np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Of course rain would still be viable
its commonly known as the best
and kingdra, ludicolo, ect. are proof
even with the extra move slots and damp rock

sun isnt as easily abused as you may think
sun abusers arent nearly as resistant as the rain abusers
and since the OU metagame has almost always been flooded with water types (NO PUN INTENDED) they are far easier to use
because they have proven their worth in and out of weather
while almost all pokemon used by a sun team aren't viable without sun

sand has taken a great step since 4th gen
but once again all sand users have many weaknesses
even dory is fairly weak to mach punch
some spots have to be filled by types that dont really gain anything in the sand
(excluding not getting damage because almost 25% of the metagame allready does that)

Well, to use an example from 4th Gen, where rain was very similar, but lacked Politoed - how common was it? It was viable yes but by no means common, which in general can be taken as it not being a dominant playstyle. Now think that this is the Rain that we reduce it to if we ban Drizzle - and consider the other vastly improved weathers which on every turn can reset the weather with a mere switch. This is why I see Rain as being unviable.

In any case, it's not merely the Damp Rock, extra moveslot and turn count that neuters Rain without Drizzle. The fact that a turn must be used to cast Rain both makes the abusable turns 7, and gives the opponent a free switch or setup oppurtunity. It hinders your switching, because doing so wastes Rain turns - so if your sweepers can be walled, clever switching can stall them out until Rain goes down and the opponent counterattacks. With Permarain, things can repeatedly be worn down with little fear of Rain dropping. These are some of the non-tangible reasons why Rain without Drizzle is much less effective.

I love how people just list Ludicolo/Kingdra/Kabutops as broken with absolutely NO evidence. They just assume that its true, as if it were common sense or something.

They haven't changed for 3 generations, yet, only now when 8 turns becomes infinite everyone starts losing their mind. What exactly changed for those three pokemon on that 9th turn? Or that 10th turn? So on, and so forth. These Pokemon are not suddenly broken just because rain is infinite. They're the same as they've always been. I simply can't understand how people feel this need to ban Drizzle before they ban Manaphy, something that truly is broken because of rain.

I concur with the other guy who responded to this - I don't necessarily agree that banning Drizzle, or even its abusers is the way to go at all. I agree that testing Manaphy primarily then seeing how Rain is afterward is the way to go. But given the amount of people advocating Drizzle's outright ban and brokenness, I felt that I should defend it - and in the event that something is broken about Rain without Manaphy, I was suggesting that it was the abusers and abilities which were more at fault than the weather itself. Admittedly I gave few reasons initially, but this would be because I do not necessarily believe it to be true.
 
@Idon'tusehackedpokemon No, if the opposing team has rain, you can counter it with a Swift Swimmer.

As well, I also like the Drizzle Clause. Just add banning Hydration and it's all good.

Although Hydration isn't exactly broken on Vaporeon....Wish + Protect provides more turns than Rest spam if you want to stall stuff out.
 
Well, to use an example from 4th Gen, where rain was very similar, but lacked Politoed - how common was it? It was viable yes but by no means common, which in general can be taken as it not being a dominant playstyle. Now think that this is the Rain that we reduce it to if we ban Drizzle - and consider the other vastly improved weathers which on every turn can reset the weather with a mere switch. This is why I see Rain as being unviable.

In any case, it's not merely the Damp Rock, extra moveslot and turn count that neuters Rain without Drizzle. The fact that a turn must be used to cast Rain both makes the abusable turns 7, and gives the opponent a free switch or setup oppurtunity. It hinders your switching, because doing so wastes Rain turns - so if your sweepers can be walled, clever switching can stall them out until Rain goes down and the opponent counterattacks. With Permarain, things can repeatedly be worn down with little fear of Rain dropping. These are some of the non-tangible reasons why Rain without Drizzle is much less effective.



I concur with the other guy who responded to this - I don't necessarily agree that banning Drizzle, or even its abusers is the way to go at all. I agree that testing Manaphy primarily then seeing how Rain is afterward is the way to go. But given the amount of people advocating Drizzle's outright ban and brokenness, I felt that I should defend it - and in the event that something is broken about Rain without Manaphy, I was suggesting that it was the abusers and abilities which were more at fault than the weather itself. Admittedly I gave few reasons initially, but this would be because I do not necessarily believe it to be true.
I feel I must counter this argument with my own. I would ask anyone here to create a team that could withstand the onslaught of these three incredibly fast, incredibly powerful pokemon, as well as their supporters, like Nattorei without going incredibly out of their way and devoting an entire teamslot (at least) to a poke specifically designed to counter these threats in such a way that makes it unviable when not doing so (ie Psych Up metagross as an Inconsistent counter). If someone is able to do so in a manageable way, I will recede my argument. Yet I fear that such a team may not exist. If we are being forced to hamper our teams in order to better withstand the onslaught of Drizzle, then something is wrong. That is the very definition of overcentralization. Further, I severely doubt it is Manaphy that breaks Drizzle, and firmly believe it may be the other way around. I believe Manaphy must be tested solely when and if Drizzle has been banned.
 
This was taken from the OP of the Round 1 Suspect Thread:

Philip7086 said:
You will also be allowed to nominate Uber Pokemon which you believe should be brought down and tested the next round.

Assuming that this still applies, I think that Manaphy should be banned. It would give us a chance to see how Drizzle does without this bitch screwing around. This would appease everyone who says that Manaphy is the broken factor and that Drizzle should be tested without it.

However, should we then find Drizzle to still be broken, we could simply nominate Manaphy to be brought down for further testing, as Philip said we could. This would appease anyone who says that a Drizzle ban makes Manaphy alright.

Personally, I think this is the closest thing that we are going to get to a compromise (short of making a Drizzle + Swift Swim clause).
 
To not have drizzle banned and sandstream.....why don't we just make a same-type Pokemon clause. So people will only be able to use one type of Pokemon and not two. So if you use drizzletoad then you can't use any other water types.

It's just an idea because I really hate the banning ability thing. Inconsistent is whatever but anymore abilities is just arg. It makes things difficult.
 
This was taken from the OP of the Round 1 Suspect Thread:



Assuming that this still applies, I think that Manaphy should be banned. It would give us a chance to see how Drizzle does without this bitch screwing around. This would appease everyone who says that Manaphy is the broken factor and that Drizzle should be tested without it.

However, should we then find Drizzle to still be broken, we could simply nominate Manaphy to be brought down for further testing, as Philip said we could. This would appease anyone who says that a Drizzle ban makes Manaphy alright.

Personally, I think this is the closest thing that we are going to get to a compromise (short of making a Drizzle + Swift Swim clause).
Very few find Manaphy the broken one. It is clear that it should be Manaphy being tested after the removal of Drizzle. The main rain abusers remain as Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops, and are more the reason for the "brokenness" of Drizzle

To not have drizzle banned and sandstream.....why don't we just make a same-type Pokemon clause. So people will only be able to use one type of Pokemon and not two. So if you use drizzletoad then you can't use any other water types.

It's just an idea because I really hate the banning ability thing. Inconsistent is whatever but anymore abilities is just arg. It makes things difficult.
So in your mind completely obliterating all semblance of what we know of teambuilding is preferable to the banning of a single ability? That is not a good idea
 
masterful said:
Very few find Manaphy the broken one. It is clear that it should be Manaphy being tested after the removal of Drizzle. The main rain abusers remain as Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops, and are more the reason for the "brokenness" of Drizzle

Don't shoot the messenger. I don't actually think that Kingdra/Ludi/Kabutops are broken, though I must admit that the majority of Smogon appears to. I was just trying to think of a way to give everyone what they want (an impossible task) without making absurd new clauses.

masterful said:
So in your mind completely obliterating all semblance of what we know of teambuilding is preferable to the banning of a single ability? That is not a good idea

That's what I was thinking, but I was afraid of being so completely blunt.
 
Don't shoot the messenger. I don't actually think that Kingdra/Ludi/Kabutops are broken, though I must admit that the majority of Smogon appears to. I was just trying to think of a way to give everyone what they want (an impossible task) without making absurd new clauses.



That's what I was thinking, but I was afraid of being so completely blunt.

I think Kingdra might be broken, and maybe ludicolo, but I highly doubt the rest are, including kabutops.
 
Don't shoot the messenger. I don't actually think that Kingdra/Ludi/Kabutops are broken, though I must admit that the majority of Smogon appears to. I was just trying to think of a way to give everyone what they want (an impossible task) without making absurd new clauses.



That's what I was thinking, but I was afraid of being so completely blunt.
I'm not shooting the messenger. I'm shooting the person who comes up with the message. Drizzle is broken because it allows three certain pokemon to obliterate teams with absurd speed and boosted STABs. It is the combination of the three, not each alone, that breaks Drizzle.
 
Shaving off one turn of setup makes a huge difference. I know that this "doesn't exist" yet, but just ask Ditto.

I apologize for veering off topic, but this is really irrelevant. Ditto is successful without its setup turn for a totally different reason - because it's one of the shittiest pokemon in the game untransformed. Instant transformation means that, suddenly, Dory can't OHKO it if it comes in on anything but Earthquake, for example.

However, say you have a Rain Dance Kingdra or Ludicolo (hell even Uxie). If they get a free switch, they WILL get Rain Dance up and all of them have the offensive or supportive prowess to do so. Ditto is an extreme example to compare to the setting up of weather manually; to compare them would only be viable if each rain setter was lvl 50 or otherwise heavily disabled.

On a side note, has anybody tried Scarf Obamasnow (on a non-hail team)? It's surprisingly good at switching in due to a grass typing (no I'm not fucking insane) and gets in on lots of stuff. Hilariously, unless you switch in on Rock Slide or X-scissor, it's a Dory counter. Similarly, baiting a low-health Kingdra to use Surf (or any other rain sweeper for that matter) lets Obama in free. Unfortunately I can't say much about the offensive prowess of Obamasnow... 92 (iirc) SpA is VERY modest and it really needs some support to work. However, with support from entry hazards, it will often force in Politoed, which you can energy ball/Grass Knot on the switch.

Finally, Toxic Spikes are an incredible entry hazard. The only things in this meta that are common that absorb them are Nidoking and Tentacruel (and the odd Nidoqueen, Roserade, and Toxicroak), which are uncommon at best. If you can't spin them much of your whole opponent's team will soon be afflicted with Poison, which allows you to do lots of damage. Hail works well in tandem.
 
Am I the only one finding it odd that, on the higher ranks of the ladder, there are absolutely NO RAIN TEAMS? Like, none at all. Been battling for over an hour without facing a single rain team.
 
The number of obscure rain removers I'm seeing is just ridiculous. Seriously, all it is doing is just annoying me when I use a Rain Dance team and not doing crap when I'm running something else. I'm seeing stuff like Sandstorm Nattorei, Choice Scarf Altaria and all sorts of weird stuff. I've even seen a team with all four weather changers (sorry Hippowdon, Tyranitar was in, not you), and I'm just flabbergasted at the overpreparation people are doing against weather. You really don't need that many checks to stop Rain/Sun/Sand/Hail, peoples.
 
I'm not shooting the messenger. I'm shooting the person who comes up with the message. Drizzle is broken because it allows three certain pokemon to obliterate teams with absurd speed and boosted STABs. It is the combination of the three, not each alone, that breaks Drizzle.

I will respond to this post by using one of your other posts.
Do you remember making the following post?

I feel I must counter this argument with my own. I would ask anyone here to create a team that could withstand the onslaught of these three incredibly fast, incredibly powerful pokemon, as well as their supporters, like Nattorei without going incredibly out of their way and devoting an entire teamslot (at least) to a poke specifically designed to counter these threats in such a way that makes it unviable when not doing so (ie Psych Up metagross as an Inconsistent counter). If someone is able to do so in a manageable way, I will recede my argument. Yet I fear that such a team may not exist. If we are being forced to hamper our teams in order to better withstand the onslaught of Drizzle, then something is wrong. That is the very definition of overcentralization. Further, I severely doubt it is Manaphy that breaks Drizzle, and firmly believe it may be the other way around. I believe Manaphy must be tested solely when and if Drizzle has been banned.

I hope you remember. Let's analyze the first part. I have made such a team, though I'm not going to post it just yet because I don't want people to recognize me on PO. I don't use the name SlimMan for that same reason. The point it that such a team does exist.

Let's analyze the second part. You say that firmly believe that Manaphy is not broken but that the Swift Swimmers are. I am the opposite. You believe one thing, I believe another. We're both biased and will likely never convince each other that we're right.





Annnnnyway,
The number of obscure rain removers I'm seeing is just ridiculous. Seriously, all it is doing is just annoying me when I use a Rain Dance team and not doing crap when I'm running something else. I'm seeing stuff like Sandstorm Nattorei, Choice Scarf Altaria and all sorts of weird stuff. I've even seen a team with all four weather changers (sorry Hippowdon, Tyranitar was in, not you), and I'm just flabbergasted at the overpreparation people are doing against weather. You really don't need that many checks to stop Rain/Sun/Sand/Hail, peoples.
QFT
 
I will respond to this post by using one of your other posts.
Do you remember making the following post?



I hope you remember. Let's analyze the first part. I have made such a team, though I'm not going to post it just yet because I don't want people to recognize me on PO. I don't use the name SlimMan for that same reason. The point it that such a team does exist.

Let's analyze the second part. You say that firmly believe that Manaphy is not broken but that the Swift Swimmers are. I am the opposite. You believe one thing, I believe another. We're both biased and will likely never convince each other that we're right.





Annnnnyway,

QFT
Is argument not the point of this thread? What I'm saying is that Drizzle makes the Broken Trio broken regardless of Manaphy, and that Manaphy sans Drizzle is not a huge threat because of the vast number of new heavy hitters who can take its attacks and retaliate with its own. And in regards to your team, you can't really say that it fulfills my requirements until I can actually see it. If a team has to be built to counter Rain to the point of being hampered to be viable than that is a problem. If your team does not suffer from that, I will be impressed.
 
Doesn't Burungeru specially defense burungeru wall Kingdra, Kabutops & Ludicolo?
Water STABS are canceled out, fighting moves are out too (low kick/focus blast) leaving what stone edge & Giga drain?
Maybe kabutops kills it, but I doubt the other two do.
 
Am I the only one finding it odd that, on the higher ranks of the ladder, there are absolutely NO RAIN TEAMS? Like, none at all. Been battling for over an hour without facing a single rain team.

I'm on the suck-ass ranks and the ratio is 75% Sand - 25% Rain already, so I don't even want to imagine the higher ones...
 
Doesn't Burungeru specially defense burungeru wall Kingdra, Kabutops & Ludicolo?
Water STABS are canceled out, fighting moves are out too (low kick/focus blast) leaving what stone edge & Giga drain?
Maybe kabutops kills it, but I doubt the other two do.
A good rain team can stall it out relatively easily, and Ludi can just laugh in its face
 
Doesn't Burungeru specially defense burungeru wall Kingdra, Kabutops & Ludicolo?
Water STABS are canceled out, fighting moves are out too (low kick/focus blast) leaving what stone edge & Giga drain?
Maybe kabutops kills it, but I doubt the other two do.

Stone Edge hits like a brick (literally) and Grass Knot with its 100 (iirc) power vs. Burungeru is unfavorable. Also you forget that nearly every rain team carries Zapdos (which hits it hard with thunder) and Manaphy (which can just brute force its way through Burungeru or set up CMs on it).
 
The evidence is playtesting. I've played with Ludicolo and Kabutops briefly and can easily tell the difference between 6-7 turns of rain rather than infinite. I haven't played a match without Kingdra for last the 100+ matches or so, either.

Playtesting, huh? I am completely convinced now. I mean, these citations of being able to tell that infinite turns is longer then 6-7 turns is clearly proof of their brokenness in Rain. And clearly, the high usage of Kingdra means he's broken. Clearly, you can't be implying that with ZERO game mechanic changes for Kabutops, Kingdra, or Ludicolo, that they are suddenly broken simply because the rain lasts longer, could you?

Meanwhile, I personally made a rain team to test brokenness (possibly the best way to get a feel of whether something is broken or not), and I will tell you right now, while Kabutops, Kingdra and Ludicolo are great sweepers, they aren't broken. Paralysis cripples all three, and the old fashioned Skarm/Bliss core shuts them down pretty easily. Tentacruel hard counters special Ludicolo, Defensive Gyarados counters DDKingdra, Kabutops can't beat Skarmory, Nattorei is a 3HKO from Specs Rain Boosted STAB Hydro Pump. Now, take a look at that statement again, because people misconstrue that very often. The highest powered attack that Kingdra has can't even get a two hit KO. Nattorei can switch in, TWave and cripple a Kingdra before it has the chance to kill, and let's not forget the 80% accuracy on Hydro Miss.

Interestingly enough, I also found that something like CM Manaphy does exceptionally well against every single one of those counters I just listed while also being one of the strongest and bulkiest pokemon on the team at the same time.



Shaving off one turn of setup makes a huge difference. I know that this "doesn't exist" yet, but just ask Ditto.

True, but no turn of setup is shaved off. You can't switch in Politoed setting up Rain, and switch to a Swift Swimmer on the same turn. It still takes a turn to set up. The only difference is the duration, and what I'm saying is that for them to be broken on that 9th turn, or the 10th turn, they had to have been broken on the 8th turn. I simply don't think this is the case.
 
masterful said:
Is argument not the point of this thread?
In what way had I stated otherwise?


masterful said:
What I'm saying is that Drizzle makes the Broken Trio broken regardless of Manaphy, and that Manaphy sans Drizzle is not a huge threat because of the vast number of new heavy hitters who can take its attacks and retaliate with its own. And in regards to your team, you can't really say that it fulfills my requirements until I can actually see it. If a team has to be built to counter Rain to the point of being hampered to be viable than that is a problem. If your team does not suffer from that, I will be impressed.

You are right that Manaphy in no way influences the Broken Trio. You are also right that although my team meets your requirements, my choice not to post leaves me with no proof.

However, in no way must a team be hampered to unviability simply to deal with rain. I hardly think I should need to list rain counters, as it has been established already that that is largely irrelevant to either of our arguments.

A good argument must be tailored to each individual recipient. I'm not sure how to work mine for you yet, so I can't really defend it well. But I am able to safely say that
not rain-weak team =/= unviable team
Not unless it does stupid and unnecessary things to make it not rain-weak.


edit: I'm not arguing that rain isn't broken. Which is what I think you're arguing against. I'm arguing that it is not the Broken Trio which makes rain broken. Well, it probably still does actually. I only say that because I don't lose to them.

But me not being rain-weak doesn't really have any bearing on if they're broken or not. There were a few 4th Gen teams that weren't Garchomp-weak. It was still broken.

Though if I had to say whether to ban those three or Drizzle, I most certainly say Drizzle.
 
I apologize for veering off topic, but this is really irrelevant. Ditto is successful without its setup turn for a totally different reason - because it's one of the shittiest pokemon in the game untransformed. Instant transformation means that, suddenly, Dory can't OHKO it if it comes in on anything but Earthquake, for example.

However, say you have a Rain Dance Kingdra or Ludicolo (hell even Uxie). If they get a free switch, they WILL get Rain Dance up and all of them have the offensive or supportive prowess to do so. Ditto is an extreme example to compare to the setting up of weather manually; to compare them would only be viable if each rain setter was lvl 50 or otherwise heavily disabled.

It's not irrelevant because it's a very comparable situation. That turn of setup can mean the difference between killing your opponent and not killing him. The fact that ditto was a terrible pokemon before eccentric just means that -1 turn of setup can make something that's NU good, what is it doing to pokemon that were already decent?

On a side note, has anybody tried Scarf Obamasnow (on a non-hail team)? It's surprisingly good at switching in due to a grass typing (no I'm not fucking insane) and gets in on lots of stuff. Hilariously, unless you switch in on Rock Slide or X-scissor, it's a Dory counter. Similarly, baiting a low-health Kingdra to use Surf (or any other rain sweeper for that matter) lets Obama in free. Unfortunately I can't say much about the offensive prowess of Obamasnow... 92 (iirc) SpA is VERY modest and it really needs some support to work. However, with support from entry hazards, it will often force in Politoed, which you can energy ball/Grass Knot on the switch.

This is funny. First of all it's Abomasnow lol. Second of all, saying that it's a dory counter if it doesn't come in on 2/3 of its attacking moves is stupid. That means that butterfree is a counter too if it comes in on EQ. The worst thing is, Dory is still faster than you even without sandstorm and will proceed to nail you.

Doesn't Burungeru specially defense burungeru wall Kingdra, Kabutops & Ludicolo?
Water STABS are canceled out, fighting moves are out too (low kick/focus blast) leaving what stone edge & Giga drain?
Maybe kabutops kills it, but I doubt the other two do.

Burungeru walls nothing. Ludicolo has giga drain which will probably outstall you until it crits. If it doesn't then I get you have a chance if you recover spam. But if you run into a physical variant instead then say goodbye. Kabutops will kill you with +2 stone edge. Kingdra will DD in your face 3 times, then rest/lum/chesto and outrage sweep your team.
 
Playtesting, huh? I am completely convinced now

I'd be more convinced by playtesting than theorymon anyday.

Firstly, 6-7 turns is harder to play Rain Dance with than infinite. I remember in 4th gen UU, one of the ways that Rain Dance was beaten was to stall out the rain turns (which is done easier than you would imagine). Now if you were to put infinite rain, you'd be switching around in vain waiting for something that's not going to come. Secondly, since rain only lasted 6-7 turns, dedicated Rain Dancers were used on the team, which 1) made you lose 2-3 moveslots over 2-3 Pokemon and 2) ruined the synergy of rain teams. Now, with Politoed bringing in rain just by switching in, you can now run a whole host of different Pokemon to patch in weaknesses and what not. With Drizzle, rain becomes a whole lot more flexible than the rigid 3 dedicated Rain Dancers + 3 Swift Swimmers of 4th gen Rain Dance.

Paralysis cripples all three, and the old fashioned Skarm/Bliss core shuts them down pretty easily.

So?? Paralysis cripples Skymin. It cripples Darkrai. It cripples Deoxys-A/N. Doesn't stop them getting booted out with a supermajority.

Kabutops can't beat Skarmory

Adamant +2 Kabutops LO Waterfall vs 252/252+ Skarmory (Don't know who runs this, but people who use SpD Skarm would suffer even more): 86.53% - 102.40%

Nattorei is a 3HKO from Specs Rain Boosted STAB Hydro Pump. Now, take a look at that statement again, because people misconstrue that very often. The highest powered attack that Kingdra has can't even get a two hit KO.

Do you also remember that this is a resisted attack?? Don't forget that Nattorei can't OHKO Kingdra in return either, so you'd either use Leech Seed (which any good player would just switch over to their Grass-type) or use Thunder Wave and watch your main Rain check get put into irreparable range, staring down the barrel of possibly 3 more Swift Swimmers (depends on how offensive your opponent is).

EDIT:

Anyway, Ninetales is better and worse than I thought it would be. Unboosted Ninetales completely sucks and can't kill anything. However, I've been using CM-ChestoRest Ninetales and overpowered Blissey with it, hehe (CMed up to +2, Rested off Thunder Wave/Seismic Toss damage and 2HKOed it with Fire Blast).
 
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