none the less it appears to me that Flame Orb Swords Dance is going to be the set choice. Albiet, Raticate and Ursarang can both run the set they either lack the proper movepool (Raticate) or lacks any sort of speed (Ursarang). I'm going to move this on to the next step unless there any objections.
Next up, is focus on the Overall Team. Meaning should this team be balanced, defensive, or offensive. Within those boundrys is Hyper-Offense, Bulky Offense, Balanced (Defensively), Balanced (Offensive), and Stall and Wall (Unlikely with SD FlameOrb Cross).
Keep in mind the set that has been chosen. Make sure you describe why you think what playstyle would be th best for the chosen set.
There is something that I tested a while ago and found it to be pretty effective, passing an agility boost to Heracross. I used a Jolteon, so that the move that Heracross takes after the Baton Pass is an Earthquake, which he reisists nicely. Priority is still an issue obviously, so Magnezone will be perfect for the team to stop Scizor.
But a Heracross with +2 speed is a scary thing. If you think about it, an agility boost is equal to a Choice Scarf, and ScarfCross is arguably one of the best revenge killers out there. Once Scizor is out of the way a +2 Heracross can sweep an entire team.
I've personally tested this, and it really isn't hard to pull off. Bring in Jolteon to "revenge" a Gyarados or other water Pokemon and set up a sub. Agility/Sub as much as you want (maybe throw a Liechi Berry in the mix as well) then pass to Heracross, who easily eats the Earthquake and decimates your opponents team.
But a Heracross with +2 speed is a scary thing. If you think about it, an agility boost is equal to a Choice Scarf, and ScarfCross is arguably one of the best revenge killers out there. Once Scizor is out of the way a +2 Heracross can sweep an entire team.
I've personally tested this, and it really isn't hard to pull off. Bring in Jolteon to "revenge" a Gyarados or other water Pokemon and set up a sub. Agility/Sub as much as you want (maybe throw a Liechi Berry in the mix as well) then pass to Heracross, who easily eats the Earthquake and decimates your opponents team.
Reaver12, I think you are mistaken. A +2 boost is actually faster than a Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf. For instance, if Salamence has an Agility passed to it, then it's going to outrun a Choice Scarf Flygon.
An Agility technically doubles the Pokemon's speed stat, while a Choice Scarf gives it only a 1.5x boost.
An Agility technically doubles the Pokemon's speed stat, while a Choice Scarf gives it only a 1.5x boost.
All right, in terms of teams...
This might work on Hyperoffense, though because of the disappointing speed, we might be in trouble. Hyperoffense thrives on stuff like Gengar, Infernape, Starmie, and Jolteon. In contrast to these dudes, Heracross is slow, which pretty much makes it a bit of a sitting duck. Also, many Hyperoffensive sweepers are specially oriented, which means that we would want a specially oriented wallbreaker like LO-Gar, NP-Mixape, and Heatran, so we can avoid instances like a SkarmBliss stall. This Heracross is a physically oriented wallbreaker. But fortunately, the sheer force generated by Heracross' attacks make it a fit. Yet if we were to put this on a Hyperoffense team, it would be a complete deadweight against anything but heavy stall because of the speed, and because the playstyle concentrates on attacking rather than paralyzing.
On Bulky Offense, the biggest problem is the competition that we face for a team slot. Scizor is the better bug (although Hera is the superior wallbreaker) and Lucario is the superior sweeper. To get this set to work, we will need paralysis support. Therefore, we cannot use any of that CeleTranScizLatiLuke agglomeration that's everywhere, as the support that it grants Heracross is limited. Instead, we will need to get creative. Good paralyzers are Celebi and Jirachi, so we want one of them. In short, we should really consider this on something like Obi's "We are the Machampions" team. Heracross works a lot like Porygon-Z, and both work best when surrounded by paralysis. A bog-standard team gives Heracross little help. So don't just slap Heracross onto a team like that! Heracross needs support to shine.
Defensive Balance (aka, Stall-based Balance) is a no-no, because that plays a lot like stall, and this Heracross has a minimal defensive presence.
Heavy Stall has no place for this Heracross, and this Hera doesn't actually help the stall player's cause.
This might work on Hyperoffense, though because of the disappointing speed, we might be in trouble. Hyperoffense thrives on stuff like Gengar, Infernape, Starmie, and Jolteon. In contrast to these dudes, Heracross is slow, which pretty much makes it a bit of a sitting duck. Also, many Hyperoffensive sweepers are specially oriented, which means that we would want a specially oriented wallbreaker like LO-Gar, NP-Mixape, and Heatran, so we can avoid instances like a SkarmBliss stall. This Heracross is a physically oriented wallbreaker. But fortunately, the sheer force generated by Heracross' attacks make it a fit. Yet if we were to put this on a Hyperoffense team, it would be a complete deadweight against anything but heavy stall because of the speed, and because the playstyle concentrates on attacking rather than paralyzing.
On Bulky Offense, the biggest problem is the competition that we face for a team slot. Scizor is the better bug (although Hera is the superior wallbreaker) and Lucario is the superior sweeper. To get this set to work, we will need paralysis support. Therefore, we cannot use any of that CeleTranScizLatiLuke agglomeration that's everywhere, as the support that it grants Heracross is limited. Instead, we will need to get creative. Good paralyzers are Celebi and Jirachi, so we want one of them. In short, we should really consider this on something like Obi's "We are the Machampions" team. Heracross works a lot like Porygon-Z, and both work best when surrounded by paralysis. A bog-standard team gives Heracross little help. So don't just slap Heracross onto a team like that! Heracross needs support to shine.
Defensive Balance (aka, Stall-based Balance) is a no-no, because that plays a lot like stall, and this Heracross has a minimal defensive presence.
Heavy Stall has no place for this Heracross, and this Hera doesn't actually help the stall player's cause.
So we need:
- Rocks (to prevent a lot of switches)[/FONT]
- Rapid Spin blocker (so they don’t remove the rocks)
- Para support
- Healt
I was thinking
- Rocks - Gliscor(posibbly passing agility too)
- Blocker - Rotom (can para support too)
- Para - Zapdos/Celebi
- Healt - Jirachi (can para too)
- Rocks (to prevent a lot of switches)[/FONT]
- Rapid Spin blocker (so they don’t remove the rocks)
- Para support
- Healt
I was thinking
- Rocks - Gliscor(posibbly passing agility too)
- Blocker - Rotom (can para support too)
- Para - Zapdos/Celebi
- Healt - Jirachi (can para too)
Hmmm... when I think about it - maybe it's worth to try this set. It's nothing really original, but I guess it could work.
Heracross @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
~ Megahorn
~ Close Combat
~ Substitute
~ Toxic / Stone Edge
I think there are two ways to EV this Heracross - make it bulkier and invest enough speed to outspeed for example Jolly TTar. Or just invest Max Speed/Max Attack, which work better outside of Substitute. Leftovers would be better to use on bulkier spread. I would like to recommend Life Orb here, but with substitute Heracross won't live too long, that's for sure. Expert Belt may work, especially with Stone Edge, as those three moves hits many Pokemon for super-effective damage. And also Expert Belt has a nice bonus in bluffing choice items, which can help later and surprise opponent with substitute. Toxic is interesting option - with all those walls switching on Heracross, Toxic could cripple them and help other sweeper have their fun later. I think that Salac/Liechi Berry could also work, but I don't think it's the best option. Swarm is probably better ability here, but Guts should be fine also, as this set don't hate paralysis that much like choiced ones.
Heracross @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
~ Megahorn
~ Close Combat
~ Substitute
~ Toxic / Stone Edge
I think there are two ways to EV this Heracross - make it bulkier and invest enough speed to outspeed for example Jolly TTar. Or just invest Max Speed/Max Attack, which work better outside of Substitute. Leftovers would be better to use on bulkier spread. I would like to recommend Life Orb here, but with substitute Heracross won't live too long, that's for sure. Expert Belt may work, especially with Stone Edge, as those three moves hits many Pokemon for super-effective damage. And also Expert Belt has a nice bonus in bluffing choice items, which can help later and surprise opponent with substitute. Toxic is interesting option - with all those walls switching on Heracross, Toxic could cripple them and help other sweeper have their fun later. I think that Salac/Liechi Berry could also work, but I don't think it's the best option. Swarm is probably better ability here, but Guts should be fine also, as this set don't hate paralysis that much like choiced ones.
Well, Rocks are required on all teams. We don't need Spin blockers just for Rocks, though, because spending a teamslot just to protect SR is never worth it. If you have Spikes up, then yes.
Zapdos as para support is interesting, and could work. I'm not really in favor of an Agility pass, because this set is supposed to be a wallbreaker. Passing to Lucario would be better.
Defensive is automatically eliminated, as Hera with Flame Orb won't be walling anytime soon. That leaves balanced and offensive. Although balanced teams can be effective in some instances, they don't offer enough power, or not enough defense. With SD Hera being the main focus of the team, balanced doesn't seem to be the best style either. That leaves offensive.
Hyper Offensive isn't in fact a bad choice at first glance. You have a great sweeper in SD Hera waiting to come in the right moment and strike. However, you give up the chance to revenge kill threats with Magnezone, as Maggy is just outclassed by Jolt in a HypOff team.
Therefore, my vote goes to Bulky Offense, as it will allow the rest of the team to support it. You have all kinds of pokemon that would have great synergy with Heracross who are simply amazing on BulkOff teams. Just my thoughts, of course!
SR will be required for this of course, but what about Toxic spikes? They could help Hera deal with bulky waters and grounds that he has trouble taking out in one hit. Also, if it's forry, it will lure out fire attackers that could hurt Hera...
If we use Forry though, that would make the team more stallish, no? 2 bugs on one team doesn't seem too reasonable, as great of a spiker Forretress is.
I love this idea of creating a team with everyone, their is only one problem though. The community has all of these different ideas to use for each pokemon, and something is going to have to be used. Everyone is going to argue for their suggestion to be in, and people will be upset at the final result when they don't see that their suggestions didn't make it. There has to be a majority rule that states what will be used in the team, and that won't happen with people saying what they want without even considering all of the other options. Hope that helps with the Team Building.
Ok, for Heracross, we are looking at a basic team looking like this. A hyper offensive team's format may look like this.
The Lead
Infernape
Azelf
Aerodactyl
Suicide lead is a great idea, because it can give us the momentum we need to get Heracross going.
The Wall Breaker
SubPunch Gengar seems cool, but one cannot forget about Tyraniboah or MixMence. Starmie could also be a decent option here.
Counter Eliminator
Starmie can fit into this role well, because Starmie is able to take out Gliscor, SubTran, or anything that may pose a threat to our Heracross.
Heracross
We have decided to run the SD Flame Orb set. We may look at something like this
Heracross@ Flame Orb
Guts
Jolly
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Speed?
-Swords Dance
-Megahorn
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge/Night Slash
Paralysis Support
Zapdos may work here, but I think it might be interesting to use T-Wave Gyarados or Rotom.
Baton Pass Support
I am no expert in Baton Pass Chains, but Gliscor is probably our best option here. It could also set Taunt to stop Phazers from fucking Heracross up.
The Lead
Infernape
Azelf
Aerodactyl
Suicide lead is a great idea, because it can give us the momentum we need to get Heracross going.
The Wall Breaker
SubPunch Gengar seems cool, but one cannot forget about Tyraniboah or MixMence. Starmie could also be a decent option here.
Counter Eliminator
Starmie can fit into this role well, because Starmie is able to take out Gliscor, SubTran, or anything that may pose a threat to our Heracross.
Heracross
We have decided to run the SD Flame Orb set. We may look at something like this
Heracross@ Flame Orb
Guts
Jolly
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Speed?
-Swords Dance
-Megahorn
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge/Night Slash
Paralysis Support
Zapdos may work here, but I think it might be interesting to use T-Wave Gyarados or Rotom.
Baton Pass Support
I am no expert in Baton Pass Chains, but Gliscor is probably our best option here. It could also set Taunt to stop Phazers from fucking Heracross up.
Yeah I think Gliscor baton passing agility is a great idea. I also think we should run a scarfed magnezone to kill both lucario and scizor as those are huge problems for the agility passing.
Do we need a wallbreaker? After one Swords Dance, Heracross OHKO's Skarmory and Forretress anyways, and unlike with Lucario, Hippowdon cannot deal too much damage with Earthquake, which Heracross resists. Therefore, we should make sure we get a lure for Gliscor. I like the idea of Tyranitar here, but Sandstorm is pretty annoying, so we need someone else. SpecsLuke, maybe?
We don't really need Baton Pass support, as Lucario does better as a recipient, with his mixed capabilities and better typing (and more synergy with Gliscor, taking the Ice attacks aimed at it). What our team should aim to do is maximize the potential of Heracross, which is probably best served by adding more paralysis support.
I like the outline, witness. You mention T-wave Gyrados... I was thinking about suggesting that one myself. An impish one would protect Hera from ES and BP, no?
Something like...
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Impish: 212 hp, 180 def, 118 atk
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Thunder Wave
Taunt
I'm not very happy using suicide leads, but I wouldn't mind if others agree that we need it (As long as it's not Aerodactle, ugh)
As for a baton passer... I dunno. Special Luke might be a cool idea as a lure... as I recall didn't Obi or someone use a luke that way to set up a Scizor sweep?
Something like...
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Impish: 212 hp, 180 def, 118 atk
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Thunder Wave
Taunt
I'm not very happy using suicide leads, but I wouldn't mind if others agree that we need it (As long as it's not Aerodactle, ugh)
As for a baton passer... I dunno. Special Luke might be a cool idea as a lure... as I recall didn't Obi or someone use a luke that way to set up a Scizor sweep?
Bolded everything I support. Rotom>Gyara for the ability to also spinblock, as Hera enjoys SR support. Instead of a suicide lead, I think a bulkier lead such as Heatran or Metagross would be better. Not only do you almost always get rocks down, you have a pokemon that come back in midgame and explode on a Hera counter. Metagross would probably be the better pick, as it gives the team priority.
Starmie as a wallbreaker would work well, as you can give it Rapid Spin as well to not have to worry about spikes. LO also allows it to 2hko all the spinblockers with Surf. Also fills the counter eliminator well. Rotom for Para support is nice, as with the Restalk set, you have a way to take status as well. Baton Pass really isn't needed for a team like this, as Hera isn't the best recipient of it. Wish support would be really nice to have however, although I don't know what would fill that spot.
Great ideas guys!
You're thinking of Legacy Raider, in his Team Siren Song. SpecsLuke as a lure for Hippo and Glisc is interesting, and worth consideration, as we have the pure power to break through stall anyways with Heracross.
I don't like that Gyarados. Zapdos has better typing, and works better as a tank with instant recovery.
well i think we know what teammate #1 is going to be:
Magnezone@Choice Scarf
Magnet Pull
20 Atk/236 Spe/252 SpA
Naive Nature
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power [Ice]
Thunder Wave/Signal Beam
Explosion
scarfzone: designed to switch into scizor bullet punches and lucario extremespeeds. thunderbolt does minimum 74% with average 80% to lucario. the speed is to outrun starmie that sit at 352, and the rest is to power up explosion. Hidden power ice is for predicted gliscor switchins, HP fire is not used since you are switching into scizors bullet punch, not needing an OHKO, and STABd thunderbolt does a little more than HPfire anyways. Thunder wave is for the paralysis which we know we need, or signal beam hits latias and idk, seems redundant next to heracrosss megahorn
Magnezone@Choice Scarf
Magnet Pull
20 Atk/236 Spe/252 SpA
Naive Nature
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power [Ice]
Thunder Wave/Signal Beam
Explosion
scarfzone: designed to switch into scizor bullet punches and lucario extremespeeds. thunderbolt does minimum 74% with average 80% to lucario. the speed is to outrun starmie that sit at 352, and the rest is to power up explosion. Hidden power ice is for predicted gliscor switchins, HP fire is not used since you are switching into scizors bullet punch, not needing an OHKO, and STABd thunderbolt does a little more than HPfire anyways. Thunder wave is for the paralysis which we know we need, or signal beam hits latias and idk, seems redundant next to heracrosss megahorn
I completely agree that Scarfzone is necessary. xD With the set listed you take care of Hera's two biggest revengers, while also spreading around para with Thunder Wave. Most teams don't have an electric immune, so this will be nice for the para support that Hera really appreciates.
It's good to have just in general, as you have never know when something may get out of hand and you just need to explode to take out the poke. Even if the team maybe predominantly physical, Booms are always nice to have.
well in terms of explosion...
180 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (500 Base Power): 179 - 211 (44.31% - 52.23%)
explosion vs max/max suicune
359 Atk vs 399 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 186 - 218 (46.04% - 53.96%)
thunderbolt vs a +1 suicune
180 Atk vs 296 Def & 354 HP (500 Base Power): 218 - 257 (61.58% - 72.60%)
explosion vs gliscor, its ok but theres still the 20% chance it misses in sand... save up your magnezone
i was referring to this as the main reason to use explosion
180 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (500 Base Power): 299 - 352 (89.79% - 105.71%)
explosion vs 128/0 latias, against min/min at best it survives with 2 hp
yea you see my point... explosion does do a hefty 80% to blissey but seriously heracross can take her
more nice calcs:
tbolt vs 0/0 gengar
359 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (95 Base Power): 198 - 234 (75.86% - 89.66%)
OHKO after 2 SRs
tbolt vs 248/224 zapdos
359 Atk vs 299 Def & 383 HP (95 Base Power): 123 - 145 (32.11% - 37.86%)
tbolt vs 248/0 zapdos
359 Atk vs 216 Def & 383 HP (95 Base Power): 169 - 201 (44.13% - 52.48%)
2HKO after SR
180 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (500 Base Power): 179 - 211 (44.31% - 52.23%)
explosion vs max/max suicune
359 Atk vs 399 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 186 - 218 (46.04% - 53.96%)
thunderbolt vs a +1 suicune
180 Atk vs 296 Def & 354 HP (500 Base Power): 218 - 257 (61.58% - 72.60%)
explosion vs gliscor, its ok but theres still the 20% chance it misses in sand... save up your magnezone
i was referring to this as the main reason to use explosion
180 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (500 Base Power): 299 - 352 (89.79% - 105.71%)
explosion vs 128/0 latias, against min/min at best it survives with 2 hp
yea you see my point... explosion does do a hefty 80% to blissey but seriously heracross can take her
more nice calcs:
tbolt vs 0/0 gengar
359 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (95 Base Power): 198 - 234 (75.86% - 89.66%)
OHKO after 2 SRs
tbolt vs 248/224 zapdos
359 Atk vs 299 Def & 383 HP (95 Base Power): 123 - 145 (32.11% - 37.86%)
tbolt vs 248/0 zapdos
359 Atk vs 216 Def & 383 HP (95 Base Power): 169 - 201 (44.13% - 52.48%)
2HKO after SR
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