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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Well, a Swords Dance is *2, and a Choice Band is *1.5, so 1.5*2 is 3.
But I did forget about Macho Brace, so I guess you win that one. Still, I'd rather use Explosion, since Bronzong will be crippled after such an exchange anyways.
Because we are assuming that it sets up the SD on the switch then attacking while it gets tricked.
I actually used Bronzong as my chomp check in DP, basically all you could really do is predict chomp staying in and explode, yes there was a chance they could switch out but that was just another risk you had to take, and yes I acknowledge that's a horrible check, (not even a check really, simply a course of action) but that's all you could really do then in regards to using bronzong, I suppose now you could trick iron ball/macho brace/choice items to cripple chomp but in essence it's really the same as exploding, it's just less risky...
Priority Fucks chomp over, CB mamo, Weavile and Scizor to an extent.Gyarados can also counter chomp because of intimidate and it's typing. I think chomp belongs in OU
haunter
Banned deucer.
None of the Pokemon you mentioned are guaranteed to revenge Chomp. Mamo and Weavile lose to yache Chomp and even the bulkyest Gyarados (impish 252 HP \ 252 Def) is 2hko'd by a +1 dragon claw after SR damage, also note that Gyara can do little damage in return as ice fang is not even a sure ohko (even without factoring in the yache berry).
And the above poster is right about Scizor's BP as a CB bullet punch only manages around 50% to a 4 HP\ min Def Garchomp. And anyway, if that's the concern, Chomp just needs a few defence EVs to avoid the 2hko from it, while always ohkoing Scizor in return with either fire fang or a +2 EQ.
Yeah but the point was that it's not a counter but a check.
He was talking about how Bronzong and Skarmory are Garchomp counters and really...they can't be.
bronzong can be 2hko'd
gyro and trick aren't really going to do much
explosion = kill zong as well
i still wouldn't call him a counter
You can't talk about Garchomp counters without establishing the moveset beforehand
Because all that will happen is that everyone's Garchomp will have all of:
Fire Fang
Fire Blast
Dragon Claw
Outrage
Earthquake
Substitute
Swords Dance
And carrying all of:
Yache Berry
Haban Berry
Choice Band
Choice Scarf
Which clearly is ridiculous since Pokemon are limited to 4 moves and 1 item.
Pointing out that Garchomp could screw Skarmory with Fire Blast is like saying Infernape could use Earthquake against that Tentacruel.
It is entirely irrelevant unless the particular Infernape is carrying that move and what will it give up?
If it gives up Grass Knot Swampert switches in and threatens immediately.
Garchomp is not unique in having moveset dependent counters.
Any Pokemon with even a small amount of versatility will.
Once again, Salamence is far worse in this regard.
Of course, other people have pointed this out many times but some continue with the dishonest tactic of merging all Garchomp movesets into one then saying there is no counter for all of them.
Duh...find a single counter for every Empoleon set!
Garchomp's SubDance set is pretty much hard countered by Skarmory because it wastes 1/4 of it's HP only to be phased out and possibly suffer residual damage on the way back in while merely annoying Skarm with an unboosted and possibly resisted attack.
Choiced sets are best handled by using prediction and forcing switches.
Intimidate helps against both Band and Scarf and two really dangerous ground immunes have that trait one of which can easily survive +0 or -1 Outrage if it guesses wrong.
Swords Dance + 3 attacks is hard to counter for the same reason DD Salamence is hard to counter: Dragon/Ground/Fire has excellent coverage.
However, it is important to put this in perspective:
An SD Garchomp is slower than DD Salamence and they both hit about as hard though the former is in the reach of more revenge killers.
Skarmory actually has a better chance to end a Chomp sweep because all Garchomp's Fire moves are 2HKOs at best whereas Salamence dispatches it with Fire Blast in one hit.
As a result, Skarmory is a relatively safe initial switchin for all Garchomp sets though the same cannot be said for Salamence.
So the bottom line is both of these Dragons' setup sweeper sets have to be handled in about the same way: prediction and revenge/priority killing.
The prediction risk is about the same for both with Garchomp trading some extra bulk for being vulnerable to more revenge killers.
But when you say Garchomp has no counters you have to be very clear what sets you are talking about and explain how other sweepers
that can run sets which hit everything for at least strong neutral damage are handled, assuming (correctly) they're not all Uber/BL by that measure.
Because all that will happen is that everyone's Garchomp will have all of:
Fire Fang
Fire Blast
Dragon Claw
Outrage
Earthquake
Substitute
Swords Dance
And carrying all of:
Yache Berry
Haban Berry
Choice Band
Choice Scarf
Which clearly is ridiculous since Pokemon are limited to 4 moves and 1 item.
Pointing out that Garchomp could screw Skarmory with Fire Blast is like saying Infernape could use Earthquake against that Tentacruel.
It is entirely irrelevant unless the particular Infernape is carrying that move and what will it give up?
If it gives up Grass Knot Swampert switches in and threatens immediately.
Garchomp is not unique in having moveset dependent counters.
Any Pokemon with even a small amount of versatility will.
Once again, Salamence is far worse in this regard.
Of course, other people have pointed this out many times but some continue with the dishonest tactic of merging all Garchomp movesets into one then saying there is no counter for all of them.
Duh...find a single counter for every Empoleon set!
Garchomp's SubDance set is pretty much hard countered by Skarmory because it wastes 1/4 of it's HP only to be phased out and possibly suffer residual damage on the way back in while merely annoying Skarm with an unboosted and possibly resisted attack.
Choiced sets are best handled by using prediction and forcing switches.
Intimidate helps against both Band and Scarf and two really dangerous ground immunes have that trait one of which can easily survive +0 or -1 Outrage if it guesses wrong.
Swords Dance + 3 attacks is hard to counter for the same reason DD Salamence is hard to counter: Dragon/Ground/Fire has excellent coverage.
However, it is important to put this in perspective:
An SD Garchomp is slower than DD Salamence and they both hit about as hard though the former is in the reach of more revenge killers.
Skarmory actually has a better chance to end a Chomp sweep because all Garchomp's Fire moves are 2HKOs at best whereas Salamence dispatches it with Fire Blast in one hit.
As a result, Skarmory is a relatively safe initial switchin for all Garchomp sets though the same cannot be said for Salamence.
So the bottom line is both of these Dragons' setup sweeper sets have to be handled in about the same way: prediction and revenge/priority killing.
The prediction risk is about the same for both with Garchomp trading some extra bulk for being vulnerable to more revenge killers.
But when you say Garchomp has no counters you have to be very clear what sets you are talking about and explain how other sweepers
that can run sets which hit everything for at least strong neutral damage are handled, assuming (correctly) they're not all Uber/BL by that measure.
Why did everyone neglect my earlier post? Do I need to ask someone personally for an answer?
we are talking about the sdchomp and were NOT incorporating all moves and items.
The numbers have not been revealed by either Jumpman, Aeolus, or Doug, so no one besides them can answer your questions. Like MrE said, don't worry about that, just worry about getting practice using and facing the suspects.
Heh, nearly every time time someone mentions Garchomp, it's always at +2, and for some reason is carrying both a Yache and Haban Berry. Afaik, Garchomp doesn't have some sort of power that makes him magically come in at +2. Garchomp doesn't get this +2 for free either. Not only that, but the difference between using Yache and Haban is huge. Without Yache, Garchomp is OHKO'd by many pokemon using Ice Beam, pokemon that used to be the sacrifical pig, (e.g. Starmie) Garchomp damaged in DP/Stage 2 when it got up the SD. Haban helps with the Latias around (and even then it's OHKO'd by Draco Meteor on Specs and LO Latias), and other ScarfChomp.
Concerning Scizor's Bullet Punch, it 2HKO's Garchomp after SR (if it's running the standard 6HP/252Atk/252Spd which everyone runs), which people always seem to forget when talking about Garchomp, yet is the main point when talking about Salamence and other SR-weak friends.
Also look at this statistic from October:
And finally, something else:
Concerning Scizor's Bullet Punch, it 2HKO's Garchomp after SR (if it's running the standard 6HP/252Atk/252Spd which everyone runs), which people always seem to forget when talking about Garchomp, yet is the main point when talking about Salamence and other SR-weak friends.
Also look at this statistic from October:
So to all those people who claim that Garchomp only needs a few Defense EV's to survive 2 Bullet Punches from Scizor, what's happening guys? Seems that everybody wants to pack as much power as possible.
And finally, something else:
Yache Berry, the item that made people believe Garchomp was uber in DP and Stage 2 is only used on 12.9% of all Garchomps. Swords Dance contributed but I remember when every Garchomp thread was full of "Fuck Yache Berry", "Oh man, if they banned Yache Berry on Chomp it would be OU" and "Yache Berry is only used on Chomp so who cares if YB gets banned".
Good to nail that down.
So now, it seems to me that the other OU Dragon that runs a setup and sweep set has to be handled in similar asymmetric means to Garchomp.
I can't think of any one Pokemon you can switch into DD Salamence and blithely think it's a 100% counter despite the fact that you know the moveset.
Most bulky Pokemon will be 2HKOed buy some combination of attacks and fast frail Pokemon (which BTW *must* be scarfed to outrun +1 Mence) cannot switch in except on a predicted immunity.
This is not much different from SDChomp except that he has viable non-scarfed revenge killers!
Now, I'm not tying Garchomp's fate to Salamence's as a matter of argument, just saying that this search for a 100% counter is not as vigorously pursued for DD Mence.
So it seems inconsistent that this is insisted on for Garchomp despite the fact that it is vulnerable to similar strategies as those used to contain DD Mence and has a lower speed to boot.
Likewise, in UU, SubCM Mismagius can be very difficult to counter except by asymmetric means (trick, haze, encore, etc) since if it gets multiple boosts not much can absorb the attacks.
Stallrein is usually beaten asymmetrically as well by Tricking/Taunting or Phazing it since very few things can power through the Substitute/Protect cycle especially since it can Roar you if you try to set up.
So I consider the argument against SDChomp based on lack of a 100% counter - defined specifically as a Pokemon that can switch in, take a hit and kill it - to be a red herring in its case.
This was never a ticket to the banlist.
You do realise you started out with one assertion about assumptions and then immediately made said assumption right?
Also part of what people are trying to say by listing various scenarios (and no, I don't see people claiming all that crap on Chomp, I mostly see people working off SD/DClaw/FFang/EQ + either Yache or Haban) is that if you make even one wrong decision, that pokemon that you were counting on to possibly counter/revenge Chomp just kicked the bucket and now you're left with even less options for possibly stopping Chomp's rampage.
the top users in ranking will have voting rights. it doesn't make as much sense to have a hard and fast number to strive to when nobody has any idea how much experience people can get with the suspects, and especially because the rating aspect is very secondary to the final SEXP number
No I don't see what you're saying.
The reference to Infernape is an example of the same fallacy (see the word 'like') as that often perpetrated in discussing Garchomp.
(I'm not saying everybody does it every time but it happens enough for me to request that the moveset in question be made clear)
Point was that Infernape does not get a free lunch in using Earthquake because it does have only 4 moveslots.
You can't add a move and pretend it still has the others (such as Grass Knot).
The danger of SD Chomp is no different from the Danger of DD Mence, let something die and revenge kill/phaze or guess right and come in on an immunity/resist.
You're always going to have this problem when something fast can carry STAB Dragon attacks and be able to hit Steels super effectively.
There is going to be a lot of bawling if Nintendo ever invents a good Dragon/Fire Pokemon. :P
Very untrue, and I know this first hand as even with as little as 16 attack evs, avalanche will KO yachechomp 92% of the time with sr if it dclaws/outrages (outrage can't ko either). Also note that a fair amount of stall gyaras did run avalanche to check chomp in DP.. and yes before you mention it, I'm aware chomp can switch out and then rack up sr damage for the next time around however so can the person using gyarados and in that time frame from when chomp switches out of gyara to the point chomp comes back in the rocks can be spun, gyara can be healthy, etc it really depends on the person using the gyarados.
If you are saying that +1 Adamant 225atk EV'd Gyarados can OHKO YacheChomp (standard 4HP/0Def EV'd) then...no. The following the the actual calculations and it just cannot 1hKO through the yache.
574 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (65 Base Power): 238 - 280 (66.48% - 78.21%)
haunter
Banned deucer.
Please run some damage calcs before calling me out:
319 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (68.16% - 80.45%)
this is an adamant Gyarados with 16 Atk EVs against 4 HP \ min Def yache Garchomp.You still lose as you're slower than Chomp. Impish Gyara does obviously less damage.
I hadn't thought of avalanche, but the point stands: even defensive Gyara loses to yache Chomp. Not to mention that if your opponent knows that you pack avalanche (because for some reason you've revealed it before) then they can just set up a second SD... you get the point.
Also, concerning the bullet punch issue: I just said that if surviving 2 Scizor's BP was the concern, Chomp just had to run some defence EVs, not that it's worth it. In fact I think that maxing out Atk and Spe is the better choice on Comp, as it already handles Scizor well enough.
He said Avalanche, for god's sake. Learn to read the bloody post first.
In any case:
319 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (68.16% - 80.45%)
Which is a 16 Atk Gyarados against standard YacheChomp. Throw away the Yache and Chomp is dead, run Life Orb and Chomp is dead, run max Attack and Chomp is dead.
EDIT: lol I feel really slow =\
at +1
478 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 364 - 430 (101.68% - 120.11%)
and at +0
319 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (68.16% - 80.45%)
I also am pretty sure a no speed Gyarados is still slower than max speed Adamant Garchomp. But All of what I just said could be off in the numbers department, so yeah.
Anyway, as of now I feel like all the suspects are pretty much on the fence, but Garchomp is the only one I feel is leaning in the direction of ubers. I'm still unsure of whether or not to include Sand Veil in my considerations as a legitimate reason for it to be broken, and that's really where I am right now.
at +1
478 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 364 - 430 (101.68% - 120.11%)
and at +0
319 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (68.16% - 80.45%)
I also am pretty sure a no speed Gyarados is still slower than max speed Adamant Garchomp. But All of what I just said could be off in the numbers department, so yeah.
Anyway, as of now I feel like all the suspects are pretty much on the fence, but Garchomp is the only one I feel is leaning in the direction of ubers. I'm still unsure of whether or not to include Sand Veil in my considerations as a legitimate reason for it to be broken, and that's really where I am right now.
I think this post is starting to apply again.
Mence has no surefire "counters" only checks in the form of CB Scizor, ScarfLatias ect. yet he is not uber. He is not uber because of common battle conditions limiting his setup. I believe that Garchomp, though, has plenty of chances to set up in the given metagame and can do significant damage to an opponents team. For example, Scizor's bullet punch only does around 50% to Garchomp while it can OHKO Salamence after, which severely dents Salamence's usage, while Garchomp can fire fang back for an EASY ohko (assuming it doesn't have outrage). Garchomp also has a few more setup oppurtunities. Don't forget Garchomp has better defensive stats than Swampert, and much better resists than Mence does (including the resistance to stealth rock). This makes a garchomp sweep easy to pull off. And for the final nail in the coffin, Garchomp fits the support characteristic because of his limited checks. Garchomp requires Specs Latias / Steel types to be on your team or otherwise, he will sweep you easily. Some Garchomp sets (EM's Bulky Haban, SD Life Orb) have the potential to beat these counters (Skarm is generally SD oriented and Bronzong is 2hkod by life orb fire fang while he can not ohko garchomp back). This opens up sweeps for pokemon that enjoy these pokemon being removed... such as Salamence for example.
So that is why I now think Garchomp is Uber.