Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am also against being able to buy nature changes, but I like the idea of an RP to change it. However, this should be much more than simply walking into a thread, and posting your pokemon. My idea, is to make the trainer go on an adventure of sorts, similar to a raid but with weaker pokemon, and possibly other things (terrain). The way to chane your pokemon's nature is to make your choices in there reflect the new nature that you want. So if you want Brave, you would send our a weak pokemon against a strong pokemon or somethig like that. A Hasty pokemon can go too far ahead of his trainer, a Jolly one can cheer up their trainer after a loss. This way changing natures is intersting and hard. At the end, the trainer can show reasoning to how they think they showed thier desired nature. Then an un-biased groupcan decide. However, this could also backfire, if you show an undesirable nature.
 
Tailoring Hidden Power or your nature to a match is an absurd idea, and even if it were possible and someone did it, more power to them. If you're so hot and bothered over it, just make it pricey enough that it's not something you'd want to do frequently. The option needs to be there for people who legitimately make mistakes and are willing to pay whatever the price to fix it so long as it's not like 30 counters. (May as well re-buy the Pokemon) Honestly, outside of Deck's point about match tailoring, there hasn't been a single good argument against the nature changes. Everyone just thinks "omg it can't happen in the anime without an ADVENTURE IT IS BAD!!1". That's ridiculous.
 
Deck Knight said:
You also only choose your Hidden Power when you actually purchase it, so unless it comes innately with the Pokemon (Shellos and Burmy pretty much.) then you can wait until you've built up your Pokemon more before deciding.
Click to expand...

Actually some pokes like Reuniclus get is as the "befeore level 25" moves, but i ment BIG movepools changes, not because increasing your attacks, but if your pokemon get's an attack it wasn't able to get before (Just like in next games, or in special events)

On the matter of changing of Nature, if a RP were made, i agree that the nature would be a nice way, but only be able to do it once every *(ad very long time in here), make it be at least two weeks long to avoid being abused before an important match, and charge some nice amunto 3-5 TC would be ok since this is an important desition and making it really easy just makes people not appreciate it as much

Hidden power might be a One-Time-Change, since really, how many times can you make the same mistake?, if you've made the desition of changing it because it ws a mistake, then letting you change it ONCE it's (in my opinion) more than enough
 
Actually, that's a decent point. If you're making the same mistake over and over, dwi by then. Buy another move. Go mixed. Whatever. What about just allowing 1 nature/hp change per poke, period?
 
Do it right the first time. Long-term planning is an important skill in the game since you can't get every useful move at once. Since the setting is intended to be more realistic and you can't get a free nature or Hidden Power switch in-game, where your Pokemon basically is data rather than more character based, you shouldn't be able to just shift something that's tied to a fundamental aspect of the Pokemon.

I'm lenient with shifts when mechanics change sufficiently that an intelligent person would be incentivized/disincentivized from selecting that aspect. Otherwise you make the bed you lie in.
 
Recently on IRC, I had a chat with DarkSlay and a few others.
We were discussing how items are too hard to get by at this point in time. Some people argued that the RPs should be given time to mature and develop so that we can reap the results of them and get items in that fashion. Others had pointed out that they didn't see what the point was in waiting for this shift to happen. Getting one's hands on a good item like Leftovers or Choice Scarf is a dream for everyone in CAP ASB. It sadly isn't attainable at this point in time, except through the Battle Subway. However, not many people feel like going through the dreariness of exhausting themselves with that (especially if they wanted to get the item quickly). The discussion then turned towards making these specialty items open to the general public through the usage of TC. Items like Leftovers would cost 40 TC and such. I saw issues with this because a similar argument could run for Ubers. We could just go about buying Lugias and Enteis for 80 TC a piece. But that's not my main point here.

The argument for this was that many RPs favored those who had a large quantity of Pokemon at this time. The problem is is that if someone has 10 Pokemon, they can get away with sending their Main Pokes off to RP while they battle with their weaker mons, whereas those with 3 or 4 could not as easily.

I feel like the solution to this would be determining which RPs actually should utilize the "Rule" (of which is currently not even in written form. the only time that the point in which it is mentioned is for Deck's response to my Berry Orchard Proposal), in which the pokes used in the RPs can't be used elsewhere.

In the Role Playing Proposal Thread, Deck Knight clearly states that it is TIME that is the most important factor of Role-Playing. Pokemon should NOT be the determining factor in who gets to Role Play or not. TIME should be.

Therefore, I would like to re-examine the guidelines that are made for each and every RP currently and see whether or not such a "rule" (which isn't even written out in text), should be implemented. Not every RP needs such a guideline. The Battle Subway, and a few of those other "Battle Clones" don't need that kind of stuff. Personally I feel that RPs that involve: Raids, Shops, Story-based, or Contests should enforce that ruling (with few exceptions, but at this time there are none). The reason for this is that those kind of RPs involve mainly flavor based activity.
 
i don't even know why i'm attempting to post or why these state of the games keep popping up at the worst time for me buuuuut i'll try to keep this short since i don't have much time to begin with!

Sub:

Yeah, I'd be cool with making it still vary, but at like 15/20/25 or whatever like someone else said. I mean, unless you get absolutely wrecked by some 4x weakness it'd be pretty hard for a lot of pokemon to not care about subs much. The thing with making sure the sub survives with 1 HP is what kind of makes this shitty, but i'm sure most people feel the same way.

i'm not the biggest fan of keeping it with one set variable, but i guess that could be more like in game and stuff.

Field Effects:

i agree with this, iirc deck already said something about this that sounded alright

Coats etc:

there have been a bunch of people who were fine with this and so am i, especially when more pokemon who get "crippled" by only attacking one way get stuff like toxic

Battle cap:

ehh, it seems like a bunch of people don't like this and i sort of agree with the ref shortage etc

this new rp rule thing:

i would prefer to keep the rule consistent over all rps to avoid confusion unless we did some scaled thing with like "short rps" vs "long rps" but that really seems like a stretch

i'd just prefer an all or nothing approach to this i guess
 
Deck Knight said:
Otherwise you make the bed you lie in.
Click to expand...
To be fair, in-game I can use an AR or something to recreate my Pokemon in mere minutes. I will admit to you right now, that I would be willing to pay 10 MC to change Hidden Power types. I have, for instance, invested 100 tokens into my Lucario. I cannot replace him, but I made a foolish mistake with his Hidden Power type, and I will pay to have it fixed. I also know that I am not the only one who has done this. If you're worried about people spamming it before battles, even though 10 MC is an absurd price to shell out for the purposes of counter-teaming, you could put a limit on the number of times it can be done per Pokemon, like 3. If you remain adamant about this merely for the sake of punishing players, then it cannot be helped, but know that you're doing so for no logical reason and only for yourself.


@ Acklow:
The plan was to transfer the items over to being able to be purchased with TC as well. Deck wanted originally to make it a 1-to-1 transfer, so something that costs 20 BP would cost 20 TC, with the exception of the 1 BP items which would be bumped up to 5 for each one. It was never finalized mostly because Deck didn't follow through with it, despite that the items are perfectly available from the Subway.

Furthermore, the Subway isn't the only RP that contributes to BP. All Frontier facilities reward BP, such as the Hall, the eventual Castle, and smash's Factory whenever he actually gets it going. Right now RPs are still 'fresh' in a manner of speaking; we really don't have that many. Once they pick up a bit down the road, I imagine BP will not be so difficult to get and the items will not be mere dreams.
 
1) Substitute
Yes, definitely. From battles that I've seen, 25 HP sub seems awfully powerful, and this seems like a good solution.

2) Field Effect Duration
Ehhhhh.... I'm gonna hold my tongue on this one, at the risk of being biased. o___o

...okay I WILL say that if these moves ARE being reduced in the amound of time they're up for, they should also have a significant energy reduction as well.

3) CounterCoat and Metal Burst
As I've said before, Counter and Mirror Coat aren't that bad with the restrictions on move substitution that we currently have, but Metal Burst should be buffed to something like 1.15x or 1x as much damage, something much lower than it currently is, yeah. Burst wouldn't be so bad if most of its good users didn't also get Taunt, making the whole Toxic thing kind of a less legitimate strategy against it LOL. (...and then, y'know, there's the fact that most users of it are also Steel-type. xP)

4) Bumping the battle cap up to 4
Definitely. Okay I forgot about the ref shortage. Let's change my vote to... errr... maybe, I guess. Dx

Other:
I really also want to see moves that are currently useless become more worthwhile. Torment is one such move. Here's the move's definition:
Torment: The Pokemon imbues dark energy into a taunt, preventing the opponent from using the same move twice in a row for six (6) actions.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Dark | Priority: 0
Click to expand...
Hardly anyone uses moves twice in a row anyway due to the energy penalty for consecutive move use, so Torment is pretty overly-specialized if not completely worthless outright. I want to see Torment do something like this:
Torment: The Pokemon imbues dark energy into a taunt, preventing the opponent from using using the same move twice in a row or from using any moves used in the previous round for six (6) actions.

(keeps the same same energy cost, old energy cost was too much for a useless effect.)
Click to expand...
...or something like that. The wording could be a little better, or the effect tweaked slightly, or something.

Example: Say it's a Dratini VS a Murkrow or something. In the first round, Dratini uses Ice Beam, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Rush, and Murkrow uses Torment as one of its moves. In the progressive round, Dratini cannot use any of those three moves, and cannot repeat any of the moves it uses. So basically it's like an in-game Torment that affects all the moves used in a round, instead of a single action. Same duration, same energy cost. And optionally, it could still have the same effect as the old Torment (not like it was breaking anything anyway). Maybe add something to prevent chills, I don't know. To me, this effect (or one like it) this really sort of feels closer to what Torment is supposed to do, though. I imagine this would be much more frustrating (tormenting?) for the victim, anyway.
 
...so. Really random-but-obvious minor implementations.

Add Drill Run to Colossoil's Gen V levelup movepool. This is 100% a flavor implementation (along with a buff for raids), but about as obvious as one can get.
Add Flash, Swords Dance, and Rock Slide back into the Embirch line's 5th Gen TM movepool. Embirch's family gets all of these by gen 4 TM and they maintain their gen 5 TM status, but for some reason they are not listed in Embirch's Gen V movepool, or for that matter, Flarelm/Pyroak's.


Also, I agree that Torment needs a buff. I would go with that updated Torment.
 
Banryu said:
Other:
I really also want to see moves that are currently useless become more worthwhile. Torment is one such move. Here's the move's definition:

Hardly anyone uses moves twice in a row anyway due to the energy penalty for consecutive move use, so Torment is pretty overly-specialized if not completely worthless outright. I want to see Torment do something like this:

...or something like that. The wording could be a little better, or the effect tweaked slightly, or something.

Example: Say it's a Dratini VS a Murkrow or something. In the first round, Dratini uses Ice Beam, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Rush, and Murkrow uses Torment as one of its moves. In the progressive round, Dratini cannot use any of those three moves, and cannot repeat any of the moves it uses. So basically it's like an in-game Torment that affects all the moves used in a round, instead of a single action. Same duration, same energy cost. And optionally, it could still have the same effect as the old Torment (not like it was breaking anything anyway). Maybe add something to prevent chills, I don't know. To me, this effect (or one like it) this really sort of feels closer to what Torment is supposed to do, though. I imagine this would be much more frustrating (tormenting?) for the victim, anyway.
Click to expand...

To some degree, I agree with what you're saying here. But the effect you provided is insanely overpowered. At most I would say something like this:

"Torment: Prevents the pokemon from using a move used more than once this round for six (6) actions."

OR

"Torment: Prevents the pokemon from using the same move for four (4) actions, including the action this move is used."
--i.e. effectively 3 actions

I prefer the first case, as it is not overpowered, but it does prevent some very common attacking formulas, like the following:
Strong SE~weak/average SE~Strong SE
SE~status move~SE
recovery~Strong SE~Recovery




just my two cents.
 
I'm aware of the possibility that my definition may be overpowered or otherwise not optimal for whatever reason; the point is simply to make it so that it's no longer underpowered, whatever that entails. I'm really not picky about it. Both of your versions sound fine to me, in fact.
 
How about:
Torment
Prevents the pokemon from using tha same attack on the next three actions after it's use

PS: How about giving Scratchet, Scratch? just a little flavor an no competitive value at all
 
I have noticed that the Energy Cost of Absorb-type moves is rather steep.

Let's use Giga Drain (8 BP) on something. Assuming STAB and that the target's SpD is the same as the user's SpA, that's effectively a 12.5 BP move. The Calculator says that should be a 8 or 9 EN attack, but it's 12 EN. That doesn't really justify the cost of using the move.

I believe that the Energy Costs of the following moves should be no more than 2 above their Base Power but preferably 0 or 1 above:
Absorb, Drain Punch, Giga Drain, Horn Leech, Leech Life, Mega Drain.

SUBSTITUTE:
I think it's fine, but the Energy cost -- as is -- is far too steep. Safeguard, a 7 EN move, lasts for 5 rounds, while a Substitute is lucky to endure 2. It ought to be 3(Substitute HP) / 5 Energy per Substitute--if not that low, then 7/10 HP--which considers the extra effects that this somewhat situational move blocks.

Remember, a Substitute blocks most non-damaging effects and, when it's destroyed, partial damage from one attack.

FIELD EFFECT DURATION
They're rather long, but they're also rather situational. I think a 3-round timespan is suitable, as long as the Energy Costs are reduced a bit to reflect it; the opponents can take advantage of the effects, too.

COUNTERCOAT, BIDE, AND BURST
I've stated my position on these moves before. Bide, Counter, and Mirror Coat ought to do 1.25x damage, and Burst ought to do 1x. Burst can really only be stopped by Burn, which is hard for most Pokemon to inflict, and it requires little prediction when used first, especially alongside Taunt. Bide is in a similar boat, except it really can't be used as freely as Metal Burst can due to the delay. Counter and Coat can be circumvented through use of unaffected attacks or through Toxic, Poison, or Burn.

BATTLE CAP TO 4
Once we get out of this ref shortage, definitely. Now? Possibly. 6/10 that it would be a good idea right now.
 
Countercoat and Metal Burst are easily fixed without nerfing them. You simply make them a variable BP move, with a BP effected by the incoming move. So make CounterCoat have a BP equal to the BP of the incoming move *1.5, and Metal Burst a BP equal to the BP ofthe incoming move, *1.25. Making energies scale, it becomes less broken, and has recieved the support of the community.
 
What about Flinch Moves?
Do they pass actions, so if a flinch happens the pokemon will flinch in the next action or he has to be slower than the poke that attacked with the flinching attack to be flinched, this is because Sky Attack passes the first and second action rounds, but it can't pass rounds, but i don't know if that also applies to every flinching move, or it's just a special case and you have to be faster than the other pokemon to actually finch him
 
I'm still not seeing the problem with Metal Burst or CounterCoat, especially now that priority has been added to the attack listings, as well as how combinations affect priority. The moves are pretty good, but not to the extent they are complained about. If you mess around with priority (moves like Focus Punch and Vital Throw, using Combinations) you can get around Metal Burst.

There's a few moves I refer to in my head as n00bslayers. Metal Burst is on there with Double Team.

Although there is something important that was brought up.

Codifying Effect Priority:

Effects can be tricky to ref depending on when they happen in a round. Here is a listing of priority on effects and the dropping of various counters.

Beginning of action: Confusion Stage, Speed Tie Flip (if moves are similar speed/complexity. Otherwise simpler moves like Water Gun beat more complicated moves like Surf)

Beginning of action effects occur before either player begins their action.

During action: Bide Activation, Bide Release, Confusion Activation, Confusion Damage, Flinch Activation (except Sky Attack), Paralysis Activation, Sleep Stage, Taunt Activation, Disable Activation, Encore Activation, Magnet Rise Activation, Reflect Activation, Light Screen Activation, Safeguard Activation, Telekinesis Activation.

During action effects occur as that action is being used. If a Pokemon is faster, they will be able to activate effects like flinch or benefit from defensive actions.

After action: Poison, Toxic, Leech Seed, Burn, Weather Damage, Partial Trapping Move Damage, Bide Stage, Yawn Stage, Taunt Stage, Disable Stage, Encore Stage, Magnet Rise Stage, Reflect Stage, Light Screen Stage, Telekinesis Stage.

After action effects occur after both Pokemon have completed their actions.

Beginning of next action: Sky Attack Flinch

Sky Attack is the only attack that calculates flinch on the opponent's next action.

Beginning of round: Global effects used on the last action of the previous round.

On the third action of a previous round, a global effect will not activate. Instead it is summoned at the beginning of the next round and has its duration for the full span of all rounds relevant rounds.

End of round: Paralysis Stage, Stat Reset Check, Perish Song Stage, Safeguard Stage, Global Effect Stage.

End of round effects are resets on paralysis, stats, and reduction in the round counters of global effects, Safeguard, and Perish Song.
 
idk if i should post this here or in the data audit thread, but is there a reason why kricketot doesn't require only 4 ec to evolve? i feel that if burmy needs less ec, so should kricketot, but idk i might be wrong.
 
Fire Blast said:
I am also against being able to buy nature changes.
Click to expand...

I am for it, espially since I want to change my Dratini's nature :OP.

I think the extra MC if EC and DC is full is a good idea as it would prompt more fully-evolved battles. I am strongly for this

The only one I disagree with is the implantation of not being able to evolve mid-battle. This is Anime Style Battling and do Pokemon evolve mid battle, YES.

Anyway onto the ones that are discussable.

1) Agree, I think sub is broken and the only People are disagring is because they use sub. I think 15-20 HP limit should do it.

2)Agree, Field effects go onto for way too long but maybe have it at 10 turns rather than 6.

3)Not too sure, haven't encoutered it yet.

4)Yes, currently my battles are dragging on and on, an increase would be appreciated.
 
Metal Bagon said:
The only one I disagree with is the implantation of not being able to evolve mid-battle. This is Anime Style Battling and do Pokemon evolve mid battle, YES.
Click to expand...
By this logic, Pokemon should be able to learn moves in-battle if they have the MC for it. One particularly absurd example I recall is when Ash's Noctowl suddenly learned Confusion mid-battle with gym leader Morty, without which he was on the fast track to losing that match. :0 I dunno about you, but that doesn't seem quite right to me. Just because the anime did it, doesn't mean we should do it too.
 
Banryu said:
By this logic, Pokemon should be able to learn moves in-battle if they have the MC for it. One particularly absurd example I recall is when Ash's Noctowl suddenly learned Confusion mid-battle with gym leader Morty, without which he was on the fast track to losing that match. :0 I dunno about you, but that doesn't seem quite right to me. Just because the anime did it, doesn't mean we should do it too.
Click to expand...

We banned it because it allowed far too many "deux ex machina" moments-things which give people an instantaneous, large advantage they shouldn't. Again, we're battling in the style of the anime-we don't need to necessarily follow (although a precedent in the anime can help) every detail, especially some of the things that do not translate well to text-based, almost roleplaying gameplay.

I.e. a losing fight, before evolving with a KO counter mid-fight and blasting the shit out of your opponent.
 
At the above, I don't even think in-battle evolution should be allowed at all. I've seen quite a few opponents win in what is supposed to be an nfe, or otherwise fair battle by cheaply evolving a pokemon as it's sent out. Admittedly, I'm not entirely unbiased as I've had this used against me to completely annhilate any chance I had of winning. (Not naming anyone in particular, though I'll tell you what to search for if you ask...)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top