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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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F*** cacturne, free garchomp! Also sand veil and snow cloak are jokes as well
In my opinion one ou poke takes priority over The whole of the RU tier.
Also has anyone else been completely destroyed by Wobbuffet on a few occasions?
There's nothing wrong with doing what needs to be done. I'm quite sure most people disagreed with William Wilberforce when he proposed for slavery to be outlawed way back in the 18th century.
Excadrill doesn't need +2 to sweep most things on a pure offensive team, and even, it can revenge kill most of them.
Exadrill with SR support can kill almost anything after a proper switch and a SD setup, also most teams loose one or two pokes do to exadrill switching to pokemon such Latios to face Loom so there's that too. Also the part about the extinction of Hyper Offensive teams, totally true, because such teams are torn between removing SR, removing weather or removing Exadrill, and that alone could end costing half the team.
Ban Sand Stream + Sand Rush. Sand teams won't die, they'll just use Landrous instead.
Also applying for special app, if it's accepted I'll post my nomination list as well..
Ban Sand Stream + Sand Rush. Sand teams won't die, they'll just use Landrous instead.
Also applying for special app, if it's accepted I'll post my nomination list as well..
Is there some unwritten law that says that Hyper Offensive non-weather teams HAVE to be viable? Or that Scarfers HAVE to be viable? Seriously, this is competitive play, if something doesn't work, then don't use it, simple as that.
This "play to ban" mentality smogon has been showing lately is seriously getting on my nerves.
This "play to ban" mentality smogon has been showing lately is seriously getting on my nerves.
The issue isn't that the metagame stops it from being viable.
It's that Excadrill, with minimal support [Switching in Tyranitar at some point], can not only render two playstyles useless, but also does a massive number on... basically any team that's not carrying Gliscor.
Even Skarmory is shaky, as it will get worn down, especially if it WW's in something it can't Roost on.
Honestly, the comparison to the Gen UU Yanmega is pretty accurate.
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As for the Sand Veil debarcle... isn't bannng Sand Veil to save Garchomp pointless? Garchomp gets soft banned under that. Banning Sand Veil would also soft-ban Cacturne who gets useage in the lower teirs, while it still doesn't free Garchomp until his Dream World Ability exists.
Not to mention an ability is only banned if it's broken on everything that has it. Note Swift Swim itself wasn't banned, and note Blaziken.
Cacturne and Sandslash are not broken. Garchomp's staying where he is for the forseable future. Garchomp is broken because of Sand Veil + Everything else Garchomp is.
Meanwhile, you can't really compare Sand Veil and Brightpowder/Insense.
Those two items exist for the sole purpose of introduceing more hax into the game. You chose to introduce that hax.
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And, I'm amazed people are seriously nominateing No Suspects. The OU metagame is incredibly centralised, need I bring up Gastrodon again? Although, part of it could be people wanting to see what the Thunderus-less meta is like.
Pretty much to satisfy everyone, and because creating a clear skies teir would create a host of new underused tiers that everyone will abandon due to boredom, I suggest the following, hitting multiple birds with one stone:
Ban Auto weather abilities in OU: Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Drought and Drizzle.
That's it, if someone wants to set rain dance with damp rock and then bring in swift swimmers, or abuse snow veil and the like after using hail, so be it. The point is that it requires effort and an actual turn to set up weather and then having to maintain it later on as opposed to...doing nothing at all. Also the fact that Cloud Nine is gimped and given to utterly useless pokemon in OU supports this.
Presto, no more Excadrill nominations, no more suggestions to ban Sand Stream + Sand Rush, etc.
As for banning D-Nite, Thundrus and Volca along with the rest, it makes me laugh and I won't bother talking about it.
Ban Auto weather abilities in OU: Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Drought and Drizzle.
That's it, if someone wants to set rain dance with damp rock and then bring in swift swimmers, or abuse snow veil and the like after using hail, so be it. The point is that it requires effort and an actual turn to set up weather and then having to maintain it later on as opposed to...doing nothing at all. Also the fact that Cloud Nine is gimped and given to utterly useless pokemon in OU supports this.
Presto, no more Excadrill nominations, no more suggestions to ban Sand Stream + Sand Rush, etc.
As for banning D-Nite, Thundrus and Volca along with the rest, it makes me laugh and I won't bother talking about it.
The fact that you actually made voting requirements makes me laugh too and you don't see me talking about it either. </cheap shot>
I'm just messing with you. While I don't exactly agree with any of the nominations save for Pocket's or perhaps Blue_Star's (if only for dragonite), it doesn't make much sense to whine about it. Just wait for the vote and vote for no ban on those who you truly think do not have a great negative effect on the metagame.
I'm just messing with you. While I don't exactly agree with any of the nominations save for Pocket's or perhaps Blue_Star's (if only for dragonite), it doesn't make much sense to whine about it. Just wait for the vote and vote for no ban on those who you truly think do not have a great negative effect on the metagame.
yes you cant compare them, sand veil has double the evasion boost and leaves you free to hold an item such as leftovers to increase your chances of yielding a miss
Also i find it funny how one of the noms for volc comments on its great typing, what typing? the one that is 4x weak to sr and is resisted by every fire type and a couple of other pokes that can set up on it?
edit: Dragonite is not broken, people have problems due to underpreparing their team for it, it should only get one dragon dance max unless you are stupid at which point you revenge it with a scarfer, priority or excadrill, if you are not carrying these then that is your fault
I'm surprised that people are bringing up combo bans. Specifically Pokemon + Ability bans.
In the UU suspect thread, Heysup's been supporting for Froslass + Snow Warning, since Froslass is only broken in Hail.
Then there's ala, nominating Manaphy + Drizzle clause to bring Manaphy back in OU!
These nominations makes me want to nominate Garchomp + Sandstream just for kicks, because well, Garchomp is only broken when moves miss it. However, the OP explicitly states NOT to nominate Pokemon + Ability bans :/
In the UU suspect thread, Heysup's been supporting for Froslass + Snow Warning, since Froslass is only broken in Hail.
Then there's ala, nominating Manaphy + Drizzle clause to bring Manaphy back in OU!
These nominations makes me want to nominate Garchomp + Sandstream just for kicks, because well, Garchomp is only broken when moves miss it. However, the OP explicitly states NOT to nominate Pokemon + Ability bans :/
DPPt was not about Heatran at all. You can seriously counter that thing without looking. It's #1 because it's one of essentially only two good Fire types, something we really needed in OU. No one was clamoring for counters because quite frankly, it's easy as shit to check no matter what set it had. DPPt was about entry hazards and keeping them up so that you can either sweep or stall out the opposing team. Heatran no doubt played a role in both of those. But without Heatran, it's either Infernape on every team or we send Jirachi to Ubers.
@ Pocket: I should probably go debate with him about that, but debating with Heysup takes a lot of energy. Single-Pokemon saves are always fruitless because a) the Pokemon itself is never valuable enough to the metagame to warrant that save and b) it opens the floor for more. Drizzle was a huge deal. Some players were afraid of Sand (Excadrill), so they wanted to preserve it for a homeostatic weather metagame. If we didn't stop at Drizzle and Swift Swim, there would be no need for an Uber tier since we could just balance the entire game. At which point do we stop and say, "This isn't Pokemon"?
Honestly banning weather is dumb. Thats pretty much saying I use non-weather and I cant handle weather so ban it.
On excadrill, he's really not that broken. Sure he has the potential to make a comeback win, but by now he has many mons that can check him not to mention the many gimmicks that people use.
On D-nite, again he's not broken, but indeed a game changer. I really don't get how teams cant combat him. I mean stealth rock is pretty much on EVERY team, and SS is running wild....
Also its not up to us to ban things. The males/females who got voting reqs decide. I pretty sure they hold what gets banned now. We just have to watch. also this is coming from a person who haven't played since getting vote reqs in the 3rd round, but whats change since then.....Garchomp?
On excadrill, he's really not that broken. Sure he has the potential to make a comeback win, but by now he has many mons that can check him not to mention the many gimmicks that people use.
On D-nite, again he's not broken, but indeed a game changer. I really don't get how teams cant combat him. I mean stealth rock is pretty much on EVERY team, and SS is running wild....
Also its not up to us to ban things. The males/females who got voting reqs decide. I pretty sure they hold what gets banned now. We just have to watch. also this is coming from a person who haven't played since getting vote reqs in the 3rd round, but whats change since then.....Garchomp?
I don't agree that Volcarona is uber-worthy, but it comes pretty close with its power and Quiver Dance.
I am slightly surprised that some people are nominating Baton Pass, but I can see how it can be a problem with the introduction of Espeon, and BP teams can most likely set up on many teams that usually don't prepare for them. I happened to carry Taunt + Dragon Tail Gyarados, so that usually has a good chance of disrupting BP chains.
I am slightly surprised that some people are nominating Baton Pass, but I can see how it can be a problem with the introduction of Espeon, and BP teams can most likely set up on many teams that usually don't prepare for them. I happened to carry Taunt + Dragon Tail Gyarados, so that usually has a good chance of disrupting BP chains.
I find it very unsettling that people are getting more and more complex with their bans. Baton Pass on more than two pokemon on a team is probably the most obscure and odd nomination I've seen. On top of that I'm really just baffled that people want to ban a move as a whole: shell smash. Haven't we moved past two rounds ago and have found that smash passing is hardly the best strategy? I haven't faced a smash pass team in forever and I haven't faced a competent baton pass team in ages. Albeit i haven't been laddering as much as I used to, but it is still very uncomfortable.
The volcarona nominations are also very confusing to me
The volcarona nominations are also very confusing to me
Yes I hardly understand why people are nominating Volca. I mean seriously I love the dude and never dropped him from my team, but I can't pull him off at the begining of the match and IF he sweeps, its because I've spinned, ice'd nites, fished out waters, boiled blissey's and finished off priorities before I pull him out.
QD is awesome, but that's the extent of it. I'm about to swear that ALL of those who have nominated Volca never used him and were at the receiving end of one or two of his sweeps.
Use it, and tell me its invincible. I have.
I only had trouble with Baton Passing when the Venomoth + Smeargle with sleep powder/spore came about. I had only one lum berry user in the team, and both of those mons had sashes, you figure that out. By the time I had an appropriate pokemon to face them they already got 2 to 3 boosts.
The reason I want auto-weather banned is because of fairness and consistent logic, you want to give everyone using any kind of strategy to succeed, and consistency lying in that swift swimmers need to have a rain dance before they can be used, then sand rushers have to be put the same task. Also, its a hell of a lot cleaner then banning Pokemon or ability + ability combos.
You want your sand rush excadrill? Fine, use sand storm. You want to have a Vensaur sweep, use drought, etc. Auto weather belongs in Ubers where Kygore and Groundon lie.
QD is awesome, but that's the extent of it. I'm about to swear that ALL of those who have nominated Volca never used him and were at the receiving end of one or two of his sweeps.
Use it, and tell me its invincible. I have.
I only had trouble with Baton Passing when the Venomoth + Smeargle with sleep powder/spore came about. I had only one lum berry user in the team, and both of those mons had sashes, you figure that out. By the time I had an appropriate pokemon to face them they already got 2 to 3 boosts.
The reason I want auto-weather banned is because of fairness and consistent logic, you want to give everyone using any kind of strategy to succeed, and consistency lying in that swift swimmers need to have a rain dance before they can be used, then sand rushers have to be put the same task. Also, its a hell of a lot cleaner then banning Pokemon or ability + ability combos.
You want your sand rush excadrill? Fine, use sand storm. You want to have a Vensaur sweep, use drought, etc. Auto weather belongs in Ubers where Kygore and Groundon lie.
I'll be posting my nominations later, but there is something I find interesting.
The Volcarona nominations seem strange, but the large majority mention how weather plays a big role in allowing it to take down its checks, namely Gyara, DNite, Mence, etc. Players also mention that requiring a scarfer to check it is a bad thing and...in this metagame, it is simply because Excadrill renders scarfers relatively moot. So is Volcarona the issue, is it the weather behind it, or is it broken as a side effect of the elimination of one of the best strategies for checking it?
Another nomination that caught my eye was the Manaphy + Drizzle ban. I don't like complex bans, but he did have a point in that Manaphy itself was never tested without the backup provided by the swift swimmers, so I don't think retesting it would be a bad idea (not the complex ban, just Manaphy itself). It does provide the role of a relatively bulky water type capable of boosting its SpA. I'm talking about the TG set. I'd imagine that the RainRest CM set would still be quite effective, but it has difficulty setting up in the face of Latios, SubCM Latias, Ferrothorn, CM/SD Virizion, NP Celebi, etc. That and...it is yet another set that hinges much of its success on weather.
Excadrill's nominations seem much more solid this round now that Adamant LO has become popular, and I'd be much more supportive of its ban. I would like to point out, however, that people question the "unwritten rule that hyper offense must be preserved," but ignore the fact that DrizzleSwim was put into effect to preserve an entire playstyle.
It'll be interesting to see where this round goes.
The Volcarona nominations seem strange, but the large majority mention how weather plays a big role in allowing it to take down its checks, namely Gyara, DNite, Mence, etc. Players also mention that requiring a scarfer to check it is a bad thing and...in this metagame, it is simply because Excadrill renders scarfers relatively moot. So is Volcarona the issue, is it the weather behind it, or is it broken as a side effect of the elimination of one of the best strategies for checking it?
Another nomination that caught my eye was the Manaphy + Drizzle ban. I don't like complex bans, but he did have a point in that Manaphy itself was never tested without the backup provided by the swift swimmers, so I don't think retesting it would be a bad idea (not the complex ban, just Manaphy itself). It does provide the role of a relatively bulky water type capable of boosting its SpA. I'm talking about the TG set. I'd imagine that the RainRest CM set would still be quite effective, but it has difficulty setting up in the face of Latios, SubCM Latias, Ferrothorn, CM/SD Virizion, NP Celebi, etc. That and...it is yet another set that hinges much of its success on weather.
Excadrill's nominations seem much more solid this round now that Adamant LO has become popular, and I'd be much more supportive of its ban. I would like to point out, however, that people question the "unwritten rule that hyper offense must be preserved," but ignore the fact that DrizzleSwim was put into effect to preserve an entire playstyle.
It'll be interesting to see where this round goes.
The one attack that varies among Excadrills is X-Scissor/Return/Brick Break/Rapid Spin. Depending on what move it runs, it will always have certain pokemon that can counter/check it. Rapid Spin doesn't completely destroy stall; it's usually on Adamant LO and will wear it down.
Plus it's not exactly like Blaziken either, where it had two extremely strong attacking moves, high speed, and SD. All of its attacks not named Earthquake are surprisingly not that strong. I mean Rock Slide can't even OHKO a frail pokemon like Gengar.
Plus it's not exactly like Blaziken either, where it had two extremely strong attacking moves, high speed, and SD. All of its attacks not named Earthquake are surprisingly not that strong. I mean Rock Slide can't even OHKO a frail pokemon like Gengar.
Volcarona can take a badly played game that under normal circumstances would be a well deserved loss into a comeback win under Sun. I've done it many, many times.
I've already explained Volcarona (not a really good reason but people will complain and try to ban just about everything they don't want to have to prepare for) and btw, the slippery slope argument was partially right with the Aldaron Proposal, we haven't banned anything under complex rules since (thank <insert deity here>) but people will always ask for one when its on the banlist. Sometimes you forget that some people here are probably 11 years old.
Stoutland's not broken, Excadrill has other properties that can push it over the top. And just because everybody carries one of the 5 hard counters to Excadrill doesn't make it a fallacy to nominate it for Ubers. If you don't run weather, a fast scarfer (really fast), or Gliscor/Skarm/Bronzong, or priority you're kinda boned (then again, if you're not running one of those things then Excadrill's probably not your only issue, j/s). I don't think Excadrill's broken but I really wouldn't mind seeing it gone.
Balloon Chandelure can actually survive Jolly Balloon Drill's Rock Slide...and IIRC, the same Excadrill fails to OHKO Max/Max Volc with Rock Slide.
Kinda sad ._.
ChestoRest Volcarona, the most dangerous variant, can basically 6-0 any team without Dragonite, Gyarados, Terrakion, or Salamence as long as you keep Sun, Neutral Weather, or even Rain up. It's amazing that Volcarona can easily sweep Rain Stall simply because Rain Stall can't really hurt it and then it's at +6/+6/+6.
To be frank, rainstall is set-up bait. I have no problems bringing in my Celebi on Chansey, Tentacruel, Politoed, and Ferrothorn; start setting up CMs and a Substitute, and then proceed to baton pass to my special sweeper.
I'm pretty sure the same case applies to ChestoRest Volcarona and anything else that doesn't fall victim to the toxic-stalling. Seriously, the traditional Rain Stall team needs a phazer, which undisputed Rain Man lacks (Perish Song sux). This also explains why M_Dragon's RainStall works so frighteningly well.
ChestoRest Volcarona isn't the most dangerous variant, imo, as long as you don't depend on status to bring it down. I personally feel Volcarona needs Substitute or Hidden Power for either protection from revenge-killing or for buffed coverage to be truly threatening.
I'm pretty sure the same case applies to ChestoRest Volcarona and anything else that doesn't fall victim to the toxic-stalling. Seriously, the traditional Rain Stall team needs a phazer, which undisputed Rain Man lacks (Perish Song sux). This also explains why M_Dragon's RainStall works so frighteningly well.
ChestoRest Volcarona isn't the most dangerous variant, imo, as long as you don't depend on status to bring it down. I personally feel Volcarona needs Substitute or Hidden Power for either protection from revenge-killing or for buffed coverage to be truly threatening.
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