np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Yoshiken]

But is anyone actually going to use tbolt / NP / focus blast / taunt?

;_;

...Just sayin'.

Edit: And no, I won't be for much longer. Being hard-countered by Gliscor is not fun, especially not with Exca on the team.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Your reply has nothing to do with the part of your previous post that I specifically called out. You said that if something forces out Excadrill it's not a problem for the mole user since it can just come back later. The fact that it has few viable "hard counters" is another story.

Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush. What I meant was -

Excadrill can only be taken down via Wall Counter (Gliscor/Skarmory/Brongzong/Romotom-W) or by a priority check i.e Azumarril. Should the lateral die then Excadrill can easily sweep a team. That's what sets Excadrill apart from other sweepers, with SS up it can outrun all Pokemon including scarf revenge killers, essentially losing out on many potential checks.

Therefore in comparison to other sweepers, Excadrill's counters and checks are severely limited and thus it is much easier to prepare for them. For example if I pair up Excadrill with Celebi, I not only check priority threats such as Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Hitmontop, I also check Rotom-W, Gliscor and Brongzong (as it can't hurt Celebi). As for the switching out part I meant that Excadrill cannot be worn down easily by switching in and out constantly to an appropriate counter - as SR does minute damage and Toxic Spikes/T-wave does not effect Excadrill. Therefore allowing Excadrill to easily wear down your team until any specific threat is dealt with.

Also, I find hilarious how you and some others always assume that sandstorm is the default weather when discussing about Excadrill. Actually, should you have massive troubles with Excadrill, even if you don't want to run a weather inducer yourself, you can just run rain dance\sunny day\hail on on some member of your team just to cancel SS.

I have heard comments like this before, why don't you use 'Hail on your Tentacruel or whatever to cancel out the permanent weather.' Yes this is a possibility but I must ensure the opponents weather inducer is KO'd first - therefore relating back to the all so common weather war story.

The fact is, there is no reliable way to deal with permanent weather (particularly Drizzle and Drought as I do not find the effects of SS broken aside from Sand Rush Excadrill), other than by inducing your own weather or through the use of Cloud 9 Golduck. In most cases, like you have roughly implied, it's not a fight to 'win', it is the fight to gain control of the weather (as the person with the weather on their side has a much greater chance to win), which in reality to me represents an unbalanced and unhealthy Metagame.

 

[Yoshiken]

The other big problem with running a weather-inducer is finding the time to use the move. They bring in their weather Poke on something else of yours. Okay, switch in weather inducer -- Oh they brought in Excadrill. So now we have to have one of those checks as the weather-inducer or lose it. Yaaay.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Okay, I know the Ho-oh thing was mentioned a while back and was left behind, but I'm kinda tired of seeing "Ho-oh for OU" so I'm going to see if Ho-oh actually can fit into OU without breaking everything.

1. Typing
Fire/Flying has never been great.
Fire hits Bugs, Grass, and Steel for SE damage and gets resisted by Water, Rock, Fire, and Dragon.
Flying hits Bugs, Grass, and Fighting for SE damage and gets resisted by Rock and Steel.

Still, this pretty much hits almost everything in OU. Only Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Heatran resist it, and only Heatran doesn't care for a Sacred Fire burn. Did I mention that only Zapdos can naturally out speed the phoenix?


2. Defensive power
106/90/154 Defenses are very good.
Even with no investment, Ho-oh's Sp.Def reaches a jaw-dropping 344.
To go along with his super high Sp.def, his HP starts at 353!

Just so you can see how strong this is:

Thundurus' LO boosted STAB T-bolt: (76.49% - 90.08%)
Now, this seems like a lot, but think about it. It's a STAB SE move boosted by a Life Orb(coming from an awesome 125 Sp.A) against a Ho-oh with no investment whatsoever.

I wont even calculate a Jellicent's Scald, as I'm pretty sure it'll be pathetic....what the hell? Lets do it: (29.46% - 35.69%)
Uninvested Ho-oh btw.


3. Offensive power:
130/110/90 stats aren't bad.
His Attack is great, his Sp.Attack is good, and his Speed is workable(+ he gets Flame Charge).
Better yet, he gets near perfect coverage in Sacred Fire(50% burn FTW), Brave Bird(we all know how good Flying is), and Earthquake. Only truly resisted by Rotom-W.
Now tell me. What exactly can safely switch in on Ho-oh?

Here's all of OU according to May's usage stats:

Hide

| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 |
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 |
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 |
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 |
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 |
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 |
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 |
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 |
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 |
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 |
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 |
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 |
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 |
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 |
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 |
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 |
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 |
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 |
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 |
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 |
| 21 | Infernape | 41804 | 7.6186 |
| 22 | Gyarados | 40430 | 7.3682 |
| 23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134 |
| 24 | Forretress | 37361 | 6.8089 |
| 25 | Ninetales | 34024 | 6.2007 |
| 26 | Hydreigon | 34009 | 6.1980 |
| 27 | Haxorus | 33256 | 6.0608 |
| 28 | Salamence | 32868 | 5.9901 |
| 29 | Magnezone | 32777 | 5.9735 |
| 30 | Terrakion | 32672 | 5.9544 |
| 31 | Vaporeon | 29003 | 5.2857 |
| 32 | Metagross | 28745 | 5.2387 |
| 33 | Breloom | 28481 | 5.1906 |
| 34 | Chandelure | 27876 | 5.0803 |
| 35 | Swampert | 27815 | 5.0692 |
| 36 | Cloyster | 26698 | 4.8656 |
| 37 | Scrafty | 26494 | 4.8284 |
| 38 | Hippowdon | 26166 | 4.7687 |
| 39 | Tentacruel | 25863 | 4.7134 |
| 40 | Lucario | 25625 | 4.6701 |
| 41 | Machamp | 23961 | 4.3668 |
| 42 | Deoxys-S | 23920 | 4.3593 |
| 43 | Toxicroak | 22830 | 4.1607 |
| 44 | Virizion | 22229 | 4.0512 |
| 45 | Espeon | 22019 | 4.0129 |
| 46 | Bronzong | 21683 | 3.9516 |
| 47 | Porygon2 | 21163 | 3.8569 |
| 48 | Mienshao | 21101 | 3.8456 |
| 49 | Venusaur | 21001 | 3.8274 |
| 50 | Landorus | 20408 | 3.7193 |
| 51 | Latias | 19992 | 3.6435 |
| 52 | Whimsicott | 19976 | 3.6406 |
| 53 | Darmanitan | 19229 | 3.5044 |
| 54 | Zapdos | 18115 | 3.3014 |

Now, what can switch in?

Hide

Tyranitar: Fears a burn + Earthquake
Ferrothorn: lol
Garchomp: Fears a burn + he's banned
Scizor: lol
Gliscor: LO BB deals (51.69% - 61.02%) to 252 hp/180 def/72 Spe Gliscor
Latios: Gets OHKO'd by LO BB
Rotom-W: Only true counter in OU. Still fears a burn.
Excadrill: lol +0 Exca's Rock Slide can't OHKO Max def Ho-Oh either
Reuniclus: Max/max Reuniclus gets 2HKO'd by LO BB
Heatran: BB + EQ will always kill him
Jirachi: lol
Dragonite: Fears a burn + LO BB 2HKOs after Multi-Scale breaks(max/max Dnite)
Conkeldurr: lol
Politoed: 2HKo'd by LO BB
Gengar: OHKO'd
Skarmory: Max/Max Skarm gets 2HKo'd by LO SF
Thundurus: LO SF deals 95% - 112%(66% chance for OHKO)
Jellicent: Max/max Jelli gets 2HKO'd by LO BB
Starmie: OHKO'd by BB
Volcarona: Max/Max Volc gets OHKO'd by LO BB
Infernape: lol
Gyarados: Fears a burn, otherwise -1 LO BB 3HKOs
Blissey: lol
Forrettress: lol
Ninetales: Gets OHKO'd by LO EQ
Hydreigon: LO BB deals 85% - 100% still fears a burn
Haxorus: 66% chance to OHKO. Fears a burn.
Salamence: -1 LO BB still 2HKOs Mence. Fears a burn too.
Magnezone: lol
Terrakion: LO BB deals 86% - 101%; Fears a burn
Vaporeon: 2HKO'd by LO BB
Metagross: lol
Breloom: rofl
Chandelure: OHKO'd by LO EQ
Swampert: 51% chance to 2HKO Max/Max Swamp with LO BB after Lefties
Cloyster: Gets 2HKO'd by LO BB; Fears a burn
Scrafty: lol
Hippowdon: Max/Max Hippo gets 3HKO'd by LO BB, but fears a burn
Tentacruel: OHKO'd by LO EQ
Lucario: lol
Machamp: lol
Deoxys-S: Fears a burn; OHKO'd by LO BB
Toxicroak: lol
Virizion: rofl
Espeon: OHKO'd by LO BB
Brongzong: lol
Porygon2: Max/Max EvoPory2 gets 3HKO'd by LO BB; Fears a burn
Mienshao: lol
Venusaur: lol
Landorus: Deals 87% - 102% with LO BB; Fears a burn
Latias: max/max Latias gets 2HKO'd by LO BB
Whimsicott: lol
Darmanitan: OHKO'd by LO EQ
Zapdos: Max/Max Zapdos gets 4HKO'd by LO BB; Fears a burn anyway

There you go.
Every single pokemon in OU and only 3 of them can safely switch in, but all 3 of them fear a burn.
This is assuming an offensive LO Ho-oh with BB/SF/EQ/Filler.
With OU's abundance of Steels, switching in Ho-oh would be easy and let him cause havoc.

"oh, but SR pwn him"
Anyone who's going to use Ho-oh should have a dedicated spinner. It's like using Volcarona, only this thing has almost no counters.


Now, no one ever mention "Ho-Oh for OU" ever again.

<,<

 

[Woodchuck]

Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush. What I meant was -



Therefore in comparison to other sweepers, Excadrill's counters and checks are severely limited and thus it is much easier to prepare for them. For example if I pair up Excadrill with Celebi, I not only check priority threats such as Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Hitmontop, I also check Rotom-W, Gliscor and Brongzong (as it can't hurt Celebi). As for the switching out part I meant that Excadrill cannot be worn down easily by switching in and out constantly to an appropriate counter - as SR does minute damage and Toxic Spikes/T-wave does not effect Excadrill. Therefore allowing Excadrill to easily wear down your team until any specific threat is dealt with.




I have heard comments like this before, why don't you use 'Hail on your Tentacruel or whatever to cancel out the permanent weather.' Yes this is a possibility but I must ensure the opponents weather inducer is KO'd first - therefore relating back to the all so common weather war story.

The fact is, there is no reliable way to deal with permanent weather (particularly Drizzle and Drought as I do not find the effects of SS broken aside from Sand Rush Excadrill), other than by inducing your own weather or through the use of Cloud 9 Golduck. In most cases, like you have roughly implied, it's not a fight to 'win', it is the fight to gain control of the weather (as the person with the weather on their side has a much greater chance to win), which in reality to me represents an unbalanced and unhealthy Metagame.

But what's so crucial about reliably dealing with permanent weather? Seems extremely reliable to kill Tyranitar then set up temporary weather. Yes, you have to ko the weather starter first. This is how pokemon works. You ko your opponent's counters (Tyranitar) to your counter (random weather inducing move) to your opponent's sweeper (Excadrill). But you can also just kill Excadrill with any random priority OR you can wall it OR you can encore/Stun Spore it with Whimsicott.
Or you can just have your team kill it before it sets up. Excadrill's typing certainly isn't brilliant, as remarked before, and it doesn't hit all that hard unboosted.
Honestly, it's been voted OU. Why are you bringing this up again.

Also, I don't see the problem with carrying your own weather inducer. It's a perfectly viable way of checking things, just as using Stealth Rock to check Volcarona is. Also, this idea of weather wars being detrimental to the metagame seems misplaced. Yes, it can often cause battles to revolve around a few crucial pokemon. But wasn't that the case last gen? If someone had, say, SD Lucario, and your counter (Gliscor) was dead, you were screwed. Was SD lucario broken? lolno.

My point is, weather wars don't seem to be broken, and beyond "broken" it's rather ridiculous to toss around vague terms like "detrimental to the metagame". We ban broken things; Pokemon that are so powerful that they make the game unplayable because they are everywhere. How can you know that a pokemon is detrimental to the metagame if it isn't broken? How can you know what banning the pokemon would actually do to the metagame?

I think people these past few pages are failing to realize that the problem with Excadrill is not that he's broken, but rather that he is supremely detrimental to the health of the meta-game.Not every Pokemon that is the latter has to be broken, and I , convinced by Snunch's arguments, believe Excadrill to be a great example of such a Pokemon. His existence domino effects through the meta-game creating many adverse effects despite being only of moderate power within the meta-game itself.

"Creating many adverse effects" which ones? Stop tossing around vague language and actually name them. If it's not broken, then my view is it obviously isn't detrimental enough to be banned. Every pokemon will have effects through the metagame, and another important point is how can you even know if these effects are detrimental.

From my point of view, those who are trying to ban Excadrill are grasping at straws, and the obvious consensus from the voting pool is that it isn't broken.

 

[yaya0]

Ho-Oh for OU... lol just kidding. I see your point, and with Garchomp gone this metagame might be a bit more balanced.

Ho-Oh@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Sacred Fire vs Tyranitar (252/252 EVs, Neutral Nature): 21.2 ~ 25.2% (86 ~ 102 HP) (Sandstorm)

Ho-Oh@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Earthquake vs Tyranitar (252/252 EVs, Neutral Nature): 56.9 ~ 67.3% (230 ~ 272 HP) (Sandstorm)

 

[haunter]

Stuff

Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush. What I meant was -



Therefore in comparison to other sweepers, Excadrill's counters and checks are severely limited and thus it is much easier to prepare for them. For example if I pair up Excadrill with Celebi, I not only check priority threats such as Azumarill, Conkeldurr and Hitmontop, I also check Rotom-W, Gliscor and Brongzong (as it can't hurt Celebi). As for the switching out part I meant that Excadrill cannot be worn down easily by switching in and out constantly to an appropriate counter - as SR does minute damage and Toxic Spikes/T-wave does not effect Excadrill. Therefore allowing Excadrill to easily wear down your team until any specific threat is dealt with.

That's called offensive synergy and is nothing new in competitive play. You pair your main sweeper with something capable of defeating its counters. Then again, the fact that you can counter the likes of Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Hitmontop, other random Drill check, doesn't mean that your opponent has to be dumb and leave them on the field. In fact they'll probably have something like Lati@s to switch into your Celebi and save their check/counter for when Excadrill comes in again.

I have heard comments like this before, why don't you use 'Hail on your Tentacruel or whatever to cancel out the permanent weather.' Yes this is a possibility but I must ensure the opponents weather inducer is KO'd first - therefore relating back to the all so common weather war story.

Yes, it's a possibilty. But if you don't want to run a dedicated counter/check to Excadrill then that's something that you may consider as well.

The fact is, there is no reliable way to deal with permanent weather (particularly Drizzle and Drought as I do not find the effects of SS broken aside from Sand Rush Excadrill), other than by inducing your own weather or through the use of Cloud 9 Golduck. In most cases, like you have roughly implied, it's not a fight to 'win', it is the fight to gain control of the weather (as the person with the weather on their side has a much greater chance to win), which in reality to me represents an unbalanced and unhealthy Metagame.

I don't want to go deep into this debate, but I'll just repeat what someone else has already stated: "Gen V is weather". If you don't like weather wars then just go play DPP OU.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

My point is, weather wars don't seem to be broken, and beyond "broken" it's rather ridiculous to toss around vague terms like "detrimental to the metagame". We ban broken things; Pokemon that are so powerful that they make the game unplayable because they are everywhere. How can you know that a pokemon is detrimental to the metagame if it isn't broken? How can you know what banning the pokemon would actually do to the metagame?

This should be somewhere in Smogon's philosophy, honestly. "Broken"=Makes the game unplayable. "Detrimental to the metagame"=some bullshit term that some idiot made up and used as an excuse to ban things.

If you don't like something that's not broken, tough luck. You have no right to vote it Uber. If you don't like weather but realize that it's not broken, you're obligated to vote it OU, regardless of "overcentralization" or "detriments". Banning things on personal preference jeopardizes the excellence of the Suspect Test process.

 

[Rosey Oak]

This should be somewhere in Smogon's philosophy, honestly. "Broken"=Makes the game unplayable. "Detrimental to the metagame"=some bullshit term that some idiot made up and used as an excuse to ban things.

If you don't like something that's not broken, tough luck. You have no right to vote it Uber. If you don't like weather but realize that it's not broken, you're obligated to vote it OU, regardless of "overcentralization" or "detriments". Banning things on personal preference jeopardizes the excellence of the Suspect Test process.

Then why do so many arguments for pro-weather evolve around 'personal preference' -
making statements with nothing to do with factual evidence or information:

"I'll just repeat what someone else has already stated: "Gen V is weather". If you don't like weather wars then just go play DPP OU."

'If you want a say in the system go and ladder.'

'Weather promotes diversity, therefore it is good for the Metagame.'

'You can't prove a Metagame without weather would be more balanced.'

'The majority of voters feel Drizzle is not broken, therefore it isn't broken.'

 

[haunter]

This should be somewhere in Smogon's philosophy, honestly. "Broken"=Makes the game unplayable. "Detrimental to the metagame"=some bullshit term that some idiot made up and used as an excuse to ban things.

If you don't like something that's not broken, tough luck. You have no right to vote it Uber. If you don't like weather but realize that it's not broken, you're obligated to vote it OU, regardless of "overcentralization" or "detriments". Banning things on personal preference jeopardizes the excellence of the Suspect Test process.

Exactly:

Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.

Many newbies who post in this thread should read this before voicing their opinions.

 

[TheValkyries]

"Creating many adverse effects" which ones? Stop tossing around vague language and actually name them. If it's not broken, then my view is it obviously isn't detrimental enough to be banned. Every pokemon will have effects through the metagame, and another important point is how can you even know if these effects are detrimental.

From my point of view, those who are trying to ban Excadrill are grasping at straws, and the obvious consensus from the voting pool is that it isn't broken.

Hey, can you read? Snunch made a fantastic post as to why Excadrill creates adverse effects earlier in the thread, and as I said in my post, it's not about if Excadrill is broken or not. Personally, I was with you in that Excadrill clearly isn't broken, but Snunch's argument convinced me he's a problem that needs to be discussed, but not because of his strength and speed being overwhelming, but because of how the strength and speed has impacted the meta-game. With that said, my post was intended to say that in discussing Excadrill for this reason we shouldn't be discussing his counters and checks, but rather how he negatively effects the game if he does at all.

Just in case you didn't feel like checking: Snunch's post.

Honestly, Excadrill isn't broken. But that isn't the question, the question is does he break the meta-game? Not all Pokemon that Break the meta-game have to be broken.

 

[Woodchuck]

Honestly, Excadrill isn't broken. But that isn't the question, the question is does he break the meta-game? Not all Pokemon that Break the meta-game have to be broken.

Seriously? The definition of broken is "breaks the metagame". As Haunter has already said, read Smogon's Philosophy and stop dancing around the point that if it's not broken, we shouldn't ban it.

Honestly, your stating that Excadrill has "detrimental effects on the metagame" is just the recourse for the people who want it banned but admit that their position of Excadrill being banned is indefensible.

That being said, I wouldn't think an Excadrill-less metagame would be bad. What would be bad is the precedent. No, I am not arguing slippery slope, but if we ban Excadrill for having "detrimental effects on the metagame", then we've made a shift from banning only the things that are broken to banning things because we don't like them.

This would be an extremely disturbing contradiction to Smogon's philosophy.

 

[Joel]

Honestly, Excadrill isn't broken. But that isn't the question, the question is does he break the meta-game? Not all Pokemon that Break the meta-game have to be broken.

Only if the meta retains sand after this round of testing.

Seriously? The definition of broken is "breaks the metagame". As Haunter has already said, read Smogon's Philosophy and stop dancing around the point that if it's not broken, we shouldn't ban it.

Honestly, your stating that Excadrill has "detrimental effects on the metagame" is just the recourse for the people who want it banned but admit that their position of Excadrill being banned is indefensible.

That being said, I wouldn't think an Excadrill-less metagame would be bad. What would be bad is the precedent. No, I am not arguing slippery slope, but if we ban Excadrill for having "detrimental effects on the metagame", then we've made a shift from banning only the things that are broken to banning things because we don't like them.

This would be an extremely disturbing contradiction to Smogon's philosophy.

Not necessarily. Take away Excardill's Sand, and I don't think he would even be UU, therefore, the Poke itsealf isn't broken.

Leave Excadrill in the sand/weather based metagame, and this is where wee are. A "suppossedly" broken metagame.

No, I don't think Excadrill is too strong, nor does it break anything, but I can see the point Valkyries was trying to make.

 

[Drawler]

I don't want to go deep into this debate, but I'll just repeat what someone else has already stated: "Gen V is weather". If you don't like weather wars then just go play DPP OU.

Haha yes, why debate when you can just unilaterally declare that the metagame must revolve around weather this generation ?

This is one of the most annoying memes that has come out of Gen 5, and that's probably due to obnoxious weather advocates using it to shut down debate. Gen 5 added all of 2 new weather induces, three if you count Vulpix. If weather is breaking the metagame or just making it plain unfun to play there is absolutely no reason why we can't or shouldn't cast that shit to Ubers.

 

[haunter]

Haha yes, why debate when you can just unilaterally declare that the metagame must revolve around weather this generation ?

don't put words into my mouth, I just said I wasn't interested into the weather centralization argument.

This is one of the most annoying memes that has come out of Gen 5, and that's probably due to obnoxious weather advocates using it to shut down debate. Gen 5 added all of 2 new weather induces, three if you count Vulpix. If weather is breaking the metagame or just making it plain unfun to play there is absolutely no reason why we can't or shouldn't cast that shit to Ubers.

What's really obnoxious is people like you who just come here to bitch instead of trying to provide good arguments as to why weather should be banned. How is weather breaking the metagame? Prove it or shut up.

 

[alexwolf]

Another very decent excadrill check is scarf politoed!
He doesn't belong in the weather part of the solutions 'cause this the weather inducer argument relys on playing on the defensive to check excadrill.If you win the weather war you win exca.If not you lose to exca...

But scarf politoed does check exca in a very offenisve way and creates no weather wars!Scarf politoed is also a very solid revenger for hyper offensive teams!

You don't even have to use a weather team to use politoed.You can just use him as a scarfer with great power(Drizzle) and great speed against weather abusers.
Just make sure that your team doesn't get hindered by drizzle and you are fine.
And make sure that your team doesn't benefit from drizzle since then you would be creating a drizzle team and you would be relying on politoed pretty much to win the game...
But with scarf politoed you don't rely on politoed at all.You use him clearly for killing the weather threats!!!

So if you have troubles with excadrill and you don't want to run walls(skarmory,gliscor,bronzong),priority,balloon or weather just run scarf politoed!
Ninetales works also but she is frailer,has less power and worse coverage...She has better speed though...
Ah and she can't really check sun abusers since they outspeed her.
But politoed outspeeds most rain abusers since the swift swimmers are banned in drizzle.

 

[Jared]

I'd hate to see everything that can sweep in sandstorm be banned. Garchomp is banned, and Excadrill has a good chance of being a suspect again. If Excadrill goes uber then what else will be keeping sandstorm as a viable weather for a team? As annoying as it is, I'd not want it becoming another useless weather like hail.

 

[Rosey Oak]

If you don't like something that's not broken, tough luck. You have no right to vote it Uber. If you don't like weather but realize that it's not broken, you're obligated to vote it OU, regardless of "overcentralization" or "detriments". Banning things on personal preference jeopardizes the excellence of the Suspect Test process.

I think the key word missing here is 'Not'. Seeing as I've seen all to many arguments that don't want weather banned for 'personal preference'.

I'd hate to see everything that can sweep in sandstorm be banned. Garchomp is banned, and Excadrill has a good chance of being a suspect again. If Excadrill goes uber then what else will be keeping sandstorm as a viable weather for a team? As annoying as it is, I'd not want it becoming another useless weather like hail.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I'd hate to see everything that can sweep in sandstorm be banned. Garchomp is banned, and Excadrill has a good chance of being a suspect again. If Excadrill goes uber then what else will be keeping sandstorm as a viable weather for a team? As annoying as it is, I'd not want it becoming another useless weather like hail.

Hail has more abusers than sandstorm...it's useless because of it's typing, not because of a "lack" of abusers. Also,what does it matter if sandstorm isn't viable for a team? We shouldn't decide what's uber and what's not based on if something is "vialble"

 

[Axmaster68]

Okay, I am new here and wanted to know what it means and/or what application I need to be 1450 or below/above to vote on this round of voting.Also, what about peaks? My current team has peaked at #644+, but has dropped off lately because Excadrill and a few others have been really annoying me. Thanks and sorry I am such a noob here, but at least I'm willing to admit it.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Okay, I am new here and wanted to know what it means and/or what application I need to be 1450 or below/above to vote on this round of voting.Also, what about peaks? My current team has peaked at #644+, but has dropped off lately because Excadrill and a few others have been really annoying me. Thanks and sorry I am such a noob here, but at least I'm willing to admit it.

1450 are the points required for voting. To see your points right click your name and go to view ranking. It says your rank number on the left and your number of points on the right. Peaks are just for your own personal achievements - they don't mean anything in terms of voting.

And don't worry about it, we all have to start somewhere =3

 

[Voost]

Interesting to see the changes, next round results should be especially interesting to see. :D

 

[Dracolosse]

I'm so glad Garchomp is banned, when it started using the SubSD sets waiting for you to miss I couldn't stand it anymore... Its just to easy to use and too frustrating to face.

I don't think there's anything else that should be banned for now thaugh.

 

[Charro]

I think that we need to implement a little more the japanese way to fight in our philosophy, excuse my english but I want to point this out

Thundurus
Should it be banned?

I think that we need to consider some factors for this.

Thundurus have 1 counter, and a very vague one, Quagsire
But it have tons of checks because is fragile and most scarfers are able to revenge kill it.
But it adds a new level of strategy in the game, priority status moves and weather modifiers, I would like to compare Thundurus to Gallade, Gallade in 4th gen have no counters but it still ended BL, why?, because it was slow, while Thundurus is fast as fuck it is very manageable because it is fragile, it's susceptible to some priority moves like Extremespeed, Sucker Punch and specially Ice shard, and it can't do anything against scarfers (priority thunder wave makes it lose coverage), we don't need to ban it, we need to promote the usage of more strategy moves (like priority), prediction, and revenge killers, is not like they're dead weight after killing Thundurus, Scarf Terrakion for example checks tons of shit like Volcarona, Dragonite, Mence, etc.
Thundurus is a hell of a sweeper, but we can't ban it just for that, or we will ending banning a lot of things

Blaziken was cheap, after 2 turns we was almost impossible to outspeed, Darkrai can put to sleep it's counters, and was hyper fast, Shaymin-S was even worse, cheap as hell, and hits like a truck or stall like a boss, Garchomp was in the same bag as Thundurus, awesome sweeper but it have the hax on his side, that was the only reason why it end banned.

So in conclusion, Thundurus, while is a retardedly good sweeper, it's not broken just because it have no counters, it's not unhealty for the metagame, and you don't even need to overspecialize to deal with it

Excadrill on the other hand....I still don't know what to think about it, it can be countered and checked, but there's something different about it and other sweepers, so I'm not gonna say anything about it

 

[Chameleon]

Honestly, your stating that Excadrill has "detrimental effects on the metagame" is just the recourse for the people who want it banned but admit that their position of Excadrill being banned is indefensible.

That being said, I wouldn't think an Excadrill-less metagame would be bad. What would be bad is the precedent. No, I am not arguing slippery slope, but if we ban Excadrill for having "detrimental effects on the metagame", then we've made a shift from banning only the things that are broken to banning things because we don't like them.

This would be an extremely disturbing contradiction to Smogon's philosophy.

Is this not precedent already? I keep hearing that the reason the ability Moody/Inconsistent was banned was because it was hated and detrimental to the metagame, not because it was broken. Moody abuse was statistically bad (so they say), so it was not broken, but it drove everyone nuts trying to get around it and was banned for it. I mean, even hax items were banned. Were they banned because they were broken? I don't think so... They've been around for a long time and very little changed about them, but suddenly they're gone.

Furthermore, Garchomp (like everyone) had counters. He was Ice Shard weak, often locked into Outrage, outsped by the Latis, and was troubled by Skarm, Bronzong, and balloon steels. But he went. Yeah, maybe I have the wrong idea about broken vs. breaking the metagame, but in the end it's all about overcentralization. In my opinion, Excadrill does that at least as much as Garchomp did.

I agree with Snunch that Exca should go. I would also like to add that slower agility, RP, and Flame Charge users are all instantly nerfed by Exca's presence. Plus, Steel/Ground is excellent typing (dual status immunity, resistance to more priority moves than it's weak to, 4x SR resist), and his main counter is useless unless you waste a turn breaking his balloon if he has one. Maybe if his defenses were a little lower, he would be easier to check because more varied priority would hit harder, or if his offenses were a little weaker to add more checks...