Other than the fact that Kingdra IS on occasion used in Ubers alongside Palkia, I don't want it banned from OU to only be used in Ubers because it is still a good but not uber poke that is acceptable for OU (without permanent weather).
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Other than the fact that Kingdra IS on occasion used in Ubers alongside Palkia, I don't want it banned from OU to only be used in Ubers because it is still a good but not uber poke that is acceptable for OU (without permanent weather).
The only way that would happen is if there's a significant break in the strength of Swift Swimmers, like if you had a scale of power like this:
Manaphy
Kingdra
Ludi/Kabutops
Some other "unknown threat"
-----limit at which something becomes broken----
no swift swim pokemon at all
----limit at which something becomes usable----
every other Swift Swim Pokemon
and that, frankly, is absurd.
That's a total of... 2 tests. 1 to get the trio out of the way, another to find the rest. Hardly unreasonable. The whole reason for the UU suspect system is so we can quickly proceed with the next suspect testing in case the previous one didn't catch everything.
Why wouldn't it be all the users? If Swift Swim/Drizzle is the problem, then Luvdisc and the like would be part of the problem.
If the "normal" swift swimmers still force everyone to pack a few gimmick counters, than they're broken. It doesn't matter if there's a whole bunch of them, the minimal amount of time saved by going with a Drizzle/Swift Swim ban wouldn't justify the slippery slope possibilities or the killed playstyles.
Poliwrath simply isn't ban material. It is a good pokemon with rain, sure, but it needs a turn to set up. I don't see why people think that poliwrath should be banned when there are so many other pokemon that only need one setup turn and then can sweep entire teams that aren't even being considered for ban, and even though they don't give +6 attack they don't take half of their hp either.
I may be wrong, but I noticed that people are just forgetting about pokemon that are probably broken in the rain, like the trio and manaphy, and want to ban just about anything that may be dangerous in the rain. That said, lots of things can be dangerous and shouldn't be banned, pokemon like poliwrath, qwilfish, gorebyss and huntail HAVE reliable counters and aren't overpowered in the rain, they are just good and able to deal with OU threats. I see DD dragons that can sweep entire teams, outspeed or handle these water types that people see as possible threats after a trio/manaphy ban and that need specific counters, but people don't see them as broken. I really wonder why.
I may be wrong, but I noticed that people are just forgetting about pokemon that are probably broken in the rain, like the trio and manaphy, and want to ban just about anything that may be dangerous in the rain. That said, lots of things can be dangerous and shouldn't be banned, pokemon like poliwrath, qwilfish, gorebyss and huntail HAVE reliable counters and aren't overpowered in the rain, they are just good and able to deal with OU threats. I see DD dragons that can sweep entire teams, outspeed or handle these water types that people see as possible threats after a trio/manaphy ban and that need specific counters, but people don't see them as broken. I really wonder why.
Jeez, these last couple of pages of pages have been ridiculous. I'm suffering from serious insomnia, but here's my thoughts on all of this.
We need to ban drizzle, as it's obviously the problem. To the poster that talked about the "slippery slope" of banning abilities, do you not remember the last suspect test when an ability was banned? I always thought the goal of this community was to create a desirable metagame (granted, that's highly subjective) with as few bans as possible. But in spite of this commitment, people are suggesting we make three bans on pokemon, two of which weren't even good enough for standard last gen, instead of drizzle? Permanent rain is about the only thing these guys got in the generation shift, and I honestly can't believe people are claiming this isn't where the problem lies. The rain "playstyle" of heavy offense can still be achieved with a damp rock. Rain stall can get fucked. Sorry, but preserving "a certain style of play" means shit. What if my preferred style of play is to spam evasion modifiers? Oh, wait, I'm not allowed to enjoy that on the ladder, and I kinda just have to deal with it.
But even ignoring how broken drizzle obviously is, I'm really shocked that you guys are even having fun at this point. I've been keeping off the ladder lately since almost every team I face factors in a permanent weather condition. And why is that? It's because two conditions are actually good (rain and sand, though sand really only has two abusers period) and the other two are being spammed more than they deserve in order to just stand a chance against them. And unlike sand, whose two main stars are brand new, we know these swift swimmers very well.
As I said before, drizzle is the only addition this proposed "trio" has gotten in B/W. I really don't know about you guys, but does anyone else think about how insane it is that Latios and Mew are still rolling around standard just because people don't think to use them enough? Some of the best pokemon in the game are being punted off teams in order to make way for Nattorei and priority users because of drizzle. When people are putting hail on Vaporeon, then it's not just adjusting to the metagame, that's overcentralization to a tee.
We need to ban drizzle, as it's obviously the problem. To the poster that talked about the "slippery slope" of banning abilities, do you not remember the last suspect test when an ability was banned? I always thought the goal of this community was to create a desirable metagame (granted, that's highly subjective) with as few bans as possible. But in spite of this commitment, people are suggesting we make three bans on pokemon, two of which weren't even good enough for standard last gen, instead of drizzle? Permanent rain is about the only thing these guys got in the generation shift, and I honestly can't believe people are claiming this isn't where the problem lies. The rain "playstyle" of heavy offense can still be achieved with a damp rock. Rain stall can get fucked. Sorry, but preserving "a certain style of play" means shit. What if my preferred style of play is to spam evasion modifiers? Oh, wait, I'm not allowed to enjoy that on the ladder, and I kinda just have to deal with it.
But even ignoring how broken drizzle obviously is, I'm really shocked that you guys are even having fun at this point. I've been keeping off the ladder lately since almost every team I face factors in a permanent weather condition. And why is that? It's because two conditions are actually good (rain and sand, though sand really only has two abusers period) and the other two are being spammed more than they deserve in order to just stand a chance against them. And unlike sand, whose two main stars are brand new, we know these swift swimmers very well.
As I said before, drizzle is the only addition this proposed "trio" has gotten in B/W. I really don't know about you guys, but does anyone else think about how insane it is that Latios and Mew are still rolling around standard just because people don't think to use them enough? Some of the best pokemon in the game are being punted off teams in order to make way for Nattorei and priority users because of drizzle. When people are putting hail on Vaporeon, then it's not just adjusting to the metagame, that's overcentralization to a tee.
I think testing Manaphy before Drizzle would be best. I've been playing on the PO server a lot where Manaphy is banned from OU... Drizzle is hardly a problem. Sand Stream is definitely superior there.
Eventhough it was close, Gen 4 Manaphy was Uber without infinite Rain and buffed Tail Glow.
Eventhough it was close, Gen 4 Manaphy was Uber without infinite Rain and buffed Tail Glow.
I agree, but Mew isn't nearly as troublesome as Latios. I'm using SpecsLatios atm and I just think it's ridiculous how I can still OHKO pokemon with DM at -2. If they're dragon, then even at -4.
i've said this already in a post that none bothered to read some 11 pgs ago if drizzle was the issue all play-styles for rain would be broken not just offense + swuft swim is not broken otherwise more than just 3 of it's users would be problems (even then the only 1 that actually needs to be banned is kingdra) so it falls on the rain abusers who take each separate element together only two of which are actually broken. (manaphy + to a lesser extent kingdra)
edit: it was reposted + improved on 49 if any1 will bother 2 read it since ppl are chronically arguing points nulled by that post.
But, Manaphy may not be broken in Gen 5 without Drizzle.
I'd rather ban an ability which makes multiple pokemon broken, than ban a pokemon, and then ban the ability, without knowing if the ability is broken.
And, Manaphy isn't even rain's problem. Yes, it's annoying, yes, the new Tail Glow is a serious pai, but it's only Base 100 speed, and 100/100/100 [Probobly univested] defenses. Anything faster with a decent amount of power can force Manaphy to spam rest every turn, shutting him down, until a crit will KO. If Manaphy attacks, then it's easy to revenge.
A physically defensive Calm Mind Manaphy, on the other hand, is a pain to take down, and will laugh in your face while it sets up to +6/+6, and then proceed to sweep you. But Jirachi does that too.
Anyway, I'm gonna try out a weatherless team, with my Guts+Status Orb Roopushin, and CB Azumarill. Together, they can probobly handle the main attackers of Rain and Sand, and are good with normal teams as well. Probobly TR Ranku as well, because he's a monster.
I'd rather ban an ability which makes multiple pokemon broken, than ban a pokemon, and then ban the ability, without knowing if the ability is broken.
And, Manaphy isn't even rain's problem. Yes, it's annoying, yes, the new Tail Glow is a serious pai, but it's only Base 100 speed, and 100/100/100 [Probobly univested] defenses. Anything faster with a decent amount of power can force Manaphy to spam rest every turn, shutting him down, until a crit will KO. If Manaphy attacks, then it's easy to revenge.
A physically defensive Calm Mind Manaphy, on the other hand, is a pain to take down, and will laugh in your face while it sets up to +6/+6, and then proceed to sweep you. But Jirachi does that too.
Anyway, I'm gonna try out a weatherless team, with my Guts+Status Orb Roopushin, and CB Azumarill. Together, they can probobly handle the main attackers of Rain and Sand, and are good with normal teams as well. Probobly TR Ranku as well, because he's a monster.
I think Cm Manaphy is also somewhat broken by Drizzle, not the other way around
I'm pretty sure with Drizzle banned, Manaphy will once again prove to be a nuisance with Damp Rock dancers.
Breloom= anti weather
Not really. Ice Beam or Outrage from Rain teams, Fire moves from Sun teams. And Breloom is really too frail to take hits from Sand teams.
I mean, Breloom isn't by all means perfect. I'm pretty much going off it's typing + techpunch = forced switches, which is very nice with spore and SD. Then there's the simple fact it has the best priority move combo, which is nice vs these speed buffs.
Granted that you're investing a good amount of EVs into HP, Kingdra's LO max atk Outrage will fail to OHKO (if you're using the specific 132 HP spread, it's 2.17% of the time). By "too frail to take hits from Sand teams", you pretty much mean Garchomp. It's still great how Ttar, Hippo, and Dory get demolished.
When I said weather, I meant Rain and Sand. Sun is whatever.
apearently you don't realize the point of suspect is to create a ballenced meta w/ AS MANY VIABLE PLAY-STYLES AS POSSIBLE + rain is not that viable w/o drizzle the minimization of bans is merely smogon idealistic (not necessarily realistic) policy.
Rain stall flat out dies without permanant rain. No, I'm not going to run stallers who have to run 3 moves and rain dance. I'm not going to run a parasect who loses the ability to stall amazingly well after the eight turns are up. Rain offense will live on, but any other play style created from an OU drizzle will die. This has already been discussed however, and it seems like people have agreed that anything that isn't offensive rain doesn't actually matter because it doesn't see play. This is ignoring the fact that drizzle only became available on a standard mon this gen, but yes offensive rain is indeed preferred to rain's other options.
Valkyries brought this up earlier, but can someone detail all of the differences 8 turns of rain brings in comparison to unlimited rain? Being unable to counter kingdra in inifinite rain won't allow you to counter him in 8 turns. Natt is still 3HKO'd by a Specsdra under the rain, infinte or not. Kabutops still manhandles things. Ludicolo still isn't countered by Nattorei.
Yes, one turn of setup is a big deal. Rain dance can be taunted, and with only eight turns of rain, the weather can be stalled out with appropriate switchs ins and proper prediction. While your opponent is using rain dance, you can lay down stealth rock, nab that speed boost, get off that shell smash (although I'm pretty sure that if Electrode sees a Cloyster, he won't be an idiot and allow for free setup), etc.
But a good rain team still won't stop you from setting the weather up. MH Tornelos can still run Rain dance. The same MH Tornelos 2HKO'S NATTOREI with Specs Hurricane. Max/Max specially defensive Natt takes 52.8% - 62.2%. Life orb Tornelos still has a chance to 2HKO, dealing 45.5% - 54%. What are you going to switch in? Tyranitar to wall and change the weather? Not a counter thanks to hammer arm. Hippodown? Still 2HKO'd by Life orb timid hurricane. Then Tornelos uses rain dance again. Blissey? Also dealt with thanks to hammer arm.
But this is all theorymon. Tornelos can be picked off by any pokemon while he's using rain dance. Great. Now how do you stall out the incoming kingdra, ludicolo, and kabutops that will be showing up? What do you do to counter them? They apparently cannot be countered now. So during those eight turns, what are you going to be countering them with? Sac a poke and then switch in tyranitar? Then kill off the rain dance user who tries to set up again? Sorry, but that's unacceptable. Already, it is considered a problem that you HAVE to run Tyranitar and change the weather in order to beat rain. So why should I need him even when rain isn't infinite. If you're stalling rain for eight (or six) turns straight, then what specifically does infinite rain do to to keep you from stalling them at least a little bit? What are you going to be doing to the eight turns of rain that allow you to stall them out?
I make this post because I'm honestly a little confused. If rain is broken now and impossible to counter outside of weather changers, then how IS it possible to counter under eight turns? Sure, rain teams get gimped when fighting sand and hail thanks to the fact that snow/t-tar/hippo only have to switch in once and then don't bother switching back in until you set up rain again. But outside of those three? You aren't going to be switching for a full eight turns, that doesn't work against any decent player. Ever. The only glaring difference I might see is that rain is now taking out 2-3 of your pokemon instead of your whole team before they have to set the rain back up.
Valkyries brought this up earlier, but can someone detail all of the differences 8 turns of rain brings in comparison to unlimited rain? Being unable to counter kingdra in inifinite rain won't allow you to counter him in 8 turns. Natt is still 3HKO'd by a Specsdra under the rain, infinte or not. Kabutops still manhandles things. Ludicolo still isn't countered by Nattorei.
Yes, one turn of setup is a big deal. Rain dance can be taunted, and with only eight turns of rain, the weather can be stalled out with appropriate switchs ins and proper prediction. While your opponent is using rain dance, you can lay down stealth rock, nab that speed boost, get off that shell smash (although I'm pretty sure that if Electrode sees a Cloyster, he won't be an idiot and allow for free setup), etc.
But a good rain team still won't stop you from setting the weather up. MH Tornelos can still run Rain dance. The same MH Tornelos 2HKO'S NATTOREI with Specs Hurricane. Max/Max specially defensive Natt takes 52.8% - 62.2%. Life orb Tornelos still has a chance to 2HKO, dealing 45.5% - 54%. What are you going to switch in? Tyranitar to wall and change the weather? Not a counter thanks to hammer arm. Hippodown? Still 2HKO'd by Life orb timid hurricane. Then Tornelos uses rain dance again. Blissey? Also dealt with thanks to hammer arm.
But this is all theorymon. Tornelos can be picked off by any pokemon while he's using rain dance. Great. Now how do you stall out the incoming kingdra, ludicolo, and kabutops that will be showing up? What do you do to counter them? They apparently cannot be countered now. So during those eight turns, what are you going to be countering them with? Sac a poke and then switch in tyranitar? Then kill off the rain dance user who tries to set up again? Sorry, but that's unacceptable. Already, it is considered a problem that you HAVE to run Tyranitar and change the weather in order to beat rain. So why should I need him even when rain isn't infinite. If you're stalling rain for eight (or six) turns straight, then what specifically does infinite rain do to to keep you from stalling them at least a little bit? What are you going to be doing to the eight turns of rain that allow you to stall them out?
I make this post because I'm honestly a little confused. If rain is broken now and impossible to counter outside of weather changers, then how IS it possible to counter under eight turns? Sure, rain teams get gimped when fighting sand and hail thanks to the fact that snow/t-tar/hippo only have to switch in once and then don't bother switching back in until you set up rain again. But outside of those three? You aren't going to be switching for a full eight turns, that doesn't work against any decent player. Ever. The only glaring difference I might see is that rain is now taking out 2-3 of your pokemon instead of your whole team before they have to set the rain back up.
I know that it's a completely different game, but look back at 4th Gen. There has been basically no change at all to Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo, yet there was little to no usage of Rain Dance teams in OU because, to be quite honest, it sucked. You act like in 7 turns Rain will totally tear shit up, but if that were true any Drizzle match would only take 10 or so turns, which is obviously not the case. The thing that is dangerous about Drizzle is not that all the sweepers are OHKOing left and right, but that the Rain doesn't go away, so they can just keep pounding away at your team so you have to keep playing on the defensive. With Rain Dance you only have to play defensively for 8 turns, and then all their swift swimmers are weak and slow and you can rip through their entire team.
And to everyone else who keeps saying "rain stall herp derp," you're all being hypocrites. You keep saying that by getting rid of Drizzle we are getting rid of a "legitimate" playstyle, but to make it so anyone even uses Rain Stall, we'd have to ban all the Rain Offense Pokemon. You prefer that we get rid of Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc. just so that Parasect gets a to share the limelight? Not to mention Rain Stall will always be overshadowed by Sand Stall, because Hippowdon is an actual asset to the team, instead of having a weak little frog that can't take a hit just so you can use an otherwise shit pokemon.
i'm pretty sure the real reason last gen drizzle was banned is that none was willing to put the nessisary work in to balance rain offense, the only rain abusers that actually break rain are manaphy (ev it like crocune + in the move set switch sleep talk for ice beam w/ hydration tell me how that isn't overpowered) + kingdra (in rain it's speed is insane + it's stab go from only 2 pokes resisting to effectively none + 75/95/95/95/95/85 is not bad in it's own right) without those two rain offense might need maybe 1 more ban if that to be 100% balanced.
I know this has already been discussed,but I still see no point in banning Swift Swim.
SS should only be banned if it's found broken on everything with SS and lets face it,Luvdisc isn't broken by any means.
It's kinda like Shadow Tag,which will inevitably be discussed. I believe ST should only be banned if everything WITH ST is deemed broken.
If Shandera,Gochi,AND Wobb are found broken,it only makes sense to ban Shadow Tag instead of the mons themselves.
Before you say anything about Garchomp,XienZo,if the Yache berry is what made Chomp broken,then it would only make sense to ban the berry if it was found broken on everything else with an ice weakness,which is obviously not the case. Flygon isn't doing jack with that Yache berry.
If Outrage is what made Mence broken,then ban Outrage....but Outrage was only found broken on Mence,so the only logical ban was Mence's.
What I'm trying to say is....only ban Swift Swim if it's found broken on ALL its abusers,but we all know Luvdisc and Qwilfish are not broken. SS is only found broken on Kingdra,Ludicolo,and Kabutops and I believe they should be the only ones banned,because offensive rain can still be used with Gorebyss,Qwilfish,Floatzel,etc. and trust me,it's still fun and we don't have to kill Drizzle.
I'd like to add that Gorebyss is definitely better than Kabutops IMO >.>
Gorebyss is bulkier,isn't priority weak and still hits hard....Shell Smash makes it better than Failtops....I've been using a rain team to get my voting rights(what better way to get something banned than using it to show how easy it is to rise in the ranks?) and I can see how sand can demolish rain.
T-tar can take quite a few hits to kill and with everything being so frail on a rain team,it can be hard to send it Politoed or any rain sweeper.
So far I've only lost to Sand teams,other rain teams,or very specialized rain counters.
SS should only be banned if it's found broken on everything with SS and lets face it,Luvdisc isn't broken by any means.
It's kinda like Shadow Tag,which will inevitably be discussed. I believe ST should only be banned if everything WITH ST is deemed broken.
If Shandera,Gochi,AND Wobb are found broken,it only makes sense to ban Shadow Tag instead of the mons themselves.
Before you say anything about Garchomp,XienZo,if the Yache berry is what made Chomp broken,then it would only make sense to ban the berry if it was found broken on everything else with an ice weakness,which is obviously not the case. Flygon isn't doing jack with that Yache berry.
If Outrage is what made Mence broken,then ban Outrage....but Outrage was only found broken on Mence,so the only logical ban was Mence's.
What I'm trying to say is....only ban Swift Swim if it's found broken on ALL its abusers,but we all know Luvdisc and Qwilfish are not broken. SS is only found broken on Kingdra,Ludicolo,and Kabutops and I believe they should be the only ones banned,because offensive rain can still be used with Gorebyss,Qwilfish,Floatzel,etc. and trust me,it's still fun and we don't have to kill Drizzle.
I'd like to add that Gorebyss is definitely better than Kabutops IMO >.>
Gorebyss is bulkier,isn't priority weak and still hits hard....Shell Smash makes it better than Failtops....I've been using a rain team to get my voting rights(what better way to get something banned than using it to show how easy it is to rise in the ranks?) and I can see how sand can demolish rain.
T-tar can take quite a few hits to kill and with everything being so frail on a rain team,it can be hard to send it Politoed or any rain sweeper.
So far I've only lost to Sand teams,other rain teams,or very specialized rain counters.
The only current rain sweepers who end up becoming weak and slow without the rain are kabutops and ludicolo. Perhaps gorebyss and omastar before the shell smash. But I digress, you are correct. It is possible to go on the defensive for eight turns as opposed to the entire match. However, I don't see rain teams flat out losing without the rain, I merely see them taking another turn to set the rain up again. What do you do once they do? Stall for eight more turns? And then eight more turns as the bulky rain user sets up rain dance again if the match continues? Setting up the rain is nowhere near as easy as simply having it last forever, not having to carry rain dance on any of your pokemon, and not having to play so offensively (drizzle matches don't last ten turns because the drizzle user can play conservatively, knowing that their weather isn't on a clock. It's not really fair to say that if you ask me). I will easily admit this.
I simply want to know if banning drizzle removes a broken element of a playstyle. Or does it just make it harder to play for those using it?
Why is it then, that damp rock was considered overpowering at one point in 4th gen UU? What was the big difference between pokemon in OU and UU that allowed rain to ravage one tier, while suck badly in the other? Personally, I think it was the weather changers in OU. Sure, drizzle has snover and hippotas. But how often were they used? And if I'm wrong about weather changers (tyranitar) in OU being what made OU rain suck, then what was it?
One other important thing to remember about rain dance is that on a good rain dance team you would essentially have more than one member who would have to forgo an item boost as well as a move slot. Its not simply just one member who needs to keep the rain up but ideally half of them should have rain dance packed on to keep the rain up, and at least two of them should be carrying a damp rock. Finally, you would also have the issue of one turn of vulnerability for the Pokemon setting up rain dance as they're open for a free attack (so chances are the Poke assigned to rain dance will be taking hits).
I would say that is quite a big sacrifice compared to the rain teams we have now, where essentially all that sacrifice is lumped into one decent pokemon. Moreover, keep in mind who are common rain dance starters like Electrode, and with this generation Tornelos/Voltos. While Electrode may not be as impressive as the other two Electrode was a popular way to start off rain dance because it was essentially the fastest rain dancer, so Electrode could avoid taunt and even use Taunt itself. Voltos/Tornelos would be more viable, stat-wise and ability wise especially, but keep in mind neither of these actually would gain any significant boosts from the rain other than Thunder, which would easily be walled by a ground type and in theory waste yet another turn of those precious 8 turns, as their stabs are not further amplified by the rain the way water type pokes do (on top of their ability which is activated by the rain). Course we're not even counting water absorbers or walls that would force a switch out, another waste of turn.
In essence its quite easy to waste at least half of those 8 turns with prediction, which isn't that difficult since the goal would be very hyper offense. Also there isn't that much speedy rain dancers - once Electrode and Voltos/Tornelos is gone things will be difficult as there isn't much pokes who would have the speed to use rain dance as quickly to avoid taunt. More importantly you can't just keep setting up rain dance as you believe it to be, again you'd have whoever setting up rain as a sitting target and once they're all gone the basic strategy of your team is finished. However, permanent rain changes that as they can easily buy their time as well as wear out any threats the opposing team has. Combine that with the added fire power water types gain from the rain, and abilities which are all quite handy, and you've got the jist of how different things are.
I would say that is quite a big sacrifice compared to the rain teams we have now, where essentially all that sacrifice is lumped into one decent pokemon. Moreover, keep in mind who are common rain dance starters like Electrode, and with this generation Tornelos/Voltos. While Electrode may not be as impressive as the other two Electrode was a popular way to start off rain dance because it was essentially the fastest rain dancer, so Electrode could avoid taunt and even use Taunt itself. Voltos/Tornelos would be more viable, stat-wise and ability wise especially, but keep in mind neither of these actually would gain any significant boosts from the rain other than Thunder, which would easily be walled by a ground type and in theory waste yet another turn of those precious 8 turns, as their stabs are not further amplified by the rain the way water type pokes do (on top of their ability which is activated by the rain). Course we're not even counting water absorbers or walls that would force a switch out, another waste of turn.
In essence its quite easy to waste at least half of those 8 turns with prediction, which isn't that difficult since the goal would be very hyper offense. Also there isn't that much speedy rain dancers - once Electrode and Voltos/Tornelos is gone things will be difficult as there isn't much pokes who would have the speed to use rain dance as quickly to avoid taunt. More importantly you can't just keep setting up rain dance as you believe it to be, again you'd have whoever setting up rain as a sitting target and once they're all gone the basic strategy of your team is finished. However, permanent rain changes that as they can easily buy their time as well as wear out any threats the opposing team has. Combine that with the added fire power water types gain from the rain, and abilities which are all quite handy, and you've got the jist of how different things are.
Voltolos doesn't learn rain dance and has no business being used on a rain team over Tornelos if you ask me. STAB base 120 power move with no type immunity, only resisted by two types weak to fighting (hammer arm) and electric types is far superior to a base 120 power move that can allow free switch ins and waste time. You don't need MH Thunder Wave on a rain team either. Electrode doesn't need to be used over Agurida, who benefits from the rain more so than he does and has a usable offensive stat.
It has already been discussed in this thread that almost non of the water absorbers actually do anything to hinder any of rain's sweepers anyway. How would they force switches under eight turns of rain when they can't do it under infinite rain?
And Kefka, according to your logic we should only ban moves/abilities if the move makes everything using it broken, yes? So if Shandera was found broken with shadow tag, but not Wobb/Gochi, then shandera would be banned, yes?
As much as I like it,I would ban Shandy if it was the only broken ST mon.
Keep in mind Voltos DOES learn rain dance =/
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/642.shtml
As for why he's viable I attribute that to Mischievous heart as he would be a far safer bet than Electrode given the priority afforded by his ability. Yes Tornelos is viable I never doubted that, he is the more ideal rain dancer, but again he's not exactly sturdy enough to keep on taking hits. Agiruuda would be no different from Electrode in that they're both very frail sure he gets hydration but with those defenses and resists I doubt he'd be doing much in the rain. Heck Agiruuda might be even worse given his defenses.
As for switching out its rather simple as noted it in the thread you've essentially got a trio of pokemon who can cover each others weaknesses in the rain quite well but that would force them to keep shuffling about to deal with the said threat. The coverage of the trio is impressive but by themselves they don't have that perfect coverage. Water absorbers are just a common way of easing prediction, since they essentially will be hit by either electric or grass so one simply needs to switch into that and presto that is two turns wasted. For instance one uses Gastrodon (or Swampert but pardon I enjoy using Gastrodon and its still the same point) who would obviously only be best dealt with by grass so the oncoming move will be grass, so its a matter of switching out to whom resists grass and crippling the attacker (in my case I use Rotom-C with trick scarf). Or my favorite is using Toxicroak to switch in my Clefable who paralyzes the opponent with Thunderwave as they've essentially become wary of using hydro pump or their water attack (which would have dealt the most damage to my special wall). Yes this does happen in battles and it happens almost like clock work, seriously who would want to use hydro pump knowing that they have a pokemon who essentially would just take that as a free switch in/heal and even possibly set up if you mis-predict and use a water type attack again thinking they're switching out. Course dynamics change in permanent rain as with time going longer they'll easily learn of your trick, and you've got a lot of other heavy water hitters to deal with.
So he does, huh. I recall arguing with a friend over that matter and was certain that he didn't. Guess I was wrong.
Agurida's defenses are relatively similar to Electrode's. 80/60/70 isn't much worse than 60/70/80. The big difference here is typing. He's not bulky enough for constant switching, but if Starmie can make good use of recover, I'm sure he can as well (or rest if you're so inclined). These pokemon aren't the only users of rain dance either. Zapdos, Vaporeon, and a few others that are relatively bulky can pull it off as well.
Agurida's defenses are relatively similar to Electrode's. 80/60/70 isn't much worse than 60/70/80. The big difference here is typing. He's not bulky enough for constant switching, but if Starmie can make good use of recover, I'm sure he can as well (or rest if you're so inclined). These pokemon aren't the only users of rain dance either. Zapdos, Vaporeon, and a few others that are relatively bulky can pull it off as well.
Yes but point of why Electrode was popular for UU rain teams and even OU in gen 4, before this new speed creep and MH abilities, is that he could avoid taunt so that he could set up rain (and basically from that point on usually just exploded so as to not waste the turns). I'm not saying the ones you mentioned wouldn't be good for setting up rain but again they don't have the same speed as Electrode (who has 140) and has access to Taunt BTW so he could shut down other leads or taunters. Adding to that it also makes prediction a whole lot easier if the team does have to pack rain dance since the Pokemon you just mentioned would generally either use recovery to heal the damage inflicted while they were setting up or switch out, one way or another that is a wasted turn.
Now consider that you'd essentially be down one poke if Electrode did opt to explode, that is one big sacrifice of a Pokemon slot just for rain. With Politoed having Drizzle you could at least avoid that scenario and still have one extra poke (either as a meat shield or an attacker other than entering and setting up rain).
I'm sorry, alphatron, but I just find it ridiculous that you can't see the difference between eight turn rain and drizzle. Your theorymon reads like a chess fan-fiction, dude. Stalling out for eight turns isn't a big deal with moves like protect and roar, and the playstyle becomes much easier to play around once you know that rain is coming to an end. With team preview, it's even easier to predict what is carrying rain dance and what isn't. Rain in itself isn't broken, nor are the swift swimmers, it's simply the endless offense that comes with drizzle that pushes it over the edge. If we only ban the swift swimmers, then these ridiculous weather wars will just continue with new faces that are only a hair worse than the "rain trio" that we have now.
It's funny, because almost everyone agrees that rain as it is now is broken in some way, whether it be drizzle or the pokemon abusing drizzle. The fact is that these pokemon would not be broken without the endless rain, but drizzle can still continue to be a problem with the current swift swimmers along with the new ones that will be released within the dream world. Just take a look at this list:
http://serebii.net/abilitydex/swiftswim.shtml
There's 19 fully evolved pokemon on the list, all with this ability. I know some of these pokemon don't look too impressive, but we all remember a time when Ludicolo was a joke as well. I'm just imagining a a suspect test or two from now when we're talking about banning Qwilfish, Omastar, and Poliwrath; then maybe people will realize that banning these pokemon isn't the right course of action at all.
It's funny, because almost everyone agrees that rain as it is now is broken in some way, whether it be drizzle or the pokemon abusing drizzle. The fact is that these pokemon would not be broken without the endless rain, but drizzle can still continue to be a problem with the current swift swimmers along with the new ones that will be released within the dream world. Just take a look at this list:
http://serebii.net/abilitydex/swiftswim.shtml
There's 19 fully evolved pokemon on the list, all with this ability. I know some of these pokemon don't look too impressive, but we all remember a time when Ludicolo was a joke as well. I'm just imagining a a suspect test or two from now when we're talking about banning Qwilfish, Omastar, and Poliwrath; then maybe people will realize that banning these pokemon isn't the right course of action at all.
I completely agree with your last statement. While Qwilfish, omastar, and poliwrath are outclassed now... if you take out the trio those pokemon would still probably be able to break drizzle... I also see it staying in sets of three all the way down till there are maybe 6-7 fully evolved pokes that are actually not broken in drizzle environment. This would cause a lot of suspect tests, and ban a lot of really not-normally-broken pokemon with a bst in the 400s or lower.
Banning drizzle or politeod because it gets drizzle is a much faster and reliable way to balance it, as we have evidence from the past that suggests this will allow rain to exist in a stable and balanced way.
Banning swift swim removes rain from the meta all together in the end, as no one uses rain stall even now, and no one will bother running politoed because it would be (as most people agree) a waste of a slot without swift swim.
I'm pulling toward banning either Drizzle or Politoed, whichever fits into the smogon definitions better. It just has an easier and more predictable outcome that will not remove rain from the OU metagame, and will not get rid of any truly used strategies completely (even rain stall is POSSIBLE... but i'm not counting it as a truly used strategy BECAUSE IT ISN'T)
Took me a while to really decide... I truly was fenced for a while between all of them. Thanks for helping me figure it out (all of you ^^!).
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