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Volcarona
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
If you're using volcorona on a weatherless team, no. If you're using volcorona on a sun team, then yes. If you're worried about Tyranitar and Politoed switching in to ruin your day, then you should be worried more about heatran switching in to revenge your Sword's Dance Scizor, or CB Scizor switching in to kill Terrakion. But thanks to team preview, you'll probably avoid setting up with said pokemon when you know your opponent has counters waiting for you.
Which is still ridiculously predictable, and the opponent is going to be extra careful not to lose SpDefensive Heatran to Dugtrio. And even still, with Dugtrio's frailty, uninvested Heatran's attacks are still taking him down to an HP where all he will have gotten to do is counter Heatran.
Again, why would you run Dugtrio to counter one Heatran set when you could run a good Pokémon that will counter them all decently and still help the team? Dugtrio is NOT a great Heatran counter. Why don't you just use something like Vaporeon if you're worried? I mean, I'm all for lower tier Pokémon in OU, but Dugtrio just DOES NOT fill the role you're trying to shove him into.
Air balloon.
BUT HE NEARLY ALWAYS TAKES ONE UNLESS YOU FODDER SOMETHING MR. CAPS LOCK. As well as if he has his Air Balloon.
He doesn't guarantee Heatran's death. Odds are there are Stealth Rocks. Your Sash is broken, you die in one hit from offensive Heatran. Only somewhat counters defensive Heatran.
Dugtrio specifically for your Heatran counter is just sitting around, waiting for a chance to hit Heatran, effectively wasting space. And for what? To possibly get a kamikaze kill on Heatran if your super obvious strategy doesn't get out-predicted.
The Dugtrio + real Heatran counter sounds good, but again, I think you're wasting space with Dugtrio since it can't do anything else but wait for Heatran; otherwise the whole reason for bringing it is compromised. With all the work that it takes and the space it wastes, I think you're better off just dealing with Heatran with real counters.
Now talk about Volcarona again.
As you wish.
Personally I've found Volcorona very effective in this metagame, and not because I've been using it; it's given me a really tough time when making teams considering that it really only needs one QD boost, especially to Speed. It can just use Fiery Dance boosts from there and just rip everything apart. Its two STABs are just really really good, with the only things really taking hits from Volcarona being Jellicent and Specially Defensive Heatran (offensive heatran doesn't stand a chance since it can't hit you hard enough and it takes nautral damage from HP Rock). Heatran is taken care of by CB Dugtrio (he's not that bad but we've already had this discussion), while Jellicent does squat to you in the sun.
That being said when I have used Volcarona Rapid Spin has been a necessity, and I usually fine Donphan to be one of the better spinners for sun. He takes care of any Tyranitar not carrying Ice Beam (I've seen less and less these days due to people playing cautiously with Gliscor), and it also sets up SR on the opponent's side too, which is just the icing on the cake. In all honesty though it's probably better to just have something that really takes care of Tyranitar nicely on a sun team (see: Dugtrio discussion).
edit: jeez HP Rock people, Volc now eats up offensive heatran, and the last post just drove the point of using duggy with volc *again*. T_T
Personally I've found Volcorona very effective in this metagame, and not because I've been using it; it's given me a really tough time when making teams considering that it really only needs one QD boost, especially to Speed. It can just use Fiery Dance boosts from there and just rip everything apart. Its two STABs are just really really good, with the only things really taking hits from Volcarona being Jellicent and Specially Defensive Heatran (offensive heatran doesn't stand a chance since it can't hit you hard enough and it takes nautral damage from HP Rock). Heatran is taken care of by CB Dugtrio (he's not that bad but we've already had this discussion), while Jellicent does squat to you in the sun.
That being said when I have used Volcarona Rapid Spin has been a necessity, and I usually fine Donphan to be one of the better spinners for sun. He takes care of any Tyranitar not carrying Ice Beam (I've seen less and less these days due to people playing cautiously with Gliscor), and it also sets up SR on the opponent's side too, which is just the icing on the cake. In all honesty though it's probably better to just have something that really takes care of Tyranitar nicely on a sun team (see: Dugtrio discussion).
edit: jeez HP Rock people, Volc now eats up offensive heatran, and the last post just drove the point of using duggy with volc *again*. T_T
it dies to offensive balloon heatran? okay then. now volcarona can set up in front of its face. happy? that was the whole point of dugtrio. help volcarona sweep. offensive heatran Is no problem for volcarona. so stop talking about offensive heatran.
im just talking about DEFENSIVE HEATRAN. (no defensive heatran runs air balloon)
im just talking about DEFENSIVE HEATRAN. (no defensive heatran runs air balloon)
So, assuming you actually manage to catch Heatran with this extremely obvious strategy, you're saying Dugtrio makes for good death fodder to get Volcarona in and it can't kill Heatran. The best you've got is Memento, which you didn't bring up at all, but is useless as Heatran is going to switch out when Volcarona comes in regardless of its stats. Dugtrio is unecessary and Volcarona should just come in on its own.
But you said to talk about against defensive Heatran so:
Uninvested Heatran hits Dugtrio for about 68%-81% damage on the switch in with Lava Plume. 30% chance to burn. Max attack EQ has less than 10% chance of OHKOing Heatran with 252 HP with a burn, so there's a decent chance you still won't take down Heatran, and even if you do, you've got a crippled Dugtrio that did ONE thing for your team (again, assuming you even manage to pull it off when it is so glaringly obvious). It is not the perfect Heatran killer you're making it out to be, and it is not good for a primary Heatran counter. It surely can be used, but it isn't necessarily worth it or all that valuable.
Volcarona really does well enough against Heatran on its own if it doesn't have Roar.
Do people invest in Speed much? I usually don't bother, but put enough in so as long as I have two Quiver Dances I can outspeed most of the metagame. What I save on speed I stick in bulk.
Which reminds me how ridiculously this pokemon is designed. It's two best STAB options work perfectly with Quiver Dance - Fiery Dance raises your special attack, Bug Buzz can lower special defense. Flame Body then covers the other side of the spectrum, and in some circumstances can put a spanner in the works of an opponent aiming to take advantage of frail defense. If it weren't for Rock moves this thing would rape.
Which reminds me how ridiculously this pokemon is designed. It's two best STAB options work perfectly with Quiver Dance - Fiery Dance raises your special attack, Bug Buzz can lower special defense. Flame Body then covers the other side of the spectrum, and in some circumstances can put a spanner in the works of an opponent aiming to take advantage of frail defense. If it weren't for Rock moves this thing would rape.
Umm... What are you talking about..?
As I said a million times, dugtrio is NOT SWITCHING INTO AN ATTACK. it predicts a heatean switch-in, does a double switch and OUTSPEEDS AND KOes. No need for taking a lava plume with a chance of a burn. Hell no. It out speeds and ohkoes.
On my sun teams, I find it VERY EASY to predict tyranitar and heatran switchins. Maybe it's just me. Dugtrio is a godsend for some sun teams. Don't hate on dugtrio.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about Dugtrio as a Volcarona supporter, rather than an end-all Heatran counter; he's supposed to come in only when the opponent Heatran prevents Volcorona from setting up, that is, when it's specially defensive, rather than to stop whatever Heatran with whatever set all the time even if Volcorona could already handle it.
Then he should have made that more clear. I have no problem with Dugtrio, and occasionally it helps, but it doesn't excel the way he says it does and it isn't the guaranteed Heatran KO he's said it is.
And do you have any idea how difficult it is to lure out Heatran while Dugtrio is still alive? If anything, you're getting lured out and double-switched on is the only thing you can say is probable there. I'm talking about Dugtrio taking an attack because unlike you I'm being realistic. If you're serious, then you're saying that Dugtrio is good only when the stars align and your opponent happens to have specially defensive Heatran AND gets out-predicted by an obvious strategy.
It's one thing to say Dugtrio helps Sun teams, it's another to claim it always kills Heatran like you did originally. Dugtrio is an option that is rarely effective and is unreliable (in fact, there's a warstory on this page where Dugtrio fails miserably). It is a questionable partner at best, and should by no means be advertised as the amazing Pokémon you were making it out to be.
Of course it works beautifully at full health, at the perfect time, in the perfect situation, etc. like you said, but doesn't everything. You have to be realistic about Dugtrio's situation, and the truth is, there are other, probably more viable ways to help Volcarona (and a sun team).
no, dugtrio is really good on sun teams full stop. if there is an opposing heatran and the opponent plays smart and never brings it out then you don't have to deal with heatran coming out ever? you can run a strategy whereby you run something that is countered by heatran and force it into play and sac aforementioned mon to it, then revenge with dug, leaving volc clear. obviously this is a pretty convoluted, unfleshed out strategy, but you get my gist. if there is a heatran and you have a dugtrio, either dugtrio will get to kill it or the opponent will be pressured into not bringing out heatran.
both are things which you can abuse.
speaking of volc, fucking + 1 LO hp ice OHKOs dragonite through multiscale, which one would assume to be a solid one time check, jesus christ. beast 'mon
both are things which you can abuse.
speaking of volc, fucking + 1 LO hp ice OHKOs dragonite through multiscale, which one would assume to be a solid one time check, jesus christ. beast 'mon
I still prefer HP Ground/ HP Electric. Better overall coverage.
I'm glad you brought this up, as it's something I've been wondering as well. I forgot where I read it, somewhere in rate my team I think, but it was stated that bulky Volcarona (Morning Sun one, not chesto rest) should actually run 24 speed Evs instead of the zero that the main analysis states so you can outspeed Starmie after one Quiver Dance. As for where you're getting the 24 EVs from, you take it from HP and the not needed EVs in Special Defense. I'm assuming that still allows you to hit an optimal SR number for HP. Is this correct or am I mistaken?
The morning sun set is ruined by thunderwave even if volcarona gets 6 quiver dances in. Chestorest is way better even with 0 Speed EVs.
Umm what?
Morning sun has enough speed EVs after 1 quiver dance to outspeed most thunder waver's (bar thundurus) and ko them. Anyways, the standard bulky Volca spread should be 232 hp/252 def/24 spe.
All I'm saying is that if volcarona gets thunder waved, the chestorest works better than the morning sun set
Alright, I appreciate the insight.
I don't get it. When you're running bulky morning sun versions you should be running Lum with it to stop that odd Thunder wave or Toxic that's going to hinder your sweep. If you're not running lum what the hell are you running that means a Thunder Wave means your sweep is over? Also backing up 24 speed EVs it is super helpful