I think Dugtrio would be better than Wobbuffett as he can actually KO Tyranitar and Ninetails, and maybe even weakened Politoed too
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
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Admittedly they aren't exactly the same but you cannot deny the comparison has some merit. Yes using RS removes several turns of hazard setting, but with a spinblocker this is moot, making it harder to RS than use a weather move. They both have different good and bad things to them, but this doesn't make the comparison invalid.
That said, the fact that weather activates on the switch-in can be turned to your advantage too, it isn't always a huge loss of momentum for the non-weather team. Also, switching in takes a turn in most cases, so unless you use a weather move as something U-Turns out they opponent will have to use the same number of turns to get their weather back up. Anyway, the fact that weather takes a switchin to set means that you can fairly reliably assume that the inducer is really wanting to come back in, and you can take advantage of this by catching it with a SE move, subbing up, or similar. As well as this, if you use the weather move as the inducer comes back in, you force them to switch twice in order to regain their weather, which is a pretty nice window to exploit. The requirement to switch inducers in to set weather is exploitable, and is not a reason to disregard weather moves.
CB Dugtrio does 80.7% - 95.5% to max HP TTar which is a good chance of OHKO after SR. Actually, even if Dugtrio doesn't OHKO, TTar won't be able to change the weather a second time as it will die to SR upon the next switch in. Dugtrio is quite underated imo, 120 base speed is crucial in this metagame as it can outspeed and revenge kill threats like the Genies, Starmie, Terrakion and Virizion among the others.
I use Focus Sash Dugtrio to take care of Tyranitar, works perfectly fine. Hell I even use it as my Stealth Rocker.
Humhum.
This reminds me of the hype Weavile got last Gen as the ultimate Revenge Killer. And what happened? It went down the drain. I don't really think a Pokémon that is basically a one-use grenade helps anything to any significant amount. Not to mention that if the opponent's core Pokémon happens to NOT be the one you KO'd (and before anyone comes in calling me unlikely, I've gotten pwned multiple times by people who did a sweep attempt with what was basically a decoy only to come in with their main offence seconds after the decoy had died), you just performed a Kamikaze action that didn't accomplish anything.
This reminds me of the hype Weavile got last Gen as the ultimate Revenge Killer. And what happened? It went down the drain. I don't really think a Pokémon that is basically a one-use grenade helps anything to any significant amount. Not to mention that if the opponent's core Pokémon happens to NOT be the one you KO'd (and before anyone comes in calling me unlikely, I've gotten pwned multiple times by people who did a sweep attempt with what was basically a decoy only to come in with their main offence seconds after the decoy had died), you just performed a Kamikaze action that didn't accomplish anything.
if drizzle + swift swim is banned, then why sand stream + sand rush isn't?
I undertand that pokemon with swift swim had to be nerfed, but is the same case with Stoutland and Excadrill, specially the last one for these reasons:
Both pokemon are incredibly fast, outspeeding almost every non-bulked pokemon
(Stoutland speed: 568 / Excadrill speed: 604 in sandstorm) and carrying a large amount of attack (Stoutland attack: 328 / Excadrill attack: 405), getting many KOs without bulking up
Furthermore, its logical to try killing those with faster moves, but Excadrill has resistance to all of them, but three: Aqua Jet, Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave
Resistance to: Fake Out, Extremespeed, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch and Quick Attack
I undertand that pokemon with swift swim had to be nerfed, but is the same case with Stoutland and Excadrill, specially the last one for these reasons:
Both pokemon are incredibly fast, outspeeding almost every non-bulked pokemon
(Stoutland speed: 568 / Excadrill speed: 604 in sandstorm) and carrying a large amount of attack (Stoutland attack: 328 / Excadrill attack: 405), getting many KOs without bulking up
Furthermore, its logical to try killing those with faster moves, but Excadrill has resistance to all of them, but three: Aqua Jet, Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave
Resistance to: Fake Out, Extremespeed, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch and Quick Attack
Sandstorm does not give a STAB boost to Sand Rushers though unlike many swift swimmers which get there water STAB boosted
True enough, but Excadrill has 550 speed with Adamant anyway. What outspeeds that?
Choice scarf deoxys-s, lol. Hell, choice scarfed base 115's don't even outspeed it. That's why jolly balloon excadrill is ultimately the most wasteful set in this game. Just because it "counters" other dory (which is doesn't since it's a 50/50 chance) doesn't mean it's the better option.
Yes, but...
- They can be walled.
- We have a solid Exca counter in Gliscor
- Gliscor can wall Stoutland pretty neatly too
- You can change the weather
- One of the most common pokemon, Conkeldurr, carries Mach Punch
- Swift Swimmers got an STAB boost as well
- There was a multitude of abusable Swift Swimmers to the point where if you actually managed to check them all you'd get torn apart by teams that didn't carry them
- Even if you managed to KO one swimmer, another would come in, kill your weakened "counter", and sweep the rest of your team.
Choice Scarf Deoxys-S cannot OHKO Dory with Superpower, and a Psycho Boost certainly is not going to OHKO.
As for why Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned, but Sandstorm + Sand Rush wasn't...
- Many viable Swift Swim abusers, only one Viable Sand Rush abuser.
- SS abusers get a power boost as well as a speed boost
- SS abusers are not weak to ANY form of priority. Sand Rush Abusers are [Mach Punch for Excadrill and Shoutland, Aqua Jet for Sandslash and Excadrill]
On the other hand, Swift Swim had Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and possibly Goyrabass/Huntail [Shell Smash and Swift Swim *Shudder*]
Chrorphill is a similar issue. The pokemon who abuse it do not get extra STAB, one of their weaknesses doubles in strength, and there is only one viable Chrorophill abuser, Venusaur. [Jumpluff is viable as an annoyer, but outclassed by out 5th Gen grass annoyer with priority, Whimiscott]
I'm sorry but Sand Veil chomp is fucking retarded. I don't give a fuck what the percentages are. Every time it at least gets one miss. That is a guarantee. I just faced one that got three consecutively off of perfect acc attacks. I'm not just bitching over this one instance because this is a usual occurrence. Sand Veil just needs to go. That stupid shit makes me wonder why this is even called competitive pokemon...
There are better facts to support that standpoint than that.
The percentages do matter, and they're enough for Sand Veil to be an issue. And with Substitute, a miss is nearly guaranteed, and that miss will always translate to more boosts.
Either way, while it may be questionable whether or not it's enough to justify banning any Pokemon or ability entirely, there should be no question that it's enough to justify banning the combination of Sand Stream + Sand Veil.
The metagame is not just sand/rain offense/stall. I have seen so many different playstyles used, including sun offense, anti-weather, stall with no weather, offense with no weather, even hail teams. I haven't just seen these teams used, but I have seen them used very effectively. Hell, I lost to a hail team earlier today! The metagame is no less diverse then it has been in previous generations. In fact, I'd say that weather makes it more diverse.
I'm kind of tired of these complaints about permanent weather with no backing whatsoever. Every time someone says something against weather, it's either really ignorant or really vague (or both). The most common complaint I have seen in this thread is "weather is too powerful/overcentralizing," with nothing substantial to back it up. Saying that you are forced to run a weather changer in this metagame isn't even true in the first place. It's the same as saying that you have to run a Steel type, or complaining that you can't use your favorite pokemon Beedrill successfully. If you don't bother to prepare your team for the metagame, you have no right to complain that it's impossible to beat teams that are prepared.
I'm kind of tired of these complaints about permanent weather with no backing whatsoever. Every time someone says something against weather, it's either really ignorant or really vague (or both). The most common complaint I have seen in this thread is "weather is too powerful/overcentralizing," with nothing substantial to back it up. Saying that you are forced to run a weather changer in this metagame isn't even true in the first place. It's the same as saying that you have to run a Steel type, or complaining that you can't use your favorite pokemon Beedrill successfully. If you don't bother to prepare your team for the metagame, you have no right to complain that it's impossible to beat teams that are prepared.
ehh.
If we WERE considering banning Sand Veil and Sandstorm we should even consider if it is even needed. The whining about Sand Veil is (lets face it) limited to Garchomp and Garchomp only. To my knowledge Sand Veil (or indeed Snow Cloak) is not really broken on any other pokemon. This means that basically its not Sand veil broken, but rather Sand Veil is broken on Garchomp
So yeah for this reason I am against a Sandstorm + Sand Veil ban especially as it really only applies to Garchomp in which case don't fuck around with a complex ban and just ban Garchomp
If we WERE considering banning Sand Veil and Sandstorm we should even consider if it is even needed. The whining about Sand Veil is (lets face it) limited to Garchomp and Garchomp only. To my knowledge Sand Veil (or indeed Snow Cloak) is not really broken on any other pokemon. This means that basically its not Sand veil broken, but rather Sand Veil is broken on Garchomp
So yeah for this reason I am against a Sandstorm + Sand Veil ban especially as it really only applies to Garchomp in which case don't fuck around with a complex ban and just ban Garchomp
The point about the percentage is that people often deem it negligible, that it causes an occasional miss, when it's actually a much bigger factor than that.
My favorite argument from you (BAN ME PLEASE) wanting to keep Sand Veil is when you tell people to "stop bitching". Bitching about it is understandable when you're essentially being cheated out of a win each time. Just go to Thorhammer if you want some intellectual shit justifying it.
My favorite argument from you (BAN ME PLEASE) wanting to keep Sand Veil is when you tell people to "stop bitching". Bitching about it is understandable when you're essentially being cheated out of a win each time. Just go to Thorhammer if you want some intellectual shit justifying it.
Waiting for DW abilities won't solve anything. Random ass pokes like Cacturne lose a lot of their viable movepool, so that creates a whole different problem. We've been through this before. Welcome to the thread. People will freak the fuck out if we ban Sand entirely or Chomp alone.
Thor's complex ban is probably the cleanest way to deal with Sand Veil imo. We already used a similar one to deal with rain in R2.
Rain isnt dealt with at all. Spaming surfs and hydro pumps and other boosted water attacks are still in majority. The best way to do it is no stupid complex bans anymore. Just ban garchomp until its ability is released. ban drizzle because its destroying the game. And ban excadrill who benefits from the sand as well. Now you have to work to get rain and sand isnt powerful.
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