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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Manaphy isn't the only threat. Having to carry Nattorei or possibly Empoleon just for Kingdra shouldn't be happening. Nobody should ever have to be restricted as to what Pokemon they use. Carrying a Steel-type is fairly necessary now and we've got used to that, but seeing Nattorei on every single team would really take away the fun from everything. It kinda reminds me of the typical early-DP team:

Garchomp
Garchomp counter
Secondary Garchomp counter
Garchomp counter counter
Two fillers

We don't want every single team to become predictable again.
 
Manaphy isn't the only threat. Having to carry Nattorei or possibly Empoleon just for Kingdra shouldn't be happening. Nobody should ever have to be restricted as to what Pokemon they use. Carrying a Steel-type is fairly necessary now and we've got used to that, but seeing Nattorei on every single team would really take away the fun from everything. It kinda reminds me of the typical early-DP team:

Garchomp
Garchomp counter
Secondary Garchomp counter
Garchomp counter counter
Two fillers

We don't want every single team to become predictable again.
How is Nattorei being on every single team? According to PO's statistics (which should be relatively close to Smogon's), only 17% of teams run Nattorei. Keep in mind that Scizor was over 30% last generation. Did Scizor take all the fun out of the metagame? I don't think so. If Scizor didn't take the fun out, how can Nattorei (besides the fact that its ability is annoying)?
 
I didn't say it IS on every single team. What I was getting at is if rain becomes the dominant playstyle (and it could head that way), it could be necessary to pack Nattorei to stop Kingdra.
 
There are plenty of ways to stop rain.
The most obvious way to stop rain is to send out a weather disrupter. Abomasnow, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Ninetales work to start your own weather, and you could resort to Golduck if you really wanted to. As an example, +1 Kingdra deals 86% at most with Waterfall to a 4/0 Tyranitar (most likely Scarfed or Banded), whom has a 75% chance to OHKO back with CB Stone Edge. Needless to say, Outrage does less.

Besides Nattorei and Empoleon, you can also choose to use Evo Stone Porygon2 which has purposes outside of countering Kingdra, or Intimidate users like Gyarados or Hitmontop.
 
Hey guys, here's how you beat a Kingdra:

1. Opponent's Kingdra switches in on your Forretress (or anything else that's useless against it, but bulky enough to survive unboosted attacks, preferably a Steel-type)
2. Kingdra DDs, you switch to (a) a Dragon-type or (b) a relatively frail water-resitant non-steel type that threatens Kingdra. In other words, something that can KO or cripple Kingdra and will live through a Waterfall, but will die to an Outrage. This forces Kingdra to use Outrage or die.
3. Switch in reasonably bulky Steel-type, or really anything that isn't 2HKO'd by +1 Outrage (this can be something like Forretress or a bulky setup sweeper).
4. Stall out Outrage (Protect is useful here for 3-turn Outrages)
5. Kingdra is now confused, and if he stays in he runs the risk of doing big damage to himself, plus giving you a free turn. Ergo, he switches out.

At this point, if you played Step 4 correctly, Kingdra will be at low health, making it harder for it to set up in future (Rest obviously negates this, but Resting over DDing on the switch means Kingdra is vulnerable to status and is rather weak offensively).

And that's how to deal with the undeniably best Kingdra set, ChestoRest. SpecsDra is dealt with in a similar way by tempting it into DM, which immediately forces it to switch out since he becomes neutered offensively after using it once. SubDD is handled in the same way, except you may have to sacrifice your Outrage-weak pokémon if Kingdra Outrages as you break its sub rather than DDing, but this will result in your opponent's Kingdra being locked into Outrage with no DDs, making it very easy to play around.
 
So the way to deal with Kingdra is to utilize some risky switching and to hope that the opponent doesn't see through the painfully obvious ploy. Not buying it at all.
 
People use DD Kingdra in rain? All I ever used was Waterfall/Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Outrage.

What if you lose your weather starter? I carry DD just in case that happens and it has helped me. I also carry yawn to force switches but that's not relevant to the discussion.
 
But why do you think this is true? I just slapped hail on a blastoise spinner set. A lot of people are willing to lead off with their politoed or hippowdon, and lose it on the very first turn. Switch to blastoise, use hail and they're entire weather support is gone for the rest of the match. Smarter opponents will keep their weather starter alive but it then comes down to outplaying them.

Hail on bulky pokemon is a simple solution but I'm sure there are tons of other unorthodox but viable sets. There are definitely ways to counter "weather" in general, they are just sets that would not have been used in gen IV.
No one will let their Hippo die first turn, and unless you run a Specs water attacker, it won't be OHKOed
 
I know this is a little off topic but I say we move on from the disscussion of weather since we've been talking about it for days now...

I Say we move on to talking about Ubers that we might want to move down. I heard some earlier in this thread in I think either the single digit pages or the teen pages. Any ways it was awhile back.

For this I nominate Lugia. Seeing how, especially with the weather, this is such an offensive new metagame we need a sturdy wall. But even though Lugia will be incredibly sturdy, he won't be impossible to kill. For example a choice specs Timid kingdra in the Rain with hydro pump does 58.4% - 68.8% to a Standard pressure Lugia. So basically Kingdra can 2 Hit KO it and roost's added effect won't even help it making Lugia no match for kingdra. And don't worry about the multiscale version because most Lugia will probably run pressure instead because stealth rock cancels multiscale when it swiches in. Also Darkrai and t-tar can also both kill it no problem. I also doubt that Lugia could stand up to a Shell break cloyster's Icicle Spear. And not to mention that Lugia also does not appriciate being poisoned by Toxic. And as an added bonus takes 25% damage of it's HP every time it swiches in due to stealth rock. So yeah Lugia will be very sturdy but Not impossible to take out.


P.S. If you were wondering why my account is so new, it's because my old one wouldn't work. For some reason it wouldn't Let me Post or anything so I made a new one.
 
I dunno about Lugia, sure he can take a million hits, and then some, but there's something which makes me not want to move it down to OU, even though it might be capable. Its defensive capabilities are very similar to Cresselia's, so let's do a rundown between the two:

Cresselia
No SR weakness
Unreliable recovery
Bad offensive stats
Forgettable Speed
Less than ideal typing
Shut down by all weather except Sun

Lugia
SR weakness
Arguably worse typing
Reliable recovery
High Speed
Passable offensive stats
Able to stand up to weather

Imagine the Cresselia hype at the beginning of DP; it never really materialised, as Cresselia didn't perform as amazingly as we all expected. I think that Lugia in OU would be to the standards that Cresselia was held to early-DP.
 
So the way to deal with Kingdra is to utilize some risky switching and to hope that the opponent doesn't see through the painfully obvious ploy. Not buying it at all.

No DD Kingdra is going to waste a golden setup opportunity, so switch #1 is almost guaranteed to work. If you mispredict and it Outrages, you've lost a pokémon but now the Kingdra is basically no threat at all, since it's merely very fast and is now setup fodder for the likes of Roobushin and other bulky set-uppers. If you excecute switch #1 correctly, then Kingdra may outpredict you and DD on the switch, but that's extremely risky on the Kingdra's part - if it doesn't attack and you stay in, it's getting OHKO'd. If it attacks and you switch, it at least dents your switchin. The worse-case scenario is better with Outrage than with DD. Alternatively, you can actually stay in and sacrifice your Outrage-weak poke to be able to then revenge Kingdra next turn, so if it does DD then you can actually kill it. But really, put in a situation like that, Kingdra is far more likely to Outrage.
So there you go. Alternatively, you could try using a pokémon that actually survives +1 Outrage and +1 Waterfall, and OHKOs back, such as MultiScale Dragonite, who OHKOs ChestoRest Kingdra with an Adamant 0 Atk EV Life Orb Dragon Claw (or 252 Atk Leftovers DC after SR, and there's a decent chance even without SR), and assuming MultiScale is active, cannot be OHKO'd by Kingdra's +1 Outrage. If you mispredict and Kingdra Outrages on the switch, Dragonite takes even less damage and can now easily switch to your Outrage absorber. Another alternative is to run a bulkier than usual spread on a pokémon that would usually be OHKO'd by +1 Outrage but isn't with said spread. Not sure if there's a pokémon with the right typing/stat spread though.

How's that?


People use DD Kingdra in rain? All I ever used was Waterfall/Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Outrage.

...And that set is incredibly easy to wall due to Kingdra's offenses being very mediocre when unboosted, especially with split EVs (and if you don't run at least 176 Spe EVs, Scarf Garchomp owns you).
 
Slimman the post was fixed on page 62.
I think something is wrong with my computer. Because I honestly haven't seen it anywhere, even on 62.

Anyway, I could say that rain stall survives even without Drizzle. I could say that if all 6 pokemon carry Rain Dance, you could still so rain stall. I could say that this would still be rain stall, but in a neutered form. Do you think that it's still rain stall, or do you think I've destroyed it?

That's basically what you're suggesting we do to rain offense.
 
What the problem is, short of banning the weather abusing powers period to allow permanent weather (Sand Throw, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll), banning individuals really does nothing to rain short of banning them all. Kingdra has always been strong, it's 95 base stats in attack and defense across the board is misleading. It could always viably run Dragon Dance (which was in itself, hard to stop previously) in that it now gets a check in Nattorei (except Sleep Talk). But it isn't really uber without rain (hence why it's used there with Palkia as Palkia doesn't get Swift Swim).

And rain has so many abusers (Kingdra, Floatzel, Kabutops, Omastar, Qwilfish, Manaphy, Lapras, Gorebyss, Huntail, Ludicolo, Parasect, Toxicroak....). Banning Kingdra and Manaphy wouldn't be the end of the world for it. While it would lose two very helpful pokes that are good with and without rain (but phenomenal with), as long as perma rain is up, they still have insane speed and could fill in the gaps. Kingdra isn't the only poke that could abuse specs Hydro Pump (number 1 move of Rain Specs Kingdra without the -2 of Draco Meteor although none of the other waters get the Meteor as well). Lapras could do a Rest set efficiently (although Mach Punches aren't going to be fun unless it's Dragon Dance/Ice Shard against Bree), it just had been outclassed before. Qwilfish could join the ranks as the fastest Destiny Bonder and Poison Jabber of doom (it is amazing that Qwilfish isn't even mentioned by people, it pretty much laughs at every priority type, has the same speed stat as Kingdra, the fastest Destiny Bond in rain short of that Custap Berry Wobbuffet, Poison Jab is death to grassers, clears up Toxic Spikes as well as Toxicroak...), Poliwrath can still Swift Swim Belly Drum (lol, I didn't even know it could do that until recently) and on and on and on....

So Rain is barely neutered really by only removing Manaphy and Kingdra. While it does lose some of it's most powerful sweepers, it still has plenty of them. And it doesn't reduce it's brokenness at all, just changes it's method.

Fire would get more neutered with the removal of Venasaur and for not having nearly as many good abusers of rain (or inducer for that matter) but it still has Mebjuka, Tangrowth (essentially slower and less special defensive but much more physically bulky Venasaur), Hidiharuma, Charizard, Heatran, Moltres, Exeggutor, Shiftry, etc. But it could still viably work.

Sand is still broken. Two abusers (that are actually good and can fit on any team for the most part except another weather themed one), Sandthrowers like Sandslash and Doryuzu who break the speed barrier, Landlos has Sand Power, Swords Dance, Bulk Up and is bulky and does heck with stab Earthquake and Stone Edge for coverage; Garchomp is just an awesome pokemon (whose most common set now apparently is Swords Dance) who can Swords Dance, Revenge Kill, and is just irritating to hit in sand and has caused losses because of that, Gliscor takes Breloom and can Swords Dance and beat you with stab Earthquake (and has Sand Veil for Sand and Roost or Poison Heal for outside or inside sand). It gives a rock special defensive boost (which really only honestly helps two Pokemon, Tyranitar and Terakion. Nearly everything else doesn't usually help) while Hail gets nothing. However, unlike many other weather pokes, they aren't near useless without sand unlike many Swift Swimmers, their weather is the easiest to set up (except against Rain which it will be hard to switch in, especially if they actually have the move Rain Dance which all weather teams should have their respective weather moves just in case their inducer dies or you can't risk a switch in. But they'll never see it coming and just when they thought they had hope of winning after managing to kill your auto, you pull that baby out and watch their joy die since by that time, you probably could finish them off.), etc.

I thought of only Hail for a second, but even Hail would be dominating as the only weather. A well built Hail Stall will tear people apart since it wouldn't have Sand or other weathers to ruin it, has Kyurem to 1-2 hit ko everything with Choice Specs 100% accurate Blizzards, will stall you to death with things like Walrein, Toxic Spikes, other hazards, etc. Abomasnow is a pretty decent pokemon and can throw Blizzards and Subseed or be Swords Dance or Scarf. (Swords Dance Jolly can beat Adamant Breloom with Ice Shard for the lols and giggles.) Ice has some good users Mamoswine, Walrein, Kyurem, Regice, and a good Hail Team isn't all Ice cause it will have things like Tentacruel, Gliscor, Breloom (Poison Heals), etc to take the Fighting moves that are the bane of Ice types.

And if you remove Rain, Sand will be dominant. If you remove Sand, Rain assuredly will. If you remove Rain and Sand, Sun can rule the coop easy. If you remove Sun, Hail will be overpowerful (the only thing that kept Hail from ruling was auto Sand before and if you remove auto Sun and Rain as well, Hail would be ridiculous).

The only thing to do then is ban all the AUTO-WEATHER abilities. Rain and Sun are still useable with the traditional Sunny Day and Rain Dance. If you want Sand, you should run Sandstorm and Hippowdon and Tyranitar are hardly ruined as good pokes at all for not having Sand (and in fact could then be used on weather abusing teams). It makes Doryuzu much much much much less broken, Garchomp/Landlos/Gliscor don't need sand although don't mind taking advantage of it and Garchomp wouldn't be a luck hax risk of missing and then being swept by it. It never really helped most rocks except Tyranitar or Terakion because many still had too weak special defenses without a ridiculous usage of SDef evs. Hail is weak without Snowstorm but it isn't like anyone was really using Hail (because of Sand/Rain and now Sun) to begin with. It just had to be ban all auto-weathers or none. OU is beginning to look a lot like Ubers (with their Weather and disregard of weather metagame) except minier and weaker sun/water inducers and more sand/rain oriented than rain/sun oriented.

Except that in OU it is much harder to change the weather than there and so there is that problem.

Neutering the auto-weather weather may cause some strategies to disappear (who cares about Parasect, Toxicroak, and Subseed Ludicolo usage in comparison to nightmare infinite weather Chlorophyll/Swift Swim abuse? And it's not like strategies like auto-Hail were being implemented due to the annoyance of other weather so completely killing it makes no discernible difference to the overall game). But it is worth killing a few to stop the overall infinite weather nightmare (and they weren't good in comparison anyways to the attacking prowess terror anyways). And actually it would allow traditional and newer usages of the move Sunny Day, Rain Dance and set up strategies. Sunny Day would be worth finding a way to set up for 8 turns unlike previously as it has better abusers in Hidiharuma, Venasaur, and special attack boosted Charizard. There probably is a reason why they stuck drought on Ninetails instead of something actually useful. Rain Dance had always been used on things like Electrode, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Brongzong, etc. It now has Mischievious Heart users to set it up as well with priority and so does Sunny Day (although lesser spread but Sableye and Erufuun do have it).

So weather being ruined by losing their auto-ability inducer (with the exception of Hail because that is even more of a useless move than Sandstorm which at least some things might want to attempt except on Kyurem which could attempt to use it for 100% Blizzard) is NOT TRUE. It is easier to find things to attempt to set it up than it is trying to play against a permanent weather format when unless you use the same weather team, leaves you at a disadvantage, facing much faster things which also get a power boost as well.

Unless one wants to ban Swift Swim/Chlorophyll which really would neuter them and make weather much easier. But one shouldn't kill Swift Swim/Chlorophyll when it is easier (and more fun as a strategy to play/fight) to set up 5-8 turn weather and use a move to do so instead of having weather on turn 1 without doing anything and already primed for a sweep. It would create more ways to set up weather which are pointless in the face of auto permanent weather and any good weather team should carry multiple users just in case (even permanent to watch the opponent cry if they manage to switch it, only to turn it back).

The fact is that weather FORCES a weather game and anti-weather and restricts anything else to the neither regions with the exception of kinky things like Trick Room (which is lesser used anyways although it is fun). That is what you call overcentralizing. In ubers, they have things to kill weather pokes and things to double abuse both sides and work in all, and an actual good Cloudy Skies. (Zekrom, Palkia, Rayquaza). It also is torn pretty equally between the weathers now (prior it was definitely rain oriented) with support like Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Zekrom for the sunny side as well as an actual good Drought (Groudon). Both weathers (and anti-weather) can actually stand a chance against one another unlike the definite Sand/Rain (or Rain/Sand) slant of OU which definitely overpower.

Non-Uber Cloudy Sky users are pathetic for the most part except maby Lickilicky. I guess Golduck and Altaria are okay...but in OU? Um...never play Altaria against a Sand/Rain/Hail team or certain Sun abusers. Which makes Altaria...well bad. Golduck could work against certain Sand pokes but Doryuzu still outspeeds and could kill you (Jolly Life Orb), Garchomp still outspeeds and could carry Yache (or be boosted), Landlos still outspeeds, and if any of those had a Swords Dance, they definitely kill Golduck. Golduck certainly isn't switching in against things like Venasaur or Mebjuka, or even Choice Band Hidiharuma Flare Blitz which can still potentially ohko even without Sun and being resisted. Golduck would not like Kyurem, potential Abomasnow Wood Hammers, Tentacruel, Breloom, etc.

The only potentially good Cloudy Skies is Lickilicky who still must fear boosted moves and would need to carry a ton of special defense to handle special which leaves it more open to the strong physical things like Breloom, Hidiharuma, anything with Swords Dance on Sand (although they'll need Life Orb to guarantee without Sand or carry something against potential Icebeams unless it's Terakion who would massacre it with or without boost unless it is carrying max hp/def but with Life Orb would still potentially ohko even that without Swords Dance), etc.

Trick Room might potentially be good, since for 4 turns (counting the turn of Trick Room), it would be going first and many weather teams have defensively weaker Pokemon. However, you'll have to survive an attack to use it since you're going last and taking sun/rain boosted stabbed attacks are tough, even with defenses like Porygon2 (Choice Band Hidiharuma can ohko it with Sun Encourage Flare Blitz, even with Max hp/Def and Evo stone and no Porygon runs a spread like that). Then you'll have to finish them off in 4 turns, while still fending off boosted attacks if you don't ohko every round, and then have to somehow manage to reset it without dying once it returns to normal. That...is the difficult part. Trick Room or Cloudy Skies is in no way a surefire counter (but Trick Room is probably somewhat more effective than Cloudy Skies). It won't kill a weather dominated game.

Oh god, I just wrote an essay on why auto-weather is broken.

Ps. Nattorei is a horrible, horrible, horrible defense against a Sun team, lol. And relying solely on Nattorei to block all water and attempting to kill Politoad and then manage to change weather is bad and horribly overpressurizing since if Nattorei goes bye bye, you'll likely die. And switching in Nattorei against a physical Swift Swimmer will NOT work since boosted, they will kill you. Have fun facing Belly Drum Poliwrath, Swords Dance Low Kick Kabutops (who will die if it attempts to switch in on Natt but Natt can't switch in on it), etc. Heck, if they have Cloyster, they can turn your Nattorei useless although Cloyster itself isn't a Swift Swimmer.
I´m not an english speaker and reading every your post for me is a long and tedious process. I agree with you in many things but i think that the weathers, if you exclude speed-boost abilities (and Hidration) aren´t so broken and are much more balanced, and even the power boosted water attacks (in rain), fire attacks (in sun) and steel/rock/ground attacks (in SS with Sand strength) and the 100% acc. attacks can be predicted (in the same way that you can predict an Earthquake from a Garchomp), and DD-Kingdra with +1 speed but without Swift swim can be revenge killed without Scarf-Ditto (you can use Scarf-Garchomp or Scarf-Sazandora for example), IMO the problem with limit the weather to weather moves is that it only will make the battles slower and countering a weather sweeper changing the weather will be even harder than with auto-weather abilities (and there aren´t many Mischievous Heart pokemon that can use a weather move and resist a hit).
 
Ps. Nattorei is a horrible, horrible, horrible defense against a Sun team, lol.

Yes, and Deoxys-A is a horrible, horrible, horrible wall. Blissey is a horrible defense against mono fighting teams. Flash fire shandera can't hope to touch Porygon2 with trace. I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to prove. Aside from the fact that pokemon have counters and not every pokemon can do everything.
 
I read every other paragraph of that dissertation.

When you said that Auto-Weather is broken because of the abusers, I started laughing.

Luvdisc, Sandslash, and Bellossom are broken in their weather because they can abuse it, because obviously, abuse is brokenness when you get right down to it.

You can't just make weather disappear because you want it to. Weather will stay, and y'all need to get used to it. You can't hide under your rocks, yelling "THEY'RE BROKEN" to make your life easier when a few simple Pokemon can shut it down.
 
I read every other paragraph of that dissertation.

When you said that Auto-Weather is broken because of the abusers, I started laughing.

Luvdisc, Sandslash, and Bellossom are broken in their weather because they can abuse it, because obviously, abuse is brokenness when you get right down to it.

You can't just make weather disappear because you want it to. Weather will stay, and y'all need to get used to it. You can't hide under your rocks, yelling "THEY'RE BROKEN" to make your life easier when a few simple Pokemon can shut it down.
What exactly can "shut down" a Rain team with Perma-rain?
 
To say that a few pokemon can shut down rain is a bit of an exaggeration. If rain got "shut down" by a handful of things then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Changing the weather manually is one way to interrupt rain. Without changing the weather, I would say that full stall teams give rain a bit of a hard time.
 
I think something is wrong with my computer. Because I honestly haven't seen it anywhere, even on 62.

Anyway, I could say that rain stall survives even without Drizzle. I could say that if all 6 pokemon carry Rain Dance, you could still so rain stall. I could say that this would still be rain stall, but in a neutered form. Do you think that it's still rain stall, or do you think I've destroyed it?

That's basically what you're suggesting we do to rain offense.

All that was addressed in the post :) Same one that had the fucked up hide tabs Q_Q.


Anyways about Lugia in OU. People will rage but honestly, when using Lugia on a server that temporarily did allow it, Lugia was not exactly what the hype illuded him to be, however with such a small time frame to check Lugia, it could've just been that people didn't figure out how to properly fit him into their team. They could of just tossed in lugia "just because" and that could've been why his hype didn't match up the effect. I didn't get to play with Lugia or against Lugia too much on that server, so my experience is still rather little to speak on that.

Just for the sake of discussion...
I don't know if it's good enough as a tank in this metagame if it's being held back from OU because of it's tanking ability. In terms of unresisted hits
51.6% - 61%% is Specs rain kingdra to calm 252 hp/252 SpD (ES) Porygon2 while that same Kingdra does 49.3% - 58.4% calm to 252 hp/ 252 Lugia.
The damage taken is pretty similar for both of them.
Porygon2 has Trace and eventually Lugia will get Multi-scale.
Lugia has more five weaknesses compared to Porygon2's one. Lugia has a sweet movepool though, and resistances where Pory has...none.
The ability to phaze and set up screens helps too.
Outside of the greater Special attack. One thing though is that Pory 252/252 bold pory takes less damage from neutral physical attacks than 252/252 bold Lugia. However Lugia has leftovers and the damage difference is completely removed by leftovers. Unless Porygon2 traces Magic Guard or ice body in sandstorm/hail Lugia would always be better off since it has leftovers.
There similarities as tanks when pushed to their best at tanking a specific stat would make you think Lugia perhaps isn't too far off from Porygon2.
Obviously Lugia is a better mix wall when it comes to neutral attacks.

I somewhat doubt Lugia would break OU, but I doubt he'd make he'd "benefit it" He's still dying to Dory's rock slide, or to Kingdra, etc even outside weather, we've got a lot of harrd hitters, that Lugia doesn't hit hard back at.
 
All that was addressed in the post :) Same one that had the fucked up hide tabs Q_Q.


Anyways about Lugia in OU. People will rage but honestly, when using Lugia on a server that temporarily did allow it, Lugia was not exactly what the hype illuded him to be, however with such a small time frame to check Lugia, it could've just been that people didn't figure out how to properly fit him into their team. They could of just tossed in lugia "just because" and that could've been why his hype didn't match up the effect. I didn't get to play with Lugia or against Lugia too much on that server, so my experience is still rather little to speak on that.

Just for the sake of discussion...
I don't know if it's good enough as a tank in this metagame if it's being held back from OU because of it's tanking ability. In terms of unresisted hits
51.6% - 61%% is Specs rain kingdra to calm 252 hp/252 SpD (ES) Porygon2 while that same Kingdra does 49.3% - 58.4% calm to 252 hp/ 252 Lugia.
The damage taken is pretty similar for both of them.
Porygon2 has Trace and eventually Lugia will get Multi-scale.
Lugia has more five weaknesses compared to Porygon2's one. Lugia has a sweet movepool though, and resistances where Pory has...none.
The ability to phaze and set up screens helps too.
Outside of the greater Special attack. One thing though is that Pory 252/252 bold pory takes less damage from neutral physical attacks than 252/252 bold Lugia. However Lugia has leftovers and the damage difference is completely removed by leftovers. Unless Porygon2 traces Magic Guard or ice body in sandstorm/hail Lugia would always be better off since it has leftovers.
There similarities as tanks when pushed to their best at tanking a specific stat would make you think Lugia perhaps isn't too far off from Porygon2.
Obviously Lugia is a better mix wall when it comes to neutral attacks.

I somewhat doubt Lugia would break OU, but I doubt he'd make he'd "benefit it" He's still dying to Dory's rock slide, or to Kingdra, etc even outside weather, we've got a lot of harrd hitters, that Lugia doesn't hit hard back at.
What in God's name possessed you to type that post?

Jolly Balloon Dory's Rock Slide: 30.8% - 36.5%

Yeah, you're getting phazed. 1-on-1:

Lugia's Surf (no Sp. Att): 49.3% - 58.2%

You still lose.

Lugia is incredibly hard to break, even in Ubers. You'd have to use Darkrai, Ghost/Dark Arceus, or a Bulk Up Dialga as your win-condition. All it has to do is set up Reflect, Whirlwind to make hazards do the work, Pressure stall and watch you do nothing to stop it. I don't even want to THINK about this in OU. Seriously, go play some more Ubers.

Also, we have to agree not to ever discuss any possibility of Lugia being OU once it gets Multiscale. That shit's broken even in Ubers.
 
What in God's name possessed you to type that post?

Jolly Balloon Dory's Rock Slide: 30.8% - 36.5%

Yeah, you're getting phazed. 1-on-1:

Lugia's Surf (no Sp. Att): 49.3% - 58.2%

You still lose.
Lugia was mentioned in Here for OU. So I was commenting on it and saying that, or at least trying to say that, Lugia's not dealing with Kingdra or rain, and would be a better tank than Porygon2.

Oh and that still means that if Lugia comes in on a Sword danced switch Lugia's taking 60% minimum when Dory is faster, So when is Lugia using that ability to cause a 2hko when if it stops resting it gets 2HKO'd?
Even then, if Stealth rocks are up Lugia's also in a bad situation.
Obviously not trying to say that Lugia is weak or some shit, and I hope your not getting that from the post. Im not speaking on pro or anti Lugia.

Lugia is incredibly hard to break, even in Ubers. You'd have to use Darkrai, Ghost/Dark Arceus, or a Bulk Up Dialga as your win-condition. All it has to do is set up Reflect, Whirlwind to make hazards do the work, Pressure stall and watch you do nothing to stop it. I don't even want to THINK about this in OU. Seriously, go play some more Ubers.

Also, we have to agree not to ever discuss any possibility of Lugia being OU once it gets Multiscale. That shit's broken even in Ubers.
Durr Lugia gets toxic'd and dies. Anyways was comparing the power of Lugia and Porygon2 in terms of how much they take from neutral damage.

Multiscale Lugia would be nasty. Since even after SR it's bulky enough to heal back to full. Though there is always the omni-present toxic. Though that's a rather slow process to use against Lugia so Q_Q.
 
I did the calcs for adamant life orb Dory and even then he's netting 38% - 45.2%. No chance to 2HKO unless you've got rocks up. +2 Dory is doing around 89% max which is, once again no chance to OHKO unless you've got rocks.

Perhaps I'm just overthinking though and Lugia is worth testing afterall. Let's ignore multi-scale for now. We're already ignoring every unreleased ability.
 
How the hell is weather being discussed to be tested? I don't get that at all.

What exactly can "shut down" a Rain team with Perma-rain?

Permanent Sun, Sand, or Hail; anything knowing Hail, Sandstorm, Sunny Day. In a warstory recently there was Hail Tentacruel that worked to good effect, if I recall correctly.

Weather is just another part of the game. If it gets out of hand, then we'll talk. For now, it's just another method to throw in with hyper offense and stall.
 
Durr Lugia gets toxic'd and dies. Anyways was comparing the power of Lugia and Porygon2 in terms of how much they take from neutral damage.

Base 110 Speed and Substitute says hi to Toxic. He could even run something ridiculous like Calm Mind/Rest/Sleep Talk/Hidden Power Flying (Aeroblast's PP is a bit low, so yeah) and still dominate things.
 
Use Worry Seed with Erufuun or Chlorophyll Jumpluff and proceed to stall him out or force him to switch. While we're mentioning ridiculous things.

Though I've actually beaten a giratina in ubers like this so I can vouch for Worry Seed.
 
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