Skymin is a real bitch to counter, but I could see afrobull doing a decent but I'm not sure it can be that effective outside of that role. Still I haven't tested it yet so I'll reserve judgement until that happens.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Its not bad to have multiple counters though, especially if the fro can do alright in standard. That said, I still don't want skymin in standard.
I don't mean to butt in, but as of yet, only one person has been able to break 1500, and the next-highest is 1403 iirc, and only two people have broken 1400. Pokemon Online's rating system is pretty different than what we're used to. I think 1400 would be a much better bet for ranking criteria than 1500.
Well, I think the 1500 is ok, as itt the OP said that achieving 1500 guaranteed a spot in the suspect voting, not you need 1500 to be able to vote.
I've been thinking about it and I just said "Anyone on Page 1", that's the top 40, which is a pretty good sample size and represents the top members of the metagame. It works at least for now until we figure out this new ranking system, and not letting an arbitrary number stop good players from getting in, at least until we figure out what a good ranking is. I brought this up in the chat too and it got good reception there as well.
If we can calculate a better number within the next two weeks, then so be it, but if we can't, I think Page 1 would suffice.
If we can calculate a better number within the next two weeks, then so be it, but if we can't, I think Page 1 would suffice.
That seems like a good way to do it. the "all the people on page one" method makes sure the people are on the top of the tier and reduces the amount of votes but waits not to say the person on top of page 2 is better than the person at the end of page 1. Also factor the fact that people on page 2 and people on page 1 might have the same CRE.....
Maybe let everyone on page 1 can auto-vote while all others can still supply reason why they should vote. It's not like moving from #41 to #40 confers infinite wisdom about the metagame, so anyone who missed the first page should still have a chance.
They should still have a chance, as long as I'm reading this correctly. The last line kinda contradicts the first though.OP said:
I've always seen the first metagame as a sort of free-for-all pilot for both the metagame and the testing method. It's the same as the initial Gen 4 UU with Abomasnow and Staraptor. We need to hammer out the potential nuances of the testing system that we're using. We don't want to be caught with a system that people don't understand or object to later on when the suspects are much more controversial. That's exactly why Phil can't "put his foot down" on this so-called issue.
I wonder if I stay on the first page of the ladder if that constitutes as "high enough".
Anyway, I am seriously changing my opinion on a lot of this shit. I've been ok on almost all of it, but the more I play, the more I think some shit on the ladder is just bull crap.
Let me start by saying "Just because it has no counters does not mean its uber."
But, via the opposite token, "Just because it has counters does Not mean it's not broken."
The main cases of this in my mind are Doryuuzu and Shaymin-S. There are lots of things you can switch into these guys, and more often than not, switch them out. Yes it is possible to beat them. But the measures you have to take to do so are just bullshit.
On one team I made, I tried runnin Hidden Power Ice on Scarf Chomp, and it actually increased my odds of winning drastically. That is freaking ridiculous. When you are running HP Ice on Garchomp, you know the metagame is being stupid. No, HP Ice does not hit Shaymin harder than Dragon Claw / Outrage, but the sheer volume of Gliscor combined with Shaymin-S is what pulls HP Ice onto the set over Fire Blast.
The fact is you are reduced to using Scarf Pokemon against both Darkrai and Shaymin-S, and more often enough those scarf attacks are useless against the rest of the team. For instance, Jirachi makes a fair Shaymin counter with scarf and Ice Punch, but that's just inviting Nattorei to switch in at will.
Actually, scratch that, Wobbuffet is what's really ridiculous. There is no way to easily revenge these bastards without Wobb totally fucking it up. When I see Shaymin-S / Darkrai + Wobbuffet, my eyes roll. Wobb would not be that bad to deal with, but the above combination is absurd if you were planning to use any form of revenge killing. If Genosekuto and its powerful Scarf U-Turn were in the meta, than maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but as it stands . . . >__________>
Darkrai should definitely be banned.
Shaymin I would say isn't all that powerful-- but the shear dependancy it changes to luck, and the over-specializing required to check it are absurd. I say ban this one too. In the past, I'd have been annoyed to ban a good grass type, but Nattorei is such an amazing check to bulky waters (and is freaking everywhere) that I'd say a lack of grass presence is the least of our worries (especially if Jaroda ever comes out). We don't need any more water-hate . . . ban this.
Dory is just stupidly good. You can easily be winning 5 - 2 and be swept by this. Yes it can be countered (skarm utterly lols). Yes it can be blasted to bits by priority (if you have it around still in end game). That doesn't make it any less stupidly good. "Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's not broken."
Besides, the only really good priority abusers to kill dory are Luke and Roob, and Gliscor is fucking EVERYWHERE. In part because of Luke and Roob, but also in part because it's freaking brilliant. I freaking love Gliscor, and I mean why not? It's a terrific poke against stall and offensive alike, utterly blocks out enemy fighting types, and should the enemy special attackers fall (not unheard of mind you), it can single handedly take out a whole team on occasion thanks to the amazing power/coverage of Acrobat + Earthquake. Gliscor's omnipresence makes it extremely possible for fighting types to get at Dory, especially when Nattorei completely lols and sets up on almost all good gliscor counters. >____>
anyway, I'm done raging.
Pokes I'd like to see banned:
-Darkrai
-Shaymin-S
-Dory
I'm really not too sure about Wobb or Deo-A (forget banning Deo-S imo for now), kinda on the fence there.
[/rage]
Anyway, I am seriously changing my opinion on a lot of this shit. I've been ok on almost all of it, but the more I play, the more I think some shit on the ladder is just bull crap.
Let me start by saying "Just because it has no counters does not mean its uber."
But, via the opposite token, "Just because it has counters does Not mean it's not broken."
The main cases of this in my mind are Doryuuzu and Shaymin-S. There are lots of things you can switch into these guys, and more often than not, switch them out. Yes it is possible to beat them. But the measures you have to take to do so are just bullshit.
On one team I made, I tried runnin Hidden Power Ice on Scarf Chomp, and it actually increased my odds of winning drastically. That is freaking ridiculous. When you are running HP Ice on Garchomp, you know the metagame is being stupid. No, HP Ice does not hit Shaymin harder than Dragon Claw / Outrage, but the sheer volume of Gliscor combined with Shaymin-S is what pulls HP Ice onto the set over Fire Blast.
The fact is you are reduced to using Scarf Pokemon against both Darkrai and Shaymin-S, and more often enough those scarf attacks are useless against the rest of the team. For instance, Jirachi makes a fair Shaymin counter with scarf and Ice Punch, but that's just inviting Nattorei to switch in at will.
Actually, scratch that, Wobbuffet is what's really ridiculous. There is no way to easily revenge these bastards without Wobb totally fucking it up. When I see Shaymin-S / Darkrai + Wobbuffet, my eyes roll. Wobb would not be that bad to deal with, but the above combination is absurd if you were planning to use any form of revenge killing. If Genosekuto and its powerful Scarf U-Turn were in the meta, than maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but as it stands . . . >__________>
Darkrai should definitely be banned.
Shaymin I would say isn't all that powerful-- but the shear dependancy it changes to luck, and the over-specializing required to check it are absurd. I say ban this one too. In the past, I'd have been annoyed to ban a good grass type, but Nattorei is such an amazing check to bulky waters (and is freaking everywhere) that I'd say a lack of grass presence is the least of our worries (especially if Jaroda ever comes out). We don't need any more water-hate . . . ban this.
Dory is just stupidly good. You can easily be winning 5 - 2 and be swept by this. Yes it can be countered (skarm utterly lols). Yes it can be blasted to bits by priority (if you have it around still in end game). That doesn't make it any less stupidly good. "Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's not broken."
Besides, the only really good priority abusers to kill dory are Luke and Roob, and Gliscor is fucking EVERYWHERE. In part because of Luke and Roob, but also in part because it's freaking brilliant. I freaking love Gliscor, and I mean why not? It's a terrific poke against stall and offensive alike, utterly blocks out enemy fighting types, and should the enemy special attackers fall (not unheard of mind you), it can single handedly take out a whole team on occasion thanks to the amazing power/coverage of Acrobat + Earthquake. Gliscor's omnipresence makes it extremely possible for fighting types to get at Dory, especially when Nattorei completely lols and sets up on almost all good gliscor counters. >____>
anyway, I'm done raging.
Pokes I'd like to see banned:
-Darkrai
-Shaymin-S
-Dory
I'm really not too sure about Wobb or Deo-A (forget banning Deo-S imo for now), kinda on the fence there.
[/rage]
I must say that things like darkrai etc might be not broken if we prepare our meta but saying thats centralizing or not i dont know.
What make Dark dangerous is his Void
While SKymin is unpredictability and PO's messy RNG
I dont care about mana too much since one of my most common pokemon in the team shut Grass knot mana and Mono Mana up to eleven but dunno for the other
What make Dark dangerous is his Void
While SKymin is unpredictability and PO's messy RNG
I dont care about mana too much since one of my most common pokemon in the team shut Grass knot mana and Mono Mana up to eleven but dunno for the other
About Doryuuzu, I'm really wondering why people are just fine about carrying specific priority for to beat this thing or carrying Skarmory/Bronzong (ie. specific counters), but are saying that Deoxys-A should be a suspect when you have to basically do the same thing for him. It's actually kinda stupid to be honest, because it's not as if Deoxys-A's counters are useless, in fact, Bronzong is a counter shared between the two.
Doryuuzu may have a little less Attack, but he has the equivalent of 225 base Speed in a Sandstorm, which is much higher than Deoxys-A's base 150. And a key point about Doryuuzu's Attack is that he can boost it, unlike Deoxys-A. While Doryuuzu's coverage may not be as good, he can still hit everything for neutral, and when he Swords Dances, he's going to be doing a lot more damage than Deoxys-A would if he's able to hit everything for neutral. I know that Deoxys-A can go mixed, but Doryuuzu's still able to muscle through a lot of physical walls after a Swords Dance, so it really doesn't matter.
To add to this, most priority, even super-effective, can't OHKO Doryuuzu without a boost because he's actually pretty bulky for such a fast and powerful sweeper. If you do the calculations, you can see that 0/0 Doryuuzu takes hits about as well as 0/0 Rotom-W, who is quite bulky.
Deoxys-A on the other hand, takes any kind of hit as well as a 0/0 -1 SpD Cloyster takes special hits.
Another thing to note is that Doryuuzu can cut his checks in half if he's running Balloon, while Deoxys-A has no such option since he'll die to any kind of hit, not just Ground hits.
Literally the only drawback is that he has to have Sandstorm up in order to move that 88 base Speed up to 225 base Speed. But honestly, it's really easy to keep Sandstorm up despite Politoed and Ninetales' efforts. Tyranitar and Hippowdon just have so much more staying power than the two of them. Tyranitar gets his 154 base Special Defense from Sandstorm, and Hippowdon has Slack Off and is able to take a lot of hits on both sides. The fact that there's two weather starters as opposed to one makes it even easier too.
However, while I absolutely hate Doryuuzu and wish he would die, I don't know if he's particularly broken. I don't think Deoxys-A is either. But I really just wanted to mention that it makes no sense that both of them are dealt with in the same way, yet people seem to think Deoxys-A is the more dangerous one.
Doryuuzu may have a little less Attack, but he has the equivalent of 225 base Speed in a Sandstorm, which is much higher than Deoxys-A's base 150. And a key point about Doryuuzu's Attack is that he can boost it, unlike Deoxys-A. While Doryuuzu's coverage may not be as good, he can still hit everything for neutral, and when he Swords Dances, he's going to be doing a lot more damage than Deoxys-A would if he's able to hit everything for neutral. I know that Deoxys-A can go mixed, but Doryuuzu's still able to muscle through a lot of physical walls after a Swords Dance, so it really doesn't matter.
To add to this, most priority, even super-effective, can't OHKO Doryuuzu without a boost because he's actually pretty bulky for such a fast and powerful sweeper. If you do the calculations, you can see that 0/0 Doryuuzu takes hits about as well as 0/0 Rotom-W, who is quite bulky.
Deoxys-A on the other hand, takes any kind of hit as well as a 0/0 -1 SpD Cloyster takes special hits.
Another thing to note is that Doryuuzu can cut his checks in half if he's running Balloon, while Deoxys-A has no such option since he'll die to any kind of hit, not just Ground hits.
Literally the only drawback is that he has to have Sandstorm up in order to move that 88 base Speed up to 225 base Speed. But honestly, it's really easy to keep Sandstorm up despite Politoed and Ninetales' efforts. Tyranitar and Hippowdon just have so much more staying power than the two of them. Tyranitar gets his 154 base Special Defense from Sandstorm, and Hippowdon has Slack Off and is able to take a lot of hits on both sides. The fact that there's two weather starters as opposed to one makes it even easier too.
However, while I absolutely hate Doryuuzu and wish he would die, I don't know if he's particularly broken. I don't think Deoxys-A is either. But I really just wanted to mention that it makes no sense that both of them are dealt with in the same way, yet people seem to think Deoxys-A is the more dangerous one.
Honestly some of the things I'm seeing on the server are ridiculous. Every team seems to have at least 2 of the controversial and you are basically forced to go to ridiculous measures to counter them. I understand that we need to go through this process but I can't wait for the day when skymin/darkrai/wobbufett combination can be banned to ubers where I believe they belong.
Then start building a team that fucks that up. 4 of those Pokes are fucked over by a priority of some kind already, granted not all to the same. But take Roobushin for example, you got Darkrai and Dory covered, and Deoxys after it's Life Orb'ed itself a few times. Or Scizor, who fucks with Wobbu, and picks apart all the others besides Manaphy when they're still rather healthy with Bullet Punch.
But of course I don't know why any of those Pokes are a problem when most people would rather, and more intelligently, rather be spamming rain teams. Dory/Shaymin/Darkrai/Deoxys are all fucked by those Swift Swimmers, for example.
Also 1500 isn't -that- hard but I'm guessing it'll probably get lowered to 1400~ anyways as the 1500+ amount will probably be in the low double-digit count.
But of course I don't know why any of those Pokes are a problem when most people would rather, and more intelligently, rather be spamming rain teams. Dory/Shaymin/Darkrai/Deoxys are all fucked by those Swift Swimmers, for example.
Also 1500 isn't -that- hard but I'm guessing it'll probably get lowered to 1400~ anyways as the 1500+ amount will probably be in the low double-digit count.
One pokemon I'm finding invaluable in this meta is Scarf Abomasnow. Sand and Rain teams alike need him removed, but can't switch their weather changer into Wood Hammer. It doesn't have the power of band, or ice shard (So it is no longer a scarf Shaymin check) but many teams have trouble switching something into a 100% accuracy blizzard. He can effectively revenge almost all chlorophyll/sand throw/swift swim pokemon as well as a weakened Manaphy without a Rindo berry.
Speaking of which, my Manaphy has been hit and miss (likely because I don't supply him the rain he deserves) but Rindo seems to be infinitely superior to Wacan right now. The primary switch in is Nattorei and a great revenge killer is Scarf Shaymin-S, while Nattorei needs prior damage for the gambit to pay off Shaymin-S will fall to an unboosted ice beam as you take between 60 and 70%
TechniTop also makes a great lead and can function well mid-game, though I'm not sure Life Orb is the best item it has served me well.
Maybe I'm over-preparing for the suspects and not covering my other bases well (I do have a t-spikes and roobushin weakness at the moment) but none of them seem to be overly threatening unless their checks are broken- but that can be said for any Pokemon. Only one I'd consider putting up is Manaphy. Maybe, just maybe, Shaymin-S too.
Speaking of which, my Manaphy has been hit and miss (likely because I don't supply him the rain he deserves) but Rindo seems to be infinitely superior to Wacan right now. The primary switch in is Nattorei and a great revenge killer is Scarf Shaymin-S, while Nattorei needs prior damage for the gambit to pay off Shaymin-S will fall to an unboosted ice beam as you take between 60 and 70%
TechniTop also makes a great lead and can function well mid-game, though I'm not sure Life Orb is the best item it has served me well.
Maybe I'm over-preparing for the suspects and not covering my other bases well (I do have a t-spikes and roobushin weakness at the moment) but none of them seem to be overly threatening unless their checks are broken- but that can be said for any Pokemon. Only one I'd consider putting up is Manaphy. Maybe, just maybe, Shaymin-S too.
Scarf Deoxys doesn't hit as hard nor does it have the flexibility to prevent the next poke from proceeding it's set up, leaving you in a one-for-one trade while you each try to attempt revenge killing, and that's something you really dont want to do against a team with auto +2 speed =/
Its funny to see the different opinion of 2 playerbase.
While PO player generally diss wobb away and thrash him, smogon players actualy say wobb is quite broken enough especialy combined.
About doryuzuu, yeah hes not a glass cannon in every sense. I just afraid that if Dory is banned, Rain and sun will dominate making absurd things like ban mana(its inevitable maybe) or Kingdra(backbone of the rain) and maybe even venusaur(the backbone of the sun) happen. But those other isnt as influental as Dory IMO
While PO player generally diss wobb away and thrash him, smogon players actualy say wobb is quite broken enough especialy combined.
About doryuzuu, yeah hes not a glass cannon in every sense. I just afraid that if Dory is banned, Rain and sun will dominate making absurd things like ban mana(its inevitable maybe) or Kingdra(backbone of the rain) and maybe even venusaur(the backbone of the sun) happen. But those other isnt as influental as Dory IMO
I agree. When I say ban rampage, I'm talking about the flood of people coming into this thread waving the banhammer, like the guy below.
Awful post. ugh...
Excellent post. Seriously Bologo, this is exactly the kinda stuff that we should be discussing in here.
It's a shame the afrobull doesn't get quick attack, but he does get pursuit, which can be used if skymin decides to switch out. It could be useful against other stuff too.
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