np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[PK Gaming]

You do not need to switch in safely to be regarded as a check. That's a counter. Thunderus and Tornadus, I am assuming, can both take a hit after -2 Draco Meteor and 2HKO. I'd also assume Surf isn't doing much to Thunderus.

You need to switch into SOME moves at least in order to be considered a check. According to you anything that can take 1 hit from -2 Draco Meteor on the revenge kill is a check (which is damn well near everything) Example of a proper check: Azumarill could check Blaziken by switching into anything other than Hi jump kick.

Latios deals (68.6% - 81.3%) with -2 Specs Draco Meteor against the genie twins, meaning they have a chance of being OHKOed with Stealth rock. (its damn near guaranteed if sand is in play) Specs surf is doing quite a bit of damage too (62.5% - 73.9%) so I would hardly say its "not doing much." These pokemon aren't checks.

Latios doesn't need HP Fire to be effective, but it still has checks, and many trappers for specific situations to capitalize on. If it runs HP Fire, its losing to other Latios, Gengar, and Latias.

Running HP fire is worth it to get by several checks like Jirachi (weakened) Scizor (non-CB) Nattorei & Excavalier. Running HP fire isn't really a big penalty. Gengar is nowhere near dominant in this metagame, so getting outsped by him is no big deal. Sure you auto-lose to opposing Lati@s but its worth it. Also speed ties are dumb.

Latias does Calm mind sets better, so I don't know why people mention this.

I'd say that Latias is a better defensive Calm Mind user, while Latios is a better offensive Calm mind user. That extra special bulk Latias has over Latios is neglible after a +1 SpD boost. Latias isn't far behind though as an offensive CM though. I prefer using Latias as my offensive CM user though.

 

[Miscellaneous]

If latios or latias is broken. Then go and use them and prove it. Hardly ever lose. Abuse the hell out of them. That will prove to others that they are broken. It will force others to use them. It will create a situation where a ban is required.

It is utterly fruitless to say something is ridiculously broken with pure theorymon. Go 6-0 about 4 people w/ lati@s a day and post the logs here. Win a load of tournaments with their unfair advantage. Stay at the top of the ladder for a few months.

But wait, you won't do this or if you try you will fail. Want to know why? Because Lati@s aren't broken and frankly all the theorymon and "no counters" bullshit posts do is just clog up threads like these. Use evidence, use named examples, explain what the problem is in a deeper context. The metagame is balanced currently, if you lose are losing to Lati@s, it's probably because your team is horrible and full of supposed "counters". Use the questioned pokemon and see for yourself what their limitations and weakness are, because they are there trust me. Ulevo can't convince with words (no offense) as well as going out there and playing will show that Lati@s are not broken.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

See, the problem here is it does set precedence to ban Pokemon + Ability through principles of exclusion. Examples of Ability + Ability bans that would ban Pokemon + Ability: Sand Veil + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Snow Cloak + Snow Warning (Froslass, Glaceon), Rough Skin + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Pressure + Pressure (Too many to list), Levitate + No Guard (Machamp, Golurk). The point being people could try to ban certain abilities from being used together (say, common ones) in order to ban a specific Pokemon with a specific ability from using said ability (as seen in the Chomp case). These bans would seem arbitrary to outside viewers, and for all intents and purposes, they would be. It also makes it easier to argue that single abilities should be banned because there has already been a combination ban.

Also, I'd like to note I'm not arguing whether or not Drizzle + SwSw is broken. I'm arguing that banning combination of abilities sets a dangerous precedent for other possible bans that would most definitely be arbitrary. I'm also going to note that some of the examples used in possible Ability + Ability bans would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to argue, but still could be proposed using the flimsy excuse that there's already an ability + ability ban in place.

Sand Veil had a lot of nominations this round, but Philip didn't put it into voting exactly because of what you just said: Banning it would mean soft-banning a number of pokémon, and not many nominations even acknowledged it. As long as people understand the principle behind the Drizzle+SwSw ban, we can avoid the other "arbitrary" ability+ability bans, specially those which really only affect a single relevant pokémon (such as Sand Veil and Garchomp).

 

[Baldafor]

We already have pokemon+ability bans in place. Pokemon are not allowed to run the ability Moody (Inconsistent for those that refuse to learn the English names for things.) There was no reason to ban Blaziken entirely, it just happened to be easier and quicker.

In the future I expect to see Blaze Blaziken as a suspect. So, we do indeed have pokemon+ability bans, so why not ban Magic Guard? Reuniclus' other ability makes him far from broken.

 

[Bologo]

That really sucks about Blaziken getting banned. It confuses me as to why people didn't even both to nominate it for 2 rounds, but this round gave it a supermajority. It's just weird that it went from not even being voted on at all, to being so overwhelmingly powerful that it must be banned right away. I mean, Speed Boost Blaziken and Drought Ninetales have been released for a pretty long time now. I recognize that the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban made it a lot easier for him to sweep, since you have to be extremely careful when playing against him, but it's just weird.

I have a feeling that female Speed Boost Blaziken is going to be released someday though (maybe when Dream World opens up in NA, since I'm assuming they'll do the events again, with correct gender ratios since female DW Events are pass through the hack check on wifi, just not obtainable), so if Blaziken wasn't broken now, he'd sure as shit be broken when he gets access to Baton Pass + Speed Boost. Heh, if the opponent switches in a check, just Baton Pass your Speed boosts and whatever other boosts you have to something else and let them continue the sweep...Or better yet, Baton Pass Bulk Ups so priority can't even stop your sweep. Pass Work Ups + Speed to your awesome mixed sweeper. Or hell, a dual screens + Baton Pass Blaziken combo with Deoxys-S or something. Oh well, at least if female Speed Boost Blaziken gets released he'll have yet another niche in Ubers.

Maybe in the 3rd BW version he'll gain some checks, but I guess for now I can see why he's broken. He pulled a GSC -> ADV Wobbuffet by going from UU to Ubers in one generation.

And as for Pokemon + Ability bans, can people please consider that the game isn't just played by experts, but that there are, in fact, beginners in pokemon? Honestly, you guys aren't the only ones who play the game. You have to consider that when you start fucking with the rules by performing something like an ability removal surgery on a pokemon, you're making this game really unenjoyable for people who actually want to learn the game. It's also going to make our analyses look really stupid if a pokemon now has two separate tiers because a part of them is uber and a part is OU (and of course once UU starts people will want to start doing this so a pokemon doesn't become BL). I'm not talking about a pokemon having an OU and Ubers analysis, I'm talking about in the tiering section where it would technically show them as both Uber and OU. It'll be even worse for something like Blaziken if only Speed Boost Blaziken was banned, because then you'd have a pokemon who's both Uber and UU at the same time, which would be very confusing for new players.

In addition, you guys are making it really unenjoyable for people who want to play OU on Wifi if you try making rules like this (I'm not counting pokesav).

Ie. You got the perfect IVs for your pokemon, and the perfect nature too. But because the ability + pokemon combination is broken, and you happened to get that ability, now you can't even use that pokemon in OU anymore. Now back to the drawing board for MORE tedious egg hatching.

Also, good luck trying to actually enforce a pokemon + ability ban on Wifi. It was apparently hard enough getting people to not use Garchomp in OU. This would just be too much effort to actually enforce on Wifi.

Unless people want to start treating all Ability + Pokemon combinations as alternate formes like Giratina and Giratina-O (which will make it so we have like 1200 pokemon), I really don't think pokemon + ability bans are going to work.

I'm not saying abilities shouldn't ever be banned, just that they should be banned as an absolute last resort like Moody. Not just because we want to tweak the pokemon a little bit so it's now legal. This is an example of it absolutely not being a last resort.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

We already have pokemon+ability bans in place. Pokemon are not allowed to run the ability Moody (Inconsistent for those that refuse to learn the English names for things.) There was no reason to ban Blaziken entirely, it just happened to be easier and quicker.

In the future I expect to see Blaze Blaziken as a suspect. So, we do indeed have pokemon+ability bans, so why not ban Magic Guard? Reuniclus' other ability makes him far from broken.

the hell

Now you want to tell me the Moody ban is actually a collection of complex pokémon+ability bans? What's next, "Evasion Clause is a pokémon+move ban, let's ban Latios+Draco Meteor!!!!1"? No.

Maybe in the 3rd BW version he'll gain some checks, but I guess for now I can see why he's broken. He pulled a GSC -> ADV Wobbuffet by going from UU to Ubers in one generation.

He was GSC Wobbuffet on steroids, as he went from OU in one gen to an outclassed UU in another and then to outclassing its nemesis so much it got booted to Ubers now.

 

[IcyMan28]

SpD Tar is not a new check
SpD Scizor is not a new check
Jirachi is not a new check
Metagross is not a new check
Tornadus and Thunderus are not checks at all, they are OHKO'ed by Draco Meteor, and 2HKOed by any common move Latios carries, except maybe HP Fighting for Tyranitar. They cannot OHKO Latios either.
Starmie is not a check. See Genies, except Surf does not 2HKO Starmie.
Ferrothorn is a check, but dosent stop Latios coing back in later, and taking another 30~40% out of it. Or predicting it and using HP Fire, which it should carry.
Escavalier just forces it out, and even then, only on a DM. Surf will ruin it.

Tl;DR: Latios only gained two, shakey checks [Both are countered by HP Fire, which IMO, all Latios should be running, as it ruins 3 'checks' and hits Metagross and Jirachi hard too, ESPECIALLY in the Sun]

Gen 5 also gave Latios no counters, and removed Blissey as a Counter, due to Psyshock. It also removed Snorlax as a check. So, that's a net gain of +1 Check, and -1 Counter.

And there's other sets besides Specs too. Calm Mind Latios can take advantage of the switches caused by Specs Latios, for example, and can switch moves, while retaining the same power as Specs Latios [You CM on the switch it forces]. Or Life Orb Latios, who could carry Recover.

When did you ever see SpD Tar, SpD Jirachi, and SpD Scizor commonly run back in Gen 4? Very rarely, and most definitely not to the extent that they are now. For the purposes of this argument, they are "new" sets and checks.

Starmie can come into Surf or HP Fire with relative ease to threaten Latios. Also, HP Fire does not OHKO the genies even with SR, nor does the rare HP Fighting obviously. Meanwhile, Specs Hurricane will often OHKO with rocks, Thundurus can priority TWave, and Starmie's LO Ice Beam does upwards of 70%. Starmie is pretty good, though the genies are relatively shaky and I'll admit they are more revenge killers than anything else.

Why are you upset that Latios can switch out and hit Ferrothorn again later? That is the name of the game, and various pokemon can do this. Infernape can hit Tentacruel with Close Combat, switch out, and do it again, but does that make it broken? Heatran can Fire Blast your Specs Latios switch-in, switch out, and do it again, but that doesn't make it broken. You mention how it crushes steels with HP Fire in the sun but neglect to mention how they deal with Latios far more easily in the rain? Nope, no bias there.

For the nth time, the "but it can predict and use HP Fire" argument really needs to be thrown out the window, as it is exceedingly weak. I could just as easily have predicted your Latios switch into my Rotom and Thunder Waved, or known that you were going to bring Latios into Heatran's Fire Blast and used Dragon Pulse instead. So from now on I'm just going to stop replying to the prediction argument and only address the valid points in an argument.

Specs Latios isn't running all of Draco Meteor / Thunderbolt / Surf / HP Fire / Dragon Pulse / Psycho Shock / Trick at once. DM / Surf / HP Fire are the standard with the last slot for coverage - without PsyShock, Blissey will win, as is the case if you lack Trick. If you lack Dragon Pulse, you lack a STAB for late game cleaning and are forced to go to -2 to use your STAB attack. And if you use PsyShock as your STAB, you will have subpar coverage for that late game cleanup.

As for the other sets, they are not as threatening due to the fact that they take a turn to set up or lack power once they are set up.

Dragon Pulse / Surf / HP Fire / Calm Mind cannot nuke much of anything with the huge power difference between Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor.

Draco Meteor / Surf / HP Fire / Recover lacks the power of Specs or CM in exchange for some increased longevity, yet it still loses a consistent STAB attack and no longer has room for Trick or Psyshock.

Running HP fire is worth it to get by several checks like Jirachi (weakened) Scizor (non-CB) Nattorei & Excavalier. Running HP fire isn't really a big penalty. Gengar is nowhere near dominant in this metagame, so getting outsped by him is no big deal. Sure you auto-lose to opposing Lati@s but its worth it. Also speed ties are dumb.

HP Fire is worth it, yes, but you need to predict perfectly (assuming Specs) to even catch them with the move, and it doesn't help it get by ALL of its checks. Being able to take out a weakened check is nothing special, either, and if you run into a rain team HP Fire is essentially useless. Specs Surf will fail to 2HKO SpD Jirachi and Ferrothorn, the most commonly seen steels on those teams. SpD Metagross and Escavalier can survive 2 Specs Surfs outside of rain, so Latios needs to be careful around them a well.

EDIT: The release of the third game may see Blaziken return from Ubers if the current DW tier is any indication. It has several additional checks in the form of Techniloom, Chandelure, Keldeo, and most importantly Imposter Ditto. Hopefully any movepool additions will help check it just enough to bring it back.

 

[Ulevo]

You need switch into SOME moves at least in order to be considered a check. According to you anything that can take 1 hit from -2 Draco Meteor on the revenge kill is a check (which is damn well near everything) Example of a proper check: Azumarill could check Blaziken by switching into anything other than Hi jump kick.

I'm aware that it has to be able to come in on some, but not all, moves. But -2 Draco Meteor is much different than a full power Draco Meteor. At the moment of use, they may as well be different moves.

And while many things can switch in to a -2 Draco Meteor, not everything can threaten to KO Latios.

Latios deals (68.6% - 81.3%) with -2 Specs Draco Meteor against the genie twins, meaning they have a chance of being OHKOed with Stealth rock. (its damn near guaranteed if sand is in play) Specs surf is doing quite a bit of damage too (62.5% - 73.9%) so I would hardly say its "not doing much." These pokemon aren't checks.

Fair enough.

 

[Avira]

I've never had to deal with a well played Blaziken (Work Up Blaziken from a good player), so I don't have the necessary experience to criticize its ban. My team naturally checked it with Drizzle, Spiritomb, Intimidate, and Toxic Spikes, so I have found SD Blaziken extremely underwhelming whenever it was used against me. With that said, if it wasn't banned now, I think people would eventually have seen the power of the Work Up set, and it would have been quite unpleasant.

 

[alexwolf]

See, the problem here is it does set precedence to ban Pokemon + Ability through principles of exclusion. Examples of Ability + Ability bans that would ban Pokemon + Ability: Sand Veil + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Snow Cloak + Snow Warning (Froslass, Glaceon), Rough Skin + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Pressure + Pressure (Too many to list), Levitate + No Guard (Machamp, Golurk). The point being people could try to ban certain abilities from being used together (say, common ones) in order to ban a specific Pokemon with a specific ability from using said ability (as seen in the Chomp case). These bans would seem arbitrary to outside viewers, and for all intents and purposes, they would be. It also makes it easier to argue that single abilities should be banned because there has already been a combination ban.

Also, I'd like to note I'm not arguing whether or not Drizzle + SwSw is broken. I'm arguing that banning combination of abilities sets a dangerous precedent for other possible bans that would most definitely be arbitrary. I'm also going to note that some of the examples used in possible Ability + Ability bans would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to argue, but still could be proposed using the flimsy excuse that there's already an ability + ability ban in place.

the combination doesn't set any precedent...aldaron was clear.weather inducing abilities are more complex than normal ones and are treated as such!
the whole smogon community decided that such a multi-sided ability with so many effects to the metagame,that can benefit the whole team not just one poke,should be an exception...
so if you find any weather based ability that is broken in combination with its according weather you can nominate it and see what happens...
that's the only precedent that it sets...
but because 'till now noone has ever found or mentioned any ability other than sw that is broken in its according weather everything is fine and we have almost found the ideal solution to the problem with the less bans possible...and with the term 'less bans' i mean bans on ou viable pokes not on shit like luvdisc...
the only other solution to the problem would be the individual baning of the broken trio(kingdra,ludicolo,kabutops)which would be the best solution in my opinion but aldaron's proposal is also fine!
banning ability+ability combo is still against smogon's policy i think...you could theoretically nominate ability+ability combo in the future only if one of the 2 abilities was a weather inducing one and the other was 1 that benefits from such an ability...so your exaples of banning levitate+no guard or pressure+pressure are invalid 'cause they don't share the same reasoning as aldaron's proposal..
sry for babbling so much....

We already have pokemon+ability bans in place. Pokemon are not allowed to run the ability Moody (Inconsistent for those that refuse to learn the English names for things.) There was no reason to ban Blaziken entirely, it just happened to be easier and quicker.

In the future I expect to see Blaze Blaziken as a suspect. So, we do indeed have pokemon+ability bans, so why not ban Magic Guard? Reuniclus' other ability makes him far from broken.

we don't have any pokemon+ability bans.moody is banned on everything that gets it so it is an ability ban.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I never thought a starter Pokemon would make it to the land of Ubers. Just...wow. Blaziken. Wow.

And while we're speaking in huge blocks of text here, I just want to say how amazing it is that this Suspect test basically transitioned from one threat to another. First, Latios, who was moderated by several Specially Defensive threats. Then Shell Smash Gorebyss, which was quickly passed off due to other big fish. Drizzle was then considered, but it's easily manageable. And Blaziken was mentioned here and there. Some said it was hard to face, some didn't. I have no idea how we passed off to this conclusion.

And, while I didn't want Blaziken to be banned, I sure don't mind that he IS banned. I'm just so...confused.

 

[smashlloyd20]

That's the point of a developing meta. New threats rise, ways are found to check them, and new threats appear. Blaziken only became popular (as in, ban-worthy) towards the end of the testing period.

 

[Thorhammer]

Sand Veil had a lot of nominations this round, but Philip didn't put it into voting exactly because of what you just said: Banning it would mean soft-banning a number of pokémon, and not many nominations even acknowledged it. As long as people understand the principle behind the Drizzle+SwSw ban, we can avoid the other "arbitrary" ability+ability bans, specially those which really only affect a single relevant pokémon (such as Sand Veil and Garchomp).

The problem here is that he didn't even address the alternative method of taking care of the Sand Veil issue without softbanning anything. Hopefully it'll get more nominations next round.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

We already have pokemon+ability bans in place. Pokemon are not allowed to run the ability Moody (Inconsistent for those that refuse to learn the English names for things.) There was no reason to ban Blaziken entirely, it just happened to be easier and quicker.

In the future I expect to see Blaze Blaziken as a suspect. So, we do indeed have pokemon+ability bans, so why not ban Magic Guard? Reuniclus' other ability makes him far from broken.

It's a different case.

The ability Moody is just completely banned. NO pokemon can run Moody at all. That's not a complex ban.

We didn't ban the ability Speed Boost; other Speed Boosters like Ninjask are still perfectly legal. So you'd have to specifically ban the combination of Blaziken and Speed Boost without banning one or the other, and in my opinion, that opens a can of worms.

If we do that, then we might as well also say "Reuniclus with Magic Guard is banned, but not with Dustproof" and "Garchomp with Sand Veil is banned but otherwise he's fine". And then that could lead to movepools: "Latios can't use Draco Meteor" or "Whimsicott can't use Substitute with Leech Seed in the same set". Not that any of those above guys are broken (especially Whimsicott), just giving examples.

I think making specific ability + pokemon bans leads to too much of a slippery slope and no one wants to have to consult a humongous list of stuff to see what's banned and what's not when they want to construct a team.

 

[CountBleck]

I'm going to honestly say I don't like that Blaze Blaziken is "collateral damage"

Regardless of what precedent this will set the addition of new powerful abilities should be considered separately of old abilities. Now I understand people think this might lead to banning moves on pokemon and I agree that move combos should never be banned. If say Areodactyl magically got brave bird and head smash there is a very good chance he might be broken and he would then have to be banned in his entirety.

Honestly let's pretend that for whatever reason DW scyther was released and DW scizor's abilty was wonder guard. Despite the fact that fire would still maul it,that ability ontop of scizor's already impressive power would ensure uber. Can you really tell me honestly that smogon would be willing to give up all forms of (non-broken scizor) if this happened?

 

[charizard24]

I'm going to honestly say I don't like that Blaze Blaziken is "collateral damage"

Regardless of what precedent this will set the addition of new powerful abilities should be considered separately of old abilities. Now I understand people think this might lead to banning moves on pokemon and I agree that move combos should never be banned. If say Areodactly magically got brave bird and head smash there is a very good chance he might be broken and he would then have to be banned in his entirety.

Honestly let's pretend that for whatever reason DW scyther was released and DW scizor's abilty was wonder guard. Despite the fact that fire would still maul it,that ability ontop of scizor's already impressive power would ensure uber. Can you really tell me honestly that smogon would be willing to give up all forms of (non-broken scizor) if this happened?

If Scizor did get Wonder guard then YES, so be it. Scizor would be voted to Ubers with a vengence. Regardless of its former tasks in the OU metagame. Whatever roles it filled could be occupied by another mon now. Or even if it never get's filled it doesnt matter. As was mentioned a few posts back, it will be very confusing to have a pokemon in Both OU AND Ubers at the same time. It would basically mean that it's a different pokemon all together. We could just ban Spd boost + blaziken but what would that do for us?

Just cause more confusion and set a slipery slope of bans for sooo many unnecessary things....

Oh trust me ppl will definitely start nominating them if one is allowed... so we cant do that.

Aldaron's proposal was special as it affected a lot of other pokemon not just one and it represented a playstyle in general.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Blaze Blaziken IS collateral damage. ALL pokemon who are banned because of one aspect is considered "collateral damage." Thats how its been since the beginning, and that is how it will continue to be.

Starmie with Natural Cure is banned? So is a Starmie with illuminate.
Machamp with No Guard is banned? So is Machamp with Guts.
Latios with Draco Meteor is banned? So is Latios with EVERY OTHER ATTACK.
Darkrai with Dark void banned? So is Darkrai with EVERY OTHER ATTACK.

That's just how it is, that's just how it will be. I don't want to play a meta game where I go to look at a smogon guide and read "Oh you can USE Lugia in OU but only with out Roost or Calm Mind or Reflect, and if you REALLY want to use him in UU, you can but you cant run Reflect and Light Screen." Or even a, "You can use a Slowbro in UU but only with out Regenerate."


And for all the people bringing up swift swim + Drizzle being a reasoning to ban Speed Boost on Blaziken... It was made VERY clear in Alderons proposal that the "complex ban" was a special case in which it affected a good 30+ worth of pokemon. This clause was made in an attempt to save all 30+ pokemon and prevent a cascade of bans that would result if we did not go that route. Losing Drizzle would cause more bans from sand and sun, OR banning 6+ swift swimmers. Its a weather, and it affected an entire play style, and it added major diversity to the meta game.

Speed boost blaziken is ONE pokemon who proved to be broken.

 

[alphatron]

At this point, nominating drought, reuniclus, and excadrill should be a bannable offense.

As much as people say that Latias does calm mind better, I'm not exactly sure what the reasoning for this is. As far as calm mind goes, latios isn't outclassed just because his sister has 10 more base defense.

 

[CountBleck]

Fair enough... I don't like collateral damage but I can see the problems it could cause if we slid down that slope.

Ah well UU will have to use Emboar I guess

 

[PK Gaming]

EDIT: The release of the third game may see Blaziken return from Ubers if the current DW tier is any indication. It has several additional checks in the form of Techniloom, Chandelure, Keldeo, and most importantly Imposter Ditto. Hopefully any movepool additions will help check it just enough to bring it back.

Techniloom needs some prior damage in order to check him. Why would his inclusion in the metagame change anything? Especially when we have better Blaziken checks? (azumarill) Chandelure is not a check. Any half decent player won't HJK when they see it and Stone edge can easily OHKO. Keldeo is also cleanly OHKOed by HJK...

Imposter Ditto can't check protect Blaziken. This isn't Star Wars lol. Blaziken will most likely stay banned for the entirety of gen V.

 

[Thorhammer]

If Scizor did get Wonder guard then YES, so be it. Scizor would be voted to Ubers with a vengence. Regardless of its former tasks in the OU metagame. Whatever roles it filled could be occupied by another mon now. Or even if it never get's filled it doesnt matter. As was mentioned a few posts back, it will be very confusing to have a pokemon in Both OU AND Ubers at the same time. It would basically mean that it's a different pokemon all together. We could just ban Spd boost + blaziken but what would that do for us?

Just cause more confusion and set a slipery slope of bans for sooo many unnecessary things....

Oh trust me ppl will definitely start nominating them if one is allowed... so we cant do that.

Aldaron's proposal was special as it affected a lot of other pokemon not just one and it represented a playstyle in general.

I'm not even sure Scizor would be broken with Wonder Guard. It would have to give up Technician, and everyone already uses Fire moves against it primarily.

That said, there's a huge difference in complexity between complex bans involving abilities and complex bans involving moves. The former is simple enough to always stay within reasonable bounds; the latter is not. I think we know enough to make a distinction between the two and make complex bans involving abilities without making complex bans involving moves. However, it's a moot point, because the specific type of complex ability ban regarding banning a specific ability on a specific Pokemon was shot down in PR a couple of months ago. While I hope the decision will eventually be reconsidered, I'm not going to start pressing for that at this stage.

However, a playstyle ban is not something we should be dealing with. Playstyles are not something we ban, and for good reason. Swift Swim + Drizzle isn't a broken combination; it's a combination that creates certain broken individual Pokemon. The Pokemon should be dealt with, not the combination that applies to many other Pokemon without being broken.

Techniloom needs some prior damage in order to check him. Why would his inclusion in the metagame change anything? Especially when we have better Blaziken checks? (azumarill) Chandelure is not a check. Any half decent player won't HJK when they see it and Stone edge can easily OHKO. Keldeo is also cleanly OHKOed by HJK...

Imposter Ditto can't check protect Blaziken. This isn't Star Wars lol. Blaziken will most likely stay banned for the entirety of gen V.

Techniloom is another check in addition to Blaziken's existing ones. It has a few, and one more would only make it even more reasonable.

Blaziken using Protect wouldn't change a thing against Imposter Ditto. Imposter copies Speed boost, so Ditto's Speed would increase as well. Besides, Scarf +1 Blaziken outspeeds +2 Blaziken, so it's a moot point.

 

[IcyMan28]

Techniloom needs some prior damage in order to check him. Why would his inclusion in the metagame change anything? Especially when we have better Blaziken checks? (azumarill) Chandelure is not a check. Any half decent player won't HJK when they see it and Stone edge can easily OHKO. Keldeo is also cleanly OHKOed by HJK...

Imposter Ditto can't check protect Blaziken. This isn't Star Wars lol. Blaziken will most likely stay banned for the entirety of gen V.

Prior damage as in switching into an attack + Stealth Rock.

ScarfChandelure forces a speed tie and will win against Protect Blaziken outside of Stone Edge, and while Protect Blaziken beats Ditto it loses without it. ScarfKeldeo, which is really useful in rain, will outspeed Blaziken at +2.

 

[Thorhammer]

Prior damage as in switching into an attack + Stealth Rock.

ScarfChandelure forces a speed tie and will win against Protect Blaziken outside of Stone Edge, and while Protect Blaziken beats Ditto it loses without it. ScarfKeldeo, which is really useful in rain, will outspeed Blaziken at +2.

Scarf Keldeo outspeeds Adamant +2 Blaziken by one point, but it fails to match Jolly Blaziken. But then, if it forces Blaziken to start running Jolly, that would certainly lessen its threatening attack power a bit.

It's worth noting that if Blaziken doesn't run Jolly, its only way to deal with an immediate Scarf Chandelure switch in is Protect + Stone Edge, which forces it to either give up Swords Dance or one of its STABs. Either way, it's quite a bit less threatening.

So whatever happens, I think we'll be seeing quite a bit more Jolly Blaziken once those two become available, which presumably takes away a few key KOs.

 

[PK Gaming]

Techniloom is another check in addition to Blaziken's existing ones. It has a few, and one more would only make it even more reasonable.

He's still not enough to bring Blaziken down from ubers. You're deluding yourself if you seriously think that.

Blaziken using Protect wouldn't change a thing against Imposter Ditto. Imposter copies Speed boost, so Ditto's Speed would increase as well. Besides, Scarf +1 Blaziken outspeeds +2 Blaziken, so it's a moot point.

It changes quite a bit actually. Imposter Ditto is forced into using a NVE move (that comes nowhere close to OHKOing) and it risks getting owned by HJK, so its catch 22.

ScarfChandelure forces a speed tie and will win against Protect Blaziken outside of Stone Edge, and while Protect Blaziken beats Ditto it loses without it. ScarfKeldeo, which is really useful in rain, will outspeed Blaziken at +2.

ScarfChandelure can't even OHKO Blaziken, even if it uses HP ground. Like I mentioned before, Blaziken can carry Shadow Claw, Stone Edge. What makes Scarfkeldeo any special? I could just easily use Doryuuzu, Scarf garchomp or scarf "anything" that can outspeed Blaziken +2.

My point is, we already have several pokemon who can check Blaziken even BETTER than those 3 pokemon you mentioned, so their inclusion wouldn't change a damn thing.

 

[Thorhammer]

He's still not enough to bring Blaziken down from ubers. You're deluding yourself if you seriously think that.

It changes quite a bit actually. Imposter Ditto is forced into using a NVE move (that comes nowhere close to OHKOing) and it risks getting owned by HJK, so its catch 22.

Blaziken already has more than enough checks to make its uber status questionable. More checks just make its status more questionable, and eventually one can push it over the edge back into OU. Techniloom may well be that one.

If Protect forces Ditto to miss with HJK, it won't OHKO Ditto. So it won't make Ditto any less able to stop Blaziken.