np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Ulevo]

I understand the metagame quite well and I know that new movesets and things like that are supposed to be a given. However, we cannot agree because we have different views on competitive value. While it is true that this is the way the metagame is supposed to be if the set your using is uncompetitive in every way except for taking on a top threat that is bad for the metagame. Take what you ignored in my post. Golduck can combat sun with it's Cloud Nine and water typing however, what else is it good for besides that in ou. Nothing. There are plenty of other Water Types that can be abused than Golduck yet people still use it for that single aspect. There's something very wrong with that.

Concurrently, Magneton in GSC was only ever used to counter Skarmory, and the subsequent Blissey Skarmory combo. Golduck isn't useless, and neither is Magneton (or Magnezone). They both can fit the team well. But they're only used admittedly for those specific attributes; Cloud Nine and Magnet Pull.

Skarmory or Blissey weren't banned on the premise that because it was so dominate, it was invoking reactive actions from players like having to resort to, as you put it, "unviable" alternatives like Magneton. People accepted Skarmory and Blissey for what they were, they accepted the methods they had to deal with them, and the played the game.

Whether or not the Pokemon in question has an alternative use is irrelevant.

On the topic of the weather's dominating the metagame being "perfectly fine" I don't think anyone could agree with you. Another way to overcentralize is to water the metagame down to specific pokemon. As you so clearly stated the weathers do just that. Every other team you see is some kind of weather team and yes it does make it very difficult to non-weather teams to flourish. Also sand never really dominated gen 4. Granted it was a very viable however, it never really took the metagame by storm to the point where you see them every other battle. That's the most major reason people were perfectly fine with them. Now in gen 5 we have 4 weathers completely dominating the metagame. You see some kind of weather every other battle and it just doesn't make things fun at all. It's overcentralizing and it needs to be tested.

In RBY, the generation was centered around what, 8-10 Pokemon? Outside of Mew and Mewtwo, which were banned, there were I believe 81 fully evolved Pokemon total. The game was inherently "overcentralized". Players didn't say "Oh, this sucks. I want to use Dodrio. Lets ban Zapdos and Starmie and Gengar because they're obviously too good and hogging all the action." They dealt with it because it was competitively understood that that's just how the game is.

Fast forward now to Gen V, we now have a similar set of circumstances. While we have plenty of viable, powerful, OU Pokemon to choose from regardless of what weather condition we're in, we do have four dominate playstyles that focus around the four available weathers; some more dominate than others.

But rather than deal with the problem, people suggest we ban to fix the problem?

I'd also like to add that Mew and Mewtwo were only banned because they didn't have a choice. Psychics were really strong as it was, and Mew and Mewtwo especially were the cream of the crop. You couldn't touch a player using either unless you ran one yourself.

Two Pokemon compared to four playstyles, with five Pokemon to choose from to invoke them, along with a great variety of Pokemon to use within the playstyles, and moves/abilities to counteract them (Cloud Nine, Rain Dance, et cetera). You get the picture.

I actually do agree with you about peoples views on bans. Not everybody wants something gone. It could be from a lack of experience or a love of the pokemon (I did alot of research on Reuniclus to help find checks and counters.) and so when things get banned someone's gonna get pissed and wonder why. It's a hassle but bans need to be done. Bans happen specifically to make the metagame more accessible and fun. If bans didn't happen we'd still be using inconsistent and drizzle would be even more of a pain. Latias would still be running the metagame of gen 4 and nothing would really be fun anymore which is what the game is supposed to be. Fun, a game, enjoyment. If we just "suck it up" and let these things run the metagame not many would be playing the game or at least not with that insane ban list.

I don't agree with that particular philosophy.

When you start using "fun" as the moral ground for decision making in a competitive community for anything, the logic behind the decision making deteriorates because everyone has a different interpretation of that word.

You can assume no one would play, but I disagree. This philosophy only just changed halfway through Gen IV. If what you said is true, we wouldn't have had a player base all this time.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Concurrently, Magneton in GSC was only ever used to counter Skarmory, and the subsequent Blissey Skarmory combo. Golduck isn't useless, and neither is Magneton (or Magnezone). They both can fit the team well. But they're only used admittedly for those specific attributes; Cloud Nine and Magnet Pull.

Magneton was OU in RSE, not in GSC, I believe.

I agree with most of what you said though. To be honest, if we were playing the GSC's OU metagame with the mindset of today's community, I'm sure something like Snorlax would've been banned. I joined Smogon forums half a decade ago now, and everybody's attitudes was so different back then...

Although, to be fair, we had stupid things back then too. Like NFEs were placed in the same tier as their evolution, unless they were "significantly different". That was definitely the most stupid thing back then. And also how the tier lists were simply just the popular members and their friends saying "Oh, I think X should move up to OU now", "Let's ban Y from UU, it's too strong". At least its based off statistics now, so everybody contributes (unless they decide to use weighted statistics, in which case the tier lists will only be relevent for the "good" players, and won't reflect what newer players will be seeing in their battles).

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Well, if you can't even run a non-weather team unless you have an anti-weather team, then you can't deny that weather is overcentralizing.

 

[Nanoswine]

Overcentralization is a pretty crappy argument to begin with, for so many reasons that have already been said.

The fact that you can't beat weather teams unless you run weather of your own or an anti-weather team (which is absolutely not true in the first place), just means that your team isn't prepared for the metagame. If you aren't prepared for any common Pokemon or strategy, of course you aren't going to be successful with that team.

 

[Thorhammer]

Well, if you can't even run a non-weather team unless you have an anti-weather team, then you can't deny that weather is overcentralizing.

I can deny it, easily. The criteria for overcentralizaiton requires the metagame to consist of basically one viable strategy, with variations being almost identical. The current metagame isn't anywhere close to that. As I said, there's still a huge amount of variety that can be used with weather-based teams and anti-weather teams.

 

[Mishra]

Overcentralization is a pretty crappy argument to begin with, for so many reasons that have already been said.

The fact that you can't beat weather teams unless you run weather of your own or an anti-weather team (which is absolutely not true in the first place), just means that your team isn't prepared for the metagame. If you aren't prepared for any common Pokemon or strategy, of course you aren't going to be successful with that team.

I don't think anyone is denying you can't. Any team can theoretically beat any team. What I think we are trying to say is that it is incredibly tough to beat a weather that can't turn off. It is much easier to use your own weather, to stop their sweepers. I have a problem that weather determines the victor.

I can deny it, easily. The criteria for overcentralizaiton requires the metagame to consist of basically one viable strategy, with variations being almost identical. The current metagame isn't anywhere close to that. As I said, there's still a huge amount of variety that can be used with weather-based teams and anti-weather teams.

Your definition. I would argue that teams frantically struggle to control the weather is over centralization as controlling the weather is the exact same strategy.

 

[Woodchuck]

I deny that you can't run a non-weather team without being pointedly anti-weather. I'm running full stall right now -- in fact, it's basically a variation on obi's DP stall team -- and I'm not even running hail on Tentacruel.

 

[Thorhammer]

Your definition. I would argue that teams frantically struggle to control the weather is over centralization as controlling the weather is the exact same strategy.

It's the only logical definition. If you wish to make a case for a different definition, please do so.

As for what you've said here, that's one similarity to how the teams play in battle, but there's always much more to them than that. Surely I don't have to explain how a rain and sun team would play differently, let alone any weather team and an anti-weather team? Controlling the weather isn't any different from controlling entry hazards in previous generations - it's one aspect of strategy many teams give some focus to, but it doesn't make them all the same team.

 

[SJCrew]

Controlling hazards got even more important now that 5th gen gave us Ferrothorn. I find it next to impossible not to carry a spinner on my teams. I would use Espeon, but Espeon just sucks at everything.

 

[Mishra]

Controlling hazards got even more important now that 5th gen gave us Ferrothorn. I find it next to impossible not to carry a spinner on my teams. I would use Espeon, but Espeon just sucks at everything.

I hear spec espeon hits pretty hard. If your going offense, hazards prob don't bother you. The genies can control them pretty well.

It's the only logical definition. If you wish to make a case for a different definition, please do so.{/quote]
I would argue that over-centralization is where a single strategy is so strong, that every team you created must be able to deal with it, or answer it yourself.

As for what you've said here, that's one similarity to how the teams play in battle, but there's always much more to them than that. Surely I don't have to explain how a rain and sun team would play differently, let alone any weather team and an anti-weather team? Controlling the weather isn't any different from controlling entry hazards in previous generations - it's one aspect of strategy many teams give some focus to, but it doesn't make them all the same team.

What we disagree is that you view each weather individually, while I see it as a whole. I think the concept of almost having to run one of three pokes on your team is huge, so huge that most teams will only have two slots to be "diverse".

Lets look at sand. Those teams will tend to exsist of Ttar, +2 of 3 (and sometimes, all3) of Excadril, landlos, and Garchomp). Skarmory/Ferrathorn for hazards and one of the most common last pokes is Scizor and sometimes gliscor. That leaves 1-2 spots left. Of those spots, at least one is 90% of the time, going to be some bulky water (the most common 3 I see are Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Rotom(w)). I finally got back over the 1300 mark, and these are all I see from sand, and I don't blame them.

When people deviate from this, I actually have an easier time, because their deviation is most likely inferior.

The difference between weather and hazards though, is that there are a LARGE number of pokes that can set up hazzards ( i don't even think my team needs them). Weather forces you into 3.

I deny that you can't run a non-weather team without being pointedly anti-weather. I'm running full stall right now -- in fact, it's basically a variation on obi's DP stall team -- and I'm not even running hail on Tentacruel.

Honestly, good for you. I have yet to see a decent stall team in the upper levels, but if your having success I applaud you, mainly for the reason that stall seems to have a lot of obstacles put in its path *cough* Reuc *cough*.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Controlling hazards got even more important now that 5th gen gave us Ferrothorn. I find it next to impossible not to carry a spinner on my teams. I would use Espeon, but Espeon just sucks at everything.

How about Xatu?

Before I get laughed out of the forum, I will say he's a pretty handy Dual Screener and can Wish Support beyond just coming in to troll with Magic Bounce.

 

[AlphaSpade]

167 HP Wishes aren't exactly that helpful.

Also, weather is here to stay. Deal with it -_-.

 

[Forsety]

Xatu with wish sucks, but Xatu with screens is pretty amazing and can stall alot of things along with generally having better bulk and recovery than Espeon. Only problem with Magic Bouncers is they all share the exact same weakness, T-tar. Regardless I'd still take Xatu over Espeon because hes more likely to be coming in multiple times.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

I don't want to say Xatu with Wish flat out sucks, mainly because I know Xatu can force some switches with just coming in with Magic Bounce, so its just one extra way to exploit the turn that they must flee. I mean, 167 HP is pretty shitty for a heal, but its still a heal thats almost 1/3rd of most pokemon and can get some pokemon back into the game fairly well.


I mainly really want Xatu to have Trick/Switcheroo, because I want to run a Choice Scarf + Magic Bouncer set running Wish/U-turn/Switcheroo/Xen Headbutt (or some other sort of filler). But, he doesn't learn trick/switcheroo this generation (that I know of yet), and that disappoints me.


Either way, Im up in the air on which of the 2 I would use (between Espeon and Xatu). I like Xatu more, and love his ground immunity, but Espeon seems to pack more of a punch. I think I would run Specs on Espy if I ever decided to use it over the bird.

 

[Blackdragonking]

167 HP Wishes aren't exactly that helpful.

Also, weather is here to stay. Deal with it -_-.

I'd assume the vast majority of teams running either Magic Bouncer are going to be UU, simply because nobody's going to use either of them since Tyranitar is ****ing everywhere and Choiced pursuits are a common threat in OU. 167 HP isn't a ton, but it can help a pokemon that needs some health back, especially one of the more frail types that don't have a ton of HP to spare.

Also, I don't like the "shut up and stop complaining" response; I'm fine with being told why something shouldn't be changed if it makes sense, but really "Weather is here to stay. Deal with it -_-." is about one or two steps away from every complaint people have about the metagame to be answered with "suck less".

 

[Acritter]

167 HP Wishes aren't exactly that helpful.

Also, weather is here to stay. Deal with it -_-.

"Skymin is here to stay. Deal with it -_-."

I don't even WANT weather to get banned, but damn, that's a horrible argument.

Wouldn't a better way to deal with Ferrothorn setting up hazards be to switch in something that forces it out or that can set up on it, like Chestorest Volcarona (resists Gyro Ball and Power Whip, can Rest away paralysis, Leech Seed does piddling damage)?

 

[Ulevo]

You're not being told to "deal with it" because its an argumentative statement. You're being told to "deal with it" because you have nothing convincing to suggest that you shouldn't, based on what we've said.

Also, I use Chesto Berry + Rest Volcarona. Yes, it can switch in to Ferrothorn easily, and it only dislikes Leech Seed, but it doesn't solve the hazard dilemma unless you happen to sweep with Volcarona that turn. Ferrothorn still got the hazards up, and it'll get more up every time it switches in.

From what I've experienced, you either need to A) build a team that resists or is immune to hazards for the majority of your team, B) include a Rapid Spin users, or C) build a team that can keep pressure on and maintain an offensive advantage to take advantage of the turns that hazards are being set up.

I dislike most of the Pokemon that carry Rapid Spin, so I go for option A and C. Right now, C is my preferable choice.

 

[Thorhammer]

I would argue that over-centralization is where a single strategy is so strong, that every team you created must be able to deal with it, or answer it yourself.


What we disagree is that you view each weather individually, while I see it as a whole. I think the concept of almost having to run one of three pokes on your team is huge, so huge that most teams will only have two slots to be "diverse".

Lets look at sand. Those teams will tend to exsist of Ttar, +2 of 3 (and sometimes, all3) of Excadril, landlos, and Garchomp). Skarmory/Ferrathorn for hazards and one of the most common last pokes is Scizor and sometimes gliscor. That leaves 1-2 spots left. Of those spots, at least one is 90% of the time, going to be some bulky water (the most common 3 I see are Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Rotom(w)). I finally got back over the 1300 mark, and these are all I see from sand, and I don't blame them.

When people deviate from this, I actually have an easier time, because their deviation is most likely inferior.

The difference between weather and hazards though, is that there are a LARGE number of pokes that can set up hazzards ( i don't even think my team needs them). Weather forces you into 3..

Every good, popular strategy is something that every team needs to be able to deal with some way or another. Weather is no different.

You're referring to three specific playstyles: Standard sun offense, standard rain offense, and standard sand offense. Those are not the only playstyles that involve weather. Rain stall and sand stall play completely differently from those, as do Rain Dance teams. And certainly, any team not based around weather will play completely differently. Teams don't need to be based around weather to succeed in the current metagame; they just need some way of controlling the weather so that it will not benefit the opponent. Abomasnow or a Hail user, or even a user of a different type of weather, are all viable methods of doing so. You say entry hazards can be used by a large variety of Pokemon, but that doesn't even come close to the number of Pokemon that can use some weather move.

 

[Ulevo]

What I happen to find a little silly is that people will gawk at the idea of using Hail, Sunny Day, Rain Dance or Sandstorm on one of their team members moveslots, say its a waste of a slot, meanwhile we have people willing to dedicate a slot to using Rapid Spin.

To put that in to perspective, Rapid Spin prevents residual damage on most teams from occurring during switches from anywhere between 6.25% to 25%, reasonably speaking. Most of the time it will be between 6.25% and 18%, given how common Steel types are, and how fast paced the game is, usually only allowing two layers of Spikes.

Meanwhile, we have Drought, which gives a 50% boost to Fire attacks, double speed on Clorophyl Pokemon, and Water resistance; Drizzle, which gives 50% boost to Water Attacks, 100% accuracy on Thunder and Gale, extra HP recovery on Pokemon with Rain Dish and Dry Skin, Hydration, resistance to Fire, and many other benefits; and Sand, which gives double speed to Excadrill, increased power on Landorus, residual damage of at least 6% per turn on everything not Steel, Rock, or Ground, and a 50% boost in Special Defense to most notably Tyranitar. I'd also like to note that anything with Wonder Guard also abuses this environment.

I'm sorry, but you can't call using a weather changing move unjustified. It's a perfectly legitimate and effective strategy that is well worth the move slot, looking at these circumstances.

 

[Hallow]

An example of how the prevalence of weather could THEORETICALLY be used for the weather-weary trainer's own ends finds itself in Charizard. You could - And let me stress again that this is theoretical - Steal the opponent's weather with a Solar Power Charizard and use it to crack on the opposing team, which is (as a Sun Team) like to consist mainly of Grass and Fire Types: Charizard laughs at Venusaur (and any other SunGrasses) as well as most Fire Types and can lay the smackdown on the selfsame with a specially leaned Mix Set.

Now of course, a team revolving around SPZard as its offensive core that plans to abuse the opponent's Drought will fail miserably against any other team, but hypothetically, a team able to check Sun and Rain Offence in this manner should be reasonably successful, especially if the team is built in such a way that it doesn't necessarily NEED the weather and can therefore also function against weather-countering Teams.

The same thing can also be done for Sandstorm (and, to a lesser extent, Hail), but it requires great skill on the player's part and will most likely incur a few losses due to dependence on opposing weather and double specialization, so I reckon this strategy will remain purely theoretical.

 

[Benlisted]

basically - people should use weather moves more to prepare for the threats in the current meta

Just to elaborate on what Ulevo said and i think counter what someone said a little while back, you really shouldn't think of a weather move as a wasted slot at all. Weather gives reasonably good bonuses to your own team if you pick one which synergises with it well. As examples, a bulky Heatran with Sunny Day is actually good utility if you want your Tran to be able to take on Latis with Surf better (as well as boost its STAB). Tentacruel with Hail helps with residual damage if on a stallish team. Sunny Day with Darmanitan may net some OHKOs he didn't before with the weather on his side.

There may be better options to use much of the time with these moves - but Rapid Spin's comparison holds here, and in fact RS is more useless against a team without hazards than a weather move is against a team without weather. Similarly, in order to effectively RS you have to eliminate its counters on the opponent's team - spinblockers and/or the hazard setters themselves, whereas a weather move requires you to eliminate the opposing inducer instead (if the inducer is Toed or Tales a sac is reasonably likely against a non-weather -since in themselves they are not amazing pokemon - at least the first time you face someone).

Yes, weather can easily be reset with a switchin, but you utterly steal the opponent's momentum with a weather move even if they know you have it, and you can easily make conditions not optimal for the inducer to come back in. Or even better, simply use the weather move as you predict they come in with the inducer, immediately cancelling their weather and forcing them to switch at least twice before they can get the weather back on their side. As is fairly obvious, you can take advantage of this as you can any strategy.

Weather moves need to be considered as options by teams not using weather and having trouble with it.

EDIT: As an afterthought, I'd lump Tailwind in with the option of using other weather moves to beat weather teams. There's a warstory which showcases TW Scizor well, and essentially since Sun and SS teams will try and setup a game-ending sweep with a few frail and with mediocre speed pokemon, a Tailwind will open them up to a counter-sweep for 3 turns - which may be enough to seriously cripple the sweepers the weather team was trying to preserve.

 

[Acritter]

What I happen to find a little silly is that people will gawk at the idea of using Hail, Sunny Day, Rain Dance or Sandstorm on one of their team members moveslots, say its a waste of a slot, meanwhile we have people willing to dedicate a slot to using Rapid Spin.

To put that in to perspective, Rapid Spin prevents residual damage on most teams from occurring during switches from anywhere between 6.25% to 25%, reasonably speaking. Most of the time it will be between 6.25% and 18%, given how common Steel types are, and how fast paced the game is, usually only allowing two layers of Spikes.

Meanwhile, we have Drought, which gives a 50% boost to Fire attacks, double speed on Clorophyl Pokemon, and Water resistance; Drizzle, which gives 50% boost to Water Attacks, 100% accuracy on Thunder and Gale, extra HP recovery on Pokemon with Rain Dish and Dry Skin, Hydration, resistance to Fire, and many other benefits; and Sand, which gives double speed to Excadrill, increased power on Landorus, residual damage of at least 6% per turn on everything not Steel, Rock, or Ground, and a 50% boost in Special Defense to most notably Tyranitar. I'd also like to note that anything with Wonder Guard also abuses this environment.

I'm sorry, but you can't call using a weather changing move unjustified. It's a perfectly legitimate and effective strategy that is well worth the move slot, looking at these circumstances.

Using weather moves is viable, but not comparable to Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is often a trade of several turns (multiple layers of Spikes/SR) for one. That is a huge switch in momentum. A weather move trades one turn for what is often no turns: switching in a weathersetter that can sometimes even force the opponent to switch. In many situations, this can actually become a loss in momentum for the user.

If anyone wants a little tip, Wobbuffet is actually really great at shutting down a lot of enemy weather. Ninetales gets itself OHKOd or locked into NP, non-Toxic Politoed dies easily, Hippo finds itself locked into SR or Slack Off, and less attack-oriented Tyranitars fail to OHKO with Crunch. It takes some prediction and a little luck, but Wobbo is good enough in other circumstances as well that I'd highly recommend it as a countermeasure. Worst-case scenario, you can always Tickle trap the enemy.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

If anyone wants a little tip, Wobbuffet is actually really great at shutting down a lot of enemy weather. Ninetales gets itself OHKOd or locked into NP, non-Toxic Politoed dies easily

Hmm, I don't get it. Ninetales uses Toxic too.

 

[Woodchuck]

I'd like to say that banning the weathers is not a good idea, seeing as Aldaron's proposal was pretty much to prevent banning them. What I think would be better is just taking out the most troublesome sweepers. The pokemon that I find is most difficult to deal with or play around without having a very specific counter is Thundurus. Once it gets up a Nasty Plot, unless you carry Swampert, Lanturn, or Quagsire, something's going to die, especially in drizzle with Thunder.
Really saying we want to ban weather entirely wouldn't really be in the spirit of the metagame. Normally I wouldn't say "deal with it" but it seems weather has really ingrained itself as part of the metagame and it just wouldn't be right to take it out.

Also tip for stallers, Spiritomb laughs at Reuniclus and can take it out with Pursuit.

 

[alphatron]

As an adevocate of Wobbs, he is only mildly useful for getting rid of weather setters. He deals with specs/scarf toed pretty well. But it ends there. Politoed and Ninetales carry toxic. Hippowdon will use roar or let himself get encore'd into stealth rock. Well, sand teams don't use hippowdon anyway. They use the super awesome perfect fantastical super fun time ultra special specially defensive mixed tyranitar. Since tyranitar is immune to mirror coat, he'll just spam fire blast until you're within KO range of crunch.