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Data State of the Game - 09/05/2011 (Gym Announcement Post #53, Pay Day HotFix in OP)
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
- Status
Speaking of gym competition, does anybody else want Ice besides myself and GlacierKnight (who is inactive)?
Ok my thoughts..
1 and 2 I'm pretty OK with currently. Agree largely with the other comments made in that I haven't had enough experience with multiple subs to properly judge it. The size/weight class changes are fun stuff, making a bunch of moves a little different and more realistic than in game cannon. Like Engineer said it does put extra work on refs, but only a minimal amount. Also the size class changes actually made me order dodge in one of my matches, something I never thought I would do.
The changes in 3 are minor, just as it was said, and I don't have a major problem with either of them. Particularly with Sky Attack, it's already quite a strong move in ASB without the 30% flinch chance (and I always manage to roll a flinch when I'm reffing it too..)
The big issue here is mentioned in point 4, with overuse of energy. I like the idea Deck put forward, and would imagine that for same move combos the minimum required would be base energy*2 + 4, as that's what it would cost to use them both separately.
Gyms are going to be a huge topic, and I really think its going to end up derailing this topic entirely. I think we need to start another topic solely dedicated to gyms (and the CAP revamping) so as to keep this one on track. For Icebug's information I did also recently begin collecting mon's for a Bug gym team, but they're a long way off being ready for anything but losing in LC battles.
1 and 2 I'm pretty OK with currently. Agree largely with the other comments made in that I haven't had enough experience with multiple subs to properly judge it. The size/weight class changes are fun stuff, making a bunch of moves a little different and more realistic than in game cannon. Like Engineer said it does put extra work on refs, but only a minimal amount. Also the size class changes actually made me order dodge in one of my matches, something I never thought I would do.
The changes in 3 are minor, just as it was said, and I don't have a major problem with either of them. Particularly with Sky Attack, it's already quite a strong move in ASB without the 30% flinch chance (and I always manage to roll a flinch when I'm reffing it too..)
The big issue here is mentioned in point 4, with overuse of energy. I like the idea Deck put forward, and would imagine that for same move combos the minimum required would be base energy*2 + 4, as that's what it would cost to use them both separately.
Gyms are going to be a huge topic, and I really think its going to end up derailing this topic entirely. I think we need to start another topic solely dedicated to gyms (and the CAP revamping) so as to keep this one on track. For Icebug's information I did also recently begin collecting mon's for a Bug gym team, but they're a long way off being ready for anything but losing in LC battles.
As a possible side note, maybe it would be helpful to post who is applying for what gyms somewhere. It might be just a bit early yet to get an actual thread up for applications for this, but iirc someone had a chart with all this info on it stashed somewhere, just a thought.
1. This hasn't come up for me yet.
2. As above.
3. Ending Toxic's Cap: Not sure about this one, as while it's true the battle is probably over one way or another when toxic damage is at 5 DPA, I think 15 damage per round is more than enough.
Removing Sky Attack's next action flinch: Haven't had enough experience with this to fairly judge.
4. Agreeing on this one. To use a combo you should be able to use each move individually.
Gym League: Time to get a work-out for my steel mons. Looking forward to the competition.
2. As above.
3. Ending Toxic's Cap: Not sure about this one, as while it's true the battle is probably over one way or another when toxic damage is at 5 DPA, I think 15 damage per round is more than enough.
Removing Sky Attack's next action flinch: Haven't had enough experience with this to fairly judge.
4. Agreeing on this one. To use a combo you should be able to use each move individually.
Gym League: Time to get a work-out for my steel mons. Looking forward to the competition.
Right.
Time to go buy stuff.
Reposting in case it gets lost in the flood of questions: when's the cutoff for when we have to be ready by?
Time to go buy stuff.
Reposting in case it gets lost in the flood of questions: when's the cutoff for when we have to be ready by?
Mind you, by that time you have lost 45 hp and five rounds have passed and you haven't switch out, there are a lo of thinks worst than loosing n extra hp next round
Anyone else considering for a flying gym? I'll still need to at least three more battles with two of my current NFE's and I'll need to buy a fifth, but I'm just throwing it out there.
Also, about the new substitution rules, I was wondering if we could somehow incorperate Torment's effects into that somehow, I know this might be a bit of a strech and nobody will get what I'm saying but bare with me.
Torment as we all know prevents pokemon from using any attack used the previous round, but what if your pokemon only knows 20 some odd moves, some of which are support moves, and maybe say only 3 or 4 are effective against said pokemon you're battling. Pokemon uses Torment, congratulations, you've just had every move even slightly useful from being used next round. Now I know people might say "But thats why its so good" but if you're like me, I honestly think that it's bullshit and broken.
Now how would we incorperate it? Well, I think it should follow the 2 substitution rules, or maybe fix them a little bit to where as if a pokemon can only have 1 substitution place on it, torment only prevents the last move in the round prior to the current round from being used, giving it still some effect, but not completely disabling a pokemon, which is currently what it is able to do. Obviously if you can have two substitutions on your pokemon your movepool is large enough to be able to avoid that situation completely.
So um, yeah thanks for letting me rant lol but I'm hopeful I can find some like minded people out there.
Torment as we all know prevents pokemon from using any attack used the previous round, but what if your pokemon only knows 20 some odd moves, some of which are support moves, and maybe say only 3 or 4 are effective against said pokemon you're battling. Pokemon uses Torment, congratulations, you've just had every move even slightly useful from being used next round. Now I know people might say "But thats why its so good" but if you're like me, I honestly think that it's bullshit and broken.
Now how would we incorperate it? Well, I think it should follow the 2 substitution rules, or maybe fix them a little bit to where as if a pokemon can only have 1 substitution place on it, torment only prevents the last move in the round prior to the current round from being used, giving it still some effect, but not completely disabling a pokemon, which is currently what it is able to do. Obviously if you can have two substitutions on your pokemon your movepool is large enough to be able to avoid that situation completely.
So um, yeah thanks for letting me rant lol but I'm hopeful I can find some like minded people out there.
I believe the process was to start getting underway when the tournament finishes. Also, so this post is relevant, I've seen only one match where Toxic reached the 5 DPA limit, and the mon in question wouldn't have survived to go to 6 DPA. I don't personally see a point in removing the DPA cap.
EDIT: What do you mean, I never posted any of that. -.-
EDIT: I'm now going for Dragon type gym leadership. Anyone else trying? (please say no one else is trialing)
EDIT: I'm now going for Dragon type gym leadership. Anyone else trying? (please say no one else is trialing)
I think a gym system has already been formulated, with the Elite Four and Champion to come.
These two posts were three/four posts above yours -.-
Actually, I am probably also going to try out for Flying. I already have 4 FE Flying types, with two more coming soon when one of my current battles ends. This should be a fun competition.
I think it may be sensible to actually draw out a list of types and whoever's going for them. And I also agree with making a separate topic, there are other important things to discuss here, and we don't want to derail the thread.
Smash, I'm pretty sure nothing is being sorted until the tournament finished.
And as for me, Electric. Which puts me in competition with DF44. Super.
EDIT: Sudden thought for the CAP revamp in general. If moves are removed, and players have already bought these moves, will they receive an MC refund for the CAP to spend as they choose?
Smash, I'm pretty sure nothing is being sorted until the tournament finished.
And as for me, Electric. Which puts me in competition with DF44. Super.
EDIT: Sudden thought for the CAP revamp in general. If moves are removed, and players have already bought these moves, will they receive an MC refund for the CAP to spend as they choose?
I was thinking maybe electric or water but it turns out I don't have enough Pokemon for either...
May the best man (or woman? idk if any of you are female) win.
From the main CAP revamp thread:
Thanks Objection, must've skimmed over that.
1. New Substitution Rules
I like them. I haven't had a chance to use them in the past week due to the beginner battle's I've been in, but I've reffed a few double-Substitutions and I think it added an appropriate extra level of strategy to those matches. Personally, I would keep the move count for Pokemon eligible for the double-Substitution the same because it's stupid easy for a reasonably active player (who refs anything (especially Raids)) to get 20 or 25 moves on a Pokemon and I think that extra Substitution really pays off for the competitive aspect of this game.
2. Weight/Size Feedback
This has impacted me only as a ref so far, and in that way has really just made more work for calculating damage and energy cost of the affected moves. From a RP perspective, Weight and Size Classes are perfect and make tons and tons of sense and are a welcome addition. From a mathematical/referee perspective, it's a little more work when those moves come up (in combos guuuh), but it's not too much extra work to want the Classes removed. I can think of no reason to change these as of this post.
3. Minor Updates
a. I can see the removal of the Toxic cap being useful in the Raid Zone but not much anywhere else. Toxic doesn't cap in the games, and I doubt there's much precedent for it in the anime, so why does it cap here?
b. No opinion. Do what you will.
4. Energy Restriction on Combinations
That's a fine compromise, but I would like to know how strict of a rule that would be. For instance, I personally like and use the finalDamage=calculatedDamage*(EN/EN needed) formula for all energy-KOing attacks and I think it's fair. Would this implementation strictly force refs to allow any combination to be used at full power so long as it had the required energy for just the two individual moves?
ASB Gym League
Well I'm eligible for the Dark-type Gym, but since DarkSlay has more or less gone inactive, I don't think there is anyone else vying for the title. This is a shame, though, because I put a lot of counters into those 'mons, especially after I found out that I would likely have to battle DarkSlay to become Gym Leader. Now, unless someone I am unaware of has a Dark team ready, I doubt anyone will try to quickly train up a team to go against mine, effectively DQ-ing me from the running. I think there should be something done about this scenario where people have specifically and exhaustively trained a monotype team for the Gym League but are now getting iced by the lack of competition. Maybe in the second round of Gym creations those of us who have no competition could find a way to still establish Gyms to reflect all this hard work.
CAP Revamp
Fine by me. This is already up and running, so I'll just roll with that.
I like them. I haven't had a chance to use them in the past week due to the beginner battle's I've been in, but I've reffed a few double-Substitutions and I think it added an appropriate extra level of strategy to those matches. Personally, I would keep the move count for Pokemon eligible for the double-Substitution the same because it's stupid easy for a reasonably active player (who refs anything (especially Raids)) to get 20 or 25 moves on a Pokemon and I think that extra Substitution really pays off for the competitive aspect of this game.
2. Weight/Size Feedback
This has impacted me only as a ref so far, and in that way has really just made more work for calculating damage and energy cost of the affected moves. From a RP perspective, Weight and Size Classes are perfect and make tons and tons of sense and are a welcome addition. From a mathematical/referee perspective, it's a little more work when those moves come up (in combos guuuh), but it's not too much extra work to want the Classes removed. I can think of no reason to change these as of this post.
3. Minor Updates
a. I can see the removal of the Toxic cap being useful in the Raid Zone but not much anywhere else. Toxic doesn't cap in the games, and I doubt there's much precedent for it in the anime, so why does it cap here?
b. No opinion. Do what you will.
4. Energy Restriction on Combinations
That's a fine compromise, but I would like to know how strict of a rule that would be. For instance, I personally like and use the finalDamage=calculatedDamage*(EN/EN needed) formula for all energy-KOing attacks and I think it's fair. Would this implementation strictly force refs to allow any combination to be used at full power so long as it had the required energy for just the two individual moves?
ASB Gym League
Well I'm eligible for the Dark-type Gym, but since DarkSlay has more or less gone inactive, I don't think there is anyone else vying for the title. This is a shame, though, because I put a lot of counters into those 'mons, especially after I found out that I would likely have to battle DarkSlay to become Gym Leader. Now, unless someone I am unaware of has a Dark team ready, I doubt anyone will try to quickly train up a team to go against mine, effectively DQ-ing me from the running. I think there should be something done about this scenario where people have specifically and exhaustively trained a monotype team for the Gym League but are now getting iced by the lack of competition. Maybe in the second round of Gym creations those of us who have no competition could find a way to still establish Gyms to reflect all this hard work.
CAP Revamp
Fine by me. This is already up and running, so I'll just roll with that.
Alrite, Steel has me, Travellog, and C$FP gunning for it. This will be intense. I am the underdog.
LETS GET IT
And, as Korski said, I feel that the punishment for gyms not having two competitiors shouldn't be a flat 'no gym'. Maybe not in the initial creations, but they should definitely get a chance sometime down the road.
LETS GET IT
And, as Korski said, I feel that the punishment for gyms not having two competitiors shouldn't be a flat 'no gym'. Maybe not in the initial creations, but they should definitely get a chance sometime down the road.
I think Lupusater's going for, and will likely get, Dark Gym.
I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, bar the one man going for a gym thing.
zarator, SDS, GK, and Rolf pretty much scared any serious (read: eligible) challenger away by being amazingly powerful. If anything, it doesn't make sense to disqualify the people who would possibly be the best gym leaders. However, I do see the logic behind the decision, so I won't press the point.
Also winning record? For some types, this will be pretty much impossible due to common weaknesses (grass, bug, ice, arguably poison and normal for other reasons). I can also see that these types likely do not deserve gyms, so I also will not press the issue.
Five FE bugs: if I can get someone to ref my matches in the tower: done.
Movepool: ...Give me a few months.
Poison: Fairly solid in both. I might have to go back to that...
I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, bar the one man going for a gym thing.
zarator, SDS, GK, and Rolf pretty much scared any serious (read: eligible) challenger away by being amazingly powerful. If anything, it doesn't make sense to disqualify the people who would possibly be the best gym leaders. However, I do see the logic behind the decision, so I won't press the point.
Also winning record? For some types, this will be pretty much impossible due to common weaknesses (grass, bug, ice, arguably poison and normal for other reasons). I can also see that these types likely do not deserve gyms, so I also will not press the issue.
Five FE bugs: if I can get someone to ref my matches in the tower: done.
Movepool: ...Give me a few months.
Poison: Fairly solid in both. I might have to go back to that...
Please do NOT turn this thread into a discussion of who is vying for each type. If you are good enough, your will get the gym for your type sooner or later, and asking questions in this thread only serves to clog it up and distract the StoG from its true purpose. If you are that desperate to know, please ask around on IRC or check this (very) outdated link: http://pastebin.com/XUvVPWEi
Just saw this and thank FUCK is all I can say. This definitely goes a step towards balancing "last-ditch" combos, and I support it 100%.
Substitutions
I feel that the typing of the movepool also should be taken into consideration. Take for example Cyclohm's movepool, which has enough attacking moves of all stripes to be able to hit you super-effectively or with a very powerful STAB move no matter what type you are. With that large and varied a movepool, even 2 substitutions may not be enough.
I can't comment on weight and size.
Both minor updates seem reasonable to me.
Energy Restrictions on Combos
I disagree with this method of allowing mons with low energy to use ridiculously powerful moves. Even if you do really want to use that combo, it's your responsibility to keep your energy high enough to use it, especially since standard matches have 2 recovers and 5 chills. If you don't have enough energy, you faint. Done.
Gym League
To be honest, ASB was meant for a gym league. It's the perfect kind of structure for ASB as it exists right now. However, I think we should make provisions for when the league expands. Right now, 8 gyms may be enough. However, I think it would be worthwhile to allow multiple GLs (a la Iris and Drayden) in order to allow challenges to keep moving.
Also, just one more burning question about the gym league:
If a gym leader changes (due to W/L, activity, whatever), do previous winners of that badge have to rebattle the gym?
EDIT: Throwing my hat in the ring for Fighting as soon as I evolve my mons.
EDIT 2: Screw the tourney then. I'll hide it for anyone who wants to view it later.
I feel that the typing of the movepool also should be taken into consideration. Take for example Cyclohm's movepool, which has enough attacking moves of all stripes to be able to hit you super-effectively or with a very powerful STAB move no matter what type you are. With that large and varied a movepool, even 2 substitutions may not be enough.
I can't comment on weight and size.
Both minor updates seem reasonable to me.
Energy Restrictions on Combos
I disagree with this method of allowing mons with low energy to use ridiculously powerful moves. Even if you do really want to use that combo, it's your responsibility to keep your energy high enough to use it, especially since standard matches have 2 recovers and 5 chills. If you don't have enough energy, you faint. Done.
Gym League
To be honest, ASB was meant for a gym league. It's the perfect kind of structure for ASB as it exists right now. However, I think we should make provisions for when the league expands. Right now, 8 gyms may be enough. However, I think it would be worthwhile to allow multiple GLs (a la Iris and Drayden) in order to allow challenges to keep moving.
Also, the introduction of a Gym League allows for more interesting structuring of tournaments. In the anime, basically anyone who wants can enter the tournament, including Gym Leaders! In the same vein, we could set up a future tournament based on badges earned, like this: (just an example suggestion)
Gym Leaders: Automatic invite to Round 1. First round byes may be allowed depending on the amount of participants.
8+ badges: Automatic invite to Round 1.
7 or less badges: May enter a qualifying tournament, the top (fill in number of winners) are entered into the main tournament.
This type of format allows for us to give everyone in ASB a chance to win the tournament, while still rewarding those who rack up multiple badge victories.
Gym Leaders: Automatic invite to Round 1. First round byes may be allowed depending on the amount of participants.
8+ badges: Automatic invite to Round 1.
7 or less badges: May enter a qualifying tournament, the top (fill in number of winners) are entered into the main tournament.
This type of format allows for us to give everyone in ASB a chance to win the tournament, while still rewarding those who rack up multiple badge victories.
If a gym leader changes (due to W/L, activity, whatever), do previous winners of that badge have to rebattle the gym?
EDIT: Throwing my hat in the ring for Fighting as soon as I evolve my mons.
EDIT 2: Screw the tourney then. I'll hide it for anyone who wants to view it later.
There will be no tourney like in the Anime. We will have a stationary 13 Gyms, 4 Elite Four, and some sort of Champion system. A badge from a gym is a badge, no matter who the GL happens to be at a certain moment in time. Also, while we appreciate your suggestions, us Moderators have the gym system all worked out, and we will not be changing major parts of the Gym League.
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