np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[DahliaSky]

Get over yourselves people and realize...

Rain Dance Teams were in gen 5 before Drizzle.

We saw that they were obviously not broken, and it caused no problems at all... in fact it was even harder to set up and sweep than last gen. 8 turn swift swim was doing the same with three pokes that a single boosted sweeper often did by itself. In gen 5!

So please stop arguing that it hasn't been tested, and we should do a meta without swift swim... we already have seen this.

Please stop saying that Kingdra, Kabu, and Ludi are broken with both drizzle and rain dance, because it was obvious to anyone who played gen 5 before drizzle that it wasn't broken with rain dance.

Please, list all of these playstyles that would be gone from banning drizzle. I can't think of a single one, since I can still think of plenty of ways to play rain stall (not as well, but it was never good anyway) in 8 turn rain.You may have to tweek your sets, but with 8 turns you should be able to effectively toxicstall out a poke if you have tspikes down.

And last... Actually rebut this post if you feel anything but drizzle should be banned (as far as rain goes). You guys keep ignoring the posts where we ask for a list of the playstyles, and ignoring the posts where its said that rain was already used without drizzle in gen 5. Ignorance is bliss, but you need to address the real issue here, not correct technicalities in other people's arguments. Hell, People have even corrected me, quoting some things i've said and ignoring the parts where I mention the gen 5 (in fact going as far as saying gen 4 was a bad reference when i was drawing a conclusion to the gen 5 that was without drizzle) and without mentioning that there are no playstyles that will be completely lost if drizzle is banned.

There's a good amount less ignoring going on now and a lot more not reading the rest of the posts and jumping in at the end just to save time. Its isn't really up for debate if drizzle+swift swim is too much really, its all been more of a question of which to get rid of. Its also not that you can't find individual counters, its that you can't find counters that work for the whole style. You bring in a bulky grass? there's nothing forcing them to use their swift swimmers right away to kill it... they can come in any time with the buff, so who cares if you have a counter to 1 or 2 of them? They'll just bring in something else... and the problem is that they can get the equivalent of an agility boost almost any time durring the game unless you run a different auto-weather pokemon. Then, if you run a way to stop their weather, it becomes a game of who kills the other's inducer first.

Sand is also something to be considered, but not really in respect to rain. They aren't the same, so they need to be treated separately. If we apply the same system of looking to see where the problem is and fixing that, it will not be broken anymore... but it shouldn't be looked at as a downside to banning drizzle. No one will run politoed just to change weather, and no other option will offer a direct solution to sand... It will have to be balanced on its own, as does everything else in the meta.

 

[JSND]

Rain is beaten by 6 "randomly assembled" pokemon six together ! realize that !
If the randomly assembled include Ttar, Celebi, Nattrei, etc.
Yeah thats why rain is such a huge threats

 

[Philip7086]

Dropping the rating req to 1400 again. Starting next round, I'm going to use a different system of qualifying.

 

[deluge]

No, you are not forced to use a weather changer.

Why, whenever someone tries to use their brain, and come up with suggestions to combat rain, someone always replies "Oh, so we're forced to use that if we don't ban Politoed?" According to this thread, you're now "forced" to use like 20 different things.

I agree. It's damn annoying invalid argument.
It can be applied to anything because we can always claim to not want to be 'forced' to use effective stratgies instead opting to ban the elements against which said strategies are effective.
Fortunately the argument does a better job of proving laziness than banworthiness.

 

[alexwolf]

This is becoming rapidly tiresome. You can probably go back to any single page n this thread and see one of my posts or someone else's explaining why that is so wrong. Toxicroak can laugh in its face all day, Ludi can 2HKO with Focus Blast, many Kingdra run HP Fighting, which can also 2HKO it, it can't stop rain at all

hp fightin doesn't 2hko specially defensive nattorei and is a very bad move to have on kingdra generally as in the rain it has almost the same bp with hydro pump(140 instead of 135).also if you use hp fighting in specs kingdra it gets walled much easier and is forced to switch 'cause an 70 bp hp can be walled by everything where an 120 bp stab and rain boosted attack won't....

 

[phalanx]

good this rating system sucks :P

why are we STILL discussing rain, isnt this done and dusted yet?
we should be discussing sand's brokeness as well.

and sun just got buffed with victini getting v-generate confirmed, sooner PO update the better, i want to try this.

 

[alexwolf]

Empoleon, Starmie, and Gayar are not rain abusers. Having Drizzle on a team with them is just a wasted teamslot for a minor boost. I already said Gorebyss and Omastar were very good, but things like Toxicroak can be quickly stalled out by a Bulky Ghost

any pokemon that can benefit from rain is a rain abuser!some pokemons are in a smaller degree and some are in a larger...and a 50% boost to isn't a minor boost...imagine the power of the already amazing subpetaya empoleon and add to this 50% more damage...pure destruction!!!imagine a specs starmie using hydro pump or thunder in the rain....or a +1 gyarados effectively having +2 when using waterfall...they are not minor boosts at all...combine these beasts with a good swift swimmer and you have in your hands a very potent and threatening offensive combination...!!

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I agree. It's damn annoying invalid argument.
It can be applied to anything because we can always claim to not want to be 'forced' to use effective stratgies instead opting to ban the elements against which said strategies are effective.
Fortunately the argument does a better job of proving laziness than banworthiness.

So,instead of saying it's a lazy argument.
Give me at least 10 OU mons that can reliably counter at least 2 of the Swift Swimmers. They CANNOT be weather inducers,and they CANNOT be using gimmicky sets.

 

[ensoriki]

Countering the metagame is not a gimmick Kefka.
Burungeru can easily come in on a specs kingdra hydro pump, set up trick room next turn, and watch the tables turn. Can come in on more things then that as well, but that's probably one of the more notable things.

 

[Onetwobanana]

Standard OTR Bronzong (Brave 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef) takes:

Kingdra:
Modest Choice Specs Draco Meteor: 35.8% - 42.3%
Modest Choice Specs Hydro Pump: 92.3% - 108.6%

Naughty LO Waterfall: 58.6% - 69.2%
Naughty LO Outrage: 29.3% - 34.6%
Naughty LO Hydro Pump: 63.9% - 75.4%

While this is hardly the calcs I'd like for a counter, I'd say if you can get Bronzong in on a Dragon attack - especially Draco Meteor - he can force Kingdra out, setting up TR on the switch and effectively neutering opposing Swift Swimmers for a few turns, at the very least. Bronzong's strongest option against Kingdra is Zen Headbutt, dealing 39.1% - 46.2%, a potential 2HKO with Rocks.

Kabutops

Adamant LO Waterfall: 66.9% - 79%
+2 Adamant LO Waterfall: 133.1% - 157.1%

Adamant LO Stone Edge: 27.8% - 32.8%
+2 Adamant LO Stone Edge: 55.6% - 65.7%

Adamant LO Low Kick: 37.3% - 44.1%
+2 Adamant LO Low Kick: 74.3% - 87.6%

A bit weaker here, but if you can get in on an unboosted anything Bronzong will survive, set up TR, and proceed to do 72.5% - 85.9% with Gyro Ball, which is an OHKO with Rocks and one layer of Spikes. Again, he's not 100% reliable, but he's a damn good option.


Ludicolo

Modest LO Surf: 66.9% - 79%

Modest LO Hydro Pump: 84.3% - 99.4%

Modest LO Energy Ball: 18.6% - 22.2%

Modest LO Grass Knot: 23.7% - 27.8%

Modest LO Focus Blast: 37.6% - 44.4%

Bronzong is dealing 45% - 53.1% with Gyro Ball, 48.5% - 57.3% with Zen Headbutt, an easy 2HKO. I think you can see where this is going - so long as you keep Bronzong away from Water attacks, which only needs a little prediction, he can handle the big three pretty decently on his own. Will he go down in the process? Certainly. But he's got a pretty good shot at winning. Also, keep in mind that this is an offensive Bronzong variant; any defensive sets will fare much better.

Now let's look at some other calcs:

Adamant LO Kabutops vs. Physically Defensive Celebi:

Waterfall: 23% - 27.5%
+2 Waterfall: 46.5% - 55%

Stone Edge: 38.9% - 46%
+2 Stone Edge: 78% - 92.1%

+2 Aqua Jet: 23% - 27.5%

I'm showing Physically Defensive Celebi as doing 129.4% - 153.2% with Grass Knot to Kabutops. If someone could double check for me that'd be awesome, seems high. Assuming that number is accurate, outside of +2 Stone Edge Kabutops doesn't stand a chance.

Ludicolo vs. Physically Defensive Celebi:

Waterfall: 17.1% - 20%
+2 Waterfall: 34.2% - 40.1%

+2 Seed Bomb: 22.8% - 26.7%

+2 Ice Punch: 56.9% - 67.3%

I'd feel very comfortable switching Celebi in on either of these Pokemon (Assuming a physical Ludicolo, of course.) While Celebi's strongest attack against Ludi is Leaf Storm at 47.8% - 56.3% on the first hit, Grass Knot is hitting a consistent 27.5% - 32.6%, so Celebi should be able to comfortably Recover stall Ludicolo to death.

Wish + CM Jirachi needs to watch out for Waterfall from Kabutops, but Kabutops needs to watch out for Thunderbolt from Jirachi, which threatens to OHKO after hazard damage. It's a clean OHKO if Jirachi manages to get +1. Jirachi can't really damage Ludicolo outside of Psychic, but Ludicolo is doing fuck all to Jirachi as well. Kingdra has problems if Jirachi comes in on a Dragon move, since it lets Jirachi net a crucial CM on the switch, making it even harder to take the little guy out.

Bold Magnezone with 252 HP / 224 Def laughs in the face of physical Ludicolo and Dragon attacks from Kingdra, dealing decent damage to both with Thunderbolt.

Standard CB Metagross can take an unboosted Waterfall or a boosted Stone Edge from Kabutops and KO back with EQ. He's at risk from Ludicolo, but he threatens to OHKO with Earthquake as long as hazards are up. Once again, switch in on a Dragon attack from Kingdra and threaten to OHKO with EQ.

There are five for you, all from previous generations too. Are they counters? Absolutely not. They all handle the situations pretty well, though. Note that four of the five are Steel types. Steel is shaping up to again be a standard type to have on any team.

 

[badabing]

If I could ban anything it would be this ranking system. Anyone with a decent rating is eventually just haxed the fuck out by -20 diff randoms, even if you set Find Battle to be "Within 200". 200 is a considerable gap in the rankings and hardly makes for good competition, inevitably resulting in a costly loss. Omg I raged so hard as I steadily fell from 1338 to a humble 1217. I raged like a fucking sandstorm. Better luck next round!

 

[masterful]

any pokemon that can benefit from rain is a rain abuser!some pokemons are in a smaller degree and some are in a larger...and a 50% boost to isn't a minor boost...imagine the power of the already amazing subpetaya empoleon and add to this 50% more damage...pure destruction!!!imagine a specs starmie using hydro pump or thunder in the rain....or a +1 gyarados effectively having +2 when using waterfall...they are not minor boosts at all...combine these beasts with a good swift swimmer and you have in your hands a very potent and threatening offensive combination...!!

But you are effectively wasting a slot on your team to get a 50% boost to ONE attack. That just isn't worth it most of the time. also, most of the other swift swimmers aren't that good, or don't even really need rain to function well

 

[chrisrandom9]

If I could ban anything it would be this ranking system. Anyone with a decent rating is eventually just haxed the fuck out by -20 diff randoms, even if you set Find Battle to be "Within 200". 200 is a considerable gap in the rankings and hardly makes for good competition, inevitably resulting in a costly loss. Omg I raged so hard as I steadily fell from 1338 to a humble 1217. I raged like a fucking sandstorm. Better luck next round!

Why don't you just lower the gap to about 50? That way you only play people close to you

 

[masterful]

hp fightin doesn't 2hko specially defensive nattorei and is a very bad move to have on kingdra generally as in the rain it has almost the same bp with hydro pump(140 instead of 135).also if you use hp fighting in specs kingdra it gets walled much easier and is forced to switch 'cause an 70 bp hp can be walled by everything where an 120 bp stab and rain boosted attack won't....

You do realize there are 4 moveslots, right? Good. While HP Fighting might not 2HKO Max HP/SpD Nattorei, Focus Blast will, and so will Low Kick. DO you see a trend here?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Countering the metagame is not a gimmick Kefka.
Burungeru can easily come in on a specs kingdra hydro pump, set up trick room next turn, and watch the tables turn. Can come in on more things then that as well, but that's probably one of the more notable things.

Yes,yes.
A Tentacruel with Hail or a Burungeru with Trick Room is not gimmicky at all/sarcasm
Trick Room from Bronzong would be better,simply because he has a better typing.
Burungeru gets OHKO'd by Ludicolo's Energy Ball IIRC.

 

[Onetwobanana]

Yes,yes.
A Tentacruel with Hail or a Burungeru with Trick Room is not gimmicky at all/sarcasm
Trick Room from Bronzong would be better,simply because he has a better typing.
Burungeru gets OHKO'd by Ludicolo's Energy Ball IIRC.

Check the calcs I posted a few posts up from this.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Check the calcs I posted a few posts up from this.

I did,and aside from Celebi,none of them can do it most of the time.
Physical Ludicolo is almost non-existent.

 

[masterful]

Standard OTR Bronzong (Brave 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef) takes:

Kingdra:
Modest Choice Specs Draco Meteor: 35.8% - 42.3%
Modest Choice Specs Hydro Pump: 92.3% - 108.6%

Naughty LO Waterfall: 58.6% - 69.2%
Naughty LO Outrage: 29.3% - 34.6%
Naughty LO Hydro Pump: 63.9% - 75.4%

While this is hardly the calcs I'd like for a counter, I'd say if you can get Bronzong in on a Dragon attack - especially Draco Meteor - he can force Kingdra out, setting up TR on the switch and effectively neutering opposing Swift Swimmers for a few turns, at the very least. Bronzong's strongest option against Kingdra is Zen Headbutt, dealing 39.1% - 46.2%, a potential 2HKO with Rocks.

Kabutops

Adamant LO Waterfall: 66.9% - 79%
+2 Adamant LO Waterfall: 133.1% - 157.1%

Adamant LO Stone Edge: 27.8% - 32.8%
+2 Adamant LO Stone Edge: 55.6% - 65.7%

Adamant LO Low Kick: 37.3% - 44.1%
+2 Adamant LO Low Kick: 74.3% - 87.6%

A bit weaker here, but if you can get in on an unboosted anything Bronzong will survive, set up TR, and proceed to do 72.5% - 85.9% with Gyro Ball, which is an OHKO with Rocks and one layer of Spikes. Again, he's not 100% reliable, but he's a damn good option.


Ludicolo

Modest LO Surf: 66.9% - 79%

Modest LO Hydro Pump: 84.3% - 99.4%

Modest LO Energy Ball: 18.6% - 22.2%

Modest LO Grass Knot: 23.7% - 27.8%

Modest LO Focus Blast: 37.6% - 44.4%

Bronzong is dealing 45% - 53.1% with Gyro Ball, 48.5% - 57.3% with Zen Headbutt, an easy 2HKO. I think you can see where this is going - so long as you keep Bronzong away from Water attacks, which only needs a little prediction, he can handle the big three pretty decently on his own. Will he go down in the process? Certainly. But he's got a pretty good shot at winning. Also, keep in mind that this is an offensive Bronzong variant; any defensive sets will fare much better.

Now let's look at some other calcs:

Adamant LO Kabutops vs. Physically Defensive Celebi:

Waterfall: 23% - 27.5%
+2 Waterfall: 46.5% - 55%

Stone Edge: 38.9% - 46%
+2 Stone Edge: 78% - 92.1%

+2 Aqua Jet: 23% - 27.5%

I'm showing Physically Defensive Celebi as doing 129.4% - 153.2% with Grass Knot to Kabutops. If someone could double check for me that'd be awesome, seems high. Assuming that number is accurate, outside of +2 Stone Edge Kabutops doesn't stand a chance.

Ludicolo vs. Physically Defensive Celebi:

Waterfall: 17.1% - 20%
+2 Waterfall: 34.2% - 40.1%

+2 Seed Bomb: 22.8% - 26.7%

+2 Ice Punch: 56.9% - 67.3%

I'd feel very comfortable switching Celebi in on either of these Pokemon (Assuming a physical Ludicolo, of course.) While Celebi's strongest attack against Ludi is Leaf Storm at 47.8% - 56.3% on the first hit, Grass Knot is hitting a consistent 27.5% - 32.6%, so Celebi should be able to comfortably Recover stall Ludicolo to death.

Wish + CM Jirachi needs to watch out for Waterfall from Kabutops, but Kabutops needs to watch out for Thunderbolt from Jirachi, which threatens to OHKO after hazard damage. It's a clean OHKO if Jirachi manages to get +1. Jirachi can't really damage Ludicolo outside of Psychic, but Ludicolo is doing fuck all to Jirachi as well. Kingdra has problems if Jirachi comes in on a Dragon move, since it lets Jirachi net a crucial CM on the switch, making it even harder to take the little guy out.

Bold Magnezone with 252 HP / 224 Def laughs in the face of physical Ludicolo and Dragon attacks from Kingdra, dealing decent damage to both with Thunderbolt.

Standard CB Metagross can take an unboosted Waterfall or a boosted Stone Edge from Kabutops and KO back with EQ. He's at risk from Ludicolo, but he threatens to OHKO with Earthquake as long as hazards are up. Once again, switch in on a Dragon attack from Kingdra and threaten to OHKO with EQ.

There are five for you, all from previous generations too. Are they counters? Absolutely not. They all handle the situations pretty well, though. Note that four of the five are Steel types. Steel is shaping up to again be a standard type to have on any team.

Have fun taking LO ice beams from Ludi with Celebi

 

[NC]

This isn't in response to the previous post, but to a variety of them scattered about this thread but of course rain doesn't have a counter. "Rain" typically consists of cores of at least 3-4 pokemon so using different cores of 3-4 pokemon that counter rain is a perfectly acceptable argument (if this even mattered...). I could just as easily say "stall" or "sand" have no counters by picking a core of 3-4 (or 10+ as some have done for rain) that take advantage of a strategy and claiming they have no counters. If somebody points out a counter or check I'll just claim they are saying I am "forced" to use that counter and then call it gimmicky. Perfect argument!

I have actually played a decent amount this suspect test and the only pokemon I had to especially prepare for specifically and would vote to ban was manaphy. I could also see kingdra as an issue, but I used nattorei too often for it to be a real problem. I wouldn't consider kabutops or ludicolo even close to broken, there are many other sweepers that are more threatening and less dependent on weather than those two.

 

[Darusare]

Empoleon, Starmie, and Gayar are not rain abusers. Having Drizzle on a team with them is just a wasted teamslot for a minor boost. I already said Gorebyss and Omastar were very good, but things like Toxicroak can be quickly stalled out by a Bulky Ghost

meh
ive run a starmie and its nice to have a boosted stab blus thunder-beam coverage
but his boosts in the rain are minor
which is ok
since i still have to win even if my toed is dead

 

[capefeather]

Dropping the rating req to 1400 again.

ok

Starting next round, I'm going to use a different system of qualifying.

REJOICE

and sun just got buffed with victini getting v-generate confirmed, sooner PO update the better, i want to try this.

Uh... I'm guessing you're talking about Movie 14 Victini, and it was pretty obvious that that was going to get V-Generate, lol. However, that's not going to be out until the summer. Besides, we already have even more powerful Fire-type attacks in OU, like Shandera's Overheat (can't remember if Fire Blast is also stronger) and Darmanitan's Flare Blitz. (Yeah, yeah, Wild Charge, but still.)

 

[Darusare]

I did,and aside from Celebi,none of them can do it most of the time.
Physical Ludicolo is almost non-existent.

when i see physical ludicolos....
i just lol

but i guess steel is going to be the best typing to counter weather
based on those stats
since they take no sand dmg and resist most things
and for swift swim steels are slow anyway
so the boosted speed doesnt matter
and with dragons running around
steels are pro this gen

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This isn't in response to the previous post, but to a variety of them scattered about this thread but of course rain doesn't have a counter. "Rain" typically consists of cores of at least 3-4 pokemon so using different cores of 3-4 pokemon that counter rain is a perfectly acceptable argument (if this even mattered...). I could just as easily say "stall" or "sand" have no counters by picking a core of 3-4 (or 10+ as some have done for rain) that take advantage of a strategy and claiming they have no counters. If somebody points out a counter or check I'll just claim they are saying I am "forced" to use that counter and then call it gimmicky. Perfect argument!

I have actually played a decent amount this suspect test and the only pokemon I had to especially prepare for specifically and would vote to ban was manaphy. I could also see kingdra as an issue, but I used nattorei too often for it to be a real problem. I wouldn't consider kabutops or ludicolo even close to broken, there are many other sweepers that are more threatening and less dependent on weather than those two.

And of course this post gets completely ignored. Thank you for actually being reasonable. The ban Rain proponents are retarded if they truly want one pokemon to counter rain. I guarantee someone will call this overcentralising but who says that you are using them just to counter rain. Say you use Burungeru, Nattorei, Bronzong on a stall team. Are they there just to counter rain? No, they are there to provide synergy to your team and also happen to counter rain. (And sand/sun/hail to an extent as well.)

 

[masterful]

This isn't in response to the previous post, but to a variety of them scattered about this thread but of course rain doesn't have a counter. "Rain" typically consists of cores of at least 3-4 pokemon so using different cores of 3-4 pokemon that counter rain is a perfectly acceptable argument (if this even mattered...). I could just as easily say "stall" or "sand" have no counters by picking a core of 3-4 (or 10+ as some have done for rain) that take advantage of a strategy and claiming they have no counters. If somebody points out a counter or check I'll just claim they are saying I am "forced" to use that counter and then call it gimmicky. Perfect argument!

I have actually played a decent amount this suspect test and the only pokemon I had to especially prepare for specifically and would vote to ban was manaphy. I could also see kingdra as an issue, but I used nattorei too often for it to be a real problem. I wouldn't consider kabutops or ludicolo even close to broken, there are many other sweepers that are more threatening and less dependent on weather than those two.

Wow, man.I am very hopeful you don't get to vote. Manaphy is the least of our worries. There is a difference between saying something is niche and gimmicky and having something be niche and gimmicky. There are no non-niche counters to rain that won't be far less effective against non-rain teams. Offer 1 example, and if I can't logically and intelligently refute it, I will no longer be so irritated with Drizzle

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

If somebody points out a counter or check I'll just claim they are saying I am "forced" to use that counter and then call it gimmicky. Perfect argument!

I have actually played a decent amount this suspect test and the only pokemon I had to especially prepare for specifically and would vote to ban was manaphy. I could also see kingdra as an issue, but I used nattorei too often for it to be a real problem. I wouldn't consider kabutops or ludicolo even close to broken, there are many other sweepers that are more threatening and less dependent on weather than those two.

Uhhh,that's because you ARE forced to use:
1.A weather inducer
2.Virijion
3.Nattorei
4.Reuniclus/Bronzong
5.Possibly Toxicroak

Every single team you make MUST have one of these mons,and lets face it,only Nattorei,Reuniclus,Bronzong,and Virijion are easy to fit unto any team.
T-tar,Hippowdon,Obamasnow,and Ninetales all help against rain teams,but Sand/Hail isn't always good to have since it cancels Lefties and something without reliable recovery,like Nattorei or Dusclops for example,need the Lefties and having Sun makes your Fire weak mons harder to use.
Virijion is nice,but I find,and this is just MY opinion,if you need Grass and Fighting,Breloom does it better,but if you want something bulkier,Virijion would do it nicely.
Reuniclus and Bronzong are good additions for a team too.
Toxicroak though....is just mediocre outside of rain.
None of them can counter the whole trio(at best,2 of them),they just get pounded on mercilessly until they die.
And if you carry weather inducers,if just becomes a battle of which inducer dies first,then it's "gg".

Anything else has to waste a move slot to fit an gimmicky move like Sunny day just to remove the current weather. Not only does it make that single move useless against any other teams,it's also useless against Sun teams.(Or Hail teams if you run Hail instead)