I'd earlier used a set similar to that specifically using Brightpowder but when setting up subs Smeargle misses Leftovers far too much for an extra 10% of evasion as it can eventually die to sandstorm damage.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I'd earlier used a set similar to that specifically using Brightpowder but when setting up subs Smeargle misses Leftovers far too much for an extra 10% of evasion as it can eventually die to sandstorm damage.
@Rayquazza: See my points on pages 20 and 21. This is a different metagame, and banning everything in sight because it "overcentralizes the metagame," an even more overcentralized metagame comes about. Aside from Inconsistent, which I admit is broken, we have the metagame we were given. People hate the power that this generation has, and they start yelling that every strategy but thier own is broken. They are. In exactly the same way that all OU strategies/good Pokemon would be broken in Fourth Gen UU. We
are playing on a whole new level of power, and saying something is overpowered by fourth gen standards is simply a failure to address the current metagame as an entirely new metagame. However, I am starting to support a Darkrai ban due to the lack of viable counters. Oh, and once again, Inconsistent is broken.
are playing on a whole new level of power, and saying something is overpowered by fourth gen standards is simply a failure to address the current metagame as an entirely new metagame. However, I am starting to support a Darkrai ban due to the lack of viable counters. Oh, and once again, Inconsistent is broken.
True about the sand but, my main point was that Smeargle can abuse Inconsistent and use Acupressure. I would like to know how this set, or a set similar to it, holds up and how it compares to Inconsistent Bidoof. The addition of Acupressure can speed up the process of ridiculous stat boosts.
I guess my bigger question is this: If Inconsistent is accused of being broken, why isn't anybody saying the same about Acupressure? Does it have to do with availability? Perhaps there aren't many good sets to abuse Acupressure?
Acupressure can't stall for boosts, if you stall with protect and subs you have no chance of increasing evasion but you can do this with Inconsistent. Although it might actually be a good idea to combine this with Inconsistent although Smeargle does enjoy having Gear Change/Magic Coat/Baton Pass. Especially Baton Pass.
Acupuncture can not be protect/sub spammed, assuring a turn of free setup. It's why Speed Boost is better than Agility to an extent.
I agree. The initial reason I brought up Acupressure was because of the Bidoof 6-0 battle log I read. The Bidoof ran Defense Curl in one of its moveslots. My thought was to place the same movepool onto Smeargle replacing Defense Curl with Acupressure.
Use Protect, pop the sub, use protect, (if sub is not broken) use Acupressure.
This is a situation I can see Acupressure being used. But, I still see Baton Pass having infinitesimally more uses. This sweeping potential could be passed to our floating eel friend for a fun-filled no-weaknesses sweep.
Okay, I just have one comment about shanderaa. We don't need to ban him. We need to ban SHADOW TAG. That's what's ruining OU.
I don't really get what your point is, Rayquaza_. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Yes, I agree that bans should be done conservatively and carefully, which is why I only ever directly called for Inconsistent to be banned. Yes, I know that Generation V is going to be different from Generation IV, end of story. As someone who repeatedly pushed for no initial banlist on PR, of course I'd understand and agree with such things. Maybe you're not even referring to me. However, your statements are awfully generalized and sweeping and I don't even know who you're trying to chastise anymore. It's also a bit aggravating to see legitimate arguments for a ban being lumped with naive, illegitimate ones.
I think he's trying to chastise me, but I don't see why. I've never said that we should ban anything. I've simply given opinions on what I think is broken. And that Gen4 reference still doesn't make sense to me.
The negative side effects of Inconsistent can be nullified by giving the Baton Pass recipient White Herb. Just throwing that out there.
Out there...
Out there...
Yep bp an ingrain inconsistant to Espeon and just watch the rage quit.
IMO, these are the only things that need a ban:
Bibarel, Octillery, and anything else with inconsistent.
Darkrai, I love the pokemon but the sleep resetting thing is too much.
Manaphy, broken in the rain, should have never been OU in the first place.
Wobbufett
I feel these deserve another chance:
Latios
Shaymin-S
Deoxys (any form)
Doryuzuu
Politoed
Bibarel, Octillery, and anything else with inconsistent.
Darkrai, I love the pokemon but the sleep resetting thing is too much.
Manaphy, broken in the rain, should have never been OU in the first place.
Wobbufett
I feel these deserve another chance:
Latios
Shaymin-S
Deoxys (any form)
Doryuzuu
Politoed
I've tested Inconsistent Octillery extensively over the past few days, and here are my thoughts on it.
No one will deny that Inconsistent is an amazing ability, giving otherwise useless Pokemon a place on OU teams. But I see waaaay too much emphasis being placed on the "evasion boost" aspect of the ability. It's the possibility of a sharp Speed boost, and consequently the 10 or so turns of alternating between Substitute and Protect, that make this ability truly great. Even in matches where after 10 turns I end up neutral or negative in the evasion department, I'll often have enough Special Attack & Speed to rip through teams. And this an important distinction, as everyone clamoring for a ban is doing so by arguing that the Evasion boosts make the ability broken. Yes they certainly help, but from extensive experience I feel that if people want to prove that Inconsistent is broken, they will have to do so by arguing that 10 turns of +1 boosts is broken, not that it breaks Evasion Clause.
Why the Evasion aspect is overhyped: People seem so caught up in the Evasion/Speed boosts that they're completely forgetting the Evasion/Speed drops. From the moment you switch Octillery into battle, on average you should expect to be +1 in all stats seven turns later. And yes, whether you get the Evasion boost in the 1st or in the 7th turn makes a big difference, but really, is a Pokemon that on average has +1 evasion for seven turns (more like 3/4 turns if you factor in Protect) really broken? Sand Veil and Snow Cloak aren't banned because of +1 Evasion (Garchomp may have been banned last gen. but that wasn't entirely due to Sand Veil, and regardless, no one seems to consider him a suspect at this point this gen). Obviously with such an ability the boosts you get, and thus your opponent's "reaction time" to deal with this strategy vary significantly from match to match, but your opponent has roughly 3/4 turns on average to Roar you out when you're at +1 evasion. And that should happen more often than not.
Also I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten a +2 Speed boost and been on a Protect/Substitute binge, to suddenly get a Speed drop. That's the last thing you need when facing Starmie or Latios. My point is even without factoring Evasion in, this strategy is hardly GG if you switch in and get a Speed Boost.
Big picture: you need to respond quickly to Inconsistent users. Even without resorting to the ridiculous measures listed in this thread, you should come out on top more often than not if a) you have a fast Pokemon that can OHKO, b) you have a Roarer. Yes you might get especially unlucky here and there, but if you have two Pokemon that fit the above description, and really who doesn't in the OU Metagame, you should be able to handle Inconsistent Pokemon. If you want to throw in something like Perish Song/Toxic Spikes for good measure go for it, their uses certainly aren't limited to dealing with Inconsistent users. And really, shouldn't we embrace an element of the game which brings otherwise useless Pokemon into the light?
No one will deny that Inconsistent is an amazing ability, giving otherwise useless Pokemon a place on OU teams. But I see waaaay too much emphasis being placed on the "evasion boost" aspect of the ability. It's the possibility of a sharp Speed boost, and consequently the 10 or so turns of alternating between Substitute and Protect, that make this ability truly great. Even in matches where after 10 turns I end up neutral or negative in the evasion department, I'll often have enough Special Attack & Speed to rip through teams. And this an important distinction, as everyone clamoring for a ban is doing so by arguing that the Evasion boosts make the ability broken. Yes they certainly help, but from extensive experience I feel that if people want to prove that Inconsistent is broken, they will have to do so by arguing that 10 turns of +1 boosts is broken, not that it breaks Evasion Clause.
Why the Evasion aspect is overhyped: People seem so caught up in the Evasion/Speed boosts that they're completely forgetting the Evasion/Speed drops. From the moment you switch Octillery into battle, on average you should expect to be +1 in all stats seven turns later. And yes, whether you get the Evasion boost in the 1st or in the 7th turn makes a big difference, but really, is a Pokemon that on average has +1 evasion for seven turns (more like 3/4 turns if you factor in Protect) really broken? Sand Veil and Snow Cloak aren't banned because of +1 Evasion (Garchomp may have been banned last gen. but that wasn't entirely due to Sand Veil, and regardless, no one seems to consider him a suspect at this point this gen). Obviously with such an ability the boosts you get, and thus your opponent's "reaction time" to deal with this strategy vary significantly from match to match, but your opponent has roughly 3/4 turns on average to Roar you out when you're at +1 evasion. And that should happen more often than not.
Also I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten a +2 Speed boost and been on a Protect/Substitute binge, to suddenly get a Speed drop. That's the last thing you need when facing Starmie or Latios. My point is even without factoring Evasion in, this strategy is hardly GG if you switch in and get a Speed Boost.
Big picture: you need to respond quickly to Inconsistent users. Even without resorting to the ridiculous measures listed in this thread, you should come out on top more often than not if a) you have a fast Pokemon that can OHKO, b) you have a Roarer. Yes you might get especially unlucky here and there, but if you have two Pokemon that fit the above description, and really who doesn't in the OU Metagame, you should be able to handle Inconsistent Pokemon. If you want to throw in something like Perish Song/Toxic Spikes for good measure go for it, their uses certainly aren't limited to dealing with Inconsistent users. And really, shouldn't we embrace an element of the game which brings otherwise useless Pokemon into the light?
Haze doesn't stop them from toxic stalling.
And is outclassed by roar and whirlwind (and to a slightly lesser extent bc of subs, dragon tail) for every purpose that does not involve evasion, and maybe when the foe is on their last mon.
While Inconsistent (and evasion) do have plentiful "counters", they're all gimmick counters, not really capable of standing up to much else. Nevermiss moves, bar aura sphere, just aren't powerful enough to be useful ouside of evasion, haze is outclassed, foresight/odor sleuth is also only useful for rapid spinning (a coverage attack is better), miracle eye only for assist power (a coverage move, once again, is better in all other cases, as well as in cases where it would ko the dark type even if not as powerful), clear smog has a very limited userpool and is generally outclassed by roar/ww (not nearly as badly as haze though).
There are those (myself included) who support the ban of sand veil/snow cloak under the evasion clause once all the DW abilities of sand veil/snow cloak pokemon are released and it won't ban by extension any pokemon. Last gen, we couldn't do that because banning the abilities would cause us to have to ban pokemon.
The problem is that it's not very hard to baton pass an ingrain, if you play your cards right. That means no roaring. Smeargle will also be a major problems for teams that rely upon roaring once it gets inconsistent.
How would you handle this?:
Smeargle @ lefties
252 hp/252 speed jolly, inconsistent
Sub
Spore
paralysis move/magic coat/protect
BP
Espeon
Magic mirror
Baton Pass
Sweeper
The main problem this combo faces is MH taunters. Despite being a 3 poke combo, only one of them is dedicated to the inconsistent strategy. The only way to stop it is not to have a pokemon slower than smeargle or have a MH taunter.
And is outclassed by roar and whirlwind (and to a slightly lesser extent bc of subs, dragon tail) for every purpose that does not involve evasion, and maybe when the foe is on their last mon.
While Inconsistent (and evasion) do have plentiful "counters", they're all gimmick counters, not really capable of standing up to much else. Nevermiss moves, bar aura sphere, just aren't powerful enough to be useful ouside of evasion, haze is outclassed, foresight/odor sleuth is also only useful for rapid spinning (a coverage attack is better), miracle eye only for assist power (a coverage move, once again, is better in all other cases, as well as in cases where it would ko the dark type even if not as powerful), clear smog has a very limited userpool and is generally outclassed by roar/ww (not nearly as badly as haze though).
Jonathan said:
There are those (myself included) who support the ban of sand veil/snow cloak under the evasion clause once all the DW abilities of sand veil/snow cloak pokemon are released and it won't ban by extension any pokemon. Last gen, we couldn't do that because banning the abilities would cause us to have to ban pokemon.
The problem is that it's not very hard to baton pass an ingrain, if you play your cards right. That means no roaring. Smeargle will also be a major problems for teams that rely upon roaring once it gets inconsistent.
How would you handle this?:
Smeargle @ lefties
252 hp/252 speed jolly, inconsistent
Sub
Spore
paralysis move/magic coat/protect
BP
Espeon
Magic mirror
Baton Pass
Sweeper
The main problem this combo faces is MH taunters. Despite being a 3 poke combo, only one of them is dedicated to the inconsistent strategy. The only way to stop it is not to have a pokemon slower than smeargle or have a MH taunter.
Wrong, Kyogre can hit it harder than most OU pokemon but he is still faced with the problem of accuracy(Yes I know Thunder can counteract this but it is possible to PP Stall this) and Sp.Def boosts can make it difficult for Kyogre to break their subs. In addition even though Kyogre stands a chance due to Thunder it is one of the few ubers that can actually do this. And it stands absolutel no chance against Smeargle if he gets a speed boost since Smeargle can Baton Pass the boosts to a Groudon. This thing isn't any less broken in ubers since direct attacking generally fails to take it down anyway so more powerful direct hits are just as useless at beating it.
fuckers ban inconsistent already.
The skill "characteristic", as defined by DougJustDoug in the Charateristics of a Desirable Metagame thread states that "The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play." When using Inconsistent, the only "skill" you need is the ability to click a mouse. A cycle between Substitute, Protect and Toxic basically equals GG. You can argue some shit about steel-types, but they WILL be PP stalled between Substitute and Protect, or hit hard by +x Boiling Water/Surf/Waterfall etc depending on the Pokemon with Inconsistent. And with Inconsistent, all you need to do is stall the opponent a bit because the +2/-1 ratio will leave you with a great spread after some time.
tl;dr fuck no read the paragraph
The skill "characteristic", as defined by DougJustDoug in the Charateristics of a Desirable Metagame thread states that "The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play." When using Inconsistent, the only "skill" you need is the ability to click a mouse. A cycle between Substitute, Protect and Toxic basically equals GG. You can argue some shit about steel-types, but they WILL be PP stalled between Substitute and Protect, or hit hard by +x Boiling Water/Surf/Waterfall etc depending on the Pokemon with Inconsistent. And with Inconsistent, all you need to do is stall the opponent a bit because the +2/-1 ratio will leave you with a great spread after some time.
tl;dr fuck no read the paragraph
the simulator has already altered the game mechanics by making sleep moves fail after the sleep clause has been activated so i guess removing the evasion increase can also be done...
Yes, I understand that you and many other people would love to see the banning of this incredibly annoying ability. But is it really neccessary? Soon we will be asking to ban everything else, like Sand Throw Doryuuzu. The thing is, there are still ways to defeat Incosistent users and all it takes is either a few extra moves or one different pokemon.
These include:
- Perish Song - All it takes is one exacution of this move and the opponent will be forced to switch otherwise it will faint. A good example of this is explained here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3171876&postcount=141
- Haze - A great move to use as it eliminates stat boosts without being affected by Evasion boosts
- Clear Smog - Just like Haze it eliminates stat boosts and is unnaffected by Evasion boosts.
- Unaware - This ability is available to Bibarel, Kokoramori, Clefable (Dream World) and Quagsire (Dream World). All of these pokemon are excellent at stopping Incosistent users. Bibarel has resistance against Water which is the most common incosistent type, Kokoramori very fast (114 Base Speed) and can immediatly come in to Taunt and eliminate them, Clefable has good standing defences and Quagsire has great defences to stop them.
- Toxic Spikes - This stops Incosistent users immediatly in thier tracks as all users possess Leftovers there is no Lum Berry to give them a one chance immunity. A Ghost type is very important to partner with a Toxic Spikes user though as Rapid Spinners are keen on knocking the spikes out.
All in all, there are still viable ways to defeat the Incosistent ability, and we should not throw bans at everything we see impossible to defeat.
There is no precedent for this removing of evasion - no official game has ever given the option - whilst there is precedent for sleep clause as we implement it: Every official console game released has included sleep clause as we implement it, and it can be expected that whatever console game is released will also have it.
Your point is not a point.
Toxic spikes are easily removed by a grounded poison. Any Inconsistent user not running a grounded poison is an idiot.
Unaware pokemon can be toxic stalled, especially if the inconsistent abuser has recovery from lefties and/or aqua ring/ingrain.
Haze and Perish Song are outclassed by other forms of phazing, as is Clear Smog albeit not as badly in theory, it is also made worse by its small user pool.
Unaware pokemon can be toxic stalled, especially if the inconsistent abuser has recovery from lefties and/or aqua ring/ingrain.
Haze and Perish Song are outclassed by other forms of phazing, as is Clear Smog albeit not as badly in theory, it is also made worse by its small user pool.
OK, I'll take a look at the counters you've listed and how many will always work.
Perish Song - The Inconsistent user can switch to Wobbuffet or either of the other Shadow Tag pokemon and wait for your Perish Song user to die. Alternatively in the case of Smeargle he can Baton Pass to a Soundproof Pokemon.
Haze - Ok, this actually does quite well but with a few speed and special attack boosts the majority of haze users are Outsped and OHKO'd (Murkrow being the only exception.
Clear Smog - Again the Inconsistent user can outspeed and OHKO or if its Smeargle can Baton Pass to a Steel type.
Unaware - Difficult for the Inconsistent user but its fairly easy to Toxic stall these pokemon, as sub and Protect give great stalling potential even without the boosts they can get.
Toxic Spikes - You don't even need to Rapid Spin these, just bring in a grounded Poison pokemon to absorb them and some of these can lay their own Toxic Spikes to make Toxic stalling even easier.
So by running Wobbuffet and Tentacruel alongside the Inconsistent pokemon removes many of the problems that they might face. Its not really that difficult to work around the Inconsistent counters whereas most of the counters that you have actually listed are fairly obscure and don't add much to most teams apart from countering Inconsistent.
Hey, why is the server down??
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