np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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When I tried Scarftar at one point, I used Rock Slide over Stone Edge because I did not want to risk missing at all. If you're relying on Tyranitar to check Thundurus solely, I'd highly suggest Rock Slide.
 
Tobes said:
Wow, that's impressive. Was Blaze active or no?
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It wasn't active, but SR was up, so that's probably what did it. I run Ape on a sun team, so with sun support that KO is is sure to happen regardless of rocks or not. Even without sun support, Infernape can get away with attempting a nasty plot sweep. +2 Vacuum Wave ohkos Excadrill, which is your biggest problem. Without any setup, you ohko Gliscor.

To help with the latios and thundurus/tornadus problem, I run Infernape on a team alongside Venusaur and Volcorona. Venusaur outspeeds and removes threats that would normally outspeed Infernape. Chesto rest Volcorona handles the lati twins, and attracts the attention of things that get in Infernape's way, such as jellicient and Azumarril (niether of which stop Volcorona, sun or no sun, unless the former is running tocix and taunt). Chesto rest volcorona also absorbs the priority thunder wave from thundurus if I'm not using safegaurd Ninetales or healing wish jirachi. Another team member who helps out is life orb dugtrio, who actually outspeeds choice scarf tyranitar and kos him with the slightest bit of prior damage, and then uses memento to allow any of my other sweepers to setup.

My biggest problem with this team is gamefreak itself, who has failed to introduce any good rapid spinners that are also capable of setting up stealth rock and aren't named forretress.


Sword's Dance infernape, on the other hand, just isn't worth running, mainly due to the lack of a powerful fire STAB that isn't flare blitz.
 
Actually Specs Jolt seems like it could be fun to use. Volt Switch is a neat little boost for it, although it may want to consider Baton Pass since Ground-types are pretty common now.

Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Volt Absorb
Modest / Timid 0/0/0/252/4/252
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- HP Ice / HP Grass
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch / Baton Pass

Interestingly enough, the only thing Modest Jolteon fails to outspeed that Timid beats is Starmie or Raikou, who's generally not switching in anyway in the former's case and still beats Jolteon in the latter's. Even the genies are outsped with Modest. Thunderbolt is the obvious main STAB, although Thunder would of course be used on a Drizzle team. HP Ice nails Dragons, Gliscor, Landorus, etc. while Grass hits Quaggy / Gastrodon / lol Swampert. Signal Beam hits both Tyranitar and Lati@s, but Shadow Ball has chance to OHKO Latios with Stealth Rock (and is guaranteed to do it if Latios has switched in twice) if you really want that thing dead. Volt Switch is generally the best in the last slot, but dry Baton Passes also work if you're paranoid about losing momentum to Ground-types.
 
I've been using scarf Landorus and let me tell you that thundurus has actually survived rock slide in the rain... I'm not too happy with scarf landorus for the most part. Sub landorus is excellent though, just pair it with something to beat bulky grass types like Celebi / Breloom / Tangrowth.
 
Um with Ground types all around Specs Jolteon sucks according to my experience.
I'm using a modest one with Expert Belt, TBolt / HP Ice / Signal Beam / and seriously Magnet Rise and it works like a champ.
 
The only ground types that aren't fucked over by the appropriate hidden power are excadrill and mamoswine (still doesn't enjoy taking a specs hp grass), and that's why you can run baton pass in the last slot. Jolteon checks thundurus really really well, saying it sucks isn't really accurate.
 
alphatron said:
Rotom-W hasn't replaced them. Rotom-W isn't even used as a bulky water that often-his most common EV spread is an offensive variant. He can't phase or wishpass like vaporeon. He can't take even SE hits like Milotic. He doesn't have regenerator and can't setup like Slowbro/Slowking can. If you wanted to run a bulky water than can do what Rotom-W can't do, then you'll find that you're out of luck once he uses your bulky water as a free switch in for himself.

For the record, shaymin handles him too.
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I meant to get to this a while ago. In hindsight, you're right about Rotom-W not necessarily "replacing" bulky Water-types of this gen, but I was referring more to its ubiquity than its role. Whenever I face a Sand team, I don't see Vaporeon, Suicune, or Swampert, I see this guy. It can still perform the standard duties of checking Heatran, Gliscor, Tyranitar, etc., and it really is telling that its usage is so much higher than every other Water type in the tier. If Rotom-W were merely a check for other bulky Water-types, there wouldn't be such a huge discrepancy in usage between them, despite those all-important niches you claim the rest have over him.

All I know is that bulky Water-types, despite being cornered now more than ever this gen, are still extremely important in the metagame and can hack it even in the presence of their enemies. Vaporeon is still really good at what it does and can outlast Rotom-W without Pain Split through spreading burns for residual damage and constantly healing itself once it gets in on something it can check. Once Ferrothorn gets burned, it's not outlasting anything; it's just going to get set up on by whatever is switching in, or let the likes of Tentacruel keep doing its job.

I was actually very surprised to see a stall player like Meru complain about beating something as simple as Rotom-W, since the the best it can do for recovery is Pain Split, and hitting it with Toxic is essentially game over.
 
I would also like to reinforce the utility of Scarftar. Starmie, the Genies, Sun Sweepers, Lati@s, Gengar without a sub, Sun Sweepers, almost all fire types - it handily revenges every single one of these, which is pretty impressive when you cnsier it can als sponge the odd special hit and provide infinite sand. However, it should not be used on a team which requires sand to win, because on a team like that, tyranitar should always be running a bulky set in order to outlast the opposing inducer. In my experience, trying to be offensive with your inducer is a great way to lose the weather war, so you better be prepared for that enventuality. (sp?)
Still, if you are only using weather as a deterent of sorts, Scarf Tyranitar is the best way to do it. You also have the advantage of being able to outrun and OHKO cocky Ninetails that aren't paying attention, or smack the switchin hard. A great may sun teams lack an easy way to absorb rock attacks, so smacking them early on can put them in a difficut situation.
Anyway, I just wanted to emphasie the utility there. It you are smacking an inducer onto a team simply because you hope it will give you an easier time with opposing weather (and really, this is a very sensible thing to do) scarftar is easily the best one for general ability to check dangerous Pokemon.
 
Pwnemon said:
Something that needs more love is CB Azumarill.

In rain, assuming no prior damage, its Aqua Jet does a minimum of 97% to Thunderbro.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, both Waterfall and Superpower OHKO tyranitar.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Aqua jet does a minimum of 83% to Landobro, and 82% to Terrakion.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Ice Punch fucks the shit out of Gliscor.

In sand, assuming no prior damage, Aqua Jet one-shots Excadrill.

Assuming no prior damage, Superpower deals a minimum of 81% to max/max+ Ferro, and most run Sassy with SpDef investment.

Assuming no prior damage, Aqua Jet does 71% minimum to a standard Heatran.

His Ice Punch can OHKO a Dragonite that hasn't lost Multiscale (If I understand the ability correctly.)

He's not stopped by common Waters, either. Return OHKOes offensive Rotom, Politoed, all Starmie, deals 74.9% min to offensive Gyara (so close) with intimidate, etc. Alternatively you could just use Superpower on the first two to guarantee a takedown of even defensive sets. Really his only cold counter is Jellyman.

Etc, Etc. He really appreciates Rocks Support, but if you give him that, he's such a potent revenge killer, and he's pretty easy to slap on a team. Gen V, meet your Heatran.
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Just posting to say that Azumarill is incredibly good right now. It really disappoints me that it doesn't see more usage.

Also, could anyone clarify for me how special applications for voting rights work? I can never get past 100 without getting haxed back down into the 300s, so I'm going to need it
 
Nails said:
hp fighting latios is outclassed, if you are running a moveslot to hit ttar and only ttar run grass knot. Life orb timid Latios does 40.6-48.2 to max/max lefties ttar in sand, which has like a 20% shot to 2hko after sr. with chople on it, it goes up to a 58% chance to 2hko it. in practice though ttar will have taken some more residual damage, so it's pretty much a secure 2hko. more importantly though, it allows you to run hp fire for scizor and ferrothorn while not losing coverage on tar, or you can have a 31 speed iv while still getting coverage on tar. a win either way.
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In the rain, hp fighting is better because it lets you hit both T-Tar and Ferrothorn with a single moveslot, so you can use surf and dragon pulse for stab (lolz)
 
hp fire is still stronger than hp fighting against ferro, even in the rain.


Max Special Attack Kingdra HP fighting to Max HP Max SpD Ferrothorn= 106 (there are decimals but it rounds down)
Max Special Attack Kingdra HP Fire to Max HP MAX SpD Ferrothorn= 110 (decimals that round down also)

hitting ferro and scizor harder, while still maintaining coverage on ttar is better than losing coverage scizor (who can take a surf, but not an hp fire)
 
70 * 4 = 280 / 2 = 140
70 * 2 = 140

???????

Also Scizor is hit harder in the rain by Surf than HP Fire. 95 * 1.5 = 142.5 > 140

Edit @ below: Yeah, that makes sense I guess.
 
I'm quite sure the damage difference comes from the damage formula rounding down every multiplication right after it's done, so there can be small diferences between A x B x C and A x C x B.

But even then, is a 4 HP difference in damage even remotely relevant?
 
I'm in love with CBswampert. Once you get it in and it's raining, the fun starts. And it's so easy to bring this guy on Thunduruses and TTars.
The old Adv TTar counter returns with some muscle.

@Thundurus:

Modest Manectric @ Choice Scarf
Switcheroo
Thunderbolt
Flamethrower
Hidden Power[Grass] (Swampert > Gliscor)

Best troll ever. I was going to write a big wall of text here, but it's pretty obvious on how this guy works.
Ironically kinda sucks in rain as he can't go for Flamethrower to KO Thundurus and has to predict more.
 
the problem i have with using azumarill is flame body burns while aqua jetting mothra suck hard if they happen.

sure you get away with it 70% of the time but there's always that 30% chance your azumarill becomes worthless for the rest of the match god helps you if they pull out another threat like Landlos or t-tar who won't die to a burned aqua jet.
 
I'm a Volcarona & Rotom-W hater.
The first is bulky and have flame body, if you're in lack of rock-attack, water-attack hits less 'coz you have to run a physiscal one, and Volcarona are often seen in sun-team, so the water attack are weakned.
Rotom-W is so trolly 'coz it have a single weakness and is only 2x to it. The resistance are awesome expecially his immunity to ground. Add to it two incredible STAB, good stat, etc...and the ability to trick a choice item...man....Yeah ! The only real solution is to hit it hard with a special (most of the time) grass-attack. Toxic it is another solution, yes, but the opponent will continues to switch it for a eat'n run strategy.
 
I would like to share my thoughts on this round.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere in my honest opinion. Once a verdict on Thundurus position is final and assuming it is banned in the process, we still have good selection of Pokemon undecided. To name a few, Politoed, Dragonite and Latios.

I feel that it is these kind of threats that should also suffer the same fate as Garchomp, Blaziken and any 'Mon that follows.

Why? Because for instance, Garchomp changes entirely with just its ability alone, with a certain type of weather active. Yet, Politoed summons a unique weather in this metagame that already creates much speculation in itself, yet is capable of hitting harder than a Choice Specs' Draco Meteor (which, when not resisted, is essentially a super effective, 120 base power move)?

I sometimes question just what exactly is "too good" for OU these days lol, and how we desire our BW OU metagame to be played in.
 
Man there are so many references to "Aldaron's proposal" here that I was asked to clarify various puntas...er points.

a.) The proposal was made to clarify the concept that auto weather is a completely different beast that individual pokemon / moves / abilities. Its direct sphere of influence (note direct) over the metagame is far more encompassing than any one Pokemon (and yes, this would hold true even if we dropped Arceus down to standard ou)

b.) the proposal was made as a practical stopgap to prevent a cascade of bans that were more based on emulating a past generation's style metagame than adapting to what this metagame's could become

c.) the proposal BY NO MEANS was to act like a precedent declaring easy access to complex bans like no x ability on y pokemon with z move. Note a.)...auto weather abilities are FAR more complex than pokemon / moves / abilities, and therefore precedents for auto weather cannot (and do not) apply for p / m / a (too lazy).

d.) EVEN though a precedent was established for ONE auto weather ability, this STILL does not mean the precedent can easily be called on for the others; note the involvement / effort / time invested in even considering "my proposal": i pmed every paragraph submitter, i spoke for weeks on irc asking people in #dreamworld to debate what should be done, and i actually skipped an entire suspect period simply to see how the process would go if left alone. this was by no means an easy ban to consider, and therefore any future considerations of complex bans regarding auto weather should have the same complicated, time intensive commitment before being haphazardly thrown out to the community
 
Taylor said:
I would like to share my thoughts on this round.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere in my honest opinion. Once a verdict on Thundurus position is final and assuming it is banned in the process, we still have good selection of Pokemon undecided. To name a few, Politoed, Dragonite and Latios.
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Dragonite? Interesting. I'd like to hear more on the reasoning why Dragonite is broken, because I've not heard anyone else saying it is...

If you're going to put it down to Hurricane, Tornadus has higher Sp.Attack and STAB, and Politoad is what breaks Hurricane anyway.

Otherwise... I guess you mean bulky DD sets? I find those rather easy to deal with, but, I run a Thunder Wave Jirachi, which just Paraflinches Dragonite to death.
 
Taylor said:
I would like to share my thoughts on this round.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere in my honest opinion. Once a verdict on Thundurus position is final and assuming it is banned in the process, we still have good selection of Pokemon undecided. To name a few, Politoed, Dragonite and Latios.

I feel that it is these kind of threats that should also suffer the same fate as Garchomp, Blaziken and any 'Mon that follows.

Why? Because for instance, Garchomp changes entirely with just its ability alone, with a certain type of weather active. Yet, Politoed summons a unique weather in this metagame that already creates much speculation in itself, yet is capable of hitting harder than a Choice Specs' Draco Meteor (which, when not resisted, is essentially a super effective, 120 base power move)?
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I think that whilst specs toed can hit as harder or slightly harder than latios the latter is far more overpowered. This is for a Number of reasons, first is simply that dragon stab is far better than water stab having only one resist steel and when things like jellicent are running around with water absorb. Politoeds speed is also rather sub par in comparison to latios' base 110. For this reason specs latios can simply switch in, generally outspeed and destroy something and then come back later to cause more havoc. Whilst specstoed can cause destruction he simply does not have enough speed to be as effective.
Not only that latios can 2hko his checks like tyranitar with the only solid counters or checks being spdef jirachi and blissey both of which are severely crippled by trick.
I was disappointed to see latios fall off the radar at the end of last round and I hopethat sometime soon people realise how broken he is and make him suspect again.
 
We were doing so well, but I didn't expect Taylor of all people to derail the thread....

It's been shown again and again that arguing over what is and isn't broken in these threads accomplishes nothing. If you're being persuaded by a written argument that something is wrong instead of by actually playing, then there's a good chance something is off here. Please save the explanations for why something is broken for the nomination threads. Arguments here just drag the thread back into the "is Drizzle broken" quagmire it's been stuck in for such a long time, and I'd prefer not to see that happen again. So Taylor, although I realize you're probably reluctant to do this given your status as a Frontier Brain, instead of trying to ignite arguments, could you please share some sets and Pokemon you enjoy using and find successful in this metagame?
 
Razza said:
I think that whilst specs toed can hit as harder or slightly harder than latios the latter is far more overpowered. This is for a Number of reasons, first is simply that dragon stab is far better than water stab having only one resist steel and when things like jellicent are running around with water absorb. Politoeds speed is also rather sub par in comparison to latios' base 110. For this reason specs latios can simply switch in, generally outspeed and destroy something and then come back later to cause more havoc. Whilst specstoed can cause destruction he simply does not have enough speed to be as effective.
Not only that latios can 2hko his checks like tyranitar with the only solid counters or checks being spdef jirachi and blissey both of which are severely crippled by trick.
I was disappointed to see latios fall off the radar at the end of last round and I hopethat sometime soon people realise how broken he is and make him suspect again.
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The main selling point of Specs Politoed is that it throws strong attacks and sets up Rain. Although Latios will always be offensively superior on its own but Politoed makes its teammates stronger while offensively being useful. And Latios isn't broken at all. Sucker Punch and SR make Latios manageable on their own, but factor in the omnipresent weather and Latios isn't the powerhouse it was last gen.

Edit:
Raikaria said:
Dragonite? Interesting. I'd like to hear more on the reasoning why Dragonite is broken, because I've not heard anyone else saying it is...
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I'm not sure anyone would say it's outright broken but facing one isn't really fun with Multiscale making it bulky as hell but even then, if you're constantly getting walled by a Dragon/Flying type then you might want to consider dropping down to UU.
 
I'd like to hear more on dragonite as well. I assume it would probably come down to it's phazer sets or...welll...bulky DD with rain support.

No, I'm serious. This is just an assumption though. I feel like it is necessary for me to have stealth rock on every one of my offensive teams.

I've been using manectric for a while, but with specs over scarf. By the way, to attest to Volcorona being amazing, CB Azumarrill has no chance to beat bulky volcorona during sunlight at all. Volcorona will kill it before hand. Waterfall is a 2hko under sunlight. Aqua Jet is a 3HKO. Azummarill should stick around to tangle with life orb variants, but I'd suggest keeping him back if you see leftovers or no life orb at all.

Recently, I've been trying to run a bunch of random experimental junk. Reflect Type Latias with Magnezone support is friggin wonderful. I also have a small attachment to taunt hydriegon and houndoom.
 
alphatron said:
By the way, to attest to Volcorona being amazing, CB Azumarrill has no chance to beat bulky volcorona during sunlight at all. Volcorona will kill it before hand. Waterfall is a 2hko under sunlight. Aqua Jet is a 3HKO. Azummarill should stick around to tangle with life orb variants, but I'd suggest keeping him back if you see leftovers or no life orb at all.
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I second this. Factor in Morning Sun and Drought and your only options are little more than induce your own weather or die. Unless you have SR or your own weather it's basically gg if it gets up a Quiver Dance unless you got a Blissey with Toxic
 
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