np: Stage 3-3 - Maybe we should have used that warp pipe back in 1-1 after all...

[Twin_Scimitar]

So Max / Max Bold Manaphy can take a +1 Outrage from LO Mence. That really isn't too big of a deal because, assuming that it runs Heart Swap, the set would look something like this:

Manaphy@Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpA

Surf
Rest
Rain Dance
Heart Swap

So even if you survive the Outrage and HS the speed boost, you are left with a single attack to sweep with. And that's if 236 SpA Surf is enough to pick off a weakened Mence / Nite / Gyara. Heart Swap's niche is much more likely to be found in double battles, where Manaphy can pass off its Acid Armors and Tail Glows to its partner.

Offensively speaking, Manaphy has no need to Heart Swap - it has access to the much more reliable CM / TG to boost its stats, and it definitely doesn't have the moveslots to fit yet another attack onto its set. Heart Swap...is gimmicky at best, and despite all claims of theorymon, some things are just common sense; this would be such an example, IMO.

Antique Roadshow used Heart Swap Manaphy on a stall team, and according to him it performed well. Antique Roadshow is a great battler, who cashed in a lot of wins for the champions Oceania in the World Cup of Pokemon. I'm assuming he used it as a cm sweeper check/end game sweeper. Perhaps he did use it to check mence, and ran ice beam. Maybe he ran a rest/rd or a sleeptalking set (both of which would run surf/heart swap).

I'm pretty sure that Heart swap has been fixed in any case, but considering that a great battler Antique Roadshow, and one of our best battlers Panamaxis has agreed that it works as well, I'm interested in testing it.

 

[FelixMinamimoto]

Heart Swap's still kind of gimmicky, and I think that the Tail Glow sets are the most effective. I haven't used Manaphy much besides that, but I don't think it's that overpowering in the OU metagame. Strong yes, overpowering no.

As far as Latias goes, I think it will eventually end up back in uber. As it seems as if everyone and their mother is using ScarfTrickLatias these days (at least those whom I have fought) it's not only super powerful, it's incredibly annoying. Only strange things like ScarfGar can outspeed it and I haven't seen that on a team in a loooong time. It has such a varied moveset that sometimes it seems as if the metagame is being balanced around countering it. That's not what the metagame's supposed to be.

 

[ARandomDude]

Heart Swap's still kind of gimmicky, and I think that the Tail Glow sets are the most effective. I haven't used Manaphy much besides that, but I don't think it's that overpowering in the OU metagame. Strong yes, overpowering no.

As far as Latias goes, I think it will eventually end up back in uber. As it seems as if everyone and their mother is using ScarfTrickLatias these days (at least those whom I have fought) it's not only super powerful, it's incredibly annoying. Only strange things like ScarfGar can outspeed it and I haven't seen that on a team in a loooong time. It has such a varied moveset that sometimes it seems as if the metagame is being balanced around countering it. That's not what the metagame's supposed to be. Isn't that why Garchomp moved to Uber?

Latias is hardly hard to switch in to. Jirachi and Metagross can switch in with almost no fear of getting 2HKOd. TTar will remain an incredibly big thorn in Latias' side, considering that Latias has basically nothing that can 2HKO w/o spikestacking, while TTar easily OHKOs. Not to mention that ScarfLatias after using Draco Meteor is great setup bait for tons of stuff (SubCMChi, SD Luc, etc.). I would hardly say the metagame revolves around Latias since the steels we already have do just fine. (On another note, I'm interested in Jirachi use, almost every team I've fought has had Jirachi).

 

[Quaily]

I'm not playing super serious like the start of last suspect(I'm using a crazy 5 water non rain dance team), but latias always frustrated me last suspect and continues to do so this time. She's an offensive threat with supreme coverage, a great revenge killer with trickscarf, and can stall with the best. Okay so a strong persuit can get her, but there are only 3 of them around in ou. Weavile checkmates her, but cannot switch into very much with how hard her specials hit, so that only leaves scizor and ttar. If it gets far enough that everyone is carrying scizor/ttar for latias then people will simply put hp: fire/fighting on her and fry the supposed counters. It could end up like raikou in uu and guessing at which hp it is carrying.

 

[rvrstar12]

I'm not playing super serious like the start of last suspect(I'm using a crazy 5 water non rain dance team), but latias always frustrated me last suspect and continues to do so this time. She's an offensive threat with supreme coverage, a great revenge killer with trickscarf, and can stall with the best. Okay so a strong persuit can get her, but there are only 3 of them around in ou. Weavile checkmates her, but cannot switch into very much with how hard her specials hit, so that only leaves scizor and ttar. If it gets far enough that everyone is carrying scizor/ttar for latias then people will simply put hp: fire/fighting on her and fry the supposed counters. It could end up like raikou in uu and guessing at which hp it is carrying.

everyone just about already packs scizor and/or T-Tar on their team because they are great pokes and easy to put on a team

 

[Quaily]

At most only 50% of teams have scizor or ttar, not counting any overlap(which I'm sure there is). Note also that all 3 of them have been steadily increasing in usage.

 

[IcyMan28]

Antique Roadshow used Heart Swap Manaphy on a stall team, and according to him it performed well. Antique Roadshow is a great battler, who cashed in a lot of wins for the champions Oceania in the World Cup of Pokemon. I'm assuming he used it as a cm sweeper check/end game sweeper. Perhaps he did use it to check mence, and ran ice beam. Maybe he ran a rest/rd or a sleeptalking set (both of which would run surf/heart swap).

I'm pretty sure that Heart swap has been fixed in any case, but considering that a great battler Antique Roadshow, and one of our best battlers Panamaxis has agreed that it works as well, I'm interested in testing it.

Like I said, I definitely wouldn't be against testing it - theorymon can only get you so far, and everything I'm saying is what I merely expect testing to show.

I'm interested in determining what role Manaphy played on his stall team, and the set, specifically. But if it is indeed a CM sweeper like you mentioned, it is MUCH more likely that the success came from Manaphy consistently setting up CM instead of Heart Swapping it over from something else. Heart Swap definitely has its niche, and I'm curious as to what that is.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

I'm assuming he used it as a cm sweeper check/end game sweeper. Perhaps he did use it to check mence, and ran ice beam. Maybe he ran a rest/rd or a sleeptalking set (both of which would run surf/heart swap).

But if it is indeed a CM sweeper like you mentioned, it is MUCH more likely that the success came from Manaphy consistently setting up CM instead of Heart Swapping it over from something else.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that he used heartswap Manaphy to check sweepers like cm Latias, cm Jirachi, cm Suicune, and probably tg Manaphy as well ("cm sweeper check"= a check for cm sweepers). I went on to say that the movesets could be rest/rd/heartswap/surf or rest/stalk/heartswap/surf.

After thinking about it more I think it's unlikely that those were the sets. However, I don't think that cm was part of that set. I am formulating a team, and plan to test heart swap Manaphy as soon as I'm done with my current team.

Just so I make myself clear, I don't think that Manaphy, if uber, is uber due to a heart swap set. Some tg set will do that if it is indeed uber. However, I feel it could be a very useful set if used properly.

And so we are all on the same page:

I used Heart swap Manaphy very effectively on a stall team on the first Manaphy suspect test. it helped fill many holes in my teams stopping pokemon that set up in their tracks and just generally cleaning up after residual spikes damage, even without stealing some boosts.

This is the post I'm referring to, and the information I'm extrapolating from.

 

[haunter]

As far as Latias goes, I think it will eventually end up back in uber. As it seems as if everyone and their mother is using ScarfTrickLatias these days (at least those whom I have fought) it's not only super powerful, it's incredibly annoying. Only strange things like ScarfGar can outspeed it and I haven't seen that on a team in a loooong time. It has such a varied moveset that sometimes it seems as if the metagame is being balanced around countering it. That's not what the metagame's supposed to be.

What? Latias uber because of trick-scarf??? To be honest, scarf-Latias is the less threatening set that Latias can run as long as you pack a pursuiter or something that can set up on her. TTar, Scizor, Metagross can switch into every attack Latias can throw at them and pursuit her to death. Weavile can come in after a kill and eliminate her even if she stays in with a CB pursuit. Scarf-Latias is an excellent revenge killer and check for things like Gyarados or even Jolteon, but is far from being broken. Not to mention that, like every choiced Pokemon, she's set up bait for dozens of Pokemon, SD Lucario and Scizor say hi. Lots of common scarf (and trick) users (see Jirachi, Rotom, Starmie) are annoying to deal with because of theyr combination of speed and bulk, but that doesn't make them uber anyway; if anything, I'd be a lot more scared by Jirachi that can flinch you to death with iron head\zen headbutt, by abusing its speed and ability.

I'm not playing super serious like the start of last suspect(I'm using a crazy 5 water non rain dance team), but latias always frustrated me last suspect and continues to do so this time. She's an offensive threat with supreme coverage, a great revenge killer with trickscarf, and can stall with the best. Okay so a strong persuit can get her, but there are only 3 of them around in ou. Weavile checkmates her, but cannot switch into very much with how hard her specials hit, so that only leaves scizor and ttar. If it gets far enough that everyone is carrying scizor/ttar for latias then people will simply put hp: fire/fighting on her and fry the supposed counters. It could end up like raikou in uu and guessing at which hp it is carrying.

You forget Metagross. TTar, Scizor and Metagross are common enough to trap\revenge\check\whatever Latias, and they were commonly used Pokemon even before Latias went down to OU. If you're using rain dance it's quite normal that you have troubles with Latias as she makes a great switch into water moves and with a scarf equipped can outspeed even some swift swimmers. Try using a rain dance Scizor or a Metagross with pursuit on your team and you'll be able to comfortably deal with Latias.

My point is: Latias is an excellent Pokemon, yes; broken, no.

 

[Darkmalice]

I've seen a lot of Latias. And agreeing with Haunter, Scarf Latias is very prone to Pursuit, because Ttar and Scizor are everywhere and can easily come in on her. From my experience, Scarf Latias works poorly in this metagame. Most of the Latias I see either have Specs or Leftovers. Specs is better than Scarf, but Specs Latias are usually predictable and use Draco Meteor too often, enabling a Steel-type Pokemon (cough Scizor) to easily come in. With Leftovers, it's a matter of getting in Ttar, Scizor, Metagross etc in and predicting with Crunch/Pursuit/Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch.

Latias needs to either come in late game after Ttar and/or Scizor have been exposed and weakened, or if she has Reflect to survive Pursuit. Hidden Power Fire also helps against Scizor, and is strongly recommended for Scizor alone. When using HP Fire Latias, it helps to have your own Ttar, so you can remove rain, and Scizor then won't be able to survive rain.

As for Manaphy, I've been seeing many different sets. Without Garchomp to check it, it's better than before. But I'm not sure whether to say it's uber or not yet. Whilst Latias is fairly predictable, Manaphy isn't. I can send in Latias to check it, but if Manaphy has Substitute, I risk eating an Ice Beam. Same can apply if Manaphy has Calm Mind. But if I come in on Tail Glow or Surf, I can Thunderbolt it (if it is sufficiently weakened).

 

[D0nut Eater]

Manaphy doesn't seem to be broken. Many OU teams already prepare for bulky waters, and in most cases Manaphy is taken out in a similar way, only it has the possiblity to run TG, or other offensive sets. Manaphy would probably be the most powerful water type in OU, but there are others who can do better defensively So far I believe it could be OU, as with Latias.

 

[cantab]

But how many teams 'prepare for bulky waters' with Grass Knot? Even Vaporeon takes a fair bit from it (I think it gets 60 base power), but Manaphy takes next to nothing.

 

[IcyMan28]

But how many teams 'prepare for bulky waters' with Grass Knot? Even Vaporeon takes a fair bit from it (I think it gets 60 base power), but Manaphy takes next to nothing.

This is an interesting point to note. Players will now have to decide between using Grass Knot (greatest risk / reward), Energy Ball (consistency across the board), or even HP Electric (more general coverage than Energy Ball, but hits a bit weaker). Even so:

Standard:

Thunderbolt - 13.89%

Suspect:

Thunderbolt - 15.11%

Thunderbolt is the second most-used attack in the metagame, understandably more so in the Suspect metagame. Electric provides great coverage anyway, resisted by 3 types alone (one of which is almost always dealt with by a hidden power).

EDIT: While the focus on this suspect test seems to be Manaphy, I have to say that Latias is performing about as well as it always has. Manaphy doesn't significantly threaten it - its other way around - and she still has the power, speed, and bulk that makes her so effective. Of course, she isn't without her checks. Many people have mentioned Pursuit, and Latias can't take powerful physical assaults. She seems solid OU so far.

 

[FelixMinamimoto]

Heh, yeah, last night I was probably thinking Latias was a lot stronger than it actually is - that is the result of having numerous teams with rather crippling Latias weaknesses.

Having run tests early this morning, I realized that on a standard CB Scizor surf from LO Latias does about 60% damage, where pursuit almost OHKOs with it not even switching out.

It's certainly annoying, but with the metagame that contains so many steel Pokemon it can be outplayed.

Seems OU from what I've seen. It just continues to encourage the use of steel types...

 

[ultimifier]

Heh, yeah, last night I was probably thinking Latias was a lot stronger than it actually is - that is the result of having numerous teams with rather crippling Latias weaknesses.

Having run tests early this morning, I realized that on a standard CB Scizor surf from LO Latias does about 60% damage, where pursuit almost OHKOs with it not even switching out.

It's certainly annoying, but with the metagame that contains so many steel Pokemon it can be outplayed.

Seems OU from what I've seen. It just continues to encourage the use of steel types...

the reason there are so many steels though is because the 2 most powerful pokemon in OU are latias and salamence (blah blah scizor, but these are the two most powerful hands down). Steels have always been good but because of these retardedly powerful dragons they are used more than they should be. Im not gonna participate in this test due to no time, but be on an open mind on latias. I know its been used in OU for so long, but its true potential is starting to show and its glaringly obvious it is the best (or second best) pokemon in OU

 

[deluge]

Steels are the only Dragon resist so they are going to be common whenever Dragons are allowed.
And those, due to their generally high BSTs and high powered STAB moves, usually reside in the higher tiers.
Draco Meteor, even off Flygon's SpA, smarts unprepared targets; it's really the nature of the Dragon type and its moves.

 

[Bilaterus]

I agree with Haunter, that is to say Latias is a good Pokemon, not a broken one. Teams that cannot deal with Latias tend to be poorly constructed, players themselves are at fault, or the team didn't account for her in the first place. (I am not saying that the user of said Latias has nothing to do with it, not at all!) Latias seems to be able to do many things well, although not at the same time. Kind of like the top-level Pokemon in OU already. With Scizor running around everywhere already because of BP, etc, I don't think that Latias is soley to blame for that.

I am slightly concerned about Latias centralising the game somewhat, but I don't think it is much to worry about.

As for Manaphy, I can't say anything really as I don't use it, but it seems that, like Latias, it can do many things well, but not at the same time. However, it does sound to be much more difficult to handle.

 

[cmurph]

I agree with Haunter, that is to say Latias is a good Pokemon, not a broken one. Teams that cannot deal with Latias tend to be poorly constructed, players themselves are at fault, or the team didn't account for her in the first place. (I am not saying that the user of said Latias has nothing to do with it, not at all!) Latias seems to be able to do many things well, although not at the same time. Kind of like the top-level Pokemon in OU already. With Scizor running around everywhere already because of BP, etc, I don't think that Latias is soley to blame for that.

I am slightly concerned about Latias centralising the game somewhat, but I don't think it is much to worry about.

As for Manaphy, I can't say anything really as I don't use it, but it seems that, like Latias, it can do many things well, but not at the same time. However, it does sound to be much more difficult to handle.

I've been using my main OU team on the suspect ladder and I have had no trouble handling Manaphy. The tricks I use to beat things like suicune, vaporeon, and rain dance teams on the standard ladder work fine against Manaphy. Also, any Manaphy without hp electric or energy is set up fodder for enemy Manaphy

 

[Staraptor Call]

Like cmurph, I haven't had to change my ordinary OU team to accomodate Manaphy. Latias itself can be a Manaphy check, although not a 100% counter, if you use the Choice Specs set and get up Stealth Rock early. Most Manaphy don't run any SDef EVs, so Latias can OHKO them with Draco Meteor provided Manaphy gets no Calm Mind boosts.

 

[IcyMan28]

I agree with Haunter, that is to say Latias is a good Pokemon, not a broken one. Teams that cannot deal with Latias tend to be poorly constructed, players themselves are at fault, or the team didn't account for her in the first place. (I am not saying that the user of said Latias has nothing to do with it, not at all!) Latias seems to be able to do many things well, although not at the same time. Kind of like the top-level Pokemon in OU already. With Scizor running around everywhere already because of BP, etc, I don't think that Latias is soley to blame for that.

Agreed. While Latias has a few more options than the typical special attacker (defensive CM, specially defensive wall, Wish support), it is kept in check by its Psychic-typing, much weaker physical stats, and the tendency to only attack effectively from one end of the spectrum. Steels have and always will be predominant, so that includes another built-in check.

I am slightly concerned about Latias centralising the game somewhat, but I don't think it is much to worry about.

As for Manaphy, I can't say anything really as I don't use it, but it seems that, like Latias, it can do many things well, but not at the same time. However, it does sound to be much more difficult to handle.

Sounds? Or you've found it to be so? Assuming Tail Glow, Manaphy will do the same amount of damage over the course of two turns as Starmie would by using two attacks, not to mention that the sea star has the more powerful Thunderbolt, Trick, and higher speed.

Of course, Manaphy makes up for this with a considerably higher amount of bulk. It has the ability to do the following well, IMO:

Choice Specs
Tail Glow + 3 Attacks
SubTG + 2 Attacks
CM + Rain Rest + Surf
Defensive Rain Rest


I've also been experimenting with an alternative EV spread on TG Manaphy:

Manaphy@Leftovers
Timid; 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe

Surf
Tail Glow
Ice Beam
HP Electric

The HP EVs provide Manaphy with considerable bulk, along the lines of Tinkerbell Celebi - but with much more speed, outrunning +spe base 90s. However, Lefties > LO mean that Manaphy has a net gain of 16% HP when it attacks, and 6% when it doesn't. It proves effective when dealing against opposing Latias because:

478 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 306 - 360 (75.74% - 89.11%)

Timid Specs Latias has an extremely difficult time KOing with Draco Metoer - a mere 7.69% chance of OHKO with Stealth Rock. Assuming that Manaphy TG's on the switch:

512 Atk vs 296 Def & 302 HP (95 Base Power): 238 - 280 (78.81% - 92.72%)

it has a 33.33% chance of OHKOing Latias with Ice Beam, thanks to Stealth Rock - which means that Latias is as good as dead the next time it switches in. Not too shabby at all.

 

[Lockeness]

In my humble opinion manaphy should be OU because-
1. Blissey can wall almost any version of manaphy and can beat it down with calm mind plus toxic/t-wave.
2. A large part of the metagame can easily revenge kill or KO manaphy because of their high speed. i.e.- Jolteon,Latias(thunderbolt), gengar(same), etc.
3. Offensive pure waters are virtually nonexistant (gyrados usage has fallen, starmie is much better as a rapid spinner and all of the other waters are tanks etc.) and getting manaphy in OU means that water's resistance to water can see much more use.
4. Rain can be difficult to use in OU and so hydration may not be as broken as people think.

There are other reasons I believe Manaphy should be OU but these are the most prominent and make the most sense in the current debate. I think manaphy will bring something new to the table and will be an excellent addition to OU.

 

[PI-Dimension]

In my humble opinion manaphy should be OU because-
1. Blissey can wall almost any version of manaphy and can beat it down with calm mind plus toxic/t-wave.
2. A large part of the metagame can easily revenge kill or KO manaphy because of their high speed. i.e.- Jolteon,Latias(thunderbolt), gengar(same), etc.
3. Offensive pure waters are virtually nonexistant (gyrados usage has fallen, starmie is much better as a rapid spinner and all of the other waters are tanks etc.) and getting manaphy in OU means that water's resistance to water can see much more use.
4. Rain can be difficult to use in OU and so hydration may not be as broken as people think.

There are other reasons I believe Manaphy should be OU but these are the most prominent and make the most sense in the current debate. I think manaphy will bring something new to the table and will be an excellent addition to OU.

1. Blissey can't do ANYTHING to Manaphy, if Manaphy runs rain dance, whereas a +6 Manaphy does 72.96% - 85.87% to Standard Wish Bliss. (Rest will rest of Seismic Toss/BoltBeamSurf damage)

2. Standard Tail Glow manaphy will almost always survive Specs Timid T-Bolt, Whereas +2 Ice Beam will almost always OHKO Latias.

Gengar w/ specs?

3. Kingdra and Empoleon say hi.

4. This doesn't stop people from using Rain Dance teams :D

However, I do agree that manaphy should be OU. Jolteon destroys it, Zapdos can probably take a Ice Beam, for those variants, Starmie/Gengar/Latias are faster and can revenge kill, and scarf magnezone laughs at it.

 

[blasphemy1]

In my humble opinion manaphy should be OU because-
1. Blissey can wall almost any version of manaphy and can beat it down with calm mind plus toxic/t-wave.
2. A large part of the metagame can easily revenge kill or KO manaphy because of their high speed. i.e.- Jolteon,Latias(thunderbolt), gengar(same), etc.
3. Offensive pure waters are virtually nonexistant (gyrados usage has fallen, starmie is much better as a rapid spinner and all of the other waters are tanks etc.) and getting manaphy in OU means that water's resistance to water can see much more use.
4. Rain can be difficult to use in OU and so hydration may not be as broken as people think.

There are other reasons I believe Manaphy should be OU but these are the most prominent and make the most sense in the current debate. I think manaphy will bring something new to the table and will be an excellent addition to OU.

1. Almost every variant of Manaphy can easily set up on and beat Blissey. SubCM variants, Sub + Tail Glow, Tail Glow + Rain Dance, and especially physical(Waterfall) or mixed.

2. Well it will certainly change how people deal with pokemon. Things like CB Scizor can't just be thrown on any team to handle revenge killing duties.

3. Gyarados usage has barely fallen, its just other pokemon have been used more. Starmie is certainly a more efficient special "cleaner" in my opinion, as LO Hydro Pumps with that great movepool make it fantastic at that role.

4. The only things stopping rain are Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon. The latter two are actually beaten(CB Tyranitar is stalled through Rest + Hydration) and Abomasnow has a slew of awful weaknesses(rock, fire, fighting) which hinder it.

I'm not saying Manaphy should(n't) be OU, but your reasoning is quite flawed.

 

[connoisseur]

Manaphy should probably be OU. Tail glow is less useful when it is inevitable that a faster pokemon (>328 speed) with thunderbolt/Thunder(either latias, jolteon, even scarfrotom, I personally use scarfzone) can come in and destroy it. Those two characteristics are literally all a manaphy revenger needs.

The only set that I found very troubling to fight was the CM set. It is very similar to suicune and is a pain to beat, just like suicune.

Also, why doesn't Manaphy have hydropump?

Overall, Manaphy just is not good enough to be exiled to ubers. Hydration is cool, but its movepool sucks tremendously in my opinion.



Latias has been and will remain the prime pursuit bait in OU. There is nothing it can do to escape the likes of tyrantitar without certain death. The nonchoiced latias sets failed when I used them in the past for this very reason. They were just too Epic pursuit bait, and I really didn't want to feel forced to use HP Fire. Scarf Latias is a very useful revenger, but Tyrantitar and co. totally own the poor sucker after it gets a kill. I can't really say anything about specslatias.
It has little to no chance to become uber.

I expect Tyrantitar usage in suspect to be very very high due to his ability to totally crush any latias set (save maybe the GK+specs set if it exists) and his natural ability to screw with RD teams that may employ manaphy. I usually run one :)

 

[Gazooki]

I used Manaphy on a rain dance team during the breif period when it was OU, and it was definetely good, but not too good for OU. Sure, the CM set can take some massive hits, but then so can Suicune, and that's OU too!

Manaphy's movepool isn't too great either, with Surf, Grass Knot and Ice Beam being the only real choices for a special set (except for HP obviously) and its physical movepool is even worse!

Sandstorms will ruin hydration-reliant Tail Glow sets with ease, since Manaphy will have to switch out so rain can be set up again (unless you use up a moveslot with rain dance, which restricts it even more). Rain Dance vs Rain Dance scenarios will revolve around whoever's quickest to set up, and, since Zapdos is fairly common on RD teams, Manaphy might not be around for too long. Other, non-weather teams will soon get annoyed though, seeing as even Blissey gets its ass kicked by most Manaphy sets in rain.

Manaphy is obviously nowhere near as good outside rain, as it can't recover from status problems wihtout rain support. Although I haven't used it in a non-rain team, I can imagine that it will be a lot more difficult to keep it alive and set up, especiallly if there are powerful Grass or Electric types on the opponent's team.

Manaphy = OU.