np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[SHUCKLE MAN]

If you had to ban everything in the game that involved chance, you'd have to ban, most of everything!

Think about it, you'd have to ban every attack move that can get a critical hit, has a chance of inflicting a status and doesn't have 100% accuracy, so you're left with, um, Seismic Toss, Dragon Rage and, er Mirror Coat?

Yeah, I think we get the picture. :D

 

[JSND]

might as well as ban critical, every haxl and make every game 100 % according to plan
Result :
Pokemon become uninteresting anymore.....

I ask you do you want to do/watch thing that will goes that and that way alone 100 % of the time ? no for me. The suspense of Crithax, parahx etc is what make pokemon interesting to me.

Evasion and inconsistent is coin flip in a whole but para hax isnt too much. Seriously you might as well play chess if you dont like having little hax in the whole game

Lets see if you ban chance move(not counting imperfect acc) this is the move you are banning in a whole

Ele punch
Dy punch
Outrage
Elemental beam
Elemental Blast
Sacred Fire
Charge Beam
Flame dance

etc

right you just banned every common move in the meta.

THEN you say lets make the simulator not simulate crits etc. Okay we ARE simulating the game. We DONT make the game in our own way. Thats all

 

[TacoBot]

You basically have to stop Machamp from attacking or completely neuter DynamicPunch and take him out at the same time.

Sounds like time for Gengar to carry Psychic.

 

[JSND]

Hippo + Gyara combo = goodbye champ.(for stall only)
Anyway in this meta NG seems to be quite meh.
Poli use Specs Pump !!! OHKO
soooo yeah

 

[NC]

The suspense of Crithax, parahx etc is what make pokemon interesting to me.

Evasion and inconsistent is coin flip in a whole but para hax isnt too much. Seriously you might as well play chess if you dont like having little hax in the whole game

What? Confusion is absolutely a coin flip and paralysis is effectively two coin flips, thus being even MORE hax.

Also, the above three posters using extreme slippery slope arguments are actually showing how stupid the evasion, OHKOs, and inconsistent on everything apart from octillery and possibly bibarel are and that they all should be retested (and by retested I mean tested for the first time as they were banned completely based on theorymon).

edit: I mean first 3 posts on this page

 

[Fluffy Otters]

What? Confusion is absolutely a coin flip and paralysis is effectively two coin flips, thus being even MORE hax.

Also, the above three posters using extreme slippery slope arguments are actually showing how stupid the evasion, OHKOs, and inconsistent on everything apart from octillery and possibly bibarel are and that they all should be retested (and by retested I mean tested for the first time as they were banned completely based on theorymon).

edit: I mean first 3 posts on this page

Inconsistent was banned on more than just theorymon. People who played/face it know how annoying as heck and cheap it was and how it turned losing games into winning ones and depending on ones luck absolutely made skill pointless. There is a LARGE difference between things like Confusion and Parahax or even annoying Shaymin-S flinch hax (which also got banned for that reason in addition to Seed Flare) and Inconsistent. Inconsistent has few counters and it's counters were...Inconsistent. Like a Clear Smog Poke could be destroyed if the Inconsistent User got a Attacking boost, Haze is only temporary and again with an attack boost, Whirlwind and friends had a tendency of MISSING when it got an evasion boost, it was nearly impossible to hit after evasion+Sub and Protect, Inconsistent users OUTSTALLED things like Calm Mind Latis and Zapdos (Octillery) and WON, Inconsistent had a fairly consistent chance of letting BIDOOF take out UBERS, Smeargle Inconsistent even more so with Assist Power and being able to Baton Pass Belly Drums and Shell Smashes in adition to Inconsistent boosts, etc etc etc.

Inconsistent ALWAYS happened. What the effect was you didn't know but it ALWAYS had a chance of doing something. That is a problem and in any game, things like this are broken because they're guaranteed to do something for NOTHING. -1 is not enough of a drawback on it, especially since it was possible to sub near infinity with Sub/Protect/Evasion together until you got +4s, +6s etc and sweep. And most of it's "counters" were entirely situational, just sucked, or were on pretty meh pokemon that died to anything non-Inconsistent. Inconsistent gives far too much power and advantage. Unbanning evasion has a far more likely chance of happening than Inconsistent (then again, Double Team isn't all that great but Minimize on certain things named Chansey/Blissey would be ARGH, especially since Minimize is +2 now).

 

[NC]

Inconsistent was banned on more than just theorymon. People who played/face it know how annoying as heck and cheap it was and how it turned losing games into winning ones and depending on ones luck absolutely made skill pointless.

That's a bold statement to make. You are asserting that the most skilled player would have a 50% chance to lose to a completely unskilled player if inconsistent is involved.

There is a LARGE difference between things like Confusion and Parahax or even annoying Shaymin-S flinch hax (which also got banned for that reason in addition to Seed Flare) and Inconsistent. Inconsistent has few counters and it's counters were...Inconsistent. Like a Clear Smog Poke could be destroyed if the Inconsistent User got a Attacking boost, Haze is only temporary and again with an attack boost, Whirlwind and friends had a tendency of MISSING when it got an evasion boost, it was nearly impossible to hit after evasion+Sub and Protect, Inconsistent users OUTSTALLED things like Calm Mind Latis and Zapdos (Octillery) and WON, Inconsistent had a fairly consistent chance of letting BIDOOF take out UBERS, Smeargle Inconsistent even more so with Assist Power and being able to Baton Pass Belly Drums and Shell Smashes in adition to Inconsistent boosts, etc etc etc.

Inconsistent ALWAYS happened. What the effect was you didn't know but it ALWAYS had a chance of doing something. That is a problem and in any game, things like this are broken because they're guaranteed to do something for NOTHING. -1 is not enough of a drawback on it, especially since it was possible to sub near infinity with Sub/Protect/Evasion together until you got +4s, +6s etc and sweep. And most of it's "counters" were entirely situational, just sucked, or were on pretty meh pokemon that died to anything non-Inconsistent. Inconsistent gives far too much power and advantage. Unbanning evasion has a far more likely chance of happening than Inconsistent (then again, Double Team isn't all that great but Minimize on certain things named Chansey/Blissey would be ARGH, especially since Minimize is +2 now).

I somewhat agree here (at least about octillery, as it was actually tested) except for two things. One, people in general did not play against inconsistent correctly. Very often when I used it, people attempted to set up on the user rather than just attacking it, which was very suboptimal, as the inconsistent user "automatically" sets up so it gets maxed out faster. Just because you think you should be able to set up on octillery doesn't mean you are actually able to. Next, who are you to say how good a pokemon "should" be? If bidoof is good because of its ability, then bidoof is good because of its ability. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. Shedinja "shouldn't" be able to counter and take out kyogre, but only its ability allows it to do so.

Also, I never came across this situation but I would guess you are exaggerating when you say bidoof could consistently take out ubers ._.

In regards to your points about evasion, if you think evasion is OK on some pokemon but not others, wouldn't that suggest that the pokemon, and not the move is the problem?

 

[Ninja_13]

"Also, I never came across this situation but I would guess you are exaggerating when you say bidoof could consistently take out ubers ._."

I don't know why you would say bidoof "consistently" beats Ubers with Inconsistent, since Inconsistent is never consistent (hence the name), but a log was posted in the 1st suspect thread of a Bidoof 6-0ing an Ubers team. So no, it wasn't an exaggeration when he said that.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Machamp isn't broken.
Rankurusu counters 100% of the time.
As does half of the metagame.
Roob is much more of a threat,with it's amazing bulk and power.
Lanturn does parafuse. It's not broken.

I have to agree with this. In 4th gen it was definitely broken, but thanks to the nerf that payback got, a lot more can switch into him now.

However, I don't agree that roob is more of a threat. He doesn't have no guard to spam dynamicpunch with, so it's easier to switch in and counter him that it is with machamp.

 

[IcyMan28]

Machamp has not been broken in any meta. It is bulky but not ridiculously so either, and its low speed means it can be preyed upon by essentially the entire metagame.

Toss Gliscor in your team to tank Dynamicpunch, then go to an Ice resist as it attempts to Ice Punch and call it a day.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Well, people thinking that Machamp is broken is the most hilarious thing I've seen in a while.
Scared of Machamp, Jirachi, bulky waters or ghosts? Lum berry's right for you.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Machamp has not been broken in any meta. It is bulky but not ridiculously so either, and its low speed means it can be preyed upon by essentially the entire metagame.

Toss Gliscor in your team to tank Dynamicpunch, then go to an Ice resist as it attempts to Ice Punch and call it a day.

It's not that easy. Maybe gliscor wins against the standard set, but what about a guts/toxic orb/ice punch variant??

 

[Thorhammer]

It's not that easy. Maybe gliscor wins against the standard set, but what about a guts/toxic orb/ice punch variant??

Guts/Toxic Orb Machamp can easily be handled by plenty of other things. Gliscor may not be able to defeat every variant of Machamp, but it can defeat the ones that give people the most trouble.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

It's not that easy. Maybe gliscor wins against the standard set, but what about a guts/toxic orb/ice punch variant??

Without a recovery move, that Machamp won't last too much with its terrible defenses, so almost anything else can take it out.

 

[Typhlosion]

Without a recovery move, that Machamp won't last too much with its terrible defenses, so almost anything else can take it out.

Doesn't Machamp get Drain Punch? It's not too reliable but it's a lot better than nothing, especially this gen with the power boost.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Without a recovery move, that Machamp won't last too much with its terrible defenses, so almost anything else can take it out.

Smogon's defnition of a counter is something that is able to switch into a threat and counter it. His speed may be pitiful, but you tell me one thing that can switch into a choice band machamp and counter it. If you have toxic spikes, and a choice band guts machamp comes in, nothing can switch in safely.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Machamp doesnt learn Drain Punch, oddly. Togekiss, on the other hand...

@lmitchell
Same goes for most pokemon with guts. Roob makes a way better guts abuser and he isnt nowhere near broken.

 

[UnhandledException]

Smogon's defnition of a counter is something that is able to switch into a threat and counter it. His speed may be pitiful, but you tell me one thing that can switch into a choice band machamp and counter it. If you have toxic spikes, and a choice band guts machamp comes in, nothing can switch in safely.

Gliscor, Slowbro, Lati@s, Spiritomb, hell even Gardevoir and Sash Magic Guard Alakazam can all come in to Choiced Fighting type moves, outspeed and KO Machamp or at least scare it out. That's pretty much everything that resists Fighting and has a Super-Effecive attack to KO Machamp with.

And Own Tempo Slowbro is a fantasic Bulky Water which pretty much hard counters any Machamp really...

 

[ginganinja]

Evo Stone Dusclops can switch into most attacks. Spiritomb can pressure stall. Desukan can switch in and NP up if it wants. Machamp becomes a worse Roobusion if it runs Guts imo as No Guard it its main selling point over Roob. Also just use fucking prediction (which is mentioned in many analysis's that have a Choice set mentioned.

EDIT
Lol ninja'ed quite badly

 

[supermarth64]

If you have toxic spikes, and a choice band guts machamp comes in, nothing can switch in safely.

Stop. We are not having this conversation. You've used this terrible argument back in 4th gen also. Not all Pokemon have "perfect counters". You can't assume everything is on your side (aka 3 layers of spikes, 2 layers of tspikes, 1 SR, sandstorm is up for more residual damage, etc). Using that logic, Lucario has no counters because you can just HP Ice Gliscor or Close Combat a Blissey coming in expecting an Aura Sphere. Sometimes Pokemon have no immediate counters. Choice Band Dragonite's Outrage is immensely powerful but is it uber? No. Stop using this terrible argument and learn to play the game. Sacrifice what you need to at certain times in the match and switch in something that can handle Machamp. If your team can't handle a Pokemon, then maybe you should fix it so you can check it better.

There's another thing called prediction. You can't automatically assume that Machamp will hit the Pokemon with a super effective move. What if the opponent predicts that and brings in something that resists that move? What if you predict that switch and hit that Pokemon with a super effective move instead? You can't automatically assume you make the right move. That's the flaw in your argument. And even if you hit Slowbro with a Choice Banded ThunderPunch, what's to stop him from going to Landlos and setting up a Swords Dance/Rock Polish and sweeping your team?

 

[voodoo pimp]

That's a bold statement to make. You are asserting that the most skilled player would have a 50% chance to lose to a completely unskilled player if inconsistent is involved.

That's actually not at all what he said, but it's not much of an exaggeration. People would often lose to much less skilled players, because it takes very little to skill to spam Sub/Protect. You obviously never played against it if you really think it isn't that bad.

I somewhat agree here (at least about octillery, as it was actually tested) except for two things. One, people in general did not play against inconsistent correctly. Very often when I used it, people attempted to set up on the user rather than just attacking it, which was very suboptimal, as the inconsistent user "automatically" sets up so it gets maxed out faster. Just because you think you should be able to set up on octillery doesn't mean you are actually able to. Next, who are you to say how good a pokemon "should" be? If bidoof is good because of its ability, then bidoof is good because of its ability. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. Shedinja "shouldn't" be able to counter and take out kyogre, but only its ability allows it to do so.

Also, I never came across this situation but I would guess you are exaggerating when you say bidoof could consistently take out ubers ._.

In regards to your points about evasion, if you think evasion is OK on some pokemon but not others, wouldn't that suggest that the pokemon, and not the move is the problem?

Attacking it won't do any good when they get a defense boost and your attacks stop breaking their subs, or an evasion boost and your attacks start missing, or attack and speed boosts and they just attack you instead. There is no "correct" way to beat it because no way works consistently. Shedinja counters Kyogre because of its ability. So what? It gets KO'd by 90% of offensive movesets, any set with a status move, any entry hazards, and half the weathers. The fact that it beats one Uber does not make it broken. Inconsistent beats everything. That's why it's broken.

On an unrelated note, in the future, post your responses in a quotable form. People shouldn't have to put in that much effort to respond to you properly.

 

[NC]

That's actually not at all what he said, but it's not much of an exaggeration. People would often lose to much less skilled players, because it takes very little to skill to spam Sub/Protect. You obviously never played against it if you really think it isn't that bad.
Attacking it won't do any good when they get a defense boost and your attacks stop breaking their subs, or an evasion boost and your attacks start missing, or attack and speed boosts and they just attack you instead. There is no "correct" way to beat it because no way works consistently. Shedinja counters Kyogre because of its ability. So what? It gets KO'd by 90% of offensive movesets, any set with a status move, any entry hazards, and half the weathers. The fact that it beats one Uber does not make it broken. Inconsistent beats everything. That's why it's broken.

If the win ratio between skilled and unskilled is not 50-50, then the ability is not turning the entire game into luck. What is the reason for any other ratio, other than skill still being involved?

Believe me, I have used and played against inconsistent many times and not once did I experience the opponent getting the correct defense, attack, and evasion boost all at once in the same turn. Of course it could get the correct boost at an opportune time, but if you attack rather than set up on the pokemon, you are lowering the chances of this happening significantly. I actually agree that it made octillery overpowered (and it seemed that way for bibarel and smeargle (if released) too) but it wasn't even tested on the pokemon that aren't as bulky and/or powerful and was banned for them purely based on theorymon. It should absolutely be retested on snorunt, glalie, bidoof (lol shedinja has swept an uber team at least once too I bet, who cares...), and remoraid.

Also, I mentioned shedinja because of the double standard people (not you personally, but many in the actual thread about it) are exhibiting when they say things like "a bad pokemon like octillery shouldn't be able to set up on [pokemon x]." Why is it that octillery needs its ability banned so it can be bad like it "supposed" to be, yet it is ok for shedinja to have an ability that lets it counter the top threat in the game. Why is it that octillery (or bidoof or whatever) "should" be bad? Shedinja is actually still not very good so it isn't a great example, but the same could be said for azumarill or xatu, or even gengar, scizor, and tyranitar.

On an unrelated note, in the future, post your responses in a quotable form. People shouldn't have to put in that much effort to respond to you properly.

Will do.


@ Previous two posters: Interesting that having an opinion not shared by the majority is trolling. I find it especially funny as I have not used any of the useless ad hominem arguments that have been prevalent in many of these debates, as well as used against me in this one.

 

[masterful]

@ Previous two posters: Interesting that having an opinion not shared by the majority is trolling. I find it especially funny as I have not used any of the useless ad hominem arguments that have been prevalent in many of these debates, as well as used against me in this one.

Just a thought, when you use debate terminology for logical fallacies, make sure to actually UNDERSTAND what point you are making. While many people on this thread find it difficult to argue without the use of personal attacks, they are very infrequently used in a way that implies that one's argument is wrong by merit of his/her faults (one notable exceptiong being one post directed at me that completely failed to reognize my pooints by merit of my icbb status, which he implied I earned through not knowing what I was talking about). There is a difference betwen debating dickishly and fallaciously. Regardless of whatever moral high ground you may achieve in your language, if your points make no sense and have no backing, they WILL be shot down, and vehemently so.

 

[NC]

First of all, personal attacks are not necessary if you have good arguments on their own merit, and secondly, this "moral high ground" is completely irrelevant to the debate. The only reason I said that was in response to the trolling accusations, which I find laughable. If my points are so horrible and fallacious as you say, I would appreciate you actually responding to them. Out of the five posts on this page, only the first said anything of any substance.

My main question is this: Why is it that evasion, OHKOs, and inconsistent (on bidoof, remoraid, snorunt, and glalie) arbitrarily banned, yet things like brightpowder, snow cloak, confusion-inducing attacks, paralysis inducing attacks, moves with <100% accuracy or secondary effects, [insert more ridiculous things that absolutely involve chance], etc. are allowed? It can't be because they are too good, as we have no way to know that for sure, given that they have not been tested. It also can't be because of the luck involved because there is 0 difference between [the effects of] brightpowder and double team (saying you can boost double team would put it in the "too good" category I just addressed) and that would also require the other ridiculous things I mentioned to be banned as well. Attempting to quantify the luck (i.e. double team is MORE luck-based than rock slide) is not a real argument, as anything that involves chance involved "luck."

 

[voodoo pimp]

If the win ratio between skilled and unskilled is not 50-50, then the ability is not turning the entire game into luck. What is the reason for any other ratio, other than skill still being involved?

Perhaps it is somewhat arbitrary. But the majority of people who voted it feel that it is unacceptable while other things is, and the banning process is at least somewhat democratic.

Believe me, I have used and played against inconsistent many times and not once did I experience the opponent getting the correct defense, attack, and evasion boost all at once in the same turn. Of course it could get the correct boost at an opportune time, but if you attack rather than set up on the pokemon, you are lowering the chances of this happening significantly.

It doesn't happen in one turn. Sub, Protect, repeat ad nauseam. You get a bunch of turns of guaranteed stalling, and that's if they break your sub every time and never miss.

Also, I mentioned shedinja because of the double standard people (not you personally, but many in the actual thread about it) are exhibiting when they say things like "a bad pokemon like octillery shouldn't be able to set up on [pokemon x]." Why is it that octillery needs its ability banned so it can be bad like it "supposed" to be, yet it is ok for shedinja to have an ability that lets it counter the top threat in the game. Why is it that octillery (or bidoof or whatever) "should" be bad? Shedinja is actually still not very good so it isn't a great example, but the same could be said for azumarill or xatu, or even gengar, scizor, and tyranitar.

I can't speak for those people, but I don't really think that "bad Pokémon should stay bad" was the logic used here. Smeargle is not bad at all, and it would still have been banned if stuff like Scizor got it.