@Arin: I agree with everything you said there. All I wanted to say in that post was that pmjc's statement that SDchomp has a higher offensive power than LO DDmence is not quite correct. It's really something minor in comparison to the other things mentioned (like the things you said about chomp's resistance to SR, sand veil, bulk, etc.), but pmjc said he's trying to emphasize that point, but that point isn't really true.
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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I was using Smogon's listed DDMence set, which usually runs with a Naïve nature (in order to outspeed more effectively) and 232 attack EVs, which when boosted (364 * 1.5 * 1.3) would yield a 710 attack (rounded up), which is lower than Garchomp's 718 with a Jolly nature. Although I do appreciate the fact that you payed careful attention to my post. :)
I think you dismiss the positive qualities of Rayquaza too easily. Its base attack stat is 15 points higher and its base special attack is 40 points higher. While Rayquaza's speed stat is five points slower, when you consider the overall sweeping gains it has in attack stat distribution, it's considerably more powerful than Salamence in many ways, and it is a far more powerful mixed sweeper because of the attack stat distribution. Even though Rayquaza does not have intimidate, its defensive stats are still significantly more bulkier than Salamence. Plus, seeing how he does not need a Life Orb to be extremely devestating, Rayquaza runs the option of having a Yache Berry or leftovers, which increases its bulkiness and makes it impossible to revenge kill. If Salamence were to do that, it would lose much of its sweeping power.
However, often if I want to cause more harm to the opposing team by having entry hazards, it's quite possible Stealth Rock and sandstorm will be in play. For example, if I wanted Stealth Rocks set up and I didn't want them to be blown away, I could pack a Rotom-A form to block and a Tyranitar to pursuit your example Starmie.
In addition, the fact that Salamence needs this much support doesn't do justice for its debated Uber status. An Uber pokemon should be a pokemon that could easily sweep without that much team assistance. For example, a Darkrai would require almost no assistance for it to sweep, while Lucario would need a lot.
Also, the Life Orb will have to be in play for Salamence to be an effective sweeper. Arguing that Life Orb isn't inplay for Salamence transforms him into a much weaker pokemon, and many of the OHKOs and 2HKOs disappear, and is in effect arguing the banning for a different pokemon.
I find the fact that some people consider Salamence fragile bordering on laughable. Specially Bulky Mence can survive and stall out most non-STAB'd Ice Beams using Roost. You're also assuming Salamence is using a Life Orb - Bulky Mence oftens runs Leftovers and runs Roost/DD/Outrage/Earthquake, which makes it hell on earth to take down, if a little easier to survive. Sure, Chomp didn't have an SR weakness, but he didn't have a 50% recovery move which removes one of his weaknesses and halves another.
Yeah, but it's trading survivability for significantly less power. You're better off running a bulky DD Dragonite with Light Screen support if you want to go that route.
As for the people who claim that Salamence is Uber for the same reason that Rayquaza is Uber, I disagree with that point. My reasoning for this is that Rayquaza has virtually everything that Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite has and even more. For one thing, its movepool includes SD, DD, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Overheat, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, and Extreme Speed. With 150 attack stats on both sides, an immunity to sand storm, enough power to not need Life Orb, and priority; Rayquaza can have an easy time decimating a team. Thus, completely differentiating it from Salamence.
The point is, it can do it, and it often does. Over 1 in 5 of Salamence carry Roost, so if your best answer to Salamence is "hey, residual damage, guiz!!1!" then 20% of the time you are in for a hell of a surprise.
This is silly. Salamence has every single of those moves you just listed with the exception of Swords Dance and Extremespeed. I doubt Swords Dance usage would even be that high, simply because outspeeding everything that can kill it except Pokemon that are Scarfed is much more valuable than a few extra KOs, considering Salamence 2HKOs the entire metagame with Outrage bar Sassy Bronzong with maxed defenses anyway. The only real advantage you listed there is that Salamence has no access to Extremespeed. Compared to the rest of the OU metagame, Salamence may as well have 150 attack stats on both sides - he has the highest attack in OU and the 11th highest special attack. Similarly, he doesn't Life Orb, either - just looking at the listed items in the Salamence sets on site gives a huge variety. All three Specs items, Yache, Leftovers, and Lum are listed. The only thing Salamence is missing is immunity to Sandstorm and priority.
Also, this is just listing. Rather than just throw lists at me, explain what those lists actually mean to the metagame. Instead of telling me all this, go back to page 8 or so, find my post that detailed the exact steps I used to reach the conclusion Salamence is Uber, or at the very least worthy of a Suspect test, and tell me exactly where I went wrong.
I think the loss that you have on attack is extremely significant, especially when you realize that its type coverage is not exactly that hard to resist.
First though, for reference, I shall be using the Smogon analysis for the recommended EV and stat distribution for BulkyMence, which has an Adamant nature with 64 attack EVs and 92 Speed. First of all, with the lower speed, every maxed out non-speed boosting pokemon with base 100 speed can outspeed it and potentially kill it. In addition, defensive pokemon like Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong can easily come into that set and either counter, pseudohaze, or setup (especially realizing that the later two pokemon either resist or are immune to Salamence's two attacks). In addition, Outrage is a 3HKO on Cresselia, which in turn could easily paralyze Salamence with Thunderwave, and ruin its sweeping ability.
You've missed the point, but sure, let's pretend that we're using Bronzong to stop RoostMence. They switch in a Mence, you switch in Bronzong, they use Choice Spec'd Fire Blast.
Oh dear.
What a shame...
Of course you can stop each individual set, but you can't stop them all. The same applied to most of the Pokemon we've made suspect. There was an individual Pokemon that could stop YacheChomp, but was fucked by HabanChomp/ChainChomp, etc, etc. (people called it Latias. Similarly, any fast Ice Beamer stopped HabanChomp, and quite a few things stopped ChainChomp.)
Oh dear.
What a shame...
Of course you can stop each individual set, but you can't stop them all. The same applied to most of the Pokemon we've made suspect. There was an individual Pokemon that could stop YacheChomp, but was fucked by HabanChomp/ChainChomp, etc, etc. (people called it Latias. Similarly, any fast Ice Beamer stopped HabanChomp, and quite a few things stopped ChainChomp.)
This can be said for plenty of pokemon that are not considered broken. For example, a Swords Dance Lucario could easily be countered by Rotom-A, thinking it has bullet punch, but instead has Crunch and completely destroys Rotom-A. Likewise, A Swords Dance Lucario could be killed by Gengar, thinking it has Crunch and therefore can outspeed it, but instead it packs Bullet Punch, and OHKOs Gengar. In another example, Gliscor switches into a Lucario set, thinking it's clearly the Swords Dance set, and instead gets a Hidden Power Ice from a Specs Lucario.
Similarly, you can't "stop all" Lucario sets, even though they're all easy to counter once you figure them out. Using the availability of counters is not a meaningful metric for how broken a pokemon is.
Agreed. Mence is no where near Rayquaza's level, which is why this entire suspect debate is going on in the first place. But I'd first like to address this post:
Your two cents are much appreciated. However, you have merely stated the following:
-You can use residual effects, damage output, and speed to determine a pokemon's set. Nothing new.
-HP Ice Gengar can deal with Salamence as long as it doesn't switch in. Latias can also deal with Salamence, as can X pokemon behind reflect that is decently EVd and has a move to deal with Mence.
-You use the example of a double switch (in this case after an Explosion KO), which is definitely the exception, not the rule when it comes to bringing in threats.
-LO recoil can be used to wear down a threat...same applies to Nape, Lucario...etc.
And while all of these methods could be used on any other pokemon, what would happen if, say, you brought in Roserade on a faster version of MixMence? If your lead Roserade can run HP Ice, I can certainly run a few more speed EVs on my Mence just to outspeed +speed 90s. Or let's say that you have ID'd Mence as the Dragon Dancer, and brought in your 80% health Swampert to lure an Outrage, only to find that it is succintly OHKOd by the Mixed Dancer's Draco Meteor? You used your methods to the best of your ability, but still lost a check and are now vulnerable to the impending Outrage / Earthquake.
Look at me, appearing to change sides in the middle of an argument :P
You lose Bronzong to Mence, but then you retaliate to finish Mence off. You made a trade. This should not affect the longterm strategy you had for your team, or you had a pretty bullshit team. "Pokemon is about seizing up your situation, finding the best moves to deal with the situation and how that affects your long term strategy."
The mentality that you need a perfect counter (look at me changing my tune some more) isn't needed. The counter definition I am using is Jumpman's definition - which is "being able to switch in repeatedly".We don't build teams around countering, you don't win that way. You build your team around a strategy. If one Pokemon messes up your strategy, you know you did it wrong, and you go in a fix it and adapt it to take on the threat. Now you should have a better strategy.
By saying no counters, we're just saying "It's unreasonable to deal with Salamence," which is basically why this thread is going almost nowhere. Salamence can be dealt with, you just need to think outside of the "counter mentality"
By the way, a lot of those quotes came from Tangerine. Credit given where credit is due.
I'm aware of this. I was just pointing out that RoostMence deals with some of his checks, to the extent where you can count the number of existing Chomp checks on one hand, where a "check" is anything that can outspeed and OHKO all sets or survive one attack and OHKO.
Choice Scarf Latias, Choice Scarf Gengar, Choice Scarf Starmie, Weavile, Choice Scarf Jolteon, Choice Scarf Aerodactyl, and Mamoswine are the only Pokemon that can check Salamence 100% reliably. ScarfCune and ScarfCress are the only Pokemon that can counter Salamence 100% reliably. That's what, nine Pokemon? Also, some of these are crazy overspecialised. What the hell does a Jolteon need a Choice Scarf for?
Lucario in contrast has a hell load more reliable checks because of his lacking speed, and relative lack of power using a Scarf set to boost that speed.
EDIT: Pokenerd, I'm more than aware of that. Check out my post on page 8.
However, I'd argue if Mence is guaranteed one kill per match when played correctly, that makes it Uber. After all, we banned Wobbuffet on the same grounds - if you predicted a Pokemon slower than Wobbuffet using a non-damaging move, you had a guaranteed kill. With Mence, if you predict a correct switch in, you have a guaranteed kill (unless they're using ScarfCune or ScarfCune, both of which have negligible usage). What difference is there?
So you bring in Heatran here to take the next Fire Blast, he switches to Vaporeon, etc. That wasn't really the point - the simple mistake could have cost you your last defense against, say, ScarfFlygon or LO Gengar, opening your team up for a sweep. Or, since Bronzong is typically given the task of setting up Rocks on those teams that it is used, you may have lost your opportunity to set them up...given Mence, Gyarados, etc a much easier time switching in, or simply losing out on those 1-2HKOs for your SDLuke.
You do realize that Salamence is still losing both offensive power and coverage when using that moveset. In addition, what's stopping you from paralyzing it or burning it. The reason why bulky DDNite is better than bulky DDMence is that it can maintain its bulkiness without sacrificing as much of its power.Deucalion2 said:
You do realize I can say the same thing about Tyranitar. Just consider the fact that Tyranitar can get past its counters with Fire Punch and Ice Beam. In addition, it's just as versatile as Salamence being able to run Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Tyraniboah, DDTar, RPTar, etc.Deucalion2 said:
Also, Salamence of now never centralized the metagame as much as Garchomp did in the DP era; the reason, Salamence just doesn't have the bulk, power and resistance/immunity to residual damage that Garchomp has. A 252 attackk evs Jolly Garchomp with a yache berry outpowers the 232 attackk evs naive Salamence. Because of this, Garchomp can withstand one Ice Beam, ko one pokemon, and do it without locking itself into Outrage. This caused many teams in the DP era to one various counters to the same one set. In addition, HabanChomp was never even thought of at the time and ChainChomp was considered a gimmick at best. In fact, it's still considered a gimmick.
The definition of an Uber Pokemon is not "Gets one kill per game". Most sweepers are guaranteed one kill per game, due to the fact that they come in late game and sweep, as in they faint Pokemon. I would go so far as to say Specs Heatran would be guaranteed one kill per game, due to the fact that it takes something like Blissey or a strong water type to take a +1 Overheat.
*For whoever posted and deleted their post*
I'm sorry if I don't understand correctly what you're saying, but it may come across as that I don't. You're saying Pokemon is a 6v6 game, not just a 6 1v1 matches kind of game? Yes, that's correct. You use the team and support to sweep. Salamence requires these things, something Pokemon like Kyogre and Rayquazza (sp?) don't need.
And again, you're basically showing what I just said as true. Your whole strategy shouldn't be upset just because you lost one Pokemon. Your strategy or your team is letting you down at the point where if you lose 1 out of 6 Pokemon you can't go through with it anymore. And rocks? Those are either set up on turn one or you'll have a hard time getting them down anyway in the offensive metagame of today. I'd love to see more people who didn't put rocks on just leads though. But that's aside from the point, we don't need to get into that.
Not when Salamence is the one providing the support (which is what I feel is the characteristics that it fits most). Let's look at some of the common pokemon that can reliably check / counter Salamence, as Deucalion so kindly pointed out. Those in bold are not overspecialized:
ScarfLatias: A reliable revenger to all Mence sets, as it can outspeed and kill with Draco Meteor.
ScarfGar: Also commonly used, it can revenge with HP Ice.
ScarfStar: Great coverage, doesn't worry too much about Pursuit thanks to a powerful Hydro Pump, and can Trick Blissey, so it is useful in its own right.
Weavile: Not too threatening, generally speaking, but it has STAB Ice Shard at least.
Scarf Jolteon: Again, HP Ice. But really, Jolteon has no business running a Choice Scarf.
Scarf Aerodactyl: Same as above. It is in an even worse predicament than Jolteon, as its STAB isn't as good an offensive type as Jolteon's, and it has lower attack as it is.
Mamoswine: Great choice. Decent bulk, STAB Ice Shard, etc.
ScarfCune: Is quite limited, honestly. It sacrifices its bulk (and thus ability to deal with other threats) for the speed to defeat MixMence. Not DDMence either, just MixMence. At least it can deal with DDGyara, I guess. Not that it couldn't do that just as effectively with a bulky set running HP Electric.
ScarfCress: One of the most specialized Cress sets if there ever was one. It becomes even bigger Pursuit bait, and it doesn't have the special attack or movepool to decently threaten to revenge anything else except maybe Infernape with Psychic. Note that ScarfJirachi, ScarfFlygon, and other base 100 scarfers are not reliable because they force a speed tie and will thus win only 50% of the time. CBScizor is not reliable because it fails to deal with physical bulky Roost versions, and the same is said of Luke and Meta (whose priority attacks can't even muster 50% on the normal DDset, and that assuming LO and CB, respectively).
Now, what do we notice about ScarfLatias, ScarfStar, ScarfGar, ScarfCress, ScarfJolt, Weavile, Scarf Aerodactyl, and Mamoswine? Scizor removes them all. Pursuit or Bullet Punch, you pick. And really, Max Atk CBScizor has a 33% chance to OHKO Aero as it switches out, thanks to Stealth Rock, while even SpD CBScizor has a slight chance to OHKO with Pursuit. So that's how you remove the checks / counters if you want Mence to sweep. So one of these 9 pokemon are on the field. Let's look at the list of pokemon that can take advantage of the situation to set up and then sweep:
SubCM Jirachi, with Flash Cannon + Thunderbolt, can set up on all of these pokemon, especially considering that they will have just used a Dragon, Ice, or Rock move to deal with it.
DDBabiriTar: With the special defense boost from SS, it can easily set up a DD to remove the majority of these pokemon from the picture. While it cannot set up on Weavile or Mamoswine, it has little difficulty with the other pokemon.
SDLuke: On all except for Weavile, Lucario can set up an SD and then sweep, using its resistances to Salamence's weaknesses.
SubPetayaEmpoleon: It has the bulk to deal with the majority of these pokemon's hits, especially when resisted. Sub, Agility, and sweep, that simply.
AgiliGross: Come in with the threat of its own Pursuit, Agility, then sweep. Again, easy.
So these checks are easily punishable. However, Salamence can be used in a larger chain of support, functioning as the key player by luring out these threats. When paired with a Pursuit user, such as Tyranitar or Scizor, the following threats can sweep freely:
SD / NP / MixNape, Scarf/Band Flygon, ScarfHeatran, Gyarados, Dragonite, Kingdra, LOStarmie, TGManaphy (in suspect).
When paired with Magnezone for the removal of Scizor, the following can sweep:
NPAzelf, PorygonZ, DDTar (without need of a Babiri Berry), LOGengar, CMLatias, LOStarmie.
We can see that with the addition of a single other pokemon, an entirely different range of threats can begin their own rampage. Therefore, Salamence has not only killed whatever the defender sacrificed to deal with it, but it has also lured in pokemon that can entirely halt the sweep of a completely new threat. If that 2-pronged version of support isn't enough to fit the support characteristic, I don't know what it.
This negatively affects the metagame because it makes the situation quite literally - use Salamence to break walls. Pack a pokemon to kill the 9 checks it has. Use pokemon that can sweep with those 9 pokemon removed. Steps 1, 2, and 3.
I didn't even have to read your post to understand you either 1) Can't play Pokemon or 2) Don't know the first thing about it. (Although, I did read quite a bit of it. Mostly the bolded parts.)
First thing I'll let you know. Pokemon isn't a 1v1 game. There aren't little matches where Salamence just plays one of those Pokemon. A combo of two defensive Pokemon may take on Salamence. It is a possibility that more than one Pokemon may be used in order to fend off threats !
Another thing that is wrong with what you're saying. "use Salamence to break walls. Pack a pokemon to kill the 9 checks it has. Use pokemon that can sweep with those 9 pokemon removed. Steps 1, 2, and 3." Alright. Let's put it in other terms.
Use Infernape to break walls. Pack a Pokemon to kill one of the checks it has. ( I don't even get that part, why are you packing counters to checks of the Pokemon that is wall breaking and not the one who is sweeping?) Use a Pokemon that can sweep with those checks removed.
Using arguments of " X does this, Y follows up with this, X finishes this" aren't proving anything except you are lacking the ability to provide a sound argument. I just put in an example there. You can sub in any wall breaker and any sweeper and you have that exact same situation. I don't get what you're trying to say. Salamence is a good wallbreaker so it fits under the category of Support?
Let me go with this, then. Gengar can run a set of Shadow Ball, HP Ice, Focus Blast and Thunderbolt. This hits most Pokemon in OU for super effective damage/a large amount of damage due to Gengars base 130 Special Attack. We can use this to weaken Pokemon so that our sweeper, say Lucario, can sweep easier. Are we going to nominate it because of the Support Characteristic? I don't think we are.
The same even applies to Dragonite. Dragonite can run a mixed set and hit hard, making it easier for our sweeper to sweep. I have yet to see anyone post that it should be considered for the Suspect Test due to the Support Characteristic. If we see Salamence go for that Characteristic, I want to see a whole batch of other Pokemon go with it.
Then one thing to consider is how much damage a Pokemon can do before you figure out its set. Salamence has the possibility to Draco Meteor right off the bat, putting a massive dent in anything beside Steel types or Blissey - and even many steels take a fair chunk from it (from a Mixmence, Scarf Heatran takes about half damage, and Specially Defensive Skarm takes 40-50%)
I think Bronzong is a good switch in for any Salamence. Standard Wall isn't OHKOd by anything, except maybe a high-roll Specs Fire Blast. If it Danced on the switch, Gyro Ball to give it less than 10% health. If it Outraged or Draco Meteored, it can't hurt you, so Gyro Ball it to death or it switches. If it Earthquaked, you may be best exploding, since you'll only survive one Fire Blast.
Lucario has the ability to Aura Sphere or Close Combat.
Infernape has the ability to U-turn or Flare Blitz.
Dragonite has the ability to Draco Meteor or SuperPower.
Tyranitar has the ability to Ice Beam or Substitute (which will fuck you over, although maybe not on the first switch-in)
Metagross has the ability to Shadow Ball or Grass Knot.
Jirachi has the ability to do a hell of a lot of things.
All of these Pokemon can do a large amount of damage before you figure out their set, possibly even making it impossible for you to come back and win the match. They can all use powerful moves to beat initial switch-ins, which all can be used on viable sets. Salamence is just another of these kind of Pokemon, hitting hard whatever you switch in with moves you may not expect.
And you say I can't play pokemon? I really don't want to make this personal, as the attacks get in the way of the substance, but if you don't read the post, you really aren't going to be able to respond to the main point of it. Which is: Salamence has few reliable checks, the majority of which can be removed by the use of a single strategy (most notably, Pursuit ruins the first 7, and something like Scizor can Pursue and also use BP to kill Weavile / Mamo).
Name another pokemon to whom this applies - I've already shown you that such is not the case with Infernape, and Gengar doesn't have nearly the offensive presence required to reach Mence status.
This is not true. U-Turn is useless on boosting Nape (whether it be special or physical), both of which are more destructive than a 4-attack set. Dragonite's mixed set is about equal to its DDset, so that's a fair one. However, I'd like for you to tell me how a Tyranitar with Ice Beam is more threatening to the team than a DD or CBTar - it works to remove Gliscor and maybe Hippowdon...and then it stops there. Metagross running any special attack is significantly less threatening - it has enough issues with a steel STAB, but when you weaken its excellent attack to fuel its average SpA it gets even more problematic. Jirachi is good all around.
All of the sets are viable, yes, but are they equally as effective? No. The answer to this question is different for Mence.
ATTENTION PLEASE.
For those of you who took note of this post I made previously, please note that the following information was incorrect, I REPEAT, WAS INCORRECT:
I am unsure as to why exactly this is, but when I rechecked Dragontamers Attack and Defense Tiers and did calculations with both Smogon's new sexy calculator as well as Metalkid's, both indicated that the math was off, and that Pokemon as far down as Mamoswine (with 252/252 spread) could survive a Attack+ Nature'd Life Orb +1 Outrage from full health. It also revealed to me that Pokemon higher marked on the Defense Tier listing could survive attacks less sometimes than those lower, albeit a minor difference. The example of this is having Drapion (121.77) survive with 99.4% remaining health while Mamoswine (121.78) survives with 99.8% health. The only explanation I can give is that Dragontamer may have rounded the numbers incorrectly when applying the logarithm to the Tiers for each individual Pokemon, but I am too tired at the moment to clarify this.
In either case, the list I provided is False, and very importantly so. However, the calculations I provided for the Steel types are correct.
On another, unrelated note, some of the arguments in this thread have made me face palm on a few instances. I'll argue on once I get some proper sleep and the whole Christmas thing blows over. Merry Christmas, Smogon.
For those of you who took note of this post I made previously, please note that the following information was incorrect, I REPEAT, WAS INCORRECT:
I am unsure as to why exactly this is, but when I rechecked Dragontamers Attack and Defense Tiers and did calculations with both Smogon's new sexy calculator as well as Metalkid's, both indicated that the math was off, and that Pokemon as far down as Mamoswine (with 252/252 spread) could survive a Attack+ Nature'd Life Orb +1 Outrage from full health. It also revealed to me that Pokemon higher marked on the Defense Tier listing could survive attacks less sometimes than those lower, albeit a minor difference. The example of this is having Drapion (121.77) survive with 99.4% remaining health while Mamoswine (121.78) survives with 99.8% health. The only explanation I can give is that Dragontamer may have rounded the numbers incorrectly when applying the logarithm to the Tiers for each individual Pokemon, but I am too tired at the moment to clarify this.
In either case, the list I provided is False, and very importantly so. However, the calculations I provided for the Steel types are correct.
On another, unrelated note, some of the arguments in this thread have made me face palm on a few instances. I'll argue on once I get some proper sleep and the whole Christmas thing blows over. Merry Christmas, Smogon.
Oh, I read the post. I'm just saying before this post, most of what you said indicated you hadn't played Pokemon or lacked knowledge of the game. Your last post? Proves me wrong.
Alright, time to delve into copying, pasting, and quote tags.
Well, let's see then. We've got cool defensive combinations of Steel- and Water-types, don't forget Ground- and Water-types too! Combos of these types work well. Don't forget Mence needs to predict as well. Steel-types can come in on Draco Meteors/Outrage and the like. You don't win by spamming attacks, or we would have called this thing Uber a year ago when we got it. Hmm. I can't name any off the top of my head though. But really, they don't have to deal with Mence, they have to wear it down or force it out. Offensive Pokemon such as Jirachi can play defense if they can bluff a scarf (Or have a scarf), Scizor can threaten with Bullet Punch, etc. Offense is a good form of defense, especially when it looks threatening.
Larger Variety of checks. Bulky Waters? Only if they're light. Blastoise, Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, and Swampert are all taking a nice 80 BP Super Effective Grass Knot. Suicune takes 100. Slowking running a special wall set is the only one of those that doesn't take a hefty amount. Tentacruel and Vaporeon are the only ones I see from Bulky Waters. Even then, there is a possibility Vaporeon will be 2KHOd by Close Combat. Bulky Grounds? Again, they're all hit hard by Grass Knot. Hippowdon, Donphan, Swampert, maybe Gliscor? Hippo having 120, Donphan 100, and Swampert 80(technically 160) and Gliscor hit by HP Ice. This is the MixApe. It breaks walls, just like those.
Also, what checks are pursuit weak? Gengar. Latias. Starmie. What about Scizor? Other scarf base 100s like Jirachi or Flygon? Why can't a scarfed Zapdos do the job? How about Lucario, maybe? I don't get why you've narrowed your list down to five Pokemon (three pursuit weak) when all of these Pokemon should be able to do the same job.
When was MixNape commonly physical? I'd say most run Specially Mixed, especially since the top 5 moves are Close Combat, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, HP Ice, and Flamethrower. And why is it okay when the checks for Infernape are pursuit weak, but when they are for Mence it's not?
What supporting move is Salamence carrying :s Also, what do defenses matter when comparing how offensively powerful something is? Gengar even resists some priority moves (Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Extremespeed). Anyway, you missed my point there. I was saying it can weaken walls (especially in our physical metagame) to make it easier for our sweeper to sweep.
You made the points that it has a harder time sweeping or something. It isn't sweeping, it's weakening Pokemon to make it easier for our sweeper to sweep. So what if it's pursuit weak? Scizor or Tyranitar are going to get it? CBTar is still going down to Focus Blast, meaning you can stop it with Scizor or Blissey. With two Pokemon to stop it, it's still going to get it's job done most of the time, which is weakening opposing Pokemon to make it easier for the sweeper to sweep. Even if all you did was knock a wall or two down to 60 - 50% HP, you've made it easier for your sweeper to sweep, especially if it you turned a 3HKO into a 2HKO or a 2KHO into a OHKO. That's what Salamence does, as far as I can tell, to fit into the Support Characteristic.
I think you've really gone and mixed up Sweeper with WallBreaker.
Those are straight off of Smogon. Wall Breakers aren't speedy, they don't need to be. All they do is hit shit into the dust with ridiculously powerful attacks. Draco Meteor, Superpower, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, even Extremespeed or Dragon Claw, all hit things very hard. SuperPower nets OHKOs that Salamence misses out on because it must use Brick Break or be forced to use Outrage. And Salamence doesn't break physical walls like Hippowdon because it got an attack boost. If a combo of Intimidate is used, it's even harder to deal with them. Look at that, ability + Pokemon. Another combination that seems to help deal with Salamence. Interesting.
Name another Pokemon to which that has few reliable checks that can be eliminated through a single strategy. Well, why don't we look at the team building process. You pick a sweeper, then you look at it's checks or counters, then you come up with a strategy to beat them so it can sweep. That's how you build a balanced team. Strategies to beat counters and checks are used so that your sweeper can sweep, and Salamence is no different. It requires supporting Pokemon to eliminate it's counters and checks so that it can sweep.
The last thing in your post addressed my response to cantab. I believe the point he made in his post was that Salamence can do a lot of damage before you figure out it's set. Every attack I listed on those Pokemon will do a lot of damage before you figure out it's set. Switch in to take a Crunch from Tyranitar and meet Ice Beam? There goes 1 Pokemon from your whole team, which may screw up your strategy. Lucario used Aura Sphere when you switched in Hippowdon? That sucks, you just lost a Pokemon that may have been pivotal in your success. Infernape used U-turn when you thought Latias or Starmie could handle it? Damn, a Pokemon gone.
The same thing happens with Salamence. You may expect Dragon Dance and be met with Draco Meteor. You may expect Draco Meteor and be met with Hydro Pump.
Let me finish by addressing your point where you said Salamence can run a lot of sets equally effective. ChoiceMence of any variety isn't as effective as other Mence like DD and Mix because of the fact it can't change attacks and it becomes more of a hit and run Pokemon, which isn't good for an SR weak Pokemon, especially when it isn't running recovery. BulkyMence and FatMence? You aren't even wall breaking at that point. You're like trying to wall and break walls at the same time. They're viable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's equally as effective as the DD or Mix sets.
I'm just reposting this because it goes beyond being a list, and also states the effects I'd hope it would have on the metagame. Also because everyone is ignoring it, and focusing on my brief short posts when they're just that; brief short posts.
The other point I'd like to make is that I believe my calculations are ever so slightly off, I used Life Orb as x1.1, not x1.3, when making the Excel sheet I used to make them. Those calcs actually make Salamence look slightly weaker than he really is.
Now that I think about it, I reckon New Mixmence can safely just use Draco Meteor though. Very few things won't take a big chunk from it. Most of those that resist it are grounded steels, so you just follow up with an Earthquake if you think they're not scarfed.
Skarmory is handled by Draco Meteor followed by Fire Blast (even off the -2 special).
Levitate Bronzong will be alive after DM followed by Fire Blast, and then has about a 50% chance of killing Salamence with Gyro Ball outside of sandstorm (or it might Explode to be certain). Even so, Salamence will put a huge dent in Bronzong, which usually lacks any recovery besides Leftovers.
If I'm correct, then the New Mixmence player doesn't need to use any prediction. They just Draco Meteor as their opponent switches, and then Earthquake, Fire Blast, or switch out as appropriate.
Skarmory is handled by Draco Meteor followed by Fire Blast (even off the -2 special).
Levitate Bronzong will be alive after DM followed by Fire Blast, and then has about a 50% chance of killing Salamence with Gyro Ball outside of sandstorm (or it might Explode to be certain). Even so, Salamence will put a huge dent in Bronzong, which usually lacks any recovery besides Leftovers.
If I'm correct, then the New Mixmence player doesn't need to use any prediction. They just Draco Meteor as their opponent switches, and then Earthquake, Fire Blast, or switch out as appropriate.
Let me post my list. Here is Dragonite (Outrage/Fire Punch/Dragon Dance/Earthquake with LO), after one free turn and getting a DD !
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
That's 32 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Dragonite having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 32 OU Pokemon a single Dragonite set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 68% of the OU metagame! Never mind the majority of the metagame, that's the super majority of the metagame. (Where did you come up with 68 anyway? I got 62%)
Let me post another. Here is Tyranitar (Fire Punch/Stone Edge/Dragon Dance/Crunch with Lefties), after one free turn and getting a DD !
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
That's 30 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Tyranitar having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 30 OU Pokemon a single Tyranitar set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 59% of the OU metagame! That's nearly a super majority!
Let me post another. Here is Gyarados (Waterfall/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Stone Edge and Life Orb), after one free turn and getting a DD !
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
That's 26 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Gyarados having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 26 OU Pokemon a single Gyarados set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 51% of the OU metagame! That's a majority of the metagame!
Three other DD Sweepers. One capable of the exact same OHKOs, another only 2 Pokemon short (with Leftovers, mind you!), the last one 6 short. So what if Salamence can OHKO all those Pokemon? These guys can OHKO most of them too. So what if Salamence does it all with one move (that arguably won't help him sweep because he'll become confused)? They can all do it, two of them can switch moves as well. Outrage forces Salamence into using it, meaning a resist or a Pokemon not OHKOd can come in. Yes, a trade off in Pokemon. It happens in almost every match, no different with Salamence.
Now then, what do we notice with most of these Pokemon? A lot of them are handled by Scizor? Let's see...and most of them have paper thin defenses? Is that so?! No wonder Scizor can handle them with a 591 Attack 90 base power priority move! But not Empoleon, Heatran, Magnezone, Forretress, Gyarados, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Tentacruel, Kingdra, and Vaporeon ! Oh wait, he can deal with Magnezone and Heatran through SuperPower? Well in a land where prediction is perfect, he sure as hell can. But Scizor doesn't go around using Superpower often for a reason. It's not a good choice of move to use when you don't know what's coming. U-turn and Bullet Punch are both safer options. Scizor can deal with the ones lacking defense, sure. So can Infernape or even Latias. In fact, both of those can take care of about the same number as Scizor. My point? Scizor has nothing to do with helping Salamence sweep. Any strategy of using a strong Pokemon to eliminate a weak one can be used.
You mention without support, Salamence is guaranteed one kill. I think I've demonstrated that a lot of Pokemon are guaranteed one kill per game, even without support. But unfortunately, that's not how the Offensive Characteristic for an Uber works. It's not "Can it take out one Pokemon per game". The trait states:
That was even at the top of your post, I don't know why you thought that getting one kill made Salamence Uber. You mention using Metagross and Scizor as back up to eliminate Salamence's counters/checks isn't even building a team? You damned well just built a team around Salamence. You already used up 3 out of 6 (that's 1/2 of your team) Pokemon just for a Salamence sweep. That's support.
Try again next time. Your theorymon, I won't address, due to the fact I don't give a shit what a metagame is like without a Pokemon when it doesn't deserve to not be in the metagame. Actually you know what, I see something that catches my eye.
Powerful Steel-type walls are used for a reason. The steel-typing itself has 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Why wouldn't you use such good defensive typing? As far back as I know of, steel types have been used for walling and doing other jobs while taking advantage of resistances. I doubt that they'll go away because a Pokemon they can sometimes switch in on goes away. In fact, they'll probably become more prevalent. If a threat to them goes away (and it is a threat because of Fire Blast and Earthquake), why would they decline? Because another Pokemon takes Salamence's spot, with even less attack and (possibly) special attack? I don't understand that one.
Doesn't need to use prediction? That's ridiculous. What if they Draco Meteor right into the hands of the opponent, as the opponent sends in their death fodder so that they can get in Bronzong to not take the full Fire Blast? What if the opponent sends in a scarfed heatran to absorb a Fire Blast? What if Blissey comes in on Draco Meteor and then they switch to a Levitator or Flier (e.g. Latias or Bronzong) to absorb the Earthquake? Why would they not have to use prediction? It isn't the beginning of the game every time you use theorymon. All Pokemon don't have 100% health and the chance to mess up once or twice. If the Salamence user mispredicts, it could cost him Salamence. It's hard to put into words, but I think you get the idea. If spamming Draco Meteor would make it easy to win with Salamence, then it would have been banned a long time ago, closer to when we first got him.
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
Code:
Pokémon Attack Min% Max%
Flygon Outrage 341.7% - 402% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Latias Outrage 279.9% - 330.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Salamence Outrage 230.8% - 272.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Kingdra Outrage 307.9% - 362.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Smeargle Outrage 237.3% - 279.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Dragonite Outrage 236.4% - 278.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Ninjask Outrage 302.7% - 356.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Roserade Outrage 264.5% - 311.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Gengar Outrage 246.4% - 290% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Jolteon Outrage 237.3% - 279.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Weavile Outrage 209.3% - 246.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Electivire Outrage 226.8% - 267% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Aerodactyl Outrage 201.7% - 237.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Tentacruel Outrage 141.8% - 166.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Breloom Outrage 189% - 222.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Azelf Outrage 197.3% - 232.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Blissey Outrage 130.4% - 153.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Infernape Outrage 193.9% - 228.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Starmie Outrage 140.3% - 165.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Porygon-Z Outrage 183.3% - 216.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Heracross Outrage 179.7% - 211.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Rotom-A Outrage 103.6% - 122.4% (Guarnateed OHKO)
Gyarados Outrage 83.8% - 98.9% (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock)
Vaporeon Outrage 94% - 110.7% (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock)
Zapdos Outrage 91.1% - 107.6% (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock)
Togekiss Outrage 143.7% - 169.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Forretress Fire Punch 124.3% - 146.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Scizor Fire Punch 208.7% - 246.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Magnezone Earthquake 299.3% - 353.2% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Heatran Earthquake 279.9% - 330.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Lucario Earthquake 225.6% - 266.2% (Guarunteed OHKO)
Empoleon Earthquake 167.3% - 197.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)That's 32 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Dragonite having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 32 OU Pokemon a single Dragonite set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 68% of the OU metagame! Never mind the majority of the metagame, that's the super majority of the metagame. (Where did you come up with 68 anyway? I got 62%)
Let me post another. Here is Tyranitar (Fire Punch/Stone Edge/Dragon Dance/Crunch with Lefties), after one free turn and getting a DD !
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
Code:
Pokémon Attack Min% Max%
Flygon Crunch 87.7% - 103.6% (Chance for OHKO with SR)
Latias Crunch 144.1% - 170% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Salamence Stone Edge 148.6% - 175.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Kingdra Stone Edge 99% - 116.5% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR/SS)
Smeargle Crunch 121.8% - 144% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Dragonite Crunch 70.9% - 83.9% (OHKO with SR/SS)
Dragonite Stone Edge 178.3% - 209.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Ninjask Crunch 134.2% - 158.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Roserade Crunch 136.3% - 160.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Gengar Crunch 253.6% - 298.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Jolteon Crunch 122.1% - 143.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Weavile Fire Punch 134.7% - 158.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Electivire Crunch 116.5% - 137.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Aerodactyl Crunch 103.6% - 122.2% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Tentacruel Stone Edge 90.9% - 107.1% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)
Breloom Fire Punch 121.6% - 143.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Azelf Crunch 202.7% - 239.2% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Blissey Crunch 83.6% - 98.6% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR/SS)
Infernape Stone Edge 124.2% - 146.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Starmie Crunch 143.1% - 169.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Porygon-Z Crunch 94.5% - 111.3% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)
Heracross Stone Edge 115.6% - 135.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Rotom-A Crunch 106.6% - 126.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Gyarados Stone Edge 107.6% - 127% (Guaratneed OHKO)
Vaporeon Crunch 60.5% - 71.2% (2HKO)
Zapdos Stone Edge 117.5% - 138.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Togekiss Stone Edge 183.9% - 216.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Forretress Fire Punch 96% - 113% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)
Scizor Fire Punch 160.9% - 190.1% (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)
Magnezone Fire Punch 87.2% - 102.8% (Chance for OHKO with SR)
Heatran Stone Edge 81.1% - 95.7% (Chance for a OHKO with SR)
Lucario Fire Punch 130.2% - 153.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Empoleon Fire Punch 48.1% - 57.1% (2HKO)That's 30 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Tyranitar having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 30 OU Pokemon a single Tyranitar set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 59% of the OU metagame! That's nearly a super majority!
Let me post another. Here is Gyarados (Waterfall/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Stone Edge and Life Orb), after one free turn and getting a DD !
(All of these calculations assume the most common set, as I'm too lazy to put in 252 / 252 and it doesn't prove anything anyway. Also used with the new Smogon Calculator ^_^)
Code:
Pokémon Attack Min% Max%
Flygon Waterfall 108.3% - 127.5% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Latias Stone Edge 74.5% - 87.7% (2HKO) (Chance for OHKO on offensive variants)
Salamence Stone Edge 122.7% - 144.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Kingdra Earthquake 81.4% - 95.9% (Chance for a OHKO)
Smeargle Waterfall 151.2% - 177.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Dragonite Stone Edge 146.7% - 172.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Ninjask Waterfall 166.1% - 195.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Roserade Earthquake 139.7% - 164.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Gengar Waterfall 156.3% - 184.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Jolteon Earthquake 250.9% - 295.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Weavile Waterfall 133% - 156.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Electivire Earthquake 240.5% - 283.2% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Aerodactyl Waterfall 256.3% - 302% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Tentacruel Earthquake 150% - 176.9% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Breloom Stone Edge 49.8% - 59% (2KHO)
Azelf Waterfall 125.1% - 147.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Blissey Waterfall 82.6% - 97.4% (Chance for OHKO)
Infernape Waterfall 245.7% - 289.4% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Starmie Earthquake 73.9% - 87.1% (2HKO)
Porygon-Z Waterfall 116.1% - 137% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Heracross Waterfall 114% - 134.6% (Guaratneed OHKO)
Rotom-A Waterfall 66.1% - 78% (2HKO)
Gyarados Stone Edge 88.6% - 104.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Vaporeon Earthquake 49.6% - 58.5% (2HKO)
Zapdos Stone Edge 96.6% - 113.8% (OHKO with SR)
Togekiss Stone Edge 151.8% - 178.8% (OHKO)
Forretress Waterfall 46.9% - 55.4% (2HKO)
Scizor Waterfall 79% - 93.6% (Chance for OHKO)
Magnezone Earthquake 248.1% - 292.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Heatran Earthquake 266.3% - 314.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Lucario Earthquake 214.9% - 253.4% (Guaratneed OHKO)
Empoleon Earthquake 159.6% - 187.8% (Guaranteed OHKO)That's 26 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Gyarados having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKOd!
That makes 26 OU Pokemon a single Gyarados set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 51% of the OU metagame! That's a majority of the metagame!
Three other DD Sweepers. One capable of the exact same OHKOs, another only 2 Pokemon short (with Leftovers, mind you!), the last one 6 short. So what if Salamence can OHKO all those Pokemon? These guys can OHKO most of them too. So what if Salamence does it all with one move (that arguably won't help him sweep because he'll become confused)? They can all do it, two of them can switch moves as well. Outrage forces Salamence into using it, meaning a resist or a Pokemon not OHKOd can come in. Yes, a trade off in Pokemon. It happens in almost every match, no different with Salamence.
Now then, what do we notice with most of these Pokemon? A lot of them are handled by Scizor? Let's see...and most of them have paper thin defenses? Is that so?! No wonder Scizor can handle them with a 591 Attack 90 base power priority move! But not Empoleon, Heatran, Magnezone, Forretress, Gyarados, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Tentacruel, Kingdra, and Vaporeon ! Oh wait, he can deal with Magnezone and Heatran through SuperPower? Well in a land where prediction is perfect, he sure as hell can. But Scizor doesn't go around using Superpower often for a reason. It's not a good choice of move to use when you don't know what's coming. U-turn and Bullet Punch are both safer options. Scizor can deal with the ones lacking defense, sure. So can Infernape or even Latias. In fact, both of those can take care of about the same number as Scizor. My point? Scizor has nothing to do with helping Salamence sweep. Any strategy of using a strong Pokemon to eliminate a weak one can be used.
You mention without support, Salamence is guaranteed one kill. I think I've demonstrated that a lot of Pokemon are guaranteed one kill per game, even without support. But unfortunately, that's not how the Offensive Characteristic for an Uber works. It's not "Can it take out one Pokemon per game". The trait states:
That was even at the top of your post, I don't know why you thought that getting one kill made Salamence Uber. You mention using Metagross and Scizor as back up to eliminate Salamence's counters/checks isn't even building a team? You damned well just built a team around Salamence. You already used up 3 out of 6 (that's 1/2 of your team) Pokemon just for a Salamence sweep. That's support.
Try again next time. Your theorymon, I won't address, due to the fact I don't give a shit what a metagame is like without a Pokemon when it doesn't deserve to not be in the metagame. Actually you know what, I see something that catches my eye.
Powerful Steel-type walls are used for a reason. The steel-typing itself has 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Why wouldn't you use such good defensive typing? As far back as I know of, steel types have been used for walling and doing other jobs while taking advantage of resistances. I doubt that they'll go away because a Pokemon they can sometimes switch in on goes away. In fact, they'll probably become more prevalent. If a threat to them goes away (and it is a threat because of Fire Blast and Earthquake), why would they decline? Because another Pokemon takes Salamence's spot, with even less attack and (possibly) special attack? I don't understand that one.
Doesn't need to use prediction? That's ridiculous. What if they Draco Meteor right into the hands of the opponent, as the opponent sends in their death fodder so that they can get in Bronzong to not take the full Fire Blast? What if the opponent sends in a scarfed heatran to absorb a Fire Blast? What if Blissey comes in on Draco Meteor and then they switch to a Levitator or Flier (e.g. Latias or Bronzong) to absorb the Earthquake? Why would they not have to use prediction? It isn't the beginning of the game every time you use theorymon. All Pokemon don't have 100% health and the chance to mess up once or twice. If the Salamence user mispredicts, it could cost him Salamence. It's hard to put into words, but I think you get the idea. If spamming Draco Meteor would make it easy to win with Salamence, then it would have been banned a long time ago, closer to when we first got him.
You make some valid points, but I think that everyone in this thread realizes what both of us are saying. That's why I want a suspect test, to determine exactly how Mence affects the metagame.
- Status