np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[gvmgvm40]

Does it seriously limit the OU meta?

If YES: Send to Ubers.

Deoxys-D outclasses Gardevoir, Cresselia and Uxie.
Heracross outclasses Hitmonchan/lee, Medicham and Primeape.
Heatran outclasses Entei, Typhlosion and non-DW Shanderaa.

Are these Pokemon broken?

If a Pokemon outclasses other Pokemon, it simply means it's better.

 

[jchen]

Personally, I found that running a Lum Berry Ttar hosed everything from Darkrai all the way to Spore Smeargle. Run a single Poke with Heal Bell in your all-offense team; Sleep has existed for a lot longer than Gen 5, and not having an answer to it sounds like a personal problem, not a System problem (especially since Sleep Clause means switching out your now-snoozed Poke and negating one of your opponent's most powerful weapons)

EDIT: Heck, run Magic Mirror Espeon. Fast, powerful, reflects Spore. There ya go.

please explain how a lum berry T-tar in any way shape or form counters darkrai. you switch into dark void. lum berry cures you of sleep. then you are slower and he dark voids you again and you are fucked. Or he just focus blasts and you die. Lum only works if darkrai is switched into T-tar, and thats not a reliable counter.

 

[domeface]

About the Darkrai thing, we wouldn't be testing 'Darkrai without Dark Void', we would be testing Dark Void. It just so happens that the only pokemon it affects is Darkrai. It's exactly the same concept as the Soul Dew clause last gen; no pokemon could use the item, but the clause only affected Lati@s. This would then allow us to see if Voidless Darkrai is OU material without making the ruleset too overcomplicated; the rule would be 'no pokemon may use the move Dark Void' as opposed to something like 'the pokemon Latios may not use Draco Meteor or Calm Mind'; the former is no more complicated than the banning of Soul Dew, while the latter creates the confusing mess everyone seeks to avoid.

EDIT:

2) The prerequisites for sending things to Ubers should be that they either utterly invalidate 3+ other Pokemon that could fill the same niche (Skymin/Darkrai),

Staraptor outclasses Swellow who outclasses Dodrio who outclasses Farfetch'd. Staraptor for Ubers...? Similarly you've got Heatran outclassing almost every specially-based Fire-type, Jolteon outclassing almost every pure Electric type, the long line of outlcassed bulky waters... the list goes on. The existance of other similar pokemon that are not used due to the presence of pokemon X should not make pokemon X Uber; it should make it OU. Pokemon X may well have other characteristics that make it Uber, but outclassing other pokemon has no effect on the brokenness of a given pokemon.

 

[XienZo]

Deoxys-D outclasses Gardevoir, Cresselia and Uxie.
Heracross outclasses Hitmonchan/lee, Medicham and Primeape.
Heatran outclasses Entei, Typhlosion and non-DW Shanderaa.

Are these Pokemon broken?

If a Pokemon outclasses other Pokemon, it simply means it's better.

He doesn't mean that they're broken.

His whole argument is that, if a pokemon outclasses multiple other pokemon that would be OU otherwise, then, that pokemon is centralizing the metagame more than if the outclassed pokemon would in the absense of the superior pokemon.

However, this would not mean that all non NUs are centralizing. If pokemon W outclasses X, Y, and Z, but if W was removed and X then outclassed Y and Z, W wouldn't directly be centralizing. On the other hand, if W outclasses X, Y, and Z, but X, Y, and Z themselves each had a niche that could only be performed by themselves and W, then by removing W, we now have 3 different pokemon playing the roles that a single pokemon did, thus decentralizing the metagame.

Remember that things aren't banned directly because they are broken; they're banned because they overcentralize. Obviously, in a competitive community, broken things DO get overused and overcentralize, but that doesn't mean that non-broken pokes can't overcentralize either.

 

[UltiMario]

Remember that things aren't banned directly because they are broken; they're banned because they overcentralize. Obviously, in a competitive community, broken things DO get overused and overcentralize, but that doesn't mean that non-broken pokes can't overcentralize either.

No, that is absolutely stupid.

If a Pokemon isn't broken, you don't ban it. Simple as that. That'd be like saying Infernape is broken in Gen IV because every team needs to be prepared for it or face a sweep. If it just so happens something is used a lot and most teams need to pack a counter for it as such, that's called Teambuilding, and not being able to build a good team is a bad reason to say something is Uber.

 

[XienZo]

No, that is absolutely stupid.

If a Pokemon isn't broken, you don't ban it. Simple as that. That'd be like saying Infernape is broken in Gen IV because every team needs to be prepared for it or face a sweep. If it just so happens something is used a lot and most teams need to pack a counter for it as such, that's called Teambuilding, and not being able to build a good team is a bad reason to say something is Uber.

Well, that's technically what we're going by right now. I'm just saying that a more decentralized metagame would require banning things that aren't broken.

It's not about having to be prepared for whatever threat. It's that, obviously, there are some non broken pokemon, that if removed, would allow for more viable options in the metagame, and thus decentralize it.

And once again, I never said a pokemon was broken because it overcentralized. First of all, Infernape would only be hindering the metagame if it outclassed multiple pokes with different niches. Furthermore, if it did, it wouldn't be broken, it'd simply be centralizing.

 

[Cshadow]

Outclassing =/= Centralizing or Over centralizing

Similarly;

Over centralizing =/= Broken

 

[alphatron]

I don't get it. I understand that the sleep mechanics have changed, but hasn't sleep ALWAYS guarenteed at least one turn of setup before Gen V?

 

[XienZo]

Outclassing =/= Centralizing or Over centralizing

Similarly;

Over centralizing =/= Broken

Yeah, that was my point...

It's only in certain cases that outclassing leads to centralization.

At the same time, just because it's not broken doesn't mean it doesn't lead to centralization.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

About the Darkrai thing, we wouldn't be testing 'Darkrai without Dark Void', we would be testing Dark Void. It just so happens that the only pokemon it affects is Darkrai.

And Smeargle!

 

[fidgety]

I don't get it. I understand that the sleep mechanics have changed, but hasn't sleep ALWAYS guarenteed at least one turn of setup before Gen V?

it's just now a sleeping pokemon means instead of X pokes +1 pending its X pokes + 1 if you r really lucky + u can keep it alive long enogh 4 it 2 wake up some how since every time you switch the sleep counter resets.

 

[Redjar]

I've faced spore users/ sleep powder users/ and Voidrai and while darkrai may be broken I have never once considered sleep to be broken. The new mechanics do make it more annoying but it hasn't broken any gameplay experiences for me and I get on quite regularly. Getting rid of sleep just sounds like people complaining about a mild inconvenience granted my whining about incosistnent and ditto is similar in that aspect I guess.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I've faced spore users/ sleep powder users/ and Voidrai and while darkrai may be broken I have never once considered sleep to be broken. The new mechanics do make it more annoying but it hasn't broken any gameplay experiences for me and I get on quite regularly. Getting rid of sleep just sounds like people complaining about a mild inconvenience granted my whining about incosistnent and ditto is similar in that aspect I guess.

Except that Inconsistent is legitimately broken and Darkrai is tough, fast, and sleep hurts you.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

About the Darkrai thing, we wouldn't be testing 'Darkrai without Dark Void', we would be testing Dark Void. It just so happens that the only pokemon it affects is Darkrai.

Breloom learns Spore, which is more accurate, and is viable by itself, even without Spore. If Dark Void is broken, Spore must be broken too. However, it's patently obvious that Breloom is not broken. The argument for banning a move would have to argue that the move itself is broken, but Dark Void does not make the pokemon with it overpowered, it's just a large part of why Darkrai is so powerful.

 

[Redjar]

Except that Inconsistent is legitimately broken and Darkrai is tough, fast, and sleep hurts you.

I do agree w/ Inconsistent being broken. Oh so broken in my eyes. Sleep hurts you but so does toxic or most statuses and attacks for that matter. Darkrai should be ubers as he used to be b/c of the reasons you mentioned. Sleep itself is not bad.

 

[TheValkyries]

Breloom learns Spore, which is more accurate, and is viable by itself, even without Spore. If Dark Void is broken, Spore must be broken too. However, it's patently obvious that Breloom is not broken. The argument for banning a move would have to argue that the move itself is broken, but Dark Void does not make the pokemon with it overpowered, it's just a large part of why Darkrai is so powerful.

What gives you the impression that Breloom isn't broken? Is it because he wasn't broken last gen? As far as I can tell, not many people are using Breloom so far in this gen, being more focused on the high-speed and powerful toys. Now, I'm not saying that he is broken, I'm just discouraging logic such as this, because as of right now, Breloom's an unknown factor, so we can't jump to conclusions about him just yet.

 

[idiotfrommars]

I have been using Breloom since the Alpha test on PO started and I can vouch for the unbrokeness of Breloom. He is good, but far from overpowered and spore does not make him broken. Sleep is just another thing people have to deal with and Darkrai is not broken hecause of Dark Void. Instead he is broken because of the combination of Dark Void, his stats, and his coverage.

 

[ToastTyrant13]

I have been using Breloom since the Alpha test on PO started and I can vouch for the unbrokeness of Breloom. He is good, but far from overpowered and spore does not make him broken. Sleep is just another thing people have to deal with and Darkrai is not broken hecause of Dark Void. Instead he is broken because of the combination of Dark Void, his stats, and his coverage.

I have to agree with Idiot. Sleep is not broken imo. It's what it's used on/how it is used. Darkrai has proven to be a problem. Amazing coverage in Dark Pulse/Focus blast, great speed and outstanding special attack. Plus, don't forget Nasty Plot. Dark Void is just a tool that Darkrai uses to be even more broken. If it were on something OU, say...Tyranitar or Warubiaru..or anything with basic stats, we'd have no problems with it. It's just the pokemon that uses it. I mean tha ability to speedily put you're opponent to sleep, then have you're way with Nasty Pllot/Focus-Pulse? Please. It doesn't even need Dark Void to get away with it, but then he abuses it. Breloom, however, doesn't have the speed to make spore a problem. It can be if you never expect it, and it usually is, but I'm MUCH more worried about things like paralysis and toxic.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

What gives you the impression that Breloom isn't broken? Is it because he wasn't broken last gen? As far as I can tell, not many people are using Breloom so far in this gen, being more focused on the high-speed and powerful toys. Now, I'm not saying that he is broken, I'm just discouraging logic such as this, because as of right now, Breloom's an unknown factor, so we can't jump to conclusions about him just yet.

Breloom was an example. What about Jumpluff or Parasect? They're both given reliable sleep moves, too, but it's highly unlikely that anyone would count them overpowered in any way. The point is that the move in no way is broken. To argue for Dark Void being overpowered is to argue that any pokemon with access to it or similar moves such as Spore or Sleep Powder is overpowered due to their access to that move. You can argue that sleep itself is broken (I don't believe it is), but arguing that Dark Void is broken and no other sleep moves is simply trying to neuter Darkrai for use in OU.

But seriously, Breloom is nowhere near overpowered.

 

[ToastTyrant13]

My point exactly. It's never been the move, it's the 'mon. Besides, banning a move on Uber material which makes it legit (like said example), which would mean not anywhere near broken, which means OU, which means a massive power shift in order to adapt to it, which means a terribly unstable Metagame. It's just aking for trouble imo.

 

[SJCrew]

About the Darkrai thing, we wouldn't be testing 'Darkrai without Dark Void', we would be testing Dark Void. It just so happens that the only pokemon it affects is Darkrai. It's exactly the same concept as the Soul Dew clause last gen; no pokemon could use the item, but the clause only affected Lati@s. This would then allow us to see if Voidless Darkrai is OU material without making the ruleset too overcomplicated; the rule would be 'no pokemon may use the move Dark Void' as opposed to something like 'the pokemon Latios may not use Draco Meteor or Calm Mind'; the former is no more complicated than the banning of Soul Dew, while the latter creates the confusing mess everyone seeks to avoid.

Semantics. You are trying to weaken Darkrai by getting rid of a move only he can learn to make him fit with the standard metagame. Dark Void, unlike Soul Dew, has no 'suggested' use and isn't capable of being redistributed; Darkrai learns it by level up and it's part of his innate learnset. Because of these facts, no amount of logic you entangle yourself within will change what you're actually doing when you suggest a Dark Void clause. This is still a bad idea.

 

[domeface]

And Smeargle!

No, because no Smeargle ever uses Dark Void in singles due to the presence of Spore, and it'd probably be banned in Doubles anyway under Sleep Clause.

EDIT: @above: sorry, half of what you said makes absolutely no sense (what the fuck is a 'suggested use'?) but the point you're getting at seems to be that banning Dark Void is no different from removing it from Darkrai's movepool. However, you simply claim this is a bad idea without supplying any evidence; in what significant way (that is, not 'SD is an item, DV is a move') is banning Dark Void any less acceptable than the Soul Dew clause? The biggest argument against banning specific moves on specific pokemon is that it overcomplicates the ruleset, and it creates a slippery slope (ie, 'Water Pulse Kyogre could be OU!' etc).

@cosmicexplorer: I think what you're basically saying is 'if we ban move x, and move y is categorically superior, we must also ban move y, otherwise we're not banning the move, simply its use on a particular pokemon'. However, consider this: Light Ball doubles both attacking stats. Soul Dew increases SpA and SpD by one stage. In some situations, Soul Dew is admittedly superior, but the net boost granted by Light Ball is much greater, and the attacking stats are arguably the most useful stats to have boosted. However, last generation we banned Soul Dew and not Light Ball. This was because the abusers of Soul Dew were two pokemon with good typing, abilities, BST and stat distribution, while the only abuser of Light Ball was an otherwise terrible pokemon with subpar stats all round when not boosted by the item. If Light Ball had been available to something like Salamence last gen, it almost certainly would've been banned. The reason it wasn't was because of its distribution. The same applies to Dark Void and Spore; Dark Void is available to a pokemon with more or less the best possible specially offensive stat distribution backed by a 600 BST and an ability that makes Sleep even worse than usual; by comparison, Spore is available to three much weaker pokemon. Dark Void is to Spore as Soul Dew is to Light Ball.

 

[Citizen]

Easy solution: Ban Darkrai, send it back to where it belongs. Screw all the complications about banning a single move and whatnot.

 

[fidgety]

i still think that a blanket ban on sleep moves w/ 75%+ accuracy is @ least worth consideration.

 

[November Blue]

No. I really think that that's going too far. Sleep wasn't buffed this gen, it was changed. The sleep counter reset is balanced by the three turn max duration. Not everyone runs hyper offense, so being asleep for 4 turns isn't as bad as it might sound, especially on a bulky pokemon. Outside darkrai, sleep isn't really a problem. It's not even overused or centralizing. It was brought up as a result of your efforts to wedge darkrai into OU, which, IMO, is the same thing as twister/ember reshiram.

Also, do we really want to nerf breloom? Because I sure as hell don't.