np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Nonary Game]

There are plenty of stall pokes who are capable of beating Rankurusu. The trick room variant can be worn down by the attacks of stall teams, so it isn't too major a problem.

And there are plenty of stallish counters to magic guard rank. CM roar Latias, Unaware curse Quagsire, Spiritomb (CM/Trick/NP), probably more that I'm missing.

Agreed, although if Rankurusu is their last Pokemon, Latias eventually loses no matter what against Psycho Shock variants as it cannot phaze it. Agree on Quagsire and Spiritomb though.

Although if you're using a stall team, and using something like six stall pokes with no power and relying on what is weak attacks to defeat other teams, you're asking for a bruisin' from any Magic Guard user. Even Clefable.

 

[Nanoswine]

You honestly make no sense and are just making excuses and exceptions to prove your case. Your point was that rankurusu destroys stall due to its bulk and instant recovery + magic guard. I showed you that clefable is just as bulky with instant recovery + magic guard.

Even if it were true that clefable is crap against offensive teams (which it isn't), it's doesn't have anything to do with why you're saying rankurusu is broken. If rankurusu destroys stall, then clefable does too. And if clefable destroys stall, then it doesn't matter if it's bad against offense because I have 5 other pokemon that will cover it. If 1 pokemon can take down an entire play style, how exactly does it make a horrible choice for a team member?

Why is it that this thread always degrades to mud-slinging and ignorance of other's posts :(

Clefable can't just go off OHKOing shit after only 1 CM. It is basically setup fodder until it has accumulated several CMs, by which time the opponent's Terakion will have up a RP and will OHKO you with CC. It loses in a CM war to practically everything, whereas Rankurusu pretty much always comes out on top thanks to Psycho Shock. Which brings up another point: Clefable doesn't even get decent STAB! You may be able to use the "all the rest of my team will cover for it" argument against a single Pokemon a member of your team, but an entire playstyle? You're fighting 6-5 right of the bat, which is never a good situation.

Also, I never said Rankurusu was broken, I even said that I didn't know that at this point it even warranted a ban!

Aside from Magic Guard, I really don't see how these two Pokemon are even comparable at all.

EDIT:

There are plenty of stall pokes who are capable of beating Rankurusu. The trick room variant can be worn down by the attacks of stall teams, so it isn't too major a problem.

And there are plenty of stallish counters to magic guard rank. CM roar Latias, Unaware curse Quagsire, Spiritomb (CM/Trick/NP), probably more that I'm missing.

I'm mainly talking about CM Recover Rankurusu. Roar Latias doesn't beat it, it just phazes it out. And with magic guard, that doesn't mean much aside from it loses it's CM. Don't bring up Quagsire and Spiritomb, naming Pokemon that are highly situational doesn't really prove anything. Quagsire beats Kyogre. Spiritomb beats Mewtwo. But they don't see any use even in Ubers because they don't do much else.

 

[Nonary Game]

Why is it that this thread always degrades to mud-slinging and ignorance of other's posts :(

Clefable can't just go off OHKOing shit after only 1 CM. It is basically setup fodder until it has accumulated several CMs, by which time the opponent's Terakion will have up a RP and will OHKO you with CC. It loses in a CM war to practically everything, whereas Rankurusu pretty much always comes out on top thanks to Psycho Shock. Which brings up another point: Clefable doesn't even get decent STAB! You may be able to use the "all the rest of my team will cover for it" argument against a single Pokemon a member of your team, but an entire playstyle? You're fighting 6-5 right of the bat, which is never a good situation.

Also, I never said Rankurusu was broken, I even said that I didn't know that at this point it even warranted a ban!

Aside from Magic Guard, I really don't see how these two Pokemon are even comparable at all.

EDIT:

I'm mainly talking about CM Recover Rankurusu. Roar Latias doesn't beat it, it just phazes it out. And with magic guard, that doesn't mean much aside from it loses it's CM. Don't bring up Quagsire and Spiritomb, naming Pokemon that are highly situational doesn't really prove anything. Quagsire beats Kyogre. Spiritomb beats Mewtwo. But they don't see any use because they don't do much else.

Quagsire isn't that bad due to Unaware though. Sure, the stats could use a slight boost, but being able to nullify stat boosters is something to be desired. Theorymoning just doesn't work as there are just too many epleptic trees and fights could go any way, and having a backup to deal with boosters is never a bad idea.

 

[Nanoswine]

Quagsire isn't that bad due to Unaware though. Sure, the stats could use a slight boost, but being able to nullify stat boosters is something to be desired. Theorymoning just doesn't work as there are just too many epleptic trees and fights could go any way, and having a backup to deal with boosters is never a bad idea.

I have not seen one Quagsire this entire round of testing. But I guess I should still prepare for it..?

 

[Arc Tech]

Yeah. This gen, quagsire is actually good. I haven't used it, but I've fought against it, and man is it a pain.

It's amazing what a new ability can do. After all, who would have though these pokes could be OU-material this gen? Quagsire, Sableye, Blaziken, Politoed, Ninetails, Ditto...

 

[astrohawke]

Why is it that this thread always degrades to mud-slinging and ignorance of other's posts :(

Clefable can't just go off OHKOing shit after only 1 CM. It is basically setup fodder until it has accumulated several CMs, by which time the opponent's Terakion will have up a RP and will OHKO you with CC. It loses in a CM war to practically everything, whereas Rankurusu pretty much always comes out on top thanks to Psycho Shock. Which brings up another point: Clefable doesn't even get decent STAB! You may be able to use the "all the rest of my team will cover for it" argument against a single Pokemon a member of your team, but an entire playstyle? You're fighting 6-5 right of the bat, which is never a good situation.

Also, I never said Rankurusu was broken, I even said that I didn't know that at this point it even warranted a ban!

Aside from Magic Guard, I really don't see how these two Pokemon are even comparable at all.

You clearly think there's reason why rankurusu is broken or you wouldn't be arguing so hard against it. So why don't you actually make that reason clear so I can actually form a counter argument without you changing the subject on me. I thought it was because it destroys stall but when I said clefable can also do the same thing you started talking about offensive teams for no reason.

And you don't see how clefable and rankurusu are comparable? Magic guard, CM, recover + 2 attacking moves and similar defensive stats. Let me guess they're not comparable because their stats are not identical and clefable isn't psychic. If that's not comparable, I don't know what you think comparable is.

 

[PttP]

And you don't see how clefable and rankurusu are comparable? Magic guard, CM, recover + 2 attacking moves and similar defensive stats. Let me guess they're not comparable because their stats are not identical and clefable isn't psychic. If that's not comparable, I don't know what you think comparable is.

maybe because rank is actually usable outside of beating stall. maybe because clefable doesnt even get stab on anything. maybe because ranks spatk is much higher than clefables. maybe because rank can actually beat the enormous amount of fighting types in the metagame right now. maybe because rank can also beat ttar. maybe just maybe

btw rank is ou fukdat

 

[Acritter]

I'm aware they can miss, but the point is that in order to set up evasion boosts, your opponent will require them to miss many times in a row, and the odds of that happening are quite low, hovering around the level of critical hits. If the phazer switches in on DT, the probability of reaching +6 is 1/21. And even at +6, the phazer has a 1/3 chance of success on every subsequent try. If the DTer sticks at +1, the probability that it takes more than 2 shots to phaze is 1/16, and 3 shots is 1/64.

I also did an analysis of what happens when a counter switches in and simply tries to KO you outright. You can see it here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3100363&postcount=518. It reveals the rather interesting conclusion that using Supersonic on the switch-in is more likely to be helpful than Double Team.

Anyways, the reason I want them unbanned is because they aren't broken. Banning something that isn't broken is inimical to any competitive game. We must take the game we are given at face value, and only when something so warps the game around itself that it becomes the only viable strategy should that element be banned. We never even tried evasion and OHKOs in 4th gen. How can we possibly say with any confidence that they will dominate the 5th gen metagame?

5th-gen Smogon is not about banning what is broken. It's about creating an interesting, competitive metagame. OHKO moves and evasion moves have no place in a competitive metagame. They take no skill to use and are unreliable, taking games off of the best of players when they work and losing games without a shot when they don't. In a competitive environment, you have to expect that it's only by an extreme fluke that a veteran player can lose to a rookie. OHKO and evasion moves take that away. Nothing else has that level of luck to it. "Oh, but Acritter!" you say. "What about Stone Edge/Fire Blast/flinchhax/crits?" Yes, those can make a veteran player lose, but not even close to the same way. A player can recover from a missed move or a crit, and it takes some degree of setting up for a position where said move or crit will seriously matter. This means that in order for all this other hax to really take effect, the two players have to be fairly close in skill, because otherwise the veteran player will just play around it. There's no real way to play around OHKO moves and evasion: you either win against them, or you lose to them, and none of the situation falls into your hands. That simply cannot exist in a competitive metagame.

 

[Nanoswine]

@ astrohawke I'm arguing against it because people are saying Rankurusu being nominated means "OMG SLIPPERY SLOPE!!1!" I'm just trying to explain their reasoning. If you check in the noms thread, I didn't nominate it. Why? Because I don't think that it should be banned at this point. Maybe once Drizzle, Dory, and Randorosu have been dealt with there will be room on a Stall team for a hard counter to Rankurusu. I don't think we should ban it with such a huge metagame change coming up. But the point is, at this stage it is difficult for stall to handle both Rain and Sand, and Rankurusu is the icing on the cake.

You don't see how Terakion and Garchomp are comparable? SD, two great STABs, both in trollish speed tiers, and similar offensive stats? Sorry to use circular logic, but since you're using it that's the only way I can really respond :/

 

[Disposable Puppets]

Why are people complaining about Reuniclus wrecking stall? Does stall not utilize Trick and Perish Song anymore?

 

[Arc Tech]

Trick is typically an offensive tactic... and perish song is very rarely used.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

How is Reuniclus sweeping with just ONE CM?
Bulky variants have very little investment in Sp.Attack,and have coverage issues.
Spiritomb alone walls most bulky variants,and the ones that run Shadow Ball + Focus Blast can't hit hard enough at times.

The Trick roomer can't invest much in bulk and cannot take repeated hits.

Again,if Reuniclus makes stall "unviable" because he's too strong and bulky,then why not ban Shinpora too? Who has an amazing combo in Cosmic Power + Assist Power.

Any stall team that can't handle Reuniclus deserves to lose.

 

[astrohawke]

@ astrohawke I'm arguing against it because people are saying Rankurusu being nominated means "OMG SLIPPERY SLOPE!!1!" I'm just trying to explain their reasoning. If you check in the noms thread, I didn't nominate it. Why? Because I don't think that it should be banned at this point. Maybe once Drizzle, Dory, and Randorosu have been dealt with there will be room on a Stall team for a hard counter to Rankurusu. I don't think we should ban it with such a huge metagame change coming up. But the point is, at this stage it is difficult for stall to handle both Rain and Sand, and Rankurusu is the icing on the cake.

You don't see how Terakion and Garchomp are comparable? SD, two great STABs, both in trollish speed tiers, and similar offensive stats? Sorry to use circular logic, but since you're using it that's the only way I can really respond :/

No people are saying rankurusu being nominated means ban-happy people wanting to get rid of everything that gives their team trouble. Like "omg my 6 wall stall team can't handle rank so instead of adjusting my team I want it banned".

And I do think Terakion and Garchomp are comparable for the reasons that you say. SD, great speed, great attack, great stabs, both bulky, both boosted by SS and both incredibly hard to wall. 2 pokemon don't have to be the same type with the same stats to be comparable. If they have similar stats, similar movesets and both do similar jobs then they are comparable.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

Trick is typically an offensive tactic... and perish song is very rarely used.

Ah, ok I guess I was mistaken about trick. I thought stall used it too. But perish song could stop Reuniclus so why aren't stall players using it?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Ah, ok I guess I was mistaken about trick. I thought stall used it too. But perish song could stop Reuniclus so why aren't stall players using it?

Well,aside from TrapMurkrow,I don't see many things that use Perish Song much.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Show at least 5 actual logs of Reuniclus actually doing anything remotely "broken" and not just doing well in its niche, or I am disregarding anything that someone who supports banning Reuniclus says.

 

[Nubbins]

Probably since trick can only be used once and perish song can be switched out of (unless Reuniclus is the last pokemon.)

 

[petrie911]

5th-gen Smogon is not about banning what is broken. It's about creating an interesting, competitive metagame. OHKO moves and evasion moves have no place in a competitive metagame. They take no skill to use and are unreliable, taking games off of the best of players when they work and losing games without a shot when they don't. In a competitive environment, you have to expect that it's only by an extreme fluke that a veteran player can lose to a rookie. OHKO and evasion moves take that away. Nothing else has that level of luck to it. "Oh, but Acritter!" you say. "What about Stone Edge/Fire Blast/flinchhax/crits?" Yes, those can make a veteran player lose, but not even close to the same way. A player can recover from a missed move or a crit, and it takes some degree of setting up for a position where said move or crit will seriously matter. This means that in order for all this other hax to really take effect, the two players have to be fairly close in skill, because otherwise the veteran player will just play around it. There's no real way to play around OHKO moves and evasion: you either win against them, or you lose to them, and none of the situation falls into your hands. That simply cannot exist in a competitive metagame.

Yeah, it takes no skill to use evasion, none at all. It's not like you have to be careful what you're setting up on, or make sure that your opponent doesn't have his phazer anymore (as mentioned, phazing beats evasion even though it can miss). And you certainly never have to worry about your opponent setting his own mon up while you try for evasion boosts. No, no, Evasion is just pressing a button and hoping for the best.

As for OHKOs, there's really no need to have a plan for when your opponent capitalizes on the several free turns you give him. Giving your opponent a free turn isn't really that dangerous, no, is it?

Nothing is free. These moves have tradeoffs like any other, and thus have strategic value. Claiming that they have no place in a competitive game is preposterous.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Show at least 5 actual logs of Reuniclus actually doing anything remotely "broken" and not just doing well in its niche, or I am disregarding anything that someone who supports banning Reuniclus says.

*has 5 battles where I allow opponent's Reuniclus to set up in my face and sweep*
*posts*

Anyway,the only thing people say about him being broken is that "he makes stall unviable" while implying that he can OHKO everything,can survive nearly everything,and can just wreck everything all in the same set with an impossible amount of EVs.

@petrie(Spelling?)
DT/OHKO moves turn the game into a roll of dice.
Who's to say that the scarfed Flygon can't just get lucky and land all those Fissures on your team?
Who's to say you will EVER land any hit on that mon with +3 evasion?
Just no.
Evasion boosting moves and OHKO moves shouldn't be allowed.
They allow even the most noobish player a chance to win against the most experienced.

 

[Blalu]

Yeah, it takes no skill to use evasion, none at all. It's not like you have to be careful what you're setting up on, or make sure that your opponent doesn't have his phazer anymore (as mentioned, phazing beats evasion even though it can miss). And you certainly never have to worry about your opponent setting his own mon up while you try for evasion boosts. No, no, Evasion is just pressing a button and hoping for the best.

As for OHKOs, there's really no need to have a plan for when your opponent capitalizes on the several free turns you give him. Giving your opponent a free turn isn't really that dangerous, no, is it?

Nothing is free. These moves have tradeoffs like any other, and thus have strategic value. Claiming that they have no place in a competitive game is preposterous.

I agree with one-hit ko moves being unban but evasion should still be banned.
I never understood why one-hit ko moves where banned because they have low acc to make up for being so powerful. Plus mind reader and the like can be switched out of.

 

[Stellar]

Hopefully people are not nominating Rankurusu just because it undermines the viability of stall. There is nothing in the "rulebook of Pokemon" that states that stall must exist in the game. If a certain Pokemon makes a style of play inviable, that style of play will be phased out. In this case, a more offensive approach will be adopted. The idea that stall must be usable is a relic of the past.

That isn't to say that Rankurusu should not be a suspect. I believe it is its ability to destroy stall and balanced teams (Calm Mind) as well as offense teams (LO Trick Room) that elevates it above other Pokemon.

 

[Benlisted]

Hopefully people are not nominating Rankurusu just because it undermines the viability of stall. There is nothing in the "rulebook of Pokemon" that states that stall must exist in the game. If a certain Pokemon makes a style of play inviable, that style of play will be phased out. In this case, a more offensive approach will be adopted. The idea that stall must be usable is a relic of the past.

That isn't to say that Rankurusu should not be a suspect. I believe it is its ability to destroy stall and balanced teams (Calm Mind) as well as offense teams (LO Trick Room) that elevates it above other Pokemon.

Admittedly there is no rule that says that stall must exist, but if looking at an ideal metagame as one with a diverse range of viable teamstyles and pokemon, something that is found to make as broad a playstyle as stall unviable could be suspect in terms of decreasing said diversity.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

What I see more is people nominating Reuniclus for what stellar said, destroying stall with the CM set and offense with the TR set, as both are equally as viable and used and lethal and blahblahblah lol salamence

 

[smashlloyd20]

What I see more is people nominating Reuniclus for what stellar said, destroying stall with the CM set and offense with the TR set, as both are equally as viable and used and lethal and blahblahblah lol salamence

Total bs. Rank is countered by a lot of stuff, and outsped by EVERYTHING sing the CM set. Ever heard of phazing, stall teams?

As for the TR set, that's a bit trickier, but keep in mind Rank has to take a turn to set up TR, priority still works, and there are still things that can wall it.

 

[Deaga]

Ever heard of phazing, stall teams?

Phazing is completely useless against Ranky. What does Roaring it out accomplish? You take a hit while using Roar (or Whirlwind) and it can very easily come back later. Magic Guard makes sure that it won't take any hazard damage in the process. It can just keep coming back and hitting your Phazer until it dies, and that's really easy to do when you're immune to all kinds of passive damage and have recovery to boot. (Hint: Switch Ranky into something like Blissey, which does absolutely nothing to it!)

Don't get me wrong, I don't find Ranky to be uber material... I just find it to be some REALLY good Pokémon. And a Pokémon which can't be countered by merely phazing it out.