np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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astrohawke said:
If you're not saying it's broken then I really have nothing to refute. I was under the impression you thought 100% accuracy thunder/hurricane made rain broken.
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This is partially true. Voltolos and Tornelos have been mostly tame without a strong STAB to abuse and no fear of double-speed weather sweepers stopping their rampage. Now, it's open season and I'm pretty all these guys are going to dominate next round. Banning Swift Swim + Drizzle was a temporary answer, but it's going to raise a lot more questions. Questions that could have been absolved by a more sensible approach.
 
Voltolos and Tornelos in rain (as well as any other perfect Acc Shenanigains) are probably going to be short lived. Rain has been neutered to the point where you might as well run Landlos in Sand and you're basically getting the same job done but in a better weather that you can abuse with more Pokemon.
 
UltiMario said:
Voltolos and Tornelos in rain (as well as any other perfect Acc Shenanigains) are probably going to be short lived. Rain has been neutered to the point where you might as well run Landlos in Sand and you're basically getting the same job done but in a better weather that you can abuse with more Pokemon.
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Specs Starmie with Hydro Pump....how is rain offense dead?
 
Though I've had little time to play in the new meta, I'd think that Rain Offence would alter to things like Zappy, DNite and the genies abusing Thunder/Gale, along with fast or boosting water mons. Things like AgilPoeon, Sheer Force DDGatr, ScarfStarmie, and maybe CB Azumarril are what I see being used to abuse the boosted water moves. However, since the speed of these sweepers isn't intitally incredible, I doubt Rain would prove broken with them making use of the boosted water moves, especially with Manaphy now gone.
 
Well, I'm currently testing a Rain-based Offense team, and it's doing *quite* well, even take down a Sandstorm team or two.

Although, I did have my first run-in with a Rain-Stall team, while I was using a Rain Team, and I have to admite, Rain Stall shuts Rain down pretty badly. It just can't do squat against anything else, especially other weathers.

Anyway, Rotom-W is doing great, and, oddly enough, so is Garchomp [Takes Electric attacks for Emploeon, Gyarados and Politoad, meanwhile, Emploeon takes Ice attacks all day]

I'm finding Gyarados somewhat underwelming [I'm using Resttalk], although boosted Waterfalls are nice, Dragon Tail has a nasty habit of missing. Agility Emploeon is... OK, but I'm using it for Ice Beam more, which is making me consider switching to a Water/Ice type, or maybe Starmie, or another supporter.

I'm yet to try either Genie in the Rain. Getting to those. I already have Rotom for the Thunders.
 
You run into rain-stall once...and form the opinion that the style can't deal with other weather because you played one team?

Is that a joke?
 
^ Either that or he's kidding himself. I'm pretty sure he's referring to the battle I had with him (faced him a couple of hours ago). That same "Rain Stall" team has been schooling Sand Teams at the top of the ladder all of last period.
 
Sheer Force DDGatr
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sadly encourage dd gatr cannot exist yet, since dd is an egg move. i would love to abuse it this round, but all of its good moves are egg moves (dd, ice punch, aqua jet).

must be time for a choice team... scarf toed, cb gyara, cb pert, specsmie, specs tornelos, scarf something to patch up weaknesses. it's tempting.
 
Is there any reasoning behind Latios not being banned? Specs Draco Meteor just did 60% to my 252hp/200sdef Scizor (it was probably modest), making me realize that this is hardly a check. It also has loads of switch-in opportunities due to its typing, and i don't even want to start listing the shit ton of stuff it can revenge, even with a specs instead of a scarf.

I'm an offensive player, so i don't like having Nattorei/Blissey on my team. I always play either rain or sun, so i lack Tyranitar too. The way the current metagame is shaped, with Latios running rampant, actually forces me to use one of these three pokes, because it seems like they are the only checks to that move. This is definately not healthy for the metagame.

I read NailsOU's comment in PR about how it would be beneficial to keep the Latis in Standard to check the likes of Virizion and Garchomp, but we only need one of the two to do that. Let's keep the less threatening Latias, and ban that annoying Latios. Teams have to always carry one dedicated counter to switch in against that stupidly overpowered Draco Meteor, and that fact alone constitutes to Uber status.

Although this suggestion is bound to be ridiculed at first, it's time to start thinking about banning Draco Meteor instead. It is the one and only reason Latios's Specs set is so threatening and Salamence was banned last gen. We need to limit the Dragons' offensive capacity if we aim for a metagame as balanced as possible, because this offensive type was programmed by the game's creators to be unbalanced and overpowered. Since we shouldn't alter game mechanics by reducing its coverage, we might as well limit the allowed base power of Dragon-type moves.
 
Thorhammer said:
Draco Meteor is not broken on all Pokemon capable of using it, therefore it should not be banned.
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Neither was Swift Swim. If we really wanted to get down to it, we could have banned the ability on every single Pokemon besides Magikarp and Luvdisc. Drizzle did have a very strong case for being banned, enabling Swift Swim itself and adding the other boosts that made Rain teams so hard to face, but apparently, we're operating on different terms now.

So yeah, we're now at a point where we're just going to ban anything we want if we can get enough people to go for it.

It's also nowhere near "the one and only reason that Salamence was banned last gen."
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At the same time, there's no way you can claim it wasn't one of the biggest cases we had against him. Classic 50/50 argument: "You had to predict whether or not you were facing MixMence or DDMence. Predict wrong and you lose a Pokemon." Even if it's not the most elaborate and well thought out principle, this was basically what the entire discussion was about.
 
I agree about Draco Meteor, let's just focus on Latios for now. Still, this poke would be much more managable without that move, so some users may suggest to ban this combo to balance Latios out.

@Cshadow: yes. I seriously expected my specially bulky steel type to be able to take a resisted special attack much better, and i don't think that was illogical. Its damage output is just too damn high.
 
SJCrew said:
Neither was Swift Swim. If we really wanted to get down to it, we could have banned the ability on every single Pokemon besides Magikarp and Luvdisc. Drizzle did have a very strong case for being banned, enabling Swift Swim itself and adding the other boosts that made Rain teams so hard to face, but apparently, we're operating on different terms now.

So yeah, we're now at a point where we're just going to ban anything we want if we can get enough people to go for it.
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That has always been the point. If enough intelligent people feel something is u balanced or overcentralizing it will be banned. Freaking out about it now is just silly.
 
@Sxof. I imagine that SDef Heatran might help you in taking Specs Latias's hits. Does'nt help you much in Rain but it should work fine in Sunlight. And you can always run Protect on it to scout for any Surfs that might come your way.
 
SJCrew said:
Neither was Swift Swim. If we really wanted to get down to it, we could have banned the ability on every single Pokemon besides Magikarp and Luvdisc. Drizzle did have a very strong case for being banned, enabling Swift Swim itself and adding the other boosts that made Rain teams so hard to face, but apparently, we're operating on different terms now.

So yeah, we're now at a point where we're just going to ban anything we want if we can get enough people to go for it.
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We did not ban Swift Swim, and for damn good reason.
 
Seriously why I am the only one using Sharpedo? This guy is amazing when paired with Politoed, and unlike the Swift Swimmers it has the advantage of still being fast in the Sand. I run Adamant @ LO, max attack / max speed, Waterfall / Crunch / EQ / Protect.

It can revenge a bunch of shit by first Protecting, and then using the appropriate move. It OHKOs Ttar in sand and Gliscor in the Rain (I think for both the damage calcs are something like 95% - 110%). Latios just killed something? Switch in, Protect, then Crunch it. Same for Garchomp if it's locked in Outrage (Waterfall does like 80% in the rain fyi). Same for Landlos, but watch out for Sub & Rock Polish. This thing can even get a sweep going in the sand if your opponent doesn't catch on early enough, and you get to +3 before Dorry comes out. Ferrothorn can be a problem, as EQ only does a measly ~ 35%, but seriously guys, apart from Ferrothorn, this thing rips holes through so many OU teams it's actually quite hilarious.

Also, having something slow U-turn to Sharpedo is a great way to safely bring it in, and once you do, something on your opponent's team is losing half its health or dying.
 
Unfortunately not :/
But Speed Boost is still pretty great. It's basically a worse Kabutops on the whole. Sacrifices the ability to completely rip through teams after a SD for the ability to still be useful outside of rain. Sharpedo is just a tiny bit stronger before Kabuto SDs.
 
Thorhammer said:
We did not ban Swift Swim, and for damn good reason.
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Right, we banned Swift Swim + Drizzle. But surely, one must agree that the concept of a ban including Draco Meteor + a Dragon with over 100 Sp. Att would prove to be largely beneficial to the state of the metagame? We could go lower than that in the event that we can prove Dragonite with Draco Meteor is broken. Or perhaps we can stick to Latios and just strip him of his strongest move so that he'll become balanced?
 
CB Scizor does 58-68% to Sharpedo, and it's still walled by most physically bulky pokes.
@ginganinja: Sure, and in sun Surf wouldn't be that much of an issue, i'll try it out, but EVing Heatran in Sdef in an offensive team just to check a single poke shows overcentralization, no?
 
Also, doesn't Sharpedo have higher Speed than Doryuuzu? Why would it have to to get to +3 to take it down?

Sharpedo sounds like a great idea, and has the ability to even sweep in Sand if given a turn or two. Along with other Rain abusers, it sounds quite formidable.

sxof, what physically bulky pokemon are on a standard Sand team that aren't weak to Waterfall besides Nattorei?
 
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