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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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JUST IN CASE

DPPt Agility SubPetaya Empoleon (Modest, 252 SAtk, no Life Orb) versus DPPt Specs Kingdra (32 HP/0 SDef): 52.8% - 62.2% with HP Dragon

DPPt Specs Kingdra (Timid, 252 SAtk) versus DPPt Agility SubPetaya Empoleon (Modest, 12 HP): 56.1% - 66.3% with Hydro Pump, 43.6% - 51.6% with Draco Meteor

DPPt Specs Kingdra (MODEST, 252 SAtk) versus DPPt Agility SubPetaya Empoleon (Modest, 12 HP): 61.5% - 72.8% with Hydro Pump, 48.1% - 56.7% with Draco Meteor


Eh, could work with a bit of EV tweaking, I guess.
 
Hey guys, i have an idea, although it`s probably pretty stupid, but what about Shedinja? It`s immune to every attack Kingdra regularly carries and won`t usually have to worry about hazards or sandstorm against a rain team. Although it can`t really do anything back to it besides toxic (or will-o-wisp if its a DD set), orit could swords dance up and attempt to sweep? The only SS abuser i could think of that could hurt it is Kabutops, so i don`t know, could it be viable?
 
a last note to close this pointless arguing that has started about nattorei and kingdra.
i only said that nattorei is a counter to kingdra 'cause someone else stated that it isn't...period.
nothing more and nothing less...
anyone that knows the definition of a counter knows that this is true.
i am not debating how well nattorei can handle kingdra throughout the whole battle,i just said that nattorei is a counter to kingdra.
everything else said were arguments to prove my point.
 
alexwolf said:
a last note to close this pointless arguing that has started about nattorei and kingdra.
i only said that nattorei is a counter to kingdra 'cause someone else stated that it isn't...period.
nothing more and nothing less...
anyone that knows the definition of a counter knows that this is true.
i am not debating how well nattorei can handle kingdra throughout the whole battle,i just said that nattorei is a counter to kingdra.
everything else said were arguments to prove my point.
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I think the problem is that your definition of a counter isn't the same as everyone else's
 
nattorei can switch into any of kingdras attacks and beat kingdra

i think your definition of a counter is different from everyone elses
 
PttP said:
nattorei can switch into any of kingdras attacks and beat kingdra

i think your definition of a counter is different from everyone elses
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You sure about that? Max SpD Kingdra with Leech Seed can probably beat it, but any Nat that isn't max SpD or misses Leech Seed is pretty boned. That's a 90% counter at best, which I would not like, considering once Nat is gone, your team is screwed. Bloongell is a far better counter, as it can't be 2HKOed by any attack and has more reliable, powerful recovery
 
If you really think that Nattorei can't fit the definition of Kingdra's counter, then you should probably tell us what a counter is. Natt can switch into any of Kingdra's attack, resists its stabs and can 2hko with power whip, permanently cripple with thunder wave or stall it forever with leech seed+protect.
 
Haunter said:
If you really think that Nattorei can't fit the definition of Kingdra's counter, then you should probably tell us what a counter is. Natt can switch into any of Kingdra's attack, resists its stabs and can 2hko with power whip, permanently cripple with thunder wave or stall it forever with leech seed+protect.
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Here's what Nat can do. It can switch into Hydro pump, take like 40%, and force Kingdra out. Then Nat can be forced out, and Kingdra comes back in. Nat switches in, and takes like 40%. Then Nat either stays in and gets KOd, or switches out and its teammates get KOd
 
Haunter said:
If you really think that Nattorei can't fit the definition of Kingdra's counter, then you should probably tell us what a counter is. Natt can switch into any of Kingdra's attack, resists its stabs and can 2hko with power whip, permanently cripple with thunder wave or stall it forever with leech seed+protect.
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If performing the former roles, it's probably more of a check than counter as it cannot switch into Hydro Pump without being 3HKOd, giving it only a turn to use Power Whip, rendering the 2HKO useless. For T-Wave defining it as a counter is probably fine, seeing as T-Wave will render it useless, but the problem remains that Ferro must either die or you must switch out and let something take the third Hydro Pump to save Ferro (on low HP) so the definition is a tad shaky.

Admittedly though, Protect and Leech Seed will beat any standard Kingdra without much luck at all (I think it almost always avoids the 3HKO, correct me if I'm wrong).

(Not @ Haunter) Defining Ferro as a counter is acceptable, therefore, since although a lot of the sets people, including myself, have been talking about do not counter Kingdra, Ferro does have the capacity to outright defeat it without sacrificing its own viability elsewhere through Protect+Leech Seed.

...can we please talk about the actual suspects now?
 
masterful said:
Here's what Nat can do. It can switch into Hydro pump, take like 40%, and force Kingdra out. Then Nat can be forced out, and Kingdra comes back in. Nat switches in, and takes like 40%. Then Nat either stays in and gets KOd, or switches out and its teammates get KOd
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You're assuming that Kingdra can switch in with impunity when in fact it can't. It's vulnerable to every entry hazard and with choice specs has no way of recovering. Consider that Natt is often paired with Burungeru\Vaporeon, as they complement each other nicely, and you'll have a more concrete view of how countering Kingdra is not impossible.

Everyone here agrees that permanent rain gave Kingdra a huge boost in power, but a smart player can play around it, especially with team preview allowing them to identify the threat that Kingdra is, and save their counter\check accordingly.
 
what the fuck are you talking about. you are saying that leech seed is not a reliable option, yet to beat nattorei you need to use hydro pump 3 fucking times. why the hell would my team be screwed if i lost nattorei? i have 5 other pokemon. when i laddered i didnt use fucking nattorei and i still got to the nomination mark. nattorei isnt the only pokemon able to beat a kingdra. im not sure you have even read the last 5 pages and are just making up random shit that is uncomprehendable

edit: and apparently 3 other people can post faster than i can
 
Haunter said:
You're assuming that Kingdra can switch in with impunity when in fact it can't. It's vulnerable to every entry hazard and with choice specs has no way of recovering. Consider that Natt is often paired with Burungeru\Vaporeon, as they complement each other nicely, and you'll have a more concrete view of how countering Kingdra is not impossible.

Everyone here agrees that permanent rain gave Kingdra a huge boost in power, but a smart player can play around it, especially with team preview allowing them to identify the threat that Kingdra is, and save their counter\check accordingly.
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Why even call Nat a counter when you are pairing it with Bloongell or Vappy? That's just silly. They both actually counter Kingdra, having Nat there has nothing to do with it
 
PttP said:
what the fuck are you talking about. you are saying that leech seed is not a reliable option, yet to beat nattorei you need to use hydro pump 3 fucking times. why the hell would my team be screwed if i lost nattorei? i have 5 other pokemon. when i laddered i didnt use fucking nattorei and i still got to the nomination mark. nattorei isnt the only pokemon able to beat a kingdra. im not sure you have even read the last 5 pages and are just making up random shit that is uncomprehendable
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1)HP Fighting. Kingdra only needs a couple moves for coverage
2)Have fun taking repeated Specs Hydro Pumps with the rest of your team. Also, getting to the rank required isn't really proof of anything, just that you were a better player than your opponents
ps. it's spelled incomprehensible. Use spellcheck
 
masterful said:
Here's what Nat can do. It can switch into Hydro pump, take like 40%, and force Kingdra out. Then Nat can be forced out, and Kingdra comes back in. Nat switches in, and takes like 40%. Then Nat either stays in and gets KOd, or switches out and its teammates get KOd
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yes you are right masterful!

first of all sry that my definition of a counter doesn't match yours but apparently it seems that everyone else here thinks that nattorei can counter kingdra,so either we are all wrong and you are right about the definition of a counter(which is very possible considering that you are the undeniable god of pokemon)or you just have the wrong definition...

i don't care how much damage nattorei takes from kingdra as it isn't 2 hkoed by any of its attacks and can cripple it for the rest of the match with t-wave or stall it out and eventually kill it with protect and leech seed!this is a counter!

or are you going to tell me that nattorei doesn't always have t-wave, leech seed or protect?cause all of the nattoreis that dont have t-wave have protect for effective recovery!

stop talking like you are always right and stop to consider that you may be wrong when all the others tell you so...
 
omg a move with 5 more bp and much easier to set up on. fuck that i would sac nattorei if the opponent was using hp fighting kingdra i would pray he was using hp fighting kingdra

umm have fun taking repeated hydro pumps? ok...its worked so far kingdra isnt that hard when you have multiple pokemon that can handle it. clearly you werent good enough for a rank

ps when in an argument and a person points out grammatical errors, that usually signals he lost the main argument so hes trying to point out other flaws in the other person

gg
 
masterful said:
Why even call Nat a counter when you are pairing it with Bloongell or Vappy? That's just silly. They both actually counter Kingdra, having Nat there has nothing to do with it
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it's called team synergy, and doesn't change the fact that Nat itself counters Kingdra well enough. And actually, in my opinion, Nat is a better first switch into Kingdra than what you assume to be better Kingdra's counters as if Buru\Vaporeon switch into a specs draco meteor they're both going to be 2hko'd.

What's really silly here is people pretending to have counters for every threat in the game, that can live 5 or more attacks. This is Gen V guys, the concept of counter\check has to change.
 
Haunter said:
it's called team synergy, and doesn't change the fact that Nat itself counters Kingdra well enough. And actually, in my opinion, Nat is a better first switch into Kingdra than what you assume to be better Kingdra's counters as if Buru\Vaporeon switch into a specs draco meteor they're both going to be 2hko'd.
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Actually if running considerable special bulk Vappy and Jellicent can come in on DM due to their healing moves and the power drop, so they are pretty safe switches to the Specs set. The issue is that they will have immense trouble with the ChestoRest DDer in particular due to even their status being shrugged off.
 
masterful said:
1)HP Fighting. Kingdra only needs a couple moves for coverage
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have fun getting your almighty 70 bp hp fighting walled by everything after hitting nattorei for 35% after leftovers,adn switching in again with your kingdra...how many times can your kingdra switch in when sr is up and you take attacks or status to switch in?do you think that your opponent will let you switch in kingdra for 2 or 3 times unharmed?
 
why are we arguing for a kingdra counter?
everyone knows it has a limited movepool
its just what hidden power can it run to beat things
honestly i would switch to my ludicolo and ice beam the natt or the shedninja
 
oh right its vulnerable to both SR and spikes and sandstorm is as common as rain.
Yeah that is what an extremely unspecialized counter that need no very specific team set up was.

Seriously yeah shedin's good but the number of switch in he give is just too many to be considered in a team
 
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