Pokemon Black & White, aka Gen 5. Coming to Japan in Fall 2010.

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New entry hazards, especially the status inducing ones, has been long discussed.

To really maintain the balance, we're going to need more Rapid Spinners, and probably an alternative to Rapid Spin (ie; Defog actually removing hazards from the USERS side). We have very few options right now.

I'm hoping for another 'upheaval' of the titles, and not just additional moves/hazards. It might go against what we cherish as a metagame of numbers and percentages, but I think have battles as more of a chess match/tactics game '32x32 battle fields, fast Pokemon move more tiles in one turn, etc', would be a fantastic move for a main game in the series.

If, as many have assumed, it's possible that this generation could introduce 3D battles to the handheld games, then the possibilities suddenly are endless! Here's a few ideas:

First off, there's the possibility that Speed may become an even MORE powerful stat. If battles take place in real-time, it might be impossible to predict what might happen, as the abilities of Pokemon will suddenly matter much less, as mobility will take the forefront. In other words, the Pokemon that most effortlessly traverse the map and avoid attacks (or just carpet bomb the battlefield) would be the dominant types. An example of a game somewhat like this would be Nintendo's Custom Robo games. And obviously, if the battlefield takes a turn for the tactical (like EvilMario suggested), 6vs6 battles could easily turn into TRUE 6vs6 combat, instead of a party of 6 fighting one or two at a time.

edit: Check out BoyBoy's post above for possible balance issues!

Or perhaps that's too extreme for the DS, hmm? Too much processing power and memory. Okay then, what about something closer to Final Fantasy's Active Time Battle System: each Pokemon has a "gauge" that fills up faster as the Speed stat grows. This would allow, say, extremely fast Pokemon like Jolteon to attack twice as often as Pokemon like Golem. Now, in the world of Pokemon, where battles are decided so quickly, perhaps this system would not be ideal. Slow Pokemon would essentially become obsolete in some cases. For instance, what's the point in having huge defenses like Shuckle if Aerodactyl can attack you 3-4 times before you even move, etc.? But that's not to say something LIKE that could be balanced out for the Pokemon world.

But, if they're going to allow you to at least TRADE with Gen 4 at some point (likely), then any drastic battle system changes need to make sense in the context of the stat system we currently have. Thus, I'm not expecting any drastic changes beyond what we are used to: new attacks, abilities and Pokemon will alter the balance while ONE OR TWO new aspects (hold item, ability, physical/special) will redefine how our games are played. It's hard to pin down possibilities for things on par with hold items, abilities or physical/special moves, as such things are so multi-dimensional. The best thing to do would be to look to other RPGs or games with RPG elements.

One possibility might be to introduce the long-debated "combination system," where breeding (or a Monster Rancher-type ceremony) can be used to DRASTICALLY alter the stats of your Pokemon by taking an aspect of one Pokemon and combining it with another, instead of merely passing on natures, IVs and moves. Such a system would either expand the current breeding system or even run congruent with it, achieving somewhat similar results, with the focus shifting slightly from a long, arduous process and more towards a faster, more practical system. However, like with Monster Rancher, the presence of "Luck" in the process would undoubtedly keep it from becoming too surefire.

Returning back to the 3D aspect for a bit, perhaps a greater emphasis on the Battlefield will change how we plot our strategy? Attacks like Earthquake, Surf, Lava Plume or even Explosion could alter how some Pokemon interact with the battlefield, possibly adding offensive and defensive options for both battlers. Perhaps now, like in a tactical RPG, it would become even more important to think ahead a few turns before you make your move, as a move's AFTEREFFECT could directly affect your opponent's next turn AND your own! Imagine this:

You are fighting on an arid grassland. You are using Ninetales, and your opponent is using Vileplume. You COULD go for the kill directly with Flamethrower, but doing so will ignite the surrounding landscape, making it dangerous for you to switch in your Pinsir later on!

Such a change would open up a whole new sense of team synergy. Now it would become important not only to pick Pokemon that work together based on typing and role, but also on the types of moves they use as well. Whole strategies could be plotted on keeping certain "field effects" rolling throughout the battle... and old field effects like Gravity or Rain Dance wouldn't become obsolete. Instead, they could be enhanced or even countered by certain other kinds of field effects. Such a change would force a much, MUCH greater emphasis on team strategy instead of filling roles or boosting a generic sweeper.
 
Some way to improve gameplay would be nice, after 4 games of pretty much the same game coming out (When looked at by the uncompetitive player), i think they need something fresh.

I don't really think this will happen because of the tried-and-true formula that makes a Pokemon great. Not only that, but I don't really think it needs to change. I think the way ingame is played is fantastic (especially in newer games like Platinum and HGSS). Adding little things that add freshness such as the Sevii Islands in FRLG and a lot of backstory in HGSS make the game v. cool and fun.

Another thing that (I believe) Aldaron brought up on IRC is a 2 on 1 Pokemon battle (I don't think that has been brought up here). That is very possible and it'd be easy to implement in the game I think -- much easier than a 32x32 battlefield and other systems like that. 2 on 1 is a "plausible" way for a Team Rocket battle to happen as they're criminals, obviously they wouldn't play by the rules. 2 on 1 would definitely add freshness and a huge new level of difficulty depending on exactly how they implemented it.
 
they would be fakes for the picture of them battling looks the same as 4th gen.

also, if they were real, why wouldn't the link go to the offical nintendo website instead of imageshack?
 
I am not too sure if this is the real thing as I have a huge doubt they would actually release the two pokemons before the actual movie comes out but these look TOO real. However, the problem may be that it seems like the game looks REALLY similar the gen 4 and HGSS's battling mechanism. It's either these are real or are just fakes that were nicely made.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7638/12651555870935925535.jpg

If my Japanese was better, I'd be able to tell you straight away if this is legit... but something about it definitely seems fishy. I don't trust it at all.

edit: other communities have confirmed this to be FAKE.
 
Multiple forms of Stealth Rock seems like it would be terribly broken. For example, charizard would take 50% from Stealth Rock and 25% from Stealth Water/Electric/etc. There would be a great chance that a majority of Pokemon would be OHKOed immediately upon switching into hazards. Currently, the worst that can happen is 75% + badly poisoned (assuming I've got my Gravity mechanics right). But that requires serious set up. Multiple forms of Toxic Spikes would be mch less broken IMO, although they would still be a bit much. If GF creates new hazards, they had better give us some really good Rapid Spin and Taunt users, as well as new ways to soak the hazards up.

A thought that has crossed my mind is 4th to 5th gen trading. It's been discussed before, but as far as I know, my idea hasn't. Trading between the two gens will require more than one DS anyway, (unless the GTS system is multi-gen, as has been mentioned) so why couldn't there be some sort of wireless Pal Park system, where both games are started and the 5th gen game can read the 4th gen game's data and select x number of Pokemon to migrate? I think it could work, but I don't know how it would be initiated. I really hope pokemon can be transfered somehow, I don't want all my hard work in RSE/DPP to become obsolete!
 
Evolutions for both of the useless birds would be to much to hope for. (And the Farfetch'd one looks Spectacular) Even though it is assumed fake for the time beeing it would make an interesting read if translated. Would anyone happen to have the original source of that image?

Also 1v2 could make for a much more difficult story mode which I would be interested in seeing. I doubt it would get much intrest Competitively though.
 
I think multiple forms of Stealth Rock is possible ... but I think to keep it balanced, only one form of Stealth can be used at a time.

Stealth Icicle for massive use (lets see, 50% to Garchomp, Rayquaza, Salamence, Dragonite, Shaymin-s, and 25% to a hell of a lot of top threats in OU and Uber)
 
About entry hazards. I would think a simple way to introduce more and make them not overpowered would be having them activate ONCE and then disappear. Think of what happens when a Poison-grounded Pokemon switches in on TS, except the entry has an effect. This obviously wouldn't work with many of the tried+true hazards, but could allow many otherwise broken entry hazards (Stealth Will-o-Wisp) to be balanced. It would also allow increased mindgames: you lay down Stealth Spore with a Pokemon that has an advantage over your opponent's, and then predicting a switch into a Restalker (to absorb the one-shot Spore), switch to your Dream Eater. That's a really basic (and probably non-viable) example, but mindgames like that could become much more prevalent.

Of course, GF would almost certainly never do this, but it's an interesting thought.
 
I was thinking of some new attacks that will hopefully make some existing types useful and among other things:

-Poison is THE worst attacking move ever; even normal type attacks are superior due to the usefulness of Return and Fake Out for example. I'm not suggesting a change in the type effectiveness chart, but instead it should strengthen the usefulness of Toxic. I'm thinking of an attack with 5-10 PP, 50 BP, 70 accuracy, and inflicts Toxic upon contact. Any subsequent attacks that hit on a Pokemon inflicted with Toxic will increase the Toxic damage counter by 2. In addition, some currently existing poison attacks should inflict Toxic poison instead of regular poison, most notably Cross Poison and Sludge Bomb.

-What if Steel types got a physical equivalent of Charge Beam? Maybe call it Blade Dance? I don't know.

-Like I suggested earlier (but the post got deleted for some reason), an attacking move that inflicts the Taunt status upon contact. To make it less overpowering, give it low base power, 5-10 PP, and -1 priority to prevent regular Taunt from being obsolete. If needed, make it a Ghost-type move so that Normal types resist it.
 
I didn't want to respond to this, but I have to. That defeats the point of pokemon, and gamefreak would never do that. Some Pokemon would literally have no counters if that were the case
How would this be true? You'd still only have four moves per battle?

As far as other type-entry hazards go (as opposed to rock and ice.) Either fire to deal with steels or electric for waters. (Grass would hit water, ground and rock, but is resisted by so much...) Stealth Fire would finally bring Scizor's reign to an end.

Also, some people have suggested capping SR damage at 25%. That might actually hurt some of the 4x weak mons. I think Moltres might be stuck in BL if this were the case.

One thing I think they might add are moves that activate upon a Pokemon's switching in. Kind of like reverse-U-turn. They'd have to be low power, and probably a neglected type, like Poison or Grass.
 
Hm, I have a feeling 'inventive new ways to play' simply means a huge amount of new touch screen mechanics and nothing extremely new with how battles are played..
 
Maybe the 5th Gen, but however...

It may be the beginning of the 5th Gen, but , and I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this or not, its takes a lot to make a game...I know it said to be released in Japan in 2010, but I bet that's going to get pushed back. In order for both HG and SS to be released almost within the same year would mean that would have had to have been working on it while HG/SS was in the works, and I would think that they wouldn't want to split up their work force like that. And further more, they are looking for a 3D designer, which tells me they don't have the workforce to split like that. My opinion: It probably won't come out in 2010, regardless of if it is 5th gen or not.
 
If my Japanese was better, I'd be able to tell you straight away if this is legit... but something about it definitely seems fishy. I don't trust it at all.

edit: other communities have confirmed this to be FAKE.

Just reassuring what ANinyMouse said, look at the bottom of the page. "Nintondo", "Greatures", "Game Fleak". Yeah.
 
It may be the beginning of the 5th Gen, but , and I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this or not, its takes a lot to make a game...I know it said to be released in Japan in 2010, but I bet that's going to get pushed back. In order for both HG and SS to be released almost within the same year would mean that would have had to have been working on it while HG/SS was in the works, and I would think that they wouldn't want to split up their work force like that. And further more, they are looking for a 3D designer, which tells me they don't have the workforce to split like that. My opinion: It probably won't come out in 2010, regardless of if it is 5th gen or not.

Just because they haven't talked about it doesn't mean that they haven't been working on it. Ninendo seems to be taking a more cautious approach with revealing their games (as evidenced by the very little info we got until right before Spirit Tracks and New Super Mario Bros. Wii were released and the fact that there's absolutely no information on Zelda Wii right now).

On a side note, has a Pokemon game ever been delayed before? I don't think any of them have so if they say it'll be out in 2010, I believe them.
 
^Its also important to keep in mind that because HGSS are remakes, they didn't need to do nearly as much work as they did when generating the new games Diamond and Pearl; they merely needed to update Gold and Silver. It is definitely feasible that they did that as a side project along with these new games.
 
i'm not sure if this speculation have come up before, but just thinking about it makes me feel fuzzy inside:

# how about "Stealth Rock" clones for the other types?! it could be all types or only a selected few.. imagine how "Stealth Ice" can nerf Dragon-types (many are part Flying even).. maybe decrease the distribution of these moves including SR itself to prevent them having multiple stealth hazards (though i'm not sure if removal of a move from an old pokemon is precedented)

i know it might kill the metagame, but maybe the damage it does can also be changed? instead of losing 50% of HP switching a quad-weak poke, how about if it deals percent damage of remaining HP? that way scizor at half HP switching into "Stealth Flames" would lose half of its remaining HP, instead of fainting outright,,

just some thoughts..:)


EDIT: apparently it has come up, but maybe changing it so that it deals % damage of remaining HP and only lasting for 5 (or even 3) switches can make it balanced?
 
One thing that might be nice - better distribution of Spikes. My belief is that a major part of the reason Stealth Rock is the dominant entry hazard is because better things learn it. Give Jolteon, Crobat, and many other things Spikes and I think they would be a much more viable entry hazard on offensive teams, even if Stealth Rock remains more common.
 
I actually think rapid spin is a fundamentally bad answer to hazards, and thus its wider distribution is not the answer.

This is based on 2 basic principles of move functions:

(1) You have to be able to hit your opponent with it.

(2) It takes a turn to use.

The secondary point is the one of greater significance. Even if Rapid Spin operated like say, Reflect or Safeguard (honestly, what does missing my opponent have to do with blowing away spikes on the ground?), the fact is that it is still inherently inferior to entry hazards. This is mostly due to SR, and I'll explain why.

-Say first turn, I use Azelf to set up SR.
-5 switches later, you manage to rapid spin it away.

Result:
Me: I lost 1 turn.
You: You lost 1 turn and took 5 hits of SR damage.

Even though we both used 1 turn, you got hit with SR for all those turns, while I lost nothing except that 1 turn. You are taking a turn to fix something your opponent did in 1 turn, but you are not breaking even-- you're losing!

Paying to fix things when you don't break even is just bad investment!

Would you keep recovering if your opponent was smaking you for 60% every turn? HELL NO. That is essentially what you are doing when you rapid spin away SR.

Essentially, Rapid Spin only makes sense in the context of fighting against multiple layers of hazards-- but lets face it, most games you let your opponent get 2-3 layers of spikes up with SR, are games you are not likely to win just because you somehow manage to rapid spin. Essentially, even having rapid spin on the team is generally a bad investment.

The problem was less prevalent before SR, when it took 2-3 layers of spikes to really be intimidating and the cost of each turn to set them up was significant. In other words, only 1 layer of spikes was weak enough that ignoring it was fairly viable (you had to consider if 1 turn to spike was even worth it). With SR though, that 1 turn is definitely worth it, so much so that you almost have to consider rapid spin even though you're not breaking even. But because you can't break even, when considering the amount of damage SR can do with just 1 turn of set up, Rapid Spin becomes a pathetically bad move-- even if there were no ghosts.


So, what we really need, is a method of hazard removal that costs less than set up. What we need, is a pokemon that can remove hazards without taking a turn to remove them-- we need a pokemon that removes them on entry.


What I would like to see, is a pokemon with an ability that removes 1 layer on switch in (priority to SR, then removes Spikes if SR is not present). Frankly, because of grounded poisons (and Toxic Spike's overall suckiness), I think it'd be fine if that ability did not touch toxic spikes.

Removing only 1 Layer would basically fix the cost issue I mentioned, since this pokemon would be getting rid of SR for potentially cheaper then its set up. Like all things in pokemon, it would then come down to chance and strategy-- how many turns will it take me to switch it in? Instead of SR being instantly superior to rapid spin.

However, only being able to remove 1 layer and only by switching, would reward stacking spikes, as to get rid of them using that ability, you would have to waste turns making switches (and thus losing more life to the stacked spikes). Since most offensive teams would forego a true rapid spinner in favor of the entry absorber just to deal with SR, Stall Teams would actually be able to take extra turns to stack hazards without fear of seeing Rapid Spin blow them away too often.

Essentially, such a pokemon would balance SR while actually making pure stall (as opposed to "quick-stall") more viable.


Here would be my "proto-type."

Medusala
Water / Ground
Sprite: Sleek looking Sea-Slug, as opposed to a bulky one like Gastrodon

Ability: [Spine Eater] Absorbs hazards to increase its attack (upon switching in, this pokemon removes 1 layer of SR or Spikes with priority to SR, and increases its ATK by 1 stage).

HP: 95
ATK: 85
DEF: 85
Sp.ATK: 50
Sp.DEF: 75
Speed: 110

Such a poke doesn't need to be too powerful, but it should be be reasonably bulky with decent tanking type with few weaknesses. I gave my version good speed to be a "quick" support, since I image the ideal hazard absorber as something fairly quick on its feet. I also gave it the attack boosting ability because I felt that this pokemon should be weak most of the time, but be able to become a fair threat when it used to achieve its chief job of absorbing SR and punshing SR users.

(as an interesting note, I based my idea off of real sea slugs that eat sea jellies or anemone tentacles and absorb their prey's poison to be used as their own defense mechanism).
 
I think that a wider variety of rapid spin type moves wouls make it better. That way spin blocking isn't so effective. I would also boost the damage of rapid spin OR even better spin the hazards at the other poke. E.g it gets poisoned from a spun TS or takes rock damage from SR. If it was that idea then Rapid spin should have no set damage as it gains damage from the secondary effect.
 
What in the world does your ideas of 'what the metagame needs' have to do with what Game Freak is going to make? I'm sorry you spent so much time on your post but it is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand as they simply don't care what competitive pokemon "needs."
 
What in the world does your idea of 'what the metagame needs' have to do with what Game Freak is going to make? I'm sorry you spent so much time on your post but it is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand as they simply don't care what competitive pokemon "needs."

If this is directed at me (I'm just assuming because of the relative length of my post), I'll just point out that I didn't use the word "needs" anywhere (which makes putting quotes on that word pretty funny).

It's a children's RPG-- realistically, all the game needs is pokemon that will sell the franchise more.

I'm just pointing out what I would like to see, and what I think would make the competitive pokemon scene more interesting-- seeing as this is a forum about competitive pokemon.

I don't think anyone wants to talk about how cute/ugly the new normal/flying type will be.

If that wasn't directed at me, ignore.

I think that a wider variety of rapid spin type moves wouls make it better. That way spin blocking isn't so effective. I would also boost the damage of rapid spin OR even better spin the hazards at the other poke. E.g it gets poisoned from a spun TS or takes rock damage from SR. If it was that idea then Rapid spin should have no set damage as it gains damage from the secondary effect.

Again, to me distribution is not the issue-- rapid spin sucks because you lose a turn just to get rid of hazards. Ghosts or no, rapid spin sucks-- period.

I do agree that changing the type/damage output from rapid spin would change the situation. If Rapid Spin was suddenly a 60 base power Ice move coming from a [new] Technician Weavile, then yes-- I'd say that would be another story. :P
 
Or they'd change the mechanics of Roost.

Though actually, it would make sense to not have Roost. A pure Flying-type ought to be something that NEVER lands. Perhaps a Pokemon based on an albatross - it would need to be sufficiently different from Lugia mind. (And yes I know real albatrosses do land, but they are famed for long flights).
 
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