Which aspect of Dragons is more broken: Pokémon or Moves?

[RBG]

As many of you know, throughout our suspect tests, we have been testing mostly Dragons. No one will argue when the statement "Dragon is the best type" is made, mainly because, it's true. With Steel as the only type resistant, Dragon is a very easy move to just start spamming. And of the Dragon moves that are used, their are two obvious choices:

Outrage, 120 BP, Physical, 2-3 Turn Rampage effect

Draco Meteor, 140 BP Special, -2 SpA

Since the Physical/Special split at the beginning of the Generation, Dragons have been hitting harder than ever before. And if you check the stats as well, in addition to the thread in PR about Salamence, you will see that Dragons really rely on these two High Base Power moves. Another testament to how useful these moves are is the boost we saw Pokemon get after Platinum. True, Salamence did have to live in Garchomp's shadow before then, but Outrage made Salamence infinitely more deadly. The same goes with Latios. One of the major reasons it was made Uber was because Specs Draco Meteor destroyed almost anything that switched in.

The fact remains, that with these two moves banned, the dragons become much less dangerous. Here are the two alternatives to the aforementioned moves:

Dragon Claw, Physical, 80 BP, (66.66% as strong as Outrage)

Dragon Pulse, Special, 90 BP (64.29% as strong for the first hit, about 85.71% over two hits)

As you can see there is a considerable reduction in damage by using these two moves. And if you have seen some of the calcs that have been made using Outrage and Draco Meteor are a little easier to manage.

What should be discussed?

1. Is banning 2 moves to allow 2 Pokemon from Uber to be potential OU, as well as making two suspects less deadly?

2. Will it be worth it if other non borderline Pokemon (Flygon, Kingdra) are hurt by this decision?

3. Which is more broken, the Dragons or the Moves?

 

[LoveDensity]

Moves gives Pokemon things to play with, but it takes stats to make use of those skills which makes dragons are more broken.

Edit: Ok, not a very good statement. There are Pokemon that has access to Outrage (Fertaligatar, Gyarados, Tyranitar, etc.) which can't really utilize it. The typing of the dragon itself makes it more viable. In combination with stats and type makes the Dragon even more viable than the moves.

 

[drcossack]

The Pokemon. Having access to moves with 140 and 120 BP doesn't make you broken - you need to have the stats to back them up. Garchomp, Lati@s, Salamence, and Dragonite? They all have the Attack and Special Attack (or both) for their STAB Dragon attacks to hit hard.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I agree with LoveDestiny. It's not the moves that are broken, it's the Pokemon.

Flygon has access to both Draco Meteor and Outrage (correct me if I'm wrong here) but yet we don't see it in OU as often as Salamence. Flygon doesn't even have the major SR weakness. But, Flygon also lacks the 135 Base Attack and 110 Special Attack of Salamence. It takes the stats to make the moves work, not the moves to make the stats work.


I oughta also address the other questions as well.

If Flygon and Kingdra are hurt by this decision, you have to keep in mind that they also dropped in proportion with Salamence/Dragonite/Garchomp/Lati@s. They were used so much in comparison and dropped so much because they lost the same moves and the same usability they had before. If Garchomp came back to OU anyway, it Flygon would still drop.

As for the question of banning two moves, that is absolutely ridiculous. That's making the metagame suit our needs because we want to bring back proven broken Pokemon. There should never be a banning of a move just to bring Pokemon from Uber back and to lessen the threat of other Pokemon. That's, once again, shifting the metagame for us or our enjoyment rather than finding ways to get around it or shift the metagame on our own.

 

[cantab]

The Pokemon. Other types have powerful moves too.

 

[Alex_Dino]

If I had to choose, I'd go with the moves. Not only does it have the possibility of bringing back two Ubers from OU, which would effectively give OU more versatility (albeit little), but you can still work with the alternatives. 80/90 BP isn't bad, I mean, it would literally be a Dragon-type Flamethrower, which is often compared to its "brother" move Fire Blast, and is still considered a viable alternative. The Dragons themselves are by no means broken, I think it's more the moves.

 

[RBG]

But look at it this way. The moves themselves make 2 pokemon that could be OU currently Uber, and 2 other pokemon Suspects. At what point do we say that banning the Dragons (which is currently at 2) is too many and we could have less pokemon banned and a better metagame if we ban the moves instead?

 

[bigfoots]

I'm agreeing that it's the Pokemon as well. Infernape has access to STAB moves with the same power on both sides (Overheat and Flare Blitz), yet isn't as powerful as Salamence, for two reasons. The first is that Salamence has higher base attacking stats on both sides, but the second is that, as RB Golbat mentioned, Dragon is the best offensive typing. Without the sky high attacking stats that usually come hand in hand with the dragon typing, the coverage (and base power) offered by the moves wouldn't matter as much.

Edit (Response to RB Golbat): If the moves are banned, Pokemon such as Dragonite and Flygon would would lose the ability to use some of their best moves, even when it is generally accepted that these moves do not break these Pokemon. If there are Pokemon that can use certain moves and be decidedly OU material, then, in my opinion, the moves are not broken, the Pokemon abusing the moves are.

 

[cantab]

The problem with banning moves is that will just make our whole tiering system too complicated. I mean, I'm sure many people would like to ban Iron Head from Jirachi and Air Slash from Togekiss, and that could be quite justifiable. But it's introducing an extra level of complexity. Ban Outrage and Draco Meteor and shortly afterwards there'll be a newbie saying "Hey why isn't Outrage in Salamence's analysis? It's way better than Dragon Claw!"

 

[Quaily]

There are plenty of other equally powerful moves(overheat, close combat, leaf storm), and gyrados even learns outrage yet no one uses it. I guess it would be the 3rd choice: having STAB on those moves.

It's pretty much impossible for a 600 BST poke to be bad though, only shaymin isn't OU.

Wasn't garchomp using dragon claw a lot so it wouldn't get locked into outrage? not sure.

 

[Scofield]

As far as I understand it, banning moves is allowed if we can make the claim that every pokemon that can learn it becomes uber. While we can say that for a majority of the pokemon (I'm only counting stab users), I don't know if I can say that for flygon and kingdra. If draco meteor and outrage is banned, then latios and rayquaza could both become suspects, which is quite interesting.

 

[DJXO9]

Personally, I dislike the idea of a blanket ban, in which even though it only takes away one thing, it DIRECTLY affects others. For an example, if Scizor were banned, hypothetical, just for the example, Magnezone usage would inevitably go done. That is an indirect affect. Taking away Outrage and Draco Meteor from Salamence, Garchomp, Flygon, Lati@s, and Altaria would immediately effect them.

Also, if we're looking to balance the metagame, something drastic like that could easily throw things off. If we're looking to make it 'perfect' something like this is not what we need. Then again, maybe something like this is what we need to do just that. Until then though, I'm against this.

 

[RBG]

I'm agreeing that it's the Pokemon as well. Infernape has access to STAB moves with the same power on both sides (Overheat and Flare Blitz), yet isn't as powerful as Salamence, for two reasons. The first is that Salamence has higher base attacking stats on both sides, but the second is that, as RB Golbat mentioned, Dragon is the best offensive typing. Without the sky high attacking stats that usually come hand in hand with the dragon typing, the coverage (and base power) offered by the moves wouldn't matter as much.

The thing is though, there is the brutal combination of the typing, the pokemon that get the moves, and the move's power level. The thing that makes these moves different from other moves with High base Power is that these moves actually make Pokemon that are suspects less powerful, easier to deal with, and quite possibly, OU.

The problem with banning moves is that will just make our whole tiering system too complicated. I mean, I'm sure many people would like to ban Iron Head from Jirachi and Air Slash from Togekiss, and that could be quite justifiable. But it's introducing an extra level of complexity. Ban Outrage and Draco Meteor and shortly afterwards there'll be a newbie saying "Hey why isn't Outrage in Salamence's analysis? It's way better than Dragon Claw!"

How will it make it too complicated? If we only ban moves from All pokemon that use it BECAUSE it would make too many pokemon that know it broken, then it isn't complex. It is not like we are cherry picking pokemon and moves and banning them. It is more akin to Evasion Clause where no pokemon can use those moves.

And people wondering why those move aren't in are analysis should be the least of our concerns

As far as I understand it, banning moves is allowed if we can make the claim that every pokemon that can learn it becomes uber. While we can say that for a majority of the pokemon (I'm only counting stab users), I don't know if I can say that for flygon and kingdra. If draco meteor and outrage is banned, then latios and rayquaza could both become suspects, which is quite interesting.

There was never actually any formal decision but the best way to look at it would be to look at the clauses for the Pokemon and try to best. It is almost without dispute that these moves allow Dragons to punch holes in teams much easier than any other move for any other type, merely because of the coverage, and pokemon that learn them.

 

[Stylish Interval]

But look at it this way. The moves themselves make 2 pokemon that could be OU currently Uber, and 2 other pokemon Suspects. At what point do we say that banning the Dragons (which is currently at 2) is too many and we could have less pokemon banned and a better metagame if we ban the moves instead?

Let's say we ban the moves. Outrage and Draco Meteor gone. Now we've basically removed the heavy threat of the Dragons, yes. Salamence is forced to carry only Dragon Claw, making MixMence almost null. Latias carries only Dragon Pulse now. Garchomp can use Dragon Claw. Latios can use Dragon Pulse.

Now, the metagame would shift with this. This, to me, means that walls can now come in easier. That is the only con I can see to doing this, along with it is only shifting the metagames for us to have a more enjoyable metagame and a less challenging one. The pros, we eliminate some of the biggest threats of the metagame, we make it easier for Steels to come in on Dragons and help our teams or something.

I think if Salamence is tested and found Uber, we've gone too far and the moves should be banned. If we can handle Salamence (which currently we can, or else we would have logical, valid arguments for it being Uber) then the moves probably aren't broken. The minute Salamence is too much is the minute we should ban the moves. I personally don't want to see another RBY Metagame where we have one great Dragon, except this time this one great Dragon would be weak to Pursuit.

EDIT:

Again, LoveDestiny comes up with better points than I did. Latios still has a ridiculous high Base Sp.A and movepool, along with great defenses to hold it's own against even our OU top threats. Garchomp can still take on the majority of our OU metagame without Outrage, as it can hit almost everything just as well without Outrage. Stats still make the Pokemon strong or weak, the moves only help them get farther.

 

[LoveDensity]

But look at it this way. The moves themselves make 2 pokemon that could be OU currently Uber, and 2 other pokemon Suspects. At what point do we say that banning the Dragons (which is currently at 2) is too many and we could have less pokemon banned and a better metagame if we ban the moves instead?

The thing is that we have gotten to adapted to Outrage and Draco Meteor in that banning those moves are a preposterous thought. Is having less Pokemon banned really a good thing? It gives us more Pokemon, but whats the point of that? Garchomp does not need Outrage to be considered Uber. Latias does not need Draco Meteor to be an effective CMer, LO, or Specs user. Latios does not really need to Draco Meteor to be a powerful force either that can dominate the game with Specs Surf or LO moves.

The ones that will be affected are Salamence, Dragonite, and Kingdra (Flygon to some extent). But is it worth downgrading the Pokemon that actually have stats or typing by banning powerful moves? What is the point of having those stats in the first place when we cannot use it to full effect?

 

[Tint]

You really can't compare Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm. The dragon typing is such a blessing, with amazing coverage and no 4x resists. I feel that these moves are more broken than the pokemon themselves. IIRC, CB Mence can 2HKO Scizor with Outrage, which of itself is ridiculous. I think baning just these two moves is much better than banning potentially four pokemon. In this smogon renaissance of questioning how we play pokemon, I think we should start looking at things such as banning moves, removing clauses, and maybe even items, who knows. People should open their minds a bit more, and maybe realize that it's not broken pokemon, just broken moves.

 

[Huntofthelion]

It's the fact that they gain STAB on these already ridiculously strong moves that make them good. When only one type resists your STAB it's not hard to cover that with two coverage moves and a support move. Back that up with the fact that the only type that resists it is able to be trapped by Magnezone or give up their leftover recovery, and you have a really reliable way to wear down walls. The less powerful STAB moves are more manageable, though I guess the same argument could apply.

 

[blasphemy1]

I don't think the banning of Outrage would necessarily improve the metagame, as pokemon like Flygon, Altaria, Kingdra, etc, would lose their main STAB. By introducing Garchomp into OU, you take away any advantage Kingdra or Flygon had, moving them to UU(Kingdra doesn't have any other physical STAB). I do, however, believe Draco Meteor being banned could improve the metagame. By taking away some of the unpredictability and sheer power of pokemon like Salamence and Latios, you can alleviate the stress on steel types in OU. This would allow Latios(most likely) to become suspect, likely voted OU, but not taking away the niches of Kingdra and Flygon(and Altaria in lower tiers). Salamence is not nearly as threatening once Draco Meteor is out of the question, as Porygon2 can switch into it with impunity(Specs Dragon Pulse can be EV'd to not 2HKO).

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Why does Mence being deemed Uber make Outrage/DM the truly ban-worthy aspects of the metagame?

Moves gives Pokemon things to play with, but it takes stats to make use of those skills which makes dragons are more broken.

Edit: Ok, not a very good statement. There are Pokemon that has access to Outrage (Fertaligatar, Gyarados, Tyranitar, etc.) which can't really utilize it. The typing of the dragon itself makes it more viable. In combination with stats and type makes the Dragon even more viable than the moves.

Hmm, couldn't the inverse argument be made too? "There are pokémon that has great stats (Arcanine, Entei, Regigigas) which can't really utilize it".

 

[Jonathan]

I don't think this is a very fair question to ask, as we have very little practical experience using one without the other. Only Dragon types learn Draco Meteor, and the only Pokemon you see Outrage on in OU is Dragon types. Sure, we've used Dragons with Dragon Claw/Dragon Pulse before and I think no one would argue that that combination is broken, but is that because the moves are weaker or the Dragons are hitting less hard (obviously it's a combination of the two, but it's very hard to say to what extent each factor contributes to hitting less hard, and thus which one is broken).

 

[skorpion123]

What should be discussed?

1. Is banning 2 moves to allow 2 Pokemon from Uber to be potential OU, as well as making two suspects less deadly?

i believe that no , in the case of removing Outrage or Draco meteor for pokemon that are not ubers. About ubers , i don't know if people want to test Garchomp or Latios without Outrage or draco meteor (and in latios case without his specifically made for him item).

2. Will it be worth it if other non borderline Pokemon (Flygon, Kingdra) are hurt by this decision?

It will not be worth it. In fact it's a false dilemma. Why ban Outrage on Flygon and not just ban it from Garchomp set (in OU , he can use whatever he wants in ubers) ?

If we have no choice but only either ban the moves from everything or ban those specific pokemon that are uber with those moves , i say ban the ubers.

No reason to have poor Flygon and other not uber Dragons suffer ,eh ?

3. Which is more broken, the Dragons or the Moves?

At most is The combination of specific dragons + those moves. Or is just those dragons with or without those moves.

So the solution is to either ban those dragons or to ban those moves on only their sets , if without those moves they are not uber anymore.

I believe that there is no reason at all to ban outrage-dracometeor on Flygon/Kingdra/Latias maybe Salamence and there no reason at all to even think of doing that.

 

[LoveDensity]

Why does Mence being deemed Uber make Outrage/DM the truly ban-worthy aspects of the metagame?



Hmm, couldn't the inverse argument be made too? "There are pokémon that has great stats (Arcanine, Entei, Regigigas) which can't really utilize it".

The point is that the Dragons actually have the stats and type to utilize those skills while Arcanine, Entei, Regigigas do not have the dragon typing.

But looking at stats of dragons individually. Look at Altaria, it has the moves and typing, but not the stats. If Kingdra had more stats, it would be even better. If Flygon also had more stats, it would be better as well.

 

[Alex_Dino]

I'm guessing that banning Draco Meteor/Outrage on just the considered Suspects/Ubers is out of the question then.

 

[Myzozoa]

I voted for the moves, but the truth is that its a combination of the 2. All those dragons have good stats which make them viable. The reason why i think the moves are so broken is because they reach such bs base powers as stab moves. Many steels are 2hkoed by outrage/draco meteor which means they can't even switch in,so they are really hard to wall, and often mandate a sacrifice in order to be cleanly revenge killed. There really isn't difinitive answer to the question. I don't think these moves should be banned just to make certain pokemon less powerful.

 

[drcossack]

If I had to choose, I'd go with the moves. Not only does it have the possibility of bringing back two Ubers from OU, which would effectively give OU more versatility (albeit little), but you can still work with the alternatives. 80/90 BP isn't bad, I mean, it would literally be a Dragon-type Flamethrower, which is often compared to its "brother" move Fire Blast, and is still considered a viable alternative. The Dragons themselves are by no means broken, I think it's more the moves.

Alex, look at the Special Attack and Attack stats for Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon. SpA: 100 (Dragonite), 95 (Kingdra), and 80 (Flygon.) Their Attack stats: 134, 100, 95.

Mence's Atk/SpA stats are 135 and 110. Latias has 110 SpA, while Latios has 130.

Banning Outrage won't affect Lati@s, since they are special attackers, but they won't exactly suffer from Draco loss. With the exceptions of Dialga and Palkia (assuming 4 HP/0 SpDef), a Latios Draco with Life Orb (I haven't tested Choice Specs, and I'm also unsure on Soul Dew) will OHKO every Dragon that does not have Haban. Full health Garchomp barely survives Latios' Dragon Pulse.

Chomp will not be affected by a lack of Outrage. We'll end up returning to the days of T-Tar or Hippowdon paired with SDYache Sub Chomp - Dragon Claw and EQ after an SD boost will still tear through everything.

Let's say we ban the moves. Outrage and Draco Meteor gone. Now we've basically removed the heavy threat of the Dragons, yes. Salamence is forced to carry only Dragon Claw, making MixMence almost null. Latias carries only Dragon Pulse now. Garchomp can use Dragon Claw. Latios can use Dragon Pulse.

Now, the metagame would shift with this. This, to me, means that walls can now come in easier. That is the only con I can see to doing this, along with it is only shifting the metagames for us to have a more enjoyable metagame and a less challenging one. The pros, we eliminate some of the biggest threats of the metagame, we make it easier for Steels to come in on Dragons and help our teams or something.

I think if Salamence is tested and found Uber, we've gone too far and the moves should be banned. If we can handle Salamence (which currently we can, or else we would have logical, valid arguments for it being Uber) then the moves probably aren't broken. The minute Salamence is too much is the minute we should ban the moves. I personally don't want to see another RBY Metagame where we have one great Dragon, except this time this one great Dragon would be weak to Pursuit.

EDIT:

Again, LoveDestiny comes up with better points than I did. Latios still has a ridiculous high Base Sp.A and movepool, along with great defenses to hold it's own against even our OU top threats. Garchomp can still take on the majority of our OU metagame without Outrage, as it can hit almost everything just as well without Outrage. Stats still make the Pokemon strong or weak, the moves only help them get farther.

If Mence is banned, it won't be because of the moves. MixMence's Draco and Outrage Combo brutalize everything that isn't Steel, that's true. However, it's his 135 Attack and 110 Special Attack that allow this to happen. Dragonite's Outrage would have a power similar to that of Sala's (while DNite's Draco would not, when compared to its Outrage), and Kingdra/Flygon are much weaker in both areas than Salamence and Dragonite.

I agree with everything else though, but there's something else to look at. Mence is slightly stronger than Garchomp (130 Attack on Chomp); if the moves are banned (and this causes Salamence to become OU again, assuming it is banned), the current MixMence set of Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor will turn into this, most likely: Mence @ LO with Dragon Claw/EQ/Fire Blast/Dragon Dance. The only thing that'd stop that Mence from being extremely destructive if the moves are banned is SR Damage. Like the current MixMence, the "New" offensive Mixmence would also have LO Recoil issues, but he'd be just as destructive as the current one.