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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Garchomp Thoughts - Top three OU material for sure, if not top one. However, I don't find it it particularly overpowering. The real trouble with it is prediction - once you know what set it has, it isn't that hard to take down, because it suffers from Four Moveslot Syndrome. Choice Variants are basically surefire stopped by something like Bronzong or Skarmory, haven't really had a problem with them, although they do make beasty late game sweepers. Sub sets I find don't really work that well until very late game. If your check has a decent amount of health and you can switch in on the sub, Garchomp doesn't really have much choice to switch out. Even if it does attack your check, at this point it won't be SD'd, so it isn't much trouble, especially considering as Garchomp gave up 1/4 HP to do so. Both the Scarf and Sub variants I find to be very definite late game beats - in a way, they remind me of Curselax in GSC, although they function practically in very different ways.
I find the real killer to be the Swords Dance set. The real trouble is the two varieties of Berry Chomp can carry. Yache variants get taken down by Latias with a fair amount of ease, and I've seen a few surprise ScarfMence take down my Garchomp (even if they don't take it down, it's damn hard to switch something in to a ScarfMence Draco Meteor without said something taking a hard hit), and Haban variants to whichever Pokemon you have that is fast and possesses an Ice-type move. However, if you guess incorrectly, you'll often lose around 2 more Pokemon than you would if you guessed correctly, which is certainly a match definer.
So far, my team has consisted of a bunch of bulky Pokemon aided by Toxic Spikes. ScarfSade gets up Toxic Spikes beautifully, and can also give some amazing Sleep Support later on if need be (I've been using it on opposing Steel types). Toxic Spikes is death to Swords Dance Garchomp, as even a Haban won't save a Garchomp once its health has been down a bit. Each match, I'd say I lose between 0-2 Pokemon to Garchomp, but I'm finding it manageable, as quite a few of those were due to careless mistakes. My own Garchomp gets around one kill per match fairly consistently.
Will edit with thoughts on the other two later. Suffice to say, I consider all three to be OU material, but will expand on that.
EDIT: Wow, someone else is using ScarfSade? I thought it was just me.
I find the real killer to be the Swords Dance set. The real trouble is the two varieties of Berry Chomp can carry. Yache variants get taken down by Latias with a fair amount of ease, and I've seen a few surprise ScarfMence take down my Garchomp (even if they don't take it down, it's damn hard to switch something in to a ScarfMence Draco Meteor without said something taking a hard hit), and Haban variants to whichever Pokemon you have that is fast and possesses an Ice-type move. However, if you guess incorrectly, you'll often lose around 2 more Pokemon than you would if you guessed correctly, which is certainly a match definer.
So far, my team has consisted of a bunch of bulky Pokemon aided by Toxic Spikes. ScarfSade gets up Toxic Spikes beautifully, and can also give some amazing Sleep Support later on if need be (I've been using it on opposing Steel types). Toxic Spikes is death to Swords Dance Garchomp, as even a Haban won't save a Garchomp once its health has been down a bit. Each match, I'd say I lose between 0-2 Pokemon to Garchomp, but I'm finding it manageable, as quite a few of those were due to careless mistakes. My own Garchomp gets around one kill per match fairly consistently.
Will edit with thoughts on the other two later. Suffice to say, I consider all three to be OU material, but will expand on that.
EDIT: Wow, someone else is using ScarfSade? I thought it was just me.
Garchomp...Hmmmmm if it comes over to OU then it wouldn't be just one of the top threats, it would be THE top threat in my opinion. As for the sets, I find both SDHaban and SDYache the most fearsome. I (including myself) usually always see a these following pokemons on most of the suspect teams: garchomp (duh right), latias (screw the yache), bulky water (screw the haban and god i hate and love vaporeon lol just wanted to say that), and of course a steel type (metagross, scizor, blah blah).
Oh and I don't see skarm or bronzong that great against garchomp as they an't...relaly do anything to it (to scarf even well...bronzong is freaking annoying though but skarm can only whirwind it away).
Manaphy: is awesome and i think it's really underrated imo
Oh and I don't see skarm or bronzong that great against garchomp as they an't...relaly do anything to it (to scarf even well...bronzong is freaking annoying though but skarm can only whirwind it away).
Manaphy: is awesome and i think it's really underrated imo
I'm not going to comment on the "OU material" sentence, but seriously, if there's a problem that Garchomp doesn't have is the Moveslot Syndrome. With a set of swords dance, dragon claw\outrage, earthquake and fire fang Garchomp can hit every Pokemon in the game for, at least, neutral damage, not to mention that the only two Pokemon that resist its STAB combo are Skarmory and Bronzong, and both of them are hit for SE damage by fire fang.
Also, good luck if you have to resort to prediction to beat Chomp, I'd really like to hear Stathakis' opinion on the matter.
I agree with the majority of your points. I am Garchomp is ridiculously hard to switch in against, because a simple mispredict allows Garchomp to do insane amounts of damage behind its considerable Attack stat and dual STAB.
Swords Dance Garchomp is certainly dangerous, as if you do predict correctly to gain a more favourable matchup, Garchomp often has enough bulk to survive a hit and KO your switch in anyway. I just wanted to highlight your post because you said about the Haban / Yache Berry guessing game. I completely agree with you, common "checks" to Garchomp are often being taken down first due to the player being unfortunate. 20.5% of Garchomp held Haban Berry in October, and 12.9% held Yache Berry (and for reference, 12.3% ran Salac Berry). Checks such as Draco Meteor Latias or Ice Shard Mamoswine are going to have a much harder time when they hit a Berry, especially as both are quite common on the Swords Dancer, so it becomes a bit of a guessing game. I can't help but feel this is the exact reason people are running multiple checks to Garchomp. Add in Salac Berry and suddenly you might need another check... Suddenly you have a team with tons of Garchomp checks, and when you see Garchomp you have to use one hoping you are lucking against Garchomp's held item.
As a side note, I've had my worst day on the ladder so far. Not good.
Yeah, I realise that was a stupid thing to say now, I hadn't checked my post. What I meant to say was One Itemslot Syndrome. What I mean is, he can't run all his sets at once, and that is thing that, in my view, prevents him from being Uber. 99% of the time the reason a Pokemon can't run all of its sets is due to moveslot limitations, so I said 4MS out of habit, but with Garchomp I guess it is 1IS.
I completely agree with you on this. While it may be a guessing game at first, obviously, Garchomp cannot hold every single viable item listed. I also felt that when Garchomp was first made Uber a number of the arguments seemed to say that Garchomp could be holding Yache and Life Orb at the same time. By this I mean that someone would say "with Life Orb Garchomp can do X amount of damage and then live an Ice Shard thanks to Yache Berry". I know this sounds stupid, but I actually saw this and saw people agreeing.
Roserade has a pretty high SpA, a STAB that hits Garchomp neutral, and can learn a Draco Meteor-esque move in said typing. It's just a generic "faster than Garchomp" check, like Gengar.
I used Manaphy only three times in Stage 3-1 and Latias not a whole lot more, yet still got voting rights. As long as you play an acceptable number of games, you'll get the SEXP necessary to vote whether or not you use every suspect yourself.
What? It's an incredibly superior CroCune. The only disadvantage is a slight loss in bulk but Rain Dance over Suicune's Sleep Talk gives it a much more formidable recovery and lets it hit way harder.
Specs Latias problem solved looooooooooooooool
Skarmory doesn't do much directly to Garchomp but its Spikes can wear Garchomp down as quickly as SR does to its good friend, Salamence. It barely takes 50% from an SD Fire Fang or standard Fire Blast (min-SpA, no item boost), which it can probably Roost off later, and it can pseudohaze to stuff SubChomp and rack up Spikes damage on it. It's kinda like how Skarmory dealt with Curselax in GSC - it walled Snorlax until you could do something to actually kill it in late-game. Even min-Atk Skarmory deals 34% damage to min/min Garchomp with Brave Bird, though, so it actually deals acceptable damage if it has to attack directly for some reason.
Bronzong can do pretty high damage with its Gyro Ball, which gets the max 150 BP against Garchomp with the proper spread. It can also use Reflect and/or trade with Explosion if necessary. It doesn't do anything special but neither does Garchomp back to it.
I used Manaphy only three times in Stage 3-1 and Latias not a whole lot more, yet still got voting rights. As long as you play an acceptable number of games, you'll get the SEXP necessary to vote whether or not you use every suspect yourself.
What? It's an incredibly superior CroCune. The only disadvantage is a slight loss in bulk but Rain Dance over Suicune's Sleep Talk gives it a much more formidable recovery and lets it hit way harder.
Specs Latias problem solved looooooooooooooool
Skarmory doesn't do much directly to Garchomp but its Spikes can wear Garchomp down as quickly as SR does to its good friend, Salamence. It barely takes 50% from an SD Fire Fang or standard Fire Blast (min-SpA, no item boost), which it can probably Roost off later, and it can pseudohaze to stuff SubChomp and rack up Spikes damage on it. It's kinda like how Skarmory dealt with Curselax in GSC - it walled Snorlax until you could do something to actually kill it in late-game. Even min-Atk Skarmory deals 34% damage to min/min Garchomp with Brave Bird, though, so it actually deals acceptable damage if it has to attack directly for some reason.
Bronzong can do pretty high damage with its Gyro Ball, which gets the max 150 BP against Garchomp with the proper spread. It can also use Reflect and/or trade with Explosion if necessary. It doesn't do anything special but neither does Garchomp back to it.
If garchomp is with fire fang or fire blast it will do more than "anything special" to bronzong. of course it's a different story for scarfchomp but not sdchomp.
besides it is very dangerous to pull out sdgarchomp before you get rid of its checks anyways. as for spikes, i still don't see this as viable as sr in the ou environment. and even if i were to ues spikes, it would be quite limiting (choices, results)
besides it is very dangerous to pull out sdgarchomp before you get rid of its checks anyways. as for spikes, i still don't see this as viable as sr in the ou environment. and even if i were to ues spikes, it would be quite limiting (choices, results)
Neutral, 252spA Leaf Storm from Roserade: 349 Atk vs 206 Def & 358 HP (140 Base Power): 255 - 301 (71.23% - 84.08%)
Positive, 252spA Leaf Storm from Roserade: 383 Atk vs 206 Def & 358 HP (140 Base Power): 280 - 330 (78.21% - 92.18%)
It definitely won't OHKO when Garchomp is at perfect health but it's often enough to revenge kill it. But yes 1v1 it wouldn't be able to OHKO. It's definitely a possibility to explore though.
Positive, 252spA Leaf Storm from Roserade: 383 Atk vs 206 Def & 358 HP (140 Base Power): 280 - 330 (78.21% - 92.18%)
It definitely won't OHKO when Garchomp is at perfect health but it's often enough to revenge kill it. But yes 1v1 it wouldn't be able to OHKO. It's definitely a possibility to explore though.
Shrang, we were talking Scarf Roserade. Roserade with a Choice Scarf is, indeed, faster than Garchomp... unless it's wearing its own.
I thought Garchomp was so unstoppable that it could just switch into whatever the hell it wants, dodge everything with Sand Veil, mitigate every super-effective attack with the correct resist berry and sweep every single time?
I thought Garchomp was so unstoppable that it could just switch into whatever the hell it wants, dodge everything with Sand Veil, mitigate every super-effective attack with the correct resist berry and sweep every single time?
Even Uber can´t run all sets at once, does that make them less uber?
Kyogre can´t be specs, Cm, scarf at once, therefore it is possible to play around it with Quagsire and Cm Blissey. Maybe it should be the next suspect.
Well, once again, the moveset problem seems non-exsistent to me. Assuming that you're using it as a sweeper (rather than as a revenge killer) the best set it can run, without being walled by levitating steel types is: SD\fire fang\dragon claw\EQ. If anything, the problem may be the choice between yache and haban berry.
Speaking of which, I'm pretty surprised that haban is used more than yache (according to the most recent server stats). I've always found haban being really situational, not to mention that a life orb'd draco meteor from Latias can OHKO Chomp through the haban berry. On the other hand, yache berry allows Chomp to comfortably beat Swampert, Suicune, Zapdos, Starmie, random ice sharders like Mamoswine, ice fang Gyarados and so on. I've found haban berry really useful just to beat random opposing scarf-Chomp. Yeah, I've found that, ironically, Chomp's best revenge killer is a(n) (opposing) Garchomp itself; especially since, unlike Latias, it's extremely hard to trap and kill.
Sadly no, the standard sassy Bronzong takes:
718 Atk vs 288 Def & 338 HP (65 Base Power): 234 - 276 (69.23% - 81.66%)
by a +2 fire fang, and even if Zong is impish\relaxed and runs max Def, it takes:
718 Atk vs 364 Def & 338 HP (65 Base Power): 184 - 218 (54.44% - 64.50%)
which is a 2hko in both the cases. Yes, Zong can explode, but it can explode on (and KO) a large number of Ubers as well.
So... awkward silence. This vote must be coming up soon. Anybody have any ideas as to when?
This test will last approximately one month;
I'm guessing around the time of November 12th!
I'm noticing a huge pattern and I'd like all of you to keep these points in mind when discussing.
- Centralizing ("over" or not) isn't necessarily a bad thing. Remember that the suspect test is a method that we use to "draw the line" so to speak, of what is uber and not between borderline cases.
When attempting to use overcentralizing as an argument, apply it to one of the characteristics --- if something is overcentralizing, then you can bet that it's breaking one of the characteristics one way or another. - Speaking of centralization, note that everything centralizes - just saying that the metagame changes means absolutely nothing in this debate at hand.
- Even actual ubers can be "countered" or "dealt with". There are also non ubers who are difficult to counter. This does not mean that the Pokemon is actually uber. Secondly, the thing you should be going with this suspect test is to see if you can find more creative ways of dealing with suspects (whether it be toxic spikes or exploding on it with bronzong or not). The fact that Garchomp 2hkos everything does not imply it is uber, sorry. Explain why this matters in terms of gameplay.
This sentence is quite confusing, because the ability to counter a pokemon is the most common argument to draw a line between ubers and ous.
Also there is a huge difference between difficult to counter and can 2hko everything in the current metagame.
The most common argument to draw the line between OU and Uber should be using the Uber Characteristics, not "counterability." In this sense, 2HKO'ing every pokemon in the game could be used as evidence that the pokemon fulfills the Offensive Characteristic.
There's nothing confusing about that statement. Simply put, the ability to "counter" a pokémon (by current definition) doesn't mean jack shit. Even with Garchomp gone, there are "uncounterable" pokémon still in OU, especially under the asinine, yet all-too-common, assumption that it carries everything in its movepool, uses all its viable items at the same time, and predicts the opponent flawlessly. Of course, even without that assumption, the only refutation for Salamence being as good as Garchomp I continue to hear goes something like, "it counters itself with residual damage olol"
You don't need to counter a pokémon to beat it. Sure, I can hard counter Gyarados with HP Electric Vaporeon. I need Special Defensive Tyranitar to deal with Latias. I need Gyarados or Rotom-A for Scizor. I need Gliscor to tentatively counter Lucario. (Can't switch into Ice Punch!) Nobody can possibly "counter" all possible threats, there's simply too many of them with too few counters shared among them. (And if one pokémon WAS able to counter every single of them, it'd probably be Uber under the Defensive Characteristic.) No, you get by on redundant "checks" with proper team-building, or you play very heavy offense (including most TR and weather teams) and race the opponent to see who can wipe whom out first.
If you can 2HKO everything, then theoretically everything can die on the switch-in plus the second hit. Maybe a faster pokémon can take one hit and OHKO in return, making it a "counter" by strict definition (though very limited, as it can only switch in one time), but there's not much difference between those two traits for the most part.
Has anyone else noticed the decline in use of Dual Screen azelf on the suspect ladder. I just fought one and it reminded me how i had not seen one in ages. This lack of dual screens makes me want to replace brick break on my t tar for rest but that leaves me open to HO despite of Scizor and Scarf rotom but yeah i dunno, I just don't think BB is worth it any more with the lack of dual screens.
Kind of a random post, but my buddy Dormin a while back in the Garchomp days used Specs Pokemon that were faster than chomp to kill it. A Specs Leafstorm from Sceptile is just an outright OHKO on Chomp... in addition to hitting a ton of other things as hard as a truck. and we all know Choice Scarf Chomp cant get throw steels... maybe worth an idea (sorry to reveal your team Dorm :))