np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[NC]

Uhhh,that's because you ARE forced to use:
1.A weather inducer
2.Virijion
3.Nattorei
4.Reuniclus/Bronzong
5.Possibly Toxicroak

Every single team you make MUST have one of these mons,and lets face it,only Nattorei,Reuniclus,Bronzong,and Virijion are easy to fit unto any team.
T-tar,Hippowdon,Obamasnow,and Ninetales all help against rain teams,but Sand/Hail isn't always good to have since it cancels Lefties and something without reliable recovery,like Nattorei or Dusclops for example,need the Lefties and having Sun makes your Fire weak mons harder to use.
Virijion is nice,but I find,and this is just MY opinion,if you need Grass and Fighting,Breloom does it better,but if you want something bulkier,Virijion would do it nicely.
Reuniclus and Bronzong are good additions for a team too.
Toxicroak though....is just mediocre outside of rain.
None of them can counter the whole trio(at best,2 of them),they just get pounded on mercilessly until they die.
And if you carry weather inducers,if just becomes a battle of which inducer dies first,then it's "gg".

Anything else has to waste a move slot to fit an gimmicky move like Sunny day just to remove the current weather. Not only does it make that single move useless against any other teams,it's also useless against Sun teams.(Or Hail teams if you run Hail instead)

Really? I am FORCED to use one of them? I would absolutely be willing to wager lots of money that somewhere out there that is a team that didn't use any of those that made the voting requirement (it would be a good bet as I know this). But enough guessing, I will get to your other points... You are saying that those other "counters" aren't always a good idea to have? Maybe it would be in your best interest to make your team so they are a good idea to have? Remember, you control this, not your opponent. Also, why am I obligated to pick one pokemon to counter a trio of pokemon? Doesn't that give one side an artificial advantage in this argument?

Wow, man.I am very hopeful you don't get to vote. Manaphy is the least of our worries. There is a difference between saying something is niche and gimmicky and having something be niche and gimmicky. There are no non-niche counters to rain that won't be far less effective against non-rain teams. Offer 1 example, and if I can't logically and intelligently refute it, I will no longer be so irritated with Drizzle

Of course there are no counters to "rain." I already said this, rain is not a pokemon, it is usually an entire team or strategy and if there was one pokemon that could individually stop this strategy, it would be beyond terrible. Also, being less effective against non-rain teams is not relevant. Nattorei would fit this criteria only because it is so effective against many pokemon rain teams typically use. Just because it is "less effective" against different strategies doesn't mean it is a gimmick.

 

[masterful]

Really? I am FORCED to use one of them? I would absolutely be willing to wager lots of money that somewhere out there that is a team that didn't use any of those that made the voting requirement (it would be a good bet as I know this). But enough guessing, I will get to your other points... You are saying that those other "counters" aren't always a good idea to have? Maybe it would be in your best interest to make your team so they are a good idea to have? Remember, you control this, not your opponent. Also, why am I obligated to pick one pokemon to counter a trio of pokemon? Doesn't that give one side an artificial advantage in this argument?


Of course there are no counters to "rain." I already said this, rain is not a pokemon, it is usually an entire team or strategy and if there was one pokemon that could individually stop this strategy, it would be beyond terrible. Also, being less effective against non-rain teams is not relevant. Nattorei would fit this criteria only because it is so effective against many pokemon rain teams typically use. Just because it is "less effective" against different strategies doesn't mean it is a gimmick.

No it is very relevant. If a strategy exists where one must significantly hamper their team in order to counter it, there is a problem. And for the seven billionth time, Nattorei can't counter rain. At all. If you need my reasoning, I probably said i t on every single page of this thread

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Off the topic of weather, other pokes that need serious consideration of being tested for brokenness are:

Landlos (Swords Dance, Rock Polish, hits insanely hard in Sand, etc. After Swords Dance in Sand, can ohko physical defensive Skarmory with Stone Edge to show it's power)

Latios (Specs Draco Meteors)

Doryuzu (maybe, but there is no denying that once his checks are gone, he soundly murders you and forces priority that with Team previewer can obviously be accounted for and hopefully reserved until said priority is dead)

Terakion (despite lesser usage and the current problem of Rain, Terakion is a beast that 1-2 hit koes everything with a combination of Swords/Polish)

 

[IcyMan28]

Off the topic of weather, other pokes that need serious consideration of being tested for brokenness are:

Landlos (Swords Dance, Rock Polish, hits insanely hard in Sand, etc. After Swords Dance in Sand, can ohko physical defensive Skarmory with Stone Edge to show it's power)

Latios (Specs Draco Meteors)

Doryuzu (maybe, but there is no denying that once his checks are gone, he soundly murders you and forces priority that with Team previewer can obviously be accounted for and hopefully reserved until said priority is dead)

Terakion (despite lesser usage and the current problem of Rain, Terakion is a beast that 1-2 hit koes everything with a combination of Swords/Polish)

I don't think any of these are particularly difficult to deal with, IMO. Landlos requires a turn of setup to hit as hard as you say it does, as well as Sand support which leads to doubling up on a Water or Ice weakness at the least. Rock Polish sets can be checked by sturdy tanks and SD sets are easily outpaced.

Latios is not overly powerful compared to other threats this gen, IMO. Yes it has Specs Draco Meteor, but a steel type can help to check it and more offensive teams DO have ways to outspeed it. It is top tier, no doubt, but not broken.

Doryuuzu is overhyped, IMO. Pretty much any ground resist that is not weak to Rock Slide can check it - Virizion, Skarmory, Gliscor, Bronzong, etc. Should it lack X-Scissor, bulky grasses like Tangrowth and Celebi will deal with it while those without Return can be checked by other threats. Then of course MH users can Stun Spore / Will-o-Wisp it, or toss up a priority Rain Dance/Sunny Day to end its sweep right there. Team preview goes both ways, too.

Terakion is good, no doubt, but manageable. It is unlikely that it will pull off both SD and RP in the same turn, meaning that it will either be outrun (above base 108 Spe are Gengar, Lati@s, Scarf users, etc) or it won't be strong enough to break through the bulkier walls.


It may be that Rain is simply overshadowing these threats, but experience in last round of Suspect testing and this one alike have shown these pokemon to be manageable, IMO. Notably, Doryuuzu and Latios weren't even nominated and this was in a metagame before Rain (though admittedly Darkrai/Skymin were around).

 

[NC]

No it is very relevant. If a strategy exists where one must significantly hamper their team in order to counter it, there is a problem. And for the seven billionth time, Nattorei can't counter rain. At all. If you need my reasoning, I probably said i t on every single page of this thread

Did you read my post, particularly the part where I said "of course there are no counters to rain?" I know nattorei doesn't counter rain; however, it does do well against many pokemon commonly used on rain teams. Using the accepted definition of counter, there is no single "counter" (meaning one pokemon) to any strategy that anybody uses. If there was, that strategy would definitely not be used. There are no "counters" to hail, sand, stall, non-weather offense/defense, basically any strategy. That doesn't mean there is a problem with these. That is why you makes teams with your own strategy, rather than just trying to counter the opponent's. This argument that you arbitrarily need one pokemon to counter an entire team based off of a strategy is not a reason to ban said strategy. If it was, the entire metagame would end up banned.

edit: Off the topic of rain, I pretty much agree with your post IcyMan28. Those pokemon are difficult to deal with, but they all have their own specific issues which make them manageable.

 

[masterful]

Did you read my post, particularly the part where I said "of course there are no counters to rain?" I know nattorei doesn't counter rain; however, it does do well against many pokemon commonly used on rain teams. Using the accepted definition of counter, there is no single "counter" (meaning one pokemon) to any strategy that anybody uses. If there was, that strategy would definitely not be used. There are no "counters" to hail, sand, stall, non-weather offense/defense, basically any strategy. That doesn't mean there is a problem with these. That is why you makes teams with your own strategy, rather than just trying to counter the opponent's. This argument that you arbitrarily need one pokemon to counter an entire team based off of a strategy is not a reason to ban said strategy. If it was, the entire metagame would end up banned..

I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean one pokemon, because that obviously doesn't exist. Offer me any team, strategy, or whatever that can counter rain without being much less useful against standard teams

 

[smashlloyd20]

Easy; run Tyranitar. It can easily counter rain with a few correct predictions and is still a monster all by itself.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Easy; run Tyranitar. It can easily counter rain with a few correct predictions and is still a monster all by itself.

Weather inducer....helping our argument that only weather inducers can handle rain teams well.
Try harder.

 

[NC]

I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean one pokemon, because that obviously doesn't exist. Offer me any team, strategy, or whatever that can counter rain without being much less useful against standard teams

I can just throw out a random core of nattorei, burungel, blissey, swampert, but it is irrelevant. Teams do not and almost always cannot just "counter" each other. If they did, there would be no point in playing the game, you would just look at the teams and decide who wins based off that. Again, for all other (usable) strategies, not just rain, there are no opposing strategies that will work well against it 100% of the time. That is just a fact of this game and not a reason to ban anything.

 

[Ulevo]

You know, you guys dismissing valid strategies to use against rain and dubbing them as the last-ditch efforts to prevent rain from dominating thus proving your theories about rain being overpowered is more than ridiculous.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

You know, you guys dismissing valid strategies to use against rain and dubbing them as the last-ditch efforts to prevent rain from dominating thus proving your theories about rain being overpowered is more than ridiculous.

Why not just give us for the very least,12 mons(Two teams,right?) that can handle rain well,without using something stupidly gimmicky that would make them otherwise useless against everything else?
Nah,you'd probably prefer to just say that this is a new meta and we should adapt,or that our arguments are silly,or better yet,banning Drizzle would kill lolRain stall.

 

[Ulevo]

Why not just give us for the very least,12 mons(Two teams,right?) that can handle rain well,without using something stupidly gimmicky that would make them otherwise useless against everything else?
Nah,you'd probably prefer to just say that this is a new meta and we should adapt,or that our arguments are silly,or better yet,banning Drizzle would kill lolRain stall.

Why? There isn't any meaning in doing so. You'll simply pick apart the examples given to you, pointing out exploitations by other common threats because the reality is that in Gen V, no team is ultimately safe from every threat.

I'd also like to note that you're the one trying to prove that rain (and thus Drizzle, Swift Swim, or whatever argument you perpetuate) is ultimately overpowered and thus in need of a ban, therefor it is you who needs to provide proof that rain is in fact a problem.

I have yet to see this.

Sand is dominating the top of the ladder, not rain. Your paper examples are just that, paper examples, and don't hold up in practice. Rain is a force to be reckoned with, sure, but it isn't the only alternative to win on the ladder. It isn't even the winning formula.

And every time one of you verbal self appointed Pokemon political experts is given an example of a set amount of pogeys that fair well against rain while rounding off teams to help cope with a sufficient (but not all) amount of threats in the metagame, you dismiss the arguments, making claims that the select group of examples are either absolute necessities to opposing rain and thus proving your arguments valid, they're mere gimmicks (in your narrow minded opinions I might add), or they're weather inducers and simply contribute to the problem (ignoring the fact that of course this is a new generation that advocates the use and dominance of weather).

I feel no need to argue with you because it's really a waste of time.

 

[masterful]

I can just throw out a random core of nattorei, burungel, blissey, swampert, but it is irrelevant. Teams do not and almost always cannot just "counter" each other. If they did, there would be no point in playing the game, you would just look at the teams and decide who wins based off that. Again, for all other (usable) strategies, not just rain, there are no opposing strategies that will work well against it 100% of the time. That is just a fact of this game and not a reason to ban anything.

You truly are very skilled at dodging logic. Unfortunately, there ARE in fact, good team match-ups, yet there is still chance involved. If two players of equal skill could play a no-hax game between a Drizzle team and a non-drizzzle team, aand the guy playing non drizzle could win at least half the time against both normal and rain teams, then yes, Drizzle wouldn't be broken

 

[NC]

You truly are very skilled at dodging logic. Unfortunately, there ARE in fact, good team match-ups, yet there is still chance involved. If two players of equal skill could play a no-hax game between a Drizzle team and a non-drizzzle team, aand the guy playing non drizzle could win at least half the time against both normal and rain teams, then yes, Drizzle wouldn't be broken

I am not saying there are no good team matchups, obviously there are. Having a good team matchup does not mean you "countered" the opposing team and that your strategy is broken.
Also, answering your second premise is impossible as it requires way too many assumptions to be valid. For example, what is a "normal" team? Why doesn't rain count as "normal?" Why does the non-drizzle player have to beat "normal" teams if (s)he is playing against a rain team? How do you possibly plan on proving that the equal skilled players wouldn't split their games 50-50? The fact that there are more sand teams at the top of the ladder than rain would actually suggest rain would lose more often than not.
Also, that last point is not "proving" you need a weather changer to beat rain, don't try to say that.

 

[kingofmars]

How to beat Drizzle: Use Hail from Tentacruel when Politoed is dead. Your opponent doesn't know that they need to save them for later when they see you don't have an auto-weather inducer, so they're more likely to let their politoed die sooner than later. And before Kefka says that Hail Tentacruel is a gimmic, let me just say that Tentacruel in it of itself is a Competitively viable pokemon, and by using just 1 moveslot, you essentialy have a counter to an entire strategy.

 

[Ulevo]

How to beat Drizzle: Use Hail from Tentacruel when Politoed is dead. Your opponent doesn't know that they need to save them for later when they see you don't have an auto-weather inducer, so they're more likely to let their politoed die sooner than later. And before Kefka says that Hail Tentacruel is a gimmic, let me just say that Tentacruel in it of itself is a Competitively viable pokemon, and by using just 1 moveslot, you essentialy have a counter to an entire strategy.

The argument against this is that while you're waiting for Politoed to be switched in and faint, they'll be relentlessly hammering you with powerful STAB Water attacks and sweeping you, and all they have to do is keep Politoed alive all game and you've wasted a move slot on a Pokemon that could have otherwise been useful.

What they fail to realize is that no intelligent player (albeit ignorant to this particular strategy) would willingly keep their Politoed out of battle in the event that they need to throw in a sacrifice to keep their other sweepers safe once they see that your team doesn't have another weather alterer via team preview. They also fail to realize that this scenario will happen often because, like or not, rain isn't invincible.

Try convincing them of that though.

 

[ginganinja]

How to beat Drizzle: Use Hail from Tentacruel when Politoed is dead. Your opponent doesn't know that they need to save them for later when they see you don't have an auto-weather inducer, so they're more likely to let their politoed die sooner than later. And before Kefka says that Hail Tentacruel is a gimmic, let me just say that Tentacruel in it of itself is a Competitively viable pokemon, and by using just 1 moveslot, you essentialy have a counter to an entire strategy.

just a small nitpick but you still need something to sponge the rain teams assaults. For example you need to keep Hail secret on Tenta (otherwise your opponent will keep politoed alive) you need something that can sponge Kingdra's attacks (Tenta cannot keep switching into Specs DMs) and you also need a check for things like Kabutops which will Smash through Tentacruel (which you need to keep alive at all costs). So to correct you Hail Tentacruel makes it easier to do well vs Rain but it will not counter the entire playstyle like you claim

EDIT Half Ninja'ed

 

[ensoriki]

Ulevo though I agree for the most part to reasonably counter, when certain pokemon use this strategy, it becomes a norm. Hail tentacruel after enough use, and publicity can consider hail as one of it's sets, meaning when you DO see a tentacruel you consider that it has hail. Then tentacruel is not as efficient because the publicity of it's strategy against the metagame is known, and it's surprise factor that it's relying on (so that politoed dies first) is gone.

Hailcruel becomes popular, you look in team preview while you have a RD team see Tentacruel and think "Could be a spiker, could set up hail...lets keep Politoed around to be safe".
There comes a point where you start switching your weather setter to maintain a surprise factor, but only so many pokemon are actually viable at doing that strategy.
Eventually all the viable setters are known and rain players account for them.

In the short run however hailcruel would be effective, it can still perform in the long run as well, but with greater difficulty as the surprise factor is no longer there.
Then again we still have people switching nattorei into Tyrannitar not realizing a flamethrower or fire blast is coming.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I don't think any of these are particularly difficult to deal with, IMO. Landlos requires a turn of setup to hit as hard as you say it does, as well as Sand support which leads to doubling up on a Water or Ice weakness at the least. Rock Polish sets can be checked by sturdy tanks and SD sets are easily outpaced.

Latios is not overly powerful compared to other threats this gen, IMO. Yes it has Specs Draco Meteor, but a steel type can help to check it and more offensive teams DO have ways to outspeed it. It is top tier, no doubt, but not broken.

Doryuuzu is overhyped, IMO. Pretty much any ground resist that is not weak to Rock Slide can check it - Virizion, Skarmory, Gliscor, Bronzong, etc. Should it lack X-Scissor, bulky grasses like Tangrowth and Celebi will deal with it while those without Return can be checked by other threats. Then of course MH users can Stun Spore / Will-o-Wisp it, or toss up a priority Rain Dance/Sunny Day to end its sweep right there. Team preview goes both ways, too.

Terakion is good, no doubt, but manageable. It is unlikely that it will pull off both SD and RP in the same turn, meaning that it will either be outrun (above base 108 Spe are Gengar, Lati@s, Scarf users, etc) or it won't be strong enough to break through the bulkier walls.


It may be that Rain is simply overshadowing these threats, but experience in last round of Suspect testing and this one alike have shown these pokemon to be manageable, IMO. Notably, Doryuuzu and Latios weren't even nominated and this was in a metagame before Rain (though admittedly Darkrai/Skymin were around).

So then, if you switch in a counter on the wrong move, it is dead. Tyranitar and Landlos are very good friends and Sand teams double+up water/grass/ice weaknesses all the time and do fine. Landlos is a beast aside from opposing non-sand weather. And if it gets Rock Polish, it is doing some pretty damage to many rain pokemon (and everything)considering their weaker defenses. If you switch Latias or Starmie in on Landlos and it Rock Polishes, they die (unless they're bulky invested). If you switch a wall in on Landlos and it Swords Dances, you're going to be hurting quite a bit. Brongzong is a questionable check because after Swords Dance Landlos can 2 hit ko and being able to ohko physical defensive Skarmory is ridiculous. Landlos also has surprising defenses and isn't usually falling to priority except Ice Shard (who has only 1 good almost OU ish user but is rarely used Mamoswine) and it can also pull off a Bulk Up set (it is actually even harder to get rid of with Sub Bulk Up and potentially even scarier as things that outspeed it generally fear it and with Sub it protects itself while boosting Attack and defense) as well as a special attacking set with Sheer Force/Encourage in Dream World. Or Choice Band/Scarf. Landlos has some scary options and is way more threatening than Doryuzu which you at least know right away what it is running and can check it easier without worrying as much about whether its Swords/Polish/etc.

Terakion is much the same as Landlos except weaker to priority but faster. Swords Dance breaks walls and Rock Polishes outspeeds so you still have to worry which one it is going to pull off. Not quite as good as Landlos but still insanely scary and without priority is yet another thing that steamrolls all over you. Gliscor at best only checks Landlos/Terakion because after Swords Dance, they generally 2 hit ko you while Gliscor can't always 2 hit ko back and sometimes Landlos carry Hp Ice just to mess with it.

Latios Specs Meteor is still concerning and there is only so much abuse steels can take and it smashes HARD (although Nattorei does turn out to be able to absorb Meteors decently although again, there is only so many times Nattorei can switch in).

 

[Blln]

I'll admit it might not be the hugest deal at the moment with shit like rain destroying the metagame, but I just thought I'd chime in to mention that Sand Veil (and by extension Snow Cloak) is a seriously seriously messed up ability that can single-handedly ruin games if it kicks in at the right moment...

I mean literally single-handedly. Here is a log of a game where the direct outcome of a match was completely changed due to Sand Veil:

Hide

Battle between ILOVEDEREKC and dbdbdb started!

Tier: Standard OU
Variation: +14, -17
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Challenge Cup
Rule: No Timeout

dbdbdb sent out Tyranitar!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Azelf!
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Azelf used U-turn!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 238 HP! (64% of its health)
ILOVEDEREKC called Azelf back!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Magnezone!

The foe's Magnezone is floating on a balloon!

Tyranitar used Crunch!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Magnezone lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Magnezone's Balloon popped!
The foe's Magnezone's Defense fell!

The sandstorm rages!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Magnezone used Flash Cannon!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 133 HP! (35% of its health)
Tyranitar fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
dbdbdb sent out Doryuuzu!

Doryuuzu is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 3
ILOVEDEREKC called Magnezone back!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Azelf!

Doryuuzu used Swords Dance!
Doryuuzu's Attack sharply rose!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Azelf is buffeted by the sandstorm!

Start of turn 4
Doryuuzu used X-Scissor!
It's super effective!
The foe's Azelf lost 93% of its health!
The foe's Azelf fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Roobushin!

Start of turn 5
The foe's Roobushin used Mach Punch!
It's super effective!
Doryuuzu lost 270 HP! (74% of its health)
Doryuuzu's Balloon popped!

Doryuuzu used Earthquake!
The foe's Roobushin lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Roobushin fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Garchomp!

Start of turn 6
Doryuuzu used Earthquake!
The foe's Garchomp avoided the attack!

The foe's Garchomp used Earthquake!
It's super effective!
Doryuuzu lost 91 HP! (25% of its health)
Doryuuzu fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
dbdbdb sent out Latios!

Start of turn 7
ILOVEDEREKC called Garchomp back!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Heatran!

Latios used Surf!
It's super effective!
The foe's Heatran lost 80% of its health!
Latios is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
Latios is buffeted by the sandstorm!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Heatran used Dragon Pulse!
It's super effective!
Latios lost 194 HP! (64% of its health)

Latios used Surf!
It's super effective!
The foe's Heatran lost 19% of its health!
The foe's Heatran fainted!
Latios is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
Latios is buffeted by the sandstorm!
ILOVEDEREKC sent out Garchomp!

Start of turn 9
Latios used Draco Meteor!
The attack of Latios missed!

The foe's Garchomp used Dragon Claw!
It's super effective!
Latios lost 12 HP! (3% of its health)
Latios fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
dbdbdb sent out Randorosu!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Garchomp used Swords Dance!
The foe's Garchomp's Attack sharply rose!

Randorosu used Rock Polish!
Randorosu's Speed sharply rose!

The sandstorm rages!

Start of turn 11
Randorosu used Earthquake!
The foe's Garchomp lost 80% of its health!
Randorosu is hurt by its Life Orb!

The foe's Garchomp used Dragon Claw!
Randorosu lost 277 HP! (86% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Garchomp restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 12
Randorosu used Earthquake!
The foe's Garchomp avoided the attack!

The foe's Garchomp used Dragon Claw!
Randorosu lost 11 HP! (3% of its health)
Randorosu fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Garchomp restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
etc rest not important

Maybe not the most stellar match of all time, but the point it proves still stands. Doryuuzu would have swept the remainder of the opponents team. It was a gaurantee. The rest of the team could all be OHKOed and outsped and hit with the 100% acc move Earthquake. Instead, it missed against Garchomp and Garchomp was able to kill Doryuuzu.

Again, I acknowledge it's nowhere near as pressing as the rain/Manaphy issue, but Inconsistent was already banned primarily because it hindered competitiveness by adding in unnecessary luck in the form of evasion. Sand Veil is very similar. It adds a completely unnecessary and unwelcome level of luck that is just about impossible to prepare for. Notice in the log the move that was used had 100% accuracy. I really fail to see how that can be construed as competitive. Now that all of the users have secondary ability, I think it might be time to begin talking about banning the ability itself.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Now that all of the users have secondary ability, I think it might be time to begin talking about banning the ability itself.

Well that's still a problem, as almost none of them were found in Dream World yet, so they still have only one ability. But I know the moment Rough Skin Gible is found is the moment people will finally consider banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll admit it might not be the hugest deal at the moment with shit like rain destroying the metagame, but I just thought I'd chime in to mention that Sand Veil (and by extension Snow Cloak) is a seriously seriously messed up ability that can single-handedly ruin games if it kicks in at the right moment...

The only reason I feel I as well as others haven't pushed for the ban on Snow Cloak and Sand Veil is because the Pokemon that have them haven't had their Dream World abilities released yet as available alternatives. If we ban them now, we won't be able to use Garchomp and friends. I think for now it is worth waiting.

 

[masterful]

I am not saying there are no good team matchups, obviously there are. Having a good team matchup does not mean you "countered" the opposing team and that your strategy is broken.
Also, answering your second premise is impossible as it requires way too many assumptions to be valid. For example, what is a "normal" team? Why doesn't rain count as "normal?" Why does the non-drizzle player have to beat "normal" teams if (s)he is playing against a rain team? How do you possibly plan on proving that the equal skilled players wouldn't split their games 50-50? The fact that there are more sand teams at the top of the ladder than rain would actually suggest rain would lose more often than not.
Also, that last point is not "proving" you need a weather changer to beat rain, don't try to say that.

I shall simplify it for you then, as you clearly need my help. Normal=Not Rain. That was pretty obvious. Also, I want to to ASSUME only that 2 players of equal skill are playing with no hax involved. Use your imagination. Also, very good matchups are counters. They mean the exact same thing. That's just semantics, Stop splitting hairs and try to argue a point

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

The only reason I feel I as well as others haven't pushed for the ban on Snow Cloak and Sand Veil is because the Pokemon that have them haven't had their Dream World abilities released yet as available alternatives. If we ban them now, we won't be able to use Garchomp and friends. I think for now it is worth waiting.

I hate to be annoying here, but this is not the way it should work.

If Sand Veil is broken, it should be banned. Doesn't matter if we can't use Garchomp, etc. I'm not going to lie, this mentality to try and make what we believe should be OU, OU is kind of annoying me.

For the record, I don't think Sand Veil is broken, but I'm just saying, IF it was, people shouldn't not ban it just because that means they can't use Garchomp. But to ban Sand Veil, there's also the whole "Are Sand Veil Sandshrew, Cacnea, Gible, etc. REALLY broken?" debate, but that's a discussion for another time I guess. It's simple with banning Drizzle, because only Politoed gets it, but if Magikarp got Drizzle aswell, I suspect there'd be this whole "Do we ban Drizzle, or do we ban Politoed" debate going on.

 

[nihilist]

I'd like to propose that we handle the Drizzle/SS in a different manner than we do with our usual suspects. I have written a few thoughts in the other thread, but it was run over by banter that has been repeated over several times. Basically, I think we should extract rain from the current suspect vote because Gen V is still a baby that hasn't worked its kinks out. Instead we should test Drizzle/SS in a different suspect latter as it involves more than just one mon, it involves entire teams/strategies/mons. Here's the OP

I'll admit that I haven't played the gen 5 metagame yet or gen 5 at all for that matter, but don't you guys think we are pushing it a little bit? I mean, people don't even know all of the fully evolved mons from this gen yet.
I consider myself a very experienced gen4 battler, as I have had staying power on the leaderboards multiple times.
Anyway, I think we are rushing things much to fast as far as bans go. I know we want to reach some sort of stable, enjoyable metagame, but rushing things is not catalyzing the process, in fact, I think we are impeding it.

When you take into account what rain is to this metagame, you'll realize that it is a substantially important part of it. Heck, everyone knows that weather is THE dominant factor when considering teams, mon, strats, counters, and basically everything in between.
So if this is such a substantial part of the metagame, why rush things with this process. I know it is underway, but I think that the premiere pokemon community would be able to recognize that something so huge in the metagame cannot be discounted due to following a process that even we are still trying to figure out.
So all I'm saying is that when dealing with weather or other larger concepts such as banning of abilities, we need to take more time to further evaluate test subject.
Otherwise smogon can get some serious discredit, the metagame will take much much longer to become an enjoyable one, and many experienced players' opinions will be left without being heard.
We should remove drizzle/SS from the current testing timeline and create a separate, more specific testing process.