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Reuniclus
- Thread starter Pratty
- Start date
Lez see here. +1 0ev Bold (A.k.a the CM set) Shadow Ball does 32.2 - 38.2% to 252/0 Spiritomb.
252SpA Shadow Ball (A.k.a the TR set) Shadow Ball does 26.3 - 31.3% to 252/0 Spiritomb.
This has officially given me proof that Spiritomb can function as a counter. I was skeptical at first but now I'm sure as Spiritomb can actually take a hit and stall it out with Pain Split.
252SpA Shadow Ball (A.k.a the TR set) Shadow Ball does 26.3 - 31.3% to 252/0 Spiritomb.
This has officially given me proof that Spiritomb can function as a counter. I was skeptical at first but now I'm sure as Spiritomb can actually take a hit and stall it out with Pain Split.
But then your team is stuck with spiritomb...
It's not entirely useless like you're suggesting. It takes pretty much all Psychics out and more than just Rankurusu. It hits Mew, Rank, Latis, Alakazam, Gardevoir, Espeon, Xatu, and all Psychics. It can cripple people with Trick, Will-O-Wisp, or Curse, has no weaknesses, can set up Trick Room if needed, smack people with Stabbed Sucker Punches and Pursuits, etc. It also is a pretty good counter to Shandera because of the doomed if you do, doomed if you don't option like he does with Psychics although Flamethrowers/Shadow Balls hurt if you predict wrong and don't have special defense. He is an excellent secondary backup wall although obviously should not be the main one because he's bulky but not that much. But definitely bulky enough to get the job done, destroy Psychics and offensive Ghosts, burn phyical attackers, and Pain Split off health and lower the PP of low pp moves. He's definitely more helpful than some people try to make him sound. And if Rankurusu is that big a problem and Spiritomb helps, use it.
@SJcrew
Opps your right I forgot life orb. (I'm still getting used to the damage calculator) However, my point suprisingly still remains. Spiritomb can come in on a Calm Mind, take the shadow ball, and stall with Pain Split or cripple with trick.
@Masterful
What's actually wrong with Spiritomb in the 5th gen metagame. I mean I can understand the power creep and the borderline broken pokes that came down from uber last gen but the power creep has so far been severely overestimated and as far as the borderline broken pokes go, it all comes down the the test. I think that once the metagame settles down and more things start getting banned people will start to see the viability of some pokes over others. I'm not saying Spiritomb is viable but in the spiritomb counter argument I've only ever seen "Spiritomb sux". Has this thing even been tested in the metagame. I feel like nobodies even giving it a chance.
Opps your right I forgot life orb. (I'm still getting used to the damage calculator) However, my point suprisingly still remains. Spiritomb can come in on a Calm Mind, take the shadow ball, and stall with Pain Split or cripple with trick.
@Masterful
What's actually wrong with Spiritomb in the 5th gen metagame. I mean I can understand the power creep and the borderline broken pokes that came down from uber last gen but the power creep has so far been severely overestimated and as far as the borderline broken pokes go, it all comes down the the test. I think that once the metagame settles down and more things start getting banned people will start to see the viability of some pokes over others. I'm not saying Spiritomb is viable but in the spiritomb counter argument I've only ever seen "Spiritomb sux". Has this thing even been tested in the metagame. I feel like nobodies even giving it a chance.
I'm not giving it a chance because it is completely outclassed by Bloongell in a stall perspective, and Cune in a CM role, and all it is good for is a crappy pursuit
Except for the part where you're wrong. With 172 Atk EVs and a neutral nature, its Pursuit is exactly the same strength as 252 Adamant Scizor. Does Scizor have a crappy Pursuit? Umm... no.
The only reasons to use Bloongell over it is resistance to Fire and Recover. But I'd say it is balanced out by the fact that of the two, only Spiritomb stops your stall team from failing against a somewhat common pokemon. That, and Pain Split sort of helps with the recovery thing (just a little bit though).
And the fact that it has different weaknesses, different STABs, different stats (obviously) and a different movepool are all enough to keep it out of Cune's shadow. Does Cune do it better on most teams? Yeah, prolly. Does Cune directly out-class it? I'd say no.
No one is saying that Spiritomb is the best poke out there. But if you hypothetically had a team that handled everything except Fighting types and Psychic types, why the hell would you not throw Spiritomb on and call it a day?
Theoretically, if I could have that team. I wouldn't give a damn that "OMG Spiritomb sux!!!!11" I would use it because it would patch up my team's weakness, which Bloongell and Cune wouldn't do.
Are people really still that impressed with Jellicent? I've never been impressed with its performance and think it's pretty damn overated. Spiritomb is a niche pokemon, but it fills that niche well. Like SlimMan said, it isn't automatically great on every team, but if it's something your team NEEDS it can perform quite admirably. That CB set in particular is unpredictable and looks formidable as a result. That can really screw over a team when they mispredict you.
We're talking about Reuniclus...
I apologize for not explaining myself. On a stall team, pursuit isn't really ever necessary, and investing in Attack on your Spiritomb will make it far less bulky than Bloongell. Crocune is far better than CroTomb, that is for sure, as it has better stats in I think every single category and arguably a better STAB. Bloongell has instant recovery, a STAB status spreading move, and better defenses, and can carry Toxic. Spiritomb can Pursuit
Not sure if this has been mentioned but:
Teddy@Life Orb/Leftovers
Magic Guard
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spatk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Shadow Ball/Psychic
- Focus Blast
This thing is not just good, it is broken. It is the sole reason I run Skill Swap Chansey. Without similarly drastic measures, any stall team auto loses. Banded Tyranitar KO's only 27% of the time with Crunch, while being massacred in return by +1 Focus Blast. Scizor can never OHKO with Banded U-turn, though Bug Bite will sometimes KO. Scarf Shandera Fails to KO +1 Rankurusu/whatever with Shadow ball, while being eaten alive by Psychic in return. The only three Pokemon I know of that will 100% OHKO are Band/activated Guts Heracross Megahorn, Shubarugo Megahorn and Hustle Band Ainto X-Scissor. That and Specs Shandera Shadow Ball. That is a list of four Pokemon, all of whom are a bit sucky (with the listed item) who can KO it. In return it makes huge dents in almost everything. +6 Psychic 2HKO's Chansey/Blissey, but Shadow Ball is worthwile for better coverage, since Focus Blast hurts the Pink pair anyway. Very few counters, immunity to passive damage making it near-as-makes-no-difference impossible to play around and viscous Special Attack to rip into the opposing team. I challenge anybody to beat this with a Stall team without resorting to otherwise useless options. Worry Seed doesn't work because nothing gets it and can take an attack or two to ustilise it. I know there are a lot of people who don't understand why this has been nominated - try facing this with stall, then honestly claim you don't think it is ridiculously OP.
EDIT: Also, Spiritomb is a terrible spinblocker because in the new meta, a spinblocker needs EXCELLENT defenses, which Spiritomb is verymuch lacking, being less bulky than Shandera (at least, Rotom-A is). The only one which i have found to sonsitently work are Dusclops and Desukan, though Desukan needs Wish support. With a whole new raft of threats to cover, a spinblocker can't just switch into Rapid Spin anymore. It has to have the defenses to take a strong hit or two in addition. Additionally, I can't see 'tomb doing anything but rolling over and dying if it switched into Dory.
Teddy@Life Orb/Leftovers
Magic Guard
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spatk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Shadow Ball/Psychic
- Focus Blast
This thing is not just good, it is broken. It is the sole reason I run Skill Swap Chansey. Without similarly drastic measures, any stall team auto loses. Banded Tyranitar KO's only 27% of the time with Crunch, while being massacred in return by +1 Focus Blast. Scizor can never OHKO with Banded U-turn, though Bug Bite will sometimes KO. Scarf Shandera Fails to KO +1 Rankurusu/whatever with Shadow ball, while being eaten alive by Psychic in return. The only three Pokemon I know of that will 100% OHKO are Band/activated Guts Heracross Megahorn, Shubarugo Megahorn and Hustle Band Ainto X-Scissor. That and Specs Shandera Shadow Ball. That is a list of four Pokemon, all of whom are a bit sucky (with the listed item) who can KO it. In return it makes huge dents in almost everything. +6 Psychic 2HKO's Chansey/Blissey, but Shadow Ball is worthwile for better coverage, since Focus Blast hurts the Pink pair anyway. Very few counters, immunity to passive damage making it near-as-makes-no-difference impossible to play around and viscous Special Attack to rip into the opposing team. I challenge anybody to beat this with a Stall team without resorting to otherwise useless options. Worry Seed doesn't work because nothing gets it and can take an attack or two to ustilise it. I know there are a lot of people who don't understand why this has been nominated - try facing this with stall, then honestly claim you don't think it is ridiculously OP.
EDIT: Also, Spiritomb is a terrible spinblocker because in the new meta, a spinblocker needs EXCELLENT defenses, which Spiritomb is verymuch lacking, being less bulky than Shandera (at least, Rotom-A is). The only one which i have found to sonsitently work are Dusclops and Desukan, though Desukan needs Wish support. With a whole new raft of threats to cover, a spinblocker can't just switch into Rapid Spin anymore. It has to have the defenses to take a strong hit or two in addition. Additionally, I can't see 'tomb doing anything but rolling over and dying if it switched into Dory.
Maybe you should consider other ways of beating it, instead of clamoring for a ban because your stall team can't beat it.
There are plenty of ways for a stall team to beat this guy. This is just off the top of my head, I don't usually play stall but here are several viable ways for stall to beat it:
WOBBUFFET
Taunt. gg.
Encore
Phazing it away
Perish Song. gg.
Skill Swap + Toxic
Shedinja (also owns rain teams while youre at it)
Ghost-type Curse
Spiritomb (assuming no Shadow Ball)
Choice Band Tyranitar + anything else with an attacking move
And that was without even thinking. You guys need to stop using the "b" word in this thread and start thinking of new ways to beat it.
Well Persih Song, Shedinja, Spiritomb, and Skill Swap are extremely niche, and if your stall team needs one of those, you are in trouble (especially when Shedinja is OHKOd by Sandstorm)
Perish Song isn't "extremely niche", especially when one of the most common pokemon in the game can use it without much to lose: Politoed. And it's not like you would be using PSong just for Reuniclus, it's an incredibly useful phazing move that also beats last-pokemon sweepers.
Whether or not a strategy is "niche" doesn't matter, my point was that this thread is filled with people saying "ban it!" instead of brainstorming ideas to beat it. Surprise! Sometimes you have to think of new strategies to win in competitive games. This is how ideas that used to be niche become mainstream.
I honestly can't believe that I searched the entire thread and the word "Wobbuffet" hasn't appeared before my post. He single-handedly annihilates Reuniclus as well as being one of the better team-players in the entire game.
Whether or not a strategy is "niche" doesn't matter, my point was that this thread is filled with people saying "ban it!" instead of brainstorming ideas to beat it. Surprise! Sometimes you have to think of new strategies to win in competitive games. This is how ideas that used to be niche become mainstream.
I honestly can't believe that I searched the entire thread and the word "Wobbuffet" hasn't appeared before my post. He single-handedly annihilates Reuniclus as well as being one of the better team-players in the entire game.
I could brainstorm lots of ways to beat Rayquaza on my OU team, but that doesn't mean I should have to. If some poke forces your team to use niche strategies that aren't very effective against teams lacking that specific poke you counter, then that poke or strategy is broken
We aren't talking about Rayquaza, whose offensive stats overshadow everything in OU by a longshot. We are talking about Reuniclus, who can easily be taken care of without much specialization because it is similar in all aspects to other OU pokemon.
Just because a pokemon forces you to think a bit, doesn't mean it's broken. This is a competitive multiplayer game, sometimes you have to think outside the box instead of just screaming "BAN!" because you can't be bothered to come up with a way around it. That is the epitome of laziness.
The fact that the word "Wobbuffet" hasn't appeared in this thread before my posts indicates to me that people aren't thinking very hard about countering this guy.
Quantify "niche strategies". If people were forced to use Taunt+Pursuit Spiritomb just to have a chance of beating Reuniclus, then I would buy this argument. But they aren't. It's perfectly beatable, it is just a pokemon that you can't expect to die when you mindlessly point and click. Any cohesive team should be able to deal with this pokemon. If your team is swept by Reuniclus, then your team has bigger problems at hand whenever ANY special booster comes in.
CM Clefable's done the same thing to stall since it got Magic Guard, so I don't see how Reuniclus is any different.
Perish Song has been a staple of stall teams for a while, and Wobbuffet is incredibly useful on its own, taking out Choiced pokemon as well as setting up sweepers. It's not using a "niche" strategy; it's simply converting to using a separate strategy that wasn't used before. And both are very effective against other teams as well. Take a look at Obi's stall team and tell me that Perish Song is useless. Everyone knows Wobby isn't useless at all, but it does happen to provide an excellent Reuniclus counter.
How many of you have actually played with stall teams against Reuniclus? It's not hard to fit something in to stop it. Swinging the banhammer for pokemon that only require minimal team reconstruction to stop is precisely the reason why smogon has a required rating for voters to qualify.
Perish Song has been a staple of stall teams for a while, and Wobbuffet is incredibly useful on its own, taking out Choiced pokemon as well as setting up sweepers. It's not using a "niche" strategy; it's simply converting to using a separate strategy that wasn't used before. And both are very effective against other teams as well. Take a look at Obi's stall team and tell me that Perish Song is useless. Everyone knows Wobby isn't useless at all, but it does happen to provide an excellent Reuniclus counter.
How many of you have actually played with stall teams against Reuniclus? It's not hard to fit something in to stop it. Swinging the banhammer for pokemon that only require minimal team reconstruction to stop is precisely the reason why smogon has a required rating for voters to qualify.
Strategies that, when used on your team, make your team significantly worse against teams lacking the strategy you counter are niche. (ie. Perish Song, Shedinja, Spiritomb) If you make your team significantly worse (running Tomb over Burungeru) only in order to take on Reuniclus, that is a problem. Rayquaza can be countered, yet it makes your team worse against non-Rayquaza teams
Let me look at that list. Phazing and Perish Song are basically useless because Phazing will never damage it and it will just switch out of Perish Song. I'm yet to find a Pokemon that can reliably Phaze the 4+ times that would be necessary to have it as the last poke, so that doesn't work either. Likewise, Encore merely forces switches. Taunt must come from a Pokemon which can survive that attacks it will take while it kills Rank, which means a short list. Skill Swap and Toxic cripples my Chansey against 640-odd Pokemon, but I run it anyway because I don't want to auto lose. Wobbuffet was almost useless when I tested him. There are far too many things which beat him for him to be good. Ghost Type Curse is useless because lose lose half your HP and do nothing. Bandtar loses over 50% of the time, so no real luck there. As I listed, the Guarenteed OHKO's all suck. Shedinja and 'tomb also suck. There. Out of your list, only one thing is remotely viable and still cripples the pokemon who runs it.
I'm fed up with the term Ban-Happy being thrown at everyone who you disagree with (not just you personally). I'm fine with everything else this meta, but I'm fed with Rankurusu and so I feel that it should be banned.
I'm fed up with the term Ban-Happy being thrown at everyone who you disagree with (not just you personally). I'm fine with everything else this meta, but I'm fed with Rankurusu and so I feel that it should be banned.
It's not even about thinking outside the box anymore. Since rankurusu was brought up as a suspect nomination, there has been tons of talk about ways to stop it. The problem is they don't want to use any of the ideas because "it doesn't fit into the team" or "it opens up the team to some other threat". Well newsflash, you either use the shit that stops rankurusu and get swept by pokemon X, or you use something that stops pokemon X and get swept by rankurusu or you can stop playing pure stall. Welcome to gen 5 where you can't counter everything with 6 pokemon anymore.
What?
Shadow ball (which isn't always present) never 2hkos wobb from either main set. Wobb can encore the CM (he outspeeds I think) and TR is obviously going to attack specially (unless it's TR plus CM, in which case coverage will suck). Dragon tail can do damage, and I'm sure bulky dragons (including the SR resistant bulky comp) can switch in many times to a +1 0ev rank. If you are smart and ballsy, perish trapping murkrow might be able to help. Eruufun can priority encore it, and since it can utilize max bulk and lefties, I'm sure it can do it multiple times.