-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
Because we are supposedly a competitive site. Lots of things aren't fun to play against, but we don't ban them unless they are broken.
And as far as its brokenness goes, that's been all over the board. I've heard everything from it being an instant win to it being barely worth it. So what's the real deal? Does Inconsistent really sweep teams on a regular basis, or is it just that it does it once every so often, but people choose to remember those times?
Toxic Spikes. No Inconsistent user is immune.
Also, phaze it out. The odds of you failing are actually extremely low. Last Pokemon? Put something in it can't touch and stall it out of PP.
Toxic Spikes require that you succesfully set up the spikes and keep them from being spun away.
Phazing is unreliable with the Evasion boosts (and Dragon Tail is blocked by subs, significantly cutting down the list of viable users), and the only thing that can really PP stall them is maybe Deoxys-D? Even that is going down if they get a lucky crit.
PP stalling is just a really bad argument for anything. You're basically admitting it you can't beat it by attacking and killing it, so you have to wait until it runs out of moves. Is there anything in OU that applies to besides Inconsistent? Should we set a new competitive standard and start playing that way with Inconsistent on every other team (or maybe just the top teams)?
Fuck no. Inconsistent was broken and it's not fair to play against just because Petrie5000 said so. Literally every voter, save for one, wanted it banned. We had the same theorymon arguments going on when it was in the metagame, and they never, ever worked. You either have to already be in the middle of a sweep or stall them out of PP. See: circumstantial bullshit.
I don't know why I even click on this thread anymore.
Fuck no. Inconsistent was broken and it's not fair to play against just because Petrie5000 said so. Literally every voter, save for one, wanted it banned. We had the same theorymon arguments going on when it was in the metagame, and they never, ever worked. You either have to already be in the middle of a sweep or stall them out of PP. See: circumstantial bullshit.
I don't know why I even click on this thread anymore.
too bad anyone with half a brain will just use Tentacruel or something and hey presto! no Toxic Spikes. Heck Tentacruel can set up its own toxic spikes letting the inconstant abuser stall you out.
Indeed. You try to keep Tspikes on the field while the Inconsistent user tries to get rid of them and set up his Inconsistent mons. Similarly, a Doryuuzu user will try to get rid of Doryuuzu's counters before sweeping with him. This is just standard fare for Pokemon.
Phazing is not unreliable with evasion boosts. Even if your opponent gets lucky and nabs an evasion boost early *and* is not hit with an evasion reduction, your phaze still has 60% accuracy. Which means your opponent has only a 16% chance of not getting phazed even in this very favorable to him scenario.
Except most other counters don't require two turns of set up every time you force them out.
Unless, y'know, they just attack you instead. And if they take our your phazer, you're totally screwed, unlike most other top threats where you can usually wear them down.
Except Inconsistent doesn't NEED to remove anything because all of its "counters" are so few and barely viable that no one uses them.
There's a huge chance that the Inconsistent user will sweep your team.
petrie,stop and think. Why are YOU the only one defending Inconsistent? Is it because you're the only one who's right,or is it because Inconsistent is broken and unhealthy for the metagame?
I agree with what acritter said, and not only that, but does Manaphy even HAVE another ability? I mean really guys, Aldaron's proposal was undeniably made to weather a storm before it got any bigger, and it was, in my opinion, the best idea considering the circumstances.
I honestly did not think you guys would be this ridiculous and suggest continuing this proposal on everything. How about we just bring down Rayquaza to OU on the condition that it cannot use any boosting moves or a Life Orb? Granted, that's an unreasonable comparison, but it's just giving you a scope on how this and possibly future generations might turn out given this route.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that when a Pokemon is broken, it's broken. Putting restrictions on it for the sake of making it viable, not broken, BUT to the point where it could potentially put restrictions on other pokemon which are already and potentially only viable with this ability is ludicrous, and definitely NOT a characteristic of a healthy metagame.
Also, to contribute to the current discussion, the fact is Inconsistent is a bullshit ability. I would say more about it but:
SSJ pretty much summed it up.
Not only that, but one thing that makes Inconsistent so broken is that you can potentially come back down 6-1 because of a few bullshit boosts. When the game turns into a more luck than skill based game, something's wrong. That something was Inconsistent before it was banned.
I honestly did not think you guys would be this ridiculous and suggest continuing this proposal on everything. How about we just bring down Rayquaza to OU on the condition that it cannot use any boosting moves or a Life Orb? Granted, that's an unreasonable comparison, but it's just giving you a scope on how this and possibly future generations might turn out given this route.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that when a Pokemon is broken, it's broken. Putting restrictions on it for the sake of making it viable, not broken, BUT to the point where it could potentially put restrictions on other pokemon which are already and potentially only viable with this ability is ludicrous, and definitely NOT a characteristic of a healthy metagame.
Also, to contribute to the current discussion, the fact is Inconsistent is a bullshit ability. I would say more about it but:
SSJ pretty much summed it up.
Not only that, but one thing that makes Inconsistent so broken is that you can potentially come back down 6-1 because of a few bullshit boosts. When the game turns into a more luck than skill based game, something's wrong. That something was Inconsistent before it was banned.
I can assure you. I simply threw Ap Smeargle and Espeon on a gimmick OU team that I already had before (it had Sableye on it) and I was able to win around 75% of my matches IN UBERS
Actually, 2 voted OU, including myself. The strategies for beating it worked for me, but anyways...
This thread just gets crappier and crappier by the day.
We have people saying we should bring Lugia and Ho-oh down for testing, ban Machamp, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, Brightpowder, and now we're debating fucking Inconsistent of all things?
Let's try and talk about something worth arguing over, like Doryuuzu, Randorosu, and Latios. Now that Rain will be less prevalent, what sort of affect do you think they are going to have? Dory and Randorosu generally have no trouble with opposing steels, and Latios can take out Dory and Randorosu's main checks very easily.
We have people saying we should bring Lugia and Ho-oh down for testing, ban Machamp, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, Brightpowder, and now we're debating fucking Inconsistent of all things?
Let's try and talk about something worth arguing over, like Doryuuzu, Randorosu, and Latios. Now that Rain will be less prevalent, what sort of affect do you think they are going to have? Dory and Randorosu generally have no trouble with opposing steels, and Latios can take out Dory and Randorosu's main checks very easily.
I definately think we are going to see a huge rise in usage from latios (dory's can't get much higher). Rotom-w IMO will end up being as high in usage as Ttar was last round. He can effectively counter dory and landlos, he can take a +2 rock slide from dory and Ohko back with rock slide.
Hydro Pump, I presume?
I need to experiment with Rotom-W; I haven't ever used it as a dory counter. Pity it can't counter Terakion though.
A single miss means that the Inconsistant user gets a free turn to stall for more misses or whittle down your phazer.
Considering your opponent can switch in an Inconsistant abuser safely 5-6 times in a match, and you have to be able to successfully phaze it every time in order to not lose, it's definitely not reliable way to actually deal with the threat, as opposed to just delaying it.
Wobbuffet is currently not banned, and it has displayed nothing in this generation to suggest that it should be.
I love how the only things you say are attacks at me based on posts that weren't even directed at you. I'd like to know Ala's justification for voting Inc OU, and you would do well to say something besides an attack on me for once
^^^
It's funny to hear to you complaining about personal attacks.
Your post @ Ala was more of an attack than iDunno's.
To actually contribute, I agree with Thorhammer that Wobb is completely fine. I can, however, see a ride in the usage of sand counters. People are almost certainly going to think "OMG Sand is going to dominate I should pack 4 counters!!!!!". Not everyone will have that type of mindset, but...
It's funny to hear to you complaining about personal attacks.
Your post @ Ala was more of an attack than iDunno's.
To actually contribute, I agree with Thorhammer that Wobb is completely fine. I can, however, see a ride in the usage of sand counters. People are almost certainly going to think "OMG Sand is going to dominate I should pack 4 counters!!!!!". Not everyone will have that type of mindset, but...
I justify it simply by the fact that I earned the right to vote and I could vote however I wanted. I've told my reasons to many people, and I don't feel like repeating them over and over every time someone asks.
On the topic of Wobbuffet, I've nominated him for Uber both rounds so far. Even though he isn't used very much, I still find him to be extremely threatening. I'll be testing him a lot this round for sure.
Moving on from this pointless babble, I want to bring up Doryuuzu again for some discussion. Despite being heavily nominated in round 2, it was yet again not banned.
The biggest problem I have with Dory is that it requires a counter as well as 4 specific revenge killers (breloom, roobushin, hitmontop, azumarill) to be 100% safe from a sweep. There are times when your main counter to something has taken a beating from something else and is no longer able do its job. It's fine for most threats because you can let something die and then bring in something faster to revenge kill the threat. But you can't with Doryuuzu because nothing outspeeds it.
I guess what I'm saying is a counter + generic revenge killer like scarfchomp is not enough. You need a counter + breloom/roob/top/azumarill to be 100% safe and that really limits team building diversity for me because countering Dory is one of the main things teams have to consider.
Another problem is that despite what people say, there aren't that many good counters to it. Gliscor is the best one obviously but everything else has its flaws. Things like gyarados or rotom-W can be flinched at the wrong moment or have hydro pump miss and they die. Normally this isn't a problem for other threats because you usually have something else that will revenge kill it but for doryuuzu, that one flinch or miss is very costly as once your counter is gone, that's it. Which really ties back to the 1st issue of needing 2 pokemon to effectively stop it from sweeping you.
The biggest problem I have with Dory is that it requires a counter as well as 4 specific revenge killers (breloom, roobushin, hitmontop, azumarill) to be 100% safe from a sweep. There are times when your main counter to something has taken a beating from something else and is no longer able do its job. It's fine for most threats because you can let something die and then bring in something faster to revenge kill the threat. But you can't with Doryuuzu because nothing outspeeds it.
I guess what I'm saying is a counter + generic revenge killer like scarfchomp is not enough. You need a counter + breloom/roob/top/azumarill to be 100% safe and that really limits team building diversity for me because countering Dory is one of the main things teams have to consider.
Another problem is that despite what people say, there aren't that many good counters to it. Gliscor is the best one obviously but everything else has its flaws. Things like gyarados or rotom-W can be flinched at the wrong moment or have hydro pump miss and they die. Normally this isn't a problem for other threats because you usually have something else that will revenge kill it but for doryuuzu, that one flinch or miss is very costly as once your counter is gone, that's it. Which really ties back to the 1st issue of needing 2 pokemon to effectively stop it from sweeping you.
I don't think inconsistent was banned unfairly, I just think that it wasn't impossible to handle by using viable pokemon otherwise (which is why I mentioned deoxys-d and suicune). I wouldn't have mentioned cune if not for rest.
In any case, aside from lati@s being in standard now, what has changed that allows Garchomp to roam standard now? The statement I hear is, "The metagame has become more agressive, so Garchomp doesn't seem as broken anymore". This statement doesn't necessarily specify anything. Nattorei is not tanking +2 fire fangs, especially if you opt to run garchomp in the sun. Niether is Skarmory. Jellicient is not taking +2 outrages either. Chomp is still hitting just as hard as he was able to hit last gen. This is not an arguement as to why Chomp should be banned, as I've had little trouble with him so far. I had even less trouble with him in Gen 4 and he was banned there anyway. So I would simply like to know how Garchomp has avoided suspect this time around. New checks and counters? The same can be said even easier about Ho-oh (whom I honestly believe should remain where he is. Any arguements I may have made for him at any time were just me playing Devil's advocate).
On the subject of Latios, I would also like to know what changed for him as well. How has fifth gen changed the metagame to allow Latios to fit better in standard. Unlike with garchomp, I honestly believe Latios should get the hell out of here.
Latios hits way too hard and can do way too much. Running a choice specs, he crushes switch ins underfoot with sheer power. We all know how hard specs draco meteor hits, with defensive steels losing around half of their health from it. On rain teams, Latios can just spam surf. Even steels will be losing a hefty amount from that. Ferrothorn? Outside of drizzle, hp fire is common on him. Ignoring the fact that trick cripples what already walls him, special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax get chewed up badly by things such as psycho shock. If Latios were a MTG card, he would read, "Flying, Destroy target permanant upon entering the battlefield"
Latios can be revenged, but you'll most likely lose something in the process or have a severely crippled pokemon. Ho-oh can be revenged simply by switching in an infernape, terakion, scarf tyranitar, gyarados, sand rush excadrill/sandslash, landorus, gliscor, kojondo, archeops, aerodactyl, wobbufett, rain boosted attacks, etc. But this doesn't matter because Ho-oh is an obvious powerhouse and is uber regardless. So I don't believe that switching in something that will cause Latios to switch out after it kills something justifies its spot in standard.
I'm not going to rant on his other sets simply because I lack the experience with them currently. Latios was shunned in place of rain and reuniclus last round. I wonder how long that attitude will last.
In any case, aside from lati@s being in standard now, what has changed that allows Garchomp to roam standard now? The statement I hear is, "The metagame has become more agressive, so Garchomp doesn't seem as broken anymore". This statement doesn't necessarily specify anything. Nattorei is not tanking +2 fire fangs, especially if you opt to run garchomp in the sun. Niether is Skarmory. Jellicient is not taking +2 outrages either. Chomp is still hitting just as hard as he was able to hit last gen. This is not an arguement as to why Chomp should be banned, as I've had little trouble with him so far. I had even less trouble with him in Gen 4 and he was banned there anyway. So I would simply like to know how Garchomp has avoided suspect this time around. New checks and counters? The same can be said even easier about Ho-oh (whom I honestly believe should remain where he is. Any arguements I may have made for him at any time were just me playing Devil's advocate).
On the subject of Latios, I would also like to know what changed for him as well. How has fifth gen changed the metagame to allow Latios to fit better in standard. Unlike with garchomp, I honestly believe Latios should get the hell out of here.
Latios hits way too hard and can do way too much. Running a choice specs, he crushes switch ins underfoot with sheer power. We all know how hard specs draco meteor hits, with defensive steels losing around half of their health from it. On rain teams, Latios can just spam surf. Even steels will be losing a hefty amount from that. Ferrothorn? Outside of drizzle, hp fire is common on him. Ignoring the fact that trick cripples what already walls him, special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax get chewed up badly by things such as psycho shock. If Latios were a MTG card, he would read, "Flying, Destroy target permanant upon entering the battlefield"
Latios can be revenged, but you'll most likely lose something in the process or have a severely crippled pokemon. Ho-oh can be revenged simply by switching in an infernape, terakion, scarf tyranitar, gyarados, sand rush excadrill/sandslash, landorus, gliscor, kojondo, archeops, aerodactyl, wobbufett, rain boosted attacks, etc. But this doesn't matter because Ho-oh is an obvious powerhouse and is uber regardless. So I don't believe that switching in something that will cause Latios to switch out after it kills something justifies its spot in standard.
I'm not going to rant on his other sets simply because I lack the experience with them currently. Latios was shunned in place of rain and reuniclus last round. I wonder how long that attitude will last.
- Status