But Phil's OP stated the following:
Are we to disregard this or was there a misunderstanding?
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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But Phil's OP stated the following:
Are we to disregard this or was there a misunderstanding?
The fact remains, the Pokemon you nominate would be heavily based off of what is banned round 1. Since none of us know what that will be, speculating on that is pointless.
Plus, it kinda seems to me to go against the whole original ban list vote if we can unban Pokemon that were originally put on it so soon.
Plus, it kinda seems to me to go against the whole original ban list vote if we can unban Pokemon that were originally put on it so soon.
The 3-5 base point difference wouldn't matter if either Onono or Shandera were actually fast. In speed the closest we got to base 150 was Agurida at 145.
Cosmic Power Magic Coat set is a fucking riot. You sit there and watch your opponent not do shit to you, and you keep Pressure stalling their HP. No Taunt, no Roar, none of that shit. I'd use it quite a bit if I were any good with Stall lol. After we get the offensive suspects out of the picture, I'm looking forward to seeing what the Deoxys-D meta will look like.
Plus, as has already been brought up in this thread, Deoxys-N is practically always going to run a +Speed nature... meaning its offensive stats will actually be a bit lower than a Pokemon running a boosting nature on a Base 135 stat (399 compared to 405).
But from what it sounds like, both nominations (Uber --> OU and OU --> Uber) will be happening at the same time, which admittedly was made really unclear in the OP. As for your second paragraph, that's probably something you should talk to Phil about if it concerns you, since he did put it in the OP for a reason, so he probably intended us to at least somewhat discuss it.
It's really unfortunate that this set is hard-countered by Toxic Spikes (ie. Other stall teams), and Trick, which common choicers like Latios, Gengar, and Rotom-A formes can still carry. Although it seems like a nice set, it also seems like it needs lots of support to work.
Speaking of which, I can come right in on Tentacruel and set up. Good thinking.
Also, being a defensive Pokemon, it's naturally going to be harder to satisfy any degree of Uber characteristics a player might hold. Standard offense teams have a really, really hard time breaking Deoxys-D in general. Non-attack moves simply can't be relied on to beat him, since things like Substitute and Magic Coat, or even switching out annul them entirely.
Also, being a defensive Pokemon, it's naturally going to be harder to satisfy any degree of Uber characteristics a player might hold. Standard offense teams have a really, really hard time breaking Deoxys-D in general. Non-attack moves simply can't be relied on to beat him, since things like Substitute and Magic Coat, or even switching out annul them entirely.
But moving Pokémon from OU to Ubers is changing the original ban list too, right? And a Pokémon that was voted Uber doesn't necessarily have to be Uber. Not saying I'm disagreeing with the original ban list and the voters, but a Pokémon can be too underwhelming in Ubers, and just be good enough in OU, depending on what Pokémon stay there.
Magic Coat is the biggest reason why it is just so hard to counter. You cannot Taunt it, it has instant recovery, can just stall you for ages and ages with Pressure. I feel it should be suspect along with all the offensive big boys running around, like Skymin, Darkrai, and co.
I feel Deoxys-S and Deo-A can stay in OU, at least for the time being. It is not like Scarf pokes are all OHKO'd by ExtremeSpeed . Stuff like Genosekuto can take an ExtremeSpeed, and KO always with STAB U-turn or Bug Buzz. Roobushin does ~80% with Mach Punch as well. Deoxys-S is oretty much one-dimensional as well. Unless it runs Magic Coat(which it should), it is going to get run over by stuff like Erufuun and Borutorosu. Oh, and Magic Mirror Espy as well. You can still use as a sort of late-game cleaner, or a sort of "gimmick" Specs set, but you are not going to do too much damage even the. Think of it as a Starmie on steroids with that speed, but 10 less base Spl. Atk.
I feel Deoxys-S and Deo-A can stay in OU, at least for the time being. It is not like Scarf pokes are all OHKO'd by ExtremeSpeed . Stuff like Genosekuto can take an ExtremeSpeed, and KO always with STAB U-turn or Bug Buzz. Roobushin does ~80% with Mach Punch as well. Deoxys-S is oretty much one-dimensional as well. Unless it runs Magic Coat(which it should), it is going to get run over by stuff like Erufuun and Borutorosu. Oh, and Magic Mirror Espy as well. You can still use as a sort of late-game cleaner, or a sort of "gimmick" Specs set, but you are not going to do too much damage even the. Think of it as a Starmie on steroids with that speed, but 10 less base Spl. Atk.
People couldn't vote on individual Pokemon on the original banlist for the most part. A lot of users posted saying they wished there was a list that allowed both Darkrai and Lugia in OU but wasn't too liberal with Pokemon like Kyogre, etc., but there was no option for that. Either way, if the majority of qualified users think a Pokemon was incorrectly banned, I don't see why it would be problematic to bring the suspect down to test. Remember, to get brought back down from Ubers, you need to pass the nomination stage AND get a majority vote. That's not easy to do!
So I decided to do my homework. A search for skymin yielded this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45649&highlight=skymin+voting&page=38
I skipped to the last few pages, and I'm really surprised. Everyone was saying that skymin is OU. What the hell happened??
Has anyone been using deoxys-N? What do you think?
Also, what's going to happen regarding the ubers into OU idea?
I skipped to the last few pages, and I'm really surprised. Everyone was saying that skymin is OU. What the hell happened??
Has anyone been using deoxys-N? What do you think?
Also, what's going to happen regarding the ubers into OU idea?
Well, the initial vote to send Skymin to Ubers was very close. There were only 3 more users in favour of Ubers Skymin than OU Skymin. I'm guessing that just the people that preferred OU Skymin were posting in the thread.
Oh, right, 51%/49% against/in favor, I saw that.
What i confused from majority of players is the fact that most are saying that gen 5 actualy has big power creep. No way i will agree. The reason is the fact that gen 5 has no big power creep that is big in term of affecting metagame.
In fact, if we were saying gen 5 power creep is lower than gen 4, i agree
The only reasonable power creep is weather effect, manaphy and 1 pokemon namely Hihidaruma and to more extreme zard. In fact, move is the determining factor after all !!! and as we know new influental move in gen 5 in offense side with insane power is HJK(8.3 % stronger than CC)
Statistical prove :
After some calculation it can be proved that 15 base stats in offense = 10 % more damagee. 10 % might be crucial in some time but mostly not(cept when you need to break down walls) after +2 boost it has 20 % difference and seeing how hard in gen 5 to buff stats up, its quite irrelevant.
Now lets see some calcs for some insanely powerful attack in
Rayquaza, Mence, Kyogre, and Hihi uses + speed Nature
Rampardos uses + attack Nature
Charizard uses + SpA Nature
+ 0 DD Ray using Outrage vs Lead Aero
133.9% - 157.8%
+ 0 Ray Dance Partner Mence Outrage vs Lead Aero
123.9% - 145.8%
Aproximately, Ono and Mence only has roughtly less than 10 % damage inflicted
Psycho boost from Deoxys A with life Orb set EV vs Lead Azelf
99% - 116.8%
(neutralized damage 198 % - 233.6 %)
Hihidaruma LO Flare Blitz vs Lead Azelf
165.6 % - 194.8 %
CAN be SUN BOOSTED
248.4 % - 292.2 %
LO Ogre Water Spout vs Lead Azelf
184.2 - 217.1 %
Rain Boosted
276.4% - 325.7%
Rampardos LO boosted Head smash vs Lead Azelf
192.1% - 226%
Charizard LO Solar Fire Blast vs Lead Azelf
289% - 340.4%
The most powerful come from Charizard in gen 5 in term of Special attack BUT with + SpA Nature. Followed By Kyogre with 14.7% less than zard and Hihi 33.5 % less than Ogre. But remember outside sun, zard's power go down to pitiful level.
This means that gen 5 has very little power creep than most people claim to be.
And seeing those are the most insane among insane attacks in the game, you get the idea
In short we were fooled completely by Base stats. Move power is more affecting than stats after all !
Also i agree with shrangs that Giratina, Ho-oh, and groudon dont deserve OU in any single logic
Why ?
Groudon : im quite displeased seeing someone actualy stupid enough to say Groudon is OU worthy. Say anything you want about grass weak etcetera but Groudon cant be compared with droughtales. Why ? groudon is infinitely better and even more broken in every side possible. Compared, Droughtales is like magikarp to groudon. All droughtaes can do is CM, NP, Hypnomiss, burn, Overheat from 100 base. And even those overheat sometime do pitiful damage. Now groudon ? One of the best physical sweeper, adept lead, Crazy Supporter, Insane Defense that even THE rayquaza cant break easily, Insane movepool, and the arguably best late game cleaner in the game. Groudon isnt Top ubers IF he is weak. Just try use Droughtales instead of Groudon in Ubers for sun support. Also Groudon has perfect stats that in "OU" is unbreakable and perfect seeing his spD isnt low. Thats it. DONt compare shit pokemon like Droughtales that just got superpower lottery that make it better against one of the pokemon that hold title of Big 4 MOST BROKEN pokemon in the game such as Groudon. In fact Groudon is the most broken pokemon in the game alongside Kyogre, Mewtwo, and Arceus.
Giratina : i assume were talking about A. Same like shrang A well be crocune but even more broken. in "OU" he has 100 attack which is enough and insane defense. Now if were talking that Vaporeon is bulky, This thing is even more bulky on both side. This guy is an adept spinblocker and having insane defense. Calculated, his defense is like Nattrei with investment. so this guy will never be OU. Also Giratina's great attacking stats is usable enough making him in OU too versatile and too bulky. Its not like his typng is bad. And shandy cant even beat this guy in healthy state using scarf(using specs ? hes faster sorry).
Ho-oh : Lugia is specially bulky without investment. He has that too. His 90 speed is enough and his special defense with offensive spread enough to not 2HKOed by Arceus Neutral Judgment wich hurt like hell. Offensive pressure wise, he has Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake. And can recover with Roost. He has 130 base attack too. i dont get any hole from his to be said OU worthy seriously.
Lugia(again just want to remind) : If you love robushin, and your fighting type, dont ever suggest this guy to be OU. Yes fighting type has Dark Attack but he doesnt care. Hes Faster and 90 SpA is enough to play offensivey in "OU" abling him to KO with Aeroblast and Earth Power. In OU his broken level is even more crazy than those like Skymin due to its undeniably insane defenses.
In ubers, hes one of the best phazer and can stop many sweeper. What make him insane is not just his defenses. Its his speed. 110 speed is good for wall to have especialy thos that use screen like lugia. Also sugegsting MS on Lugia is stupid. Pressure is the ability of choice for lugia in every cases.
pokemon i fear (unincluding the big 3)
Mew: as long as this thing isnt banned, Stall team will be nonexistent or have a realy2 hard time except when they are using MH or Mirror. This guy is stall's worst nightmare due to his adept movepool abling him to break defensive core without sweat. A combination of high speed, and high defensive power, even offfensive team
has hard time with this guy. Example against stall's important pokemon and some defensive pokemon match up
Blissey : Taunt, Will o wisp or toxic stall
Hippowdon : Taunt to recovery, Toxic or WoW to weaken faster or weaken with attack, stall
Skarmory : Taunt, WoW stall
Foretress : Taunt, WoW stall
Gliscor : WoW or Taunt first on Britscor depend on prediction. Toxicskor without protect and Fling lose. One of the hardest one for stall mew
Scarftar : WoW, Roost
Heatran : Taunt, Light Screen Switch
Defensive Zapdos : Taunt, Toxic need parahax from zapdos to lose match up
Latias : Defensive latias usualy slower. So Toxic does Well then taunt. To soften hit you can use Screen and switch
Nattrei : Taunt, Will o Wisp, Stall
Burungeru, Taunt, Toxic, Light Screen, Stall
Combined with entry Hazard this guy is just beastly
In fact, if we were saying gen 5 power creep is lower than gen 4, i agree
The only reasonable power creep is weather effect, manaphy and 1 pokemon namely Hihidaruma and to more extreme zard. In fact, move is the determining factor after all !!! and as we know new influental move in gen 5 in offense side with insane power is HJK(8.3 % stronger than CC)
Statistical prove :
After some calculation it can be proved that 15 base stats in offense = 10 % more damagee. 10 % might be crucial in some time but mostly not(cept when you need to break down walls) after +2 boost it has 20 % difference and seeing how hard in gen 5 to buff stats up, its quite irrelevant.
Now lets see some calcs for some insanely powerful attack in
Rayquaza, Mence, Kyogre, and Hihi uses + speed Nature
Rampardos uses + attack Nature
Charizard uses + SpA Nature
+ 0 DD Ray using Outrage vs Lead Aero
133.9% - 157.8%
+ 0 Ray Dance Partner Mence Outrage vs Lead Aero
123.9% - 145.8%
Aproximately, Ono and Mence only has roughtly less than 10 % damage inflicted
Psycho boost from Deoxys A with life Orb set EV vs Lead Azelf
99% - 116.8%
(neutralized damage 198 % - 233.6 %)
Hihidaruma LO Flare Blitz vs Lead Azelf
165.6 % - 194.8 %
CAN be SUN BOOSTED
248.4 % - 292.2 %
LO Ogre Water Spout vs Lead Azelf
184.2 - 217.1 %
Rain Boosted
276.4% - 325.7%
Rampardos LO boosted Head smash vs Lead Azelf
192.1% - 226%
Charizard LO Solar Fire Blast vs Lead Azelf
289% - 340.4%
The most powerful come from Charizard in gen 5 in term of Special attack BUT with + SpA Nature. Followed By Kyogre with 14.7% less than zard and Hihi 33.5 % less than Ogre. But remember outside sun, zard's power go down to pitiful level.
This means that gen 5 has very little power creep than most people claim to be.
And seeing those are the most insane among insane attacks in the game, you get the idea
In short we were fooled completely by Base stats. Move power is more affecting than stats after all !
Also i agree with shrangs that Giratina, Ho-oh, and groudon dont deserve OU in any single logic
Why ?
Groudon : im quite displeased seeing someone actualy stupid enough to say Groudon is OU worthy. Say anything you want about grass weak etcetera but Groudon cant be compared with droughtales. Why ? groudon is infinitely better and even more broken in every side possible. Compared, Droughtales is like magikarp to groudon. All droughtaes can do is CM, NP, Hypnomiss, burn, Overheat from 100 base. And even those overheat sometime do pitiful damage. Now groudon ? One of the best physical sweeper, adept lead, Crazy Supporter, Insane Defense that even THE rayquaza cant break easily, Insane movepool, and the arguably best late game cleaner in the game. Groudon isnt Top ubers IF he is weak. Just try use Droughtales instead of Groudon in Ubers for sun support. Also Groudon has perfect stats that in "OU" is unbreakable and perfect seeing his spD isnt low. Thats it. DONt compare shit pokemon like Droughtales that just got superpower lottery that make it better against one of the pokemon that hold title of Big 4 MOST BROKEN pokemon in the game such as Groudon. In fact Groudon is the most broken pokemon in the game alongside Kyogre, Mewtwo, and Arceus.
Giratina : i assume were talking about A. Same like shrang A well be crocune but even more broken. in "OU" he has 100 attack which is enough and insane defense. Now if were talking that Vaporeon is bulky, This thing is even more bulky on both side. This guy is an adept spinblocker and having insane defense. Calculated, his defense is like Nattrei with investment. so this guy will never be OU. Also Giratina's great attacking stats is usable enough making him in OU too versatile and too bulky. Its not like his typng is bad. And shandy cant even beat this guy in healthy state using scarf(using specs ? hes faster sorry).
Ho-oh : Lugia is specially bulky without investment. He has that too. His 90 speed is enough and his special defense with offensive spread enough to not 2HKOed by Arceus Neutral Judgment wich hurt like hell. Offensive pressure wise, he has Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake. And can recover with Roost. He has 130 base attack too. i dont get any hole from his to be said OU worthy seriously.
Lugia(again just want to remind) : If you love robushin, and your fighting type, dont ever suggest this guy to be OU. Yes fighting type has Dark Attack but he doesnt care. Hes Faster and 90 SpA is enough to play offensivey in "OU" abling him to KO with Aeroblast and Earth Power. In OU his broken level is even more crazy than those like Skymin due to its undeniably insane defenses.
In ubers, hes one of the best phazer and can stop many sweeper. What make him insane is not just his defenses. Its his speed. 110 speed is good for wall to have especialy thos that use screen like lugia. Also sugegsting MS on Lugia is stupid. Pressure is the ability of choice for lugia in every cases.
pokemon i fear (unincluding the big 3)
Mew: as long as this thing isnt banned, Stall team will be nonexistent or have a realy2 hard time except when they are using MH or Mirror. This guy is stall's worst nightmare due to his adept movepool abling him to break defensive core without sweat. A combination of high speed, and high defensive power, even offfensive team
has hard time with this guy. Example against stall's important pokemon and some defensive pokemon match up
Blissey : Taunt, Will o wisp or toxic stall
Hippowdon : Taunt to recovery, Toxic or WoW to weaken faster or weaken with attack, stall
Skarmory : Taunt, WoW stall
Foretress : Taunt, WoW stall
Gliscor : WoW or Taunt first on Britscor depend on prediction. Toxicskor without protect and Fling lose. One of the hardest one for stall mew
Scarftar : WoW, Roost
Heatran : Taunt, Light Screen Switch
Defensive Zapdos : Taunt, Toxic need parahax from zapdos to lose match up
Latias : Defensive latias usualy slower. So Toxic does Well then taunt. To soften hit you can use Screen and switch
Nattrei : Taunt, Will o Wisp, Stall
Burungeru, Taunt, Toxic, Light Screen, Stall
Combined with entry Hazard this guy is just beastly
I'm not belittling you because you're new, I'm just saying that you have no clue about the way the suspect process has been handled in the past two years. That's of course not your fault, but if so many people are disagreeing with you in this thread, then you should probably think that, maybe, there are some flaws in your logic. And no, I don't think that we've ever been on a ban rampage here, we just try to achieve a more balanced and enjoyable metagame.
Anyway, if you guys are looking for some stats about how "broken" people felt Skymin was back in Gen 4, I suggest that you take a look at this thread.
As you can see:
Code:
Garchomp - 44 Uber / 41 OU
Latias - 10 Uber / 76 OU
Latios - 61 Uber / 23 OU
Manaphy - 33 Uber / 46 OU
Shaymin-S - 58 Uber / 26 OU
Except stall is troubled by alot of pokemon this gen, so all round stall teams aren't quite popular as they were in 4th gen.
Mew fits in perfectly without breaking or overpowering the 5th gen metagame this is coming from my experience in battles.
Not a lot pokemon coming in gen 5 that trouble stall. The only thing that particularly trouble stall team is Xatu and sableye. Unlike Espy, xatu is geared toward bulky spread making it harder to beat. Things like Rankurusu that is so hyped and MH isnt particularly hard to face
It's not only that but a sheer number of tactics and combination that makes stall not so easy. You got raindance teams, sunnyday teams with pokemon in there that could take the weather advantage and hit hard as hell. Sandstorm got landos and mole, with garchomp back all have access to SD, that is scary.
Salamence is an excellent wall breaker, mixape, damn with blazikin with a +2 atk can threaten stall. Although not released yet, but shadow tag shandere can easily remove a member of a stall team and make it easier for the rest of the team to sweep or whatever.
Mew may handle a stall team by itself but techically you rarely see teams like this because other pokemon can threaten to tear apart stall teams.
We aren't seeing a environment like this because it is hard to pull off.
This is kind of hard to follow but it seems like you are saying that a 10% difference will be doubled by a +2 boost. This is false. if x and y differ by 10% so do 2x and 2y.
well what i mean is
example sala before +2
100 %
After +2
200 %
Ono before
110 %
+2
220 %
The difference is higher after buff. Sorta like that but i cant explain by making words.
Actually, 10% of 200 is 20. So when you add 10%, you're actually adding 20.
lati0s is correct
However, you're saying that in actual numbers, not percents, the difference is greater. That's true.
Just out of curiosity, although I haven't done this, has anyone tried a specially defensive afrobull to counter Skymin?
While other pokemon can counter the Choice sets, there hasn't been a counter to speak of for the SubSeed set, because if they accidentally switch in on the Leech Seed, they're going to be stalled anyway unless they switch out. If they're a Grass-type, Air Slash will do massive damage against them.
In theory, a Specially Defensive AfroBull (Assuming 252/252 +nature) may be the closest thing to a hard-counter for it with Air Slash only doing an average of 23% to it and Herbivore giving immunity to all Grass moves. Afrobull can come in on Seed Flare and Leech Seed for free and get an Attack boost in return. Afro Break or Return will wallop Skymin, and I'm pretty sure the rest of Skymin's team won't enjoy taking that thing's attacks either, even if it doesn't invest much in Attack thanks to the Herbivore boost.
I'm not going to tell people what to do, since I know people don't like carrying specific counters. However, I will say that Afrobull is still very useful outside of countering Skymin:
- Complete immunity to stuff like Spore, Sleep Powder, and of course, Leech Seed, is really useful.
- He alone can be a good check for most members of a Sun team with all of their Chlorophyll users. While the Fire pokemon will certainly give him a bit of trouble, he can murder the Grass pokemon, especially Venusaur who's a star member of Sun teams. --> Because of this, he theoretically fits quite well on a Rain team.
- He can also be a nice partner to your bulky Waters by absorbing Grass moves for them. A nice result that comes from that is that Ludicolo under perma-Rain also gets shut down.
- The annoying Erufuun also hates him with a passion.
- Also, he can ruin Nattorei's day by coming in on Power Whip or Leech Seed and he can shut it down quite well with Taunt, while Gyro Ball does jack shit thanks to Afrobull's low Speed, and he's immune to Power Whip and Leech Seed. He won't do a lot of damage to it without investing in some Attack, but if he comes in on a Power Whip or Leech Seed, he can still do respectable damage considering Nattorei has no recovery move.
I guess if people are looking for a Skymin counter, he's quite a good one, though I hope people won't just look at his base stats and ride him off as shit. Once again, I'm not telling people what to do, so don't criticize me for mentioning a more unconventional counter. :]
While other pokemon can counter the Choice sets, there hasn't been a counter to speak of for the SubSeed set, because if they accidentally switch in on the Leech Seed, they're going to be stalled anyway unless they switch out. If they're a Grass-type, Air Slash will do massive damage against them.
In theory, a Specially Defensive AfroBull (Assuming 252/252 +nature) may be the closest thing to a hard-counter for it with Air Slash only doing an average of 23% to it and Herbivore giving immunity to all Grass moves. Afrobull can come in on Seed Flare and Leech Seed for free and get an Attack boost in return. Afro Break or Return will wallop Skymin, and I'm pretty sure the rest of Skymin's team won't enjoy taking that thing's attacks either, even if it doesn't invest much in Attack thanks to the Herbivore boost.
I'm not going to tell people what to do, since I know people don't like carrying specific counters. However, I will say that Afrobull is still very useful outside of countering Skymin:
- Complete immunity to stuff like Spore, Sleep Powder, and of course, Leech Seed, is really useful.
- He alone can be a good check for most members of a Sun team with all of their Chlorophyll users. While the Fire pokemon will certainly give him a bit of trouble, he can murder the Grass pokemon, especially Venusaur who's a star member of Sun teams. --> Because of this, he theoretically fits quite well on a Rain team.
- He can also be a nice partner to your bulky Waters by absorbing Grass moves for them. A nice result that comes from that is that Ludicolo under perma-Rain also gets shut down.
- The annoying Erufuun also hates him with a passion.
- Also, he can ruin Nattorei's day by coming in on Power Whip or Leech Seed and he can shut it down quite well with Taunt, while Gyro Ball does jack shit thanks to Afrobull's low Speed, and he's immune to Power Whip and Leech Seed. He won't do a lot of damage to it without investing in some Attack, but if he comes in on a Power Whip or Leech Seed, he can still do respectable damage considering Nattorei has no recovery move.
I guess if people are looking for a Skymin counter, he's quite a good one, though I hope people won't just look at his base stats and ride him off as shit. Once again, I'm not telling people what to do, so don't criticize me for mentioning a more unconventional counter. :]
Eh.
I just go with Nattorei, set up some Rocks if I haven't already, and just 2-3HKO it with Gyro Ball (depends on investment). If it can manage to flinch me 4-5 times in a row to kill me, then Afrobull wouldn't have saved me any better.
Edit: I'm seeing that 1500 is looking more and more ridiculous, at this point, you don't even need to be at 1300 to get to page 1. I know in 2 weeks, that standard will rise, but 1500 seems a bit... out of reach.
I just go with Nattorei, set up some Rocks if I haven't already, and just 2-3HKO it with Gyro Ball (depends on investment). If it can manage to flinch me 4-5 times in a row to kill me, then Afrobull wouldn't have saved me any better.
Edit: I'm seeing that 1500 is looking more and more ridiculous, at this point, you don't even need to be at 1300 to get to page 1. I know in 2 weeks, that standard will rise, but 1500 seems a bit... out of reach.
Yeah. Nattorei's definitely the better one, but I only mentioned Afrobull because I've seen a lot of Skymin use HP Fire as well, which Nattorei can't really stomach. Also, Nattorei is completely screwed if he comes in on Seed Flare and his SpD is dropped by 2 stages, since he's not going to be taking very many Air Slashes or any HP Fires, while Afrobull gets a benefit.
Afrobull's not perfect, but he does some perks over the other Skymin counters. Herbivore seems like it was made with stuff like Skymin taken into consideration, and Afrobull is easily the bulkiest user of it, so he might as well put it to some use.
Afrobull's not perfect, but he does some perks over the other Skymin counters. Herbivore seems like it was made with stuff like Skymin taken into consideration, and Afrobull is easily the bulkiest user of it, so he might as well put it to some use.
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