Rushdown will still be prevalent (since teleports still exist), but will still be affected because of the nerf to airdashing. It makes me sad since I forgot that Morrigan's airdash is already ass, but her assist is too vital to my new team (Strange/Vergil/Morrigan).
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General Fighting Game Discussion
- Thread starter lilyhollow
- Start date
Is Strange looking really meter-intensive or something (I can understand Vergil at least. Super excited for him too, hopefully I can fit him on my team)?
I don't think he'll be using alot of meter, but I just think Vergil will need just that much meter. From what I saw, Vergil doesn't seem to gain much meter from his combos, and he doesn't gain meter while either of his lvl 1 hypers are active. I think Strange would be a pretty good battery/point character though.
I'd honestly rather have a "real" assist. I feel like the meter-gaining assists are only useful when you really really need meter (Phoenix mostly).
But maybe meter-building is lessened in Ultimate (X-factor being worse makes meter more important too, I guess)? Shrug.
But maybe meter-building is lessened in Ultimate (X-factor being worse makes meter more important too, I guess)? Shrug.
They said it was lessened to 90% of what it was in Vanilla (or something like that).
Well that doesn't seem too bad then. Pretty sure meter-building assists will keep being gimmicky.
Just adding to what Raikage said, one thing that can help with hitconfirms is using moves that cancel into themselves. You can throw 5A>5A>5A all day, and if one hits, so will the second one (most of the time). And while you can't throw out 5B on reaction to one 5A landing, you can with two 5As landing. You obviously don't want to be so predictable as to do that every time, but it helps sometimes especially when you are first learning to throw blockstrings.
One other thing to remember is proration: you have probably noticed that the same move does less damage if it's the 10th hit of a combo as opposed to if it lands raw. Each move lowers the damage of subsequent moves in the same combo by some fixed percentage (with a few exceptions). Generally, your fast, safe moves like 5A prorate poorly. I'm not sure about CT, but in CS2 Ragna actually does less damage with 5A>5B>5C>Hell's Fang>followup than with 5B>5C>Hell's Fang>followup; a whole extra hit actually lowers the total damage, because it prorates the rest of the combo so poorly. So be cautious about starting too many of your combos with 5A and 2A, as it will hurt your damage. That's not a huge priority at first, though. Work on getting hitconfirms consistently before you start fiddling with things like that.
One other thing to remember is proration: you have probably noticed that the same move does less damage if it's the 10th hit of a combo as opposed to if it lands raw. Each move lowers the damage of subsequent moves in the same combo by some fixed percentage (with a few exceptions). Generally, your fast, safe moves like 5A prorate poorly. I'm not sure about CT, but in CS2 Ragna actually does less damage with 5A>5B>5C>Hell's Fang>followup than with 5B>5C>Hell's Fang>followup; a whole extra hit actually lowers the total damage, because it prorates the rest of the combo so poorly. So be cautious about starting too many of your combos with 5A and 2A, as it will hurt your damage. That's not a huge priority at first, though. Work on getting hitconfirms consistently before you start fiddling with things like that.
For those who didn't see it, Maximilian uploaded his new 'Assist Me!' vid.
I'm finally a little less busy this weekend, so anyone who wants to play some games just add me, my PSN is Thiediev. I mainly play MvC3, but I'm up for BBCS2/AE/HD Remix too, shrug.
Actually, where is that IRC channel or whatever? maybe that would be nice as a quick and easy way to ask people if they want to play and stuff.
Actually, where is that IRC channel or whatever? maybe that would be nice as a quick and easy way to ask people if they want to play and stuff.
I play AE all the time now, will change when UMVC3/Extend comes out. Should get some games in ;D
#fighting
So, I've been working on blockstrings and hitconfirms.
Only problem now? Most of Jin's combo starters have questionable recovery (5B, 6B, 3C, etc). And by starting with an A move, as long as the combo is longer than 2A > 5A > 5B (2) > 5C > 2C > 214B, the damage output will be CONSIDERABLY less. I could circumvent this with more combos, but most of the time after finishing one, starting another isn't too easy (the AI usually either runs away or starts Countering my shit) unless I'm in the corner where I can just 6C > 6D > small air combo > land > recombo.
I also notice that because his EX moves are considerably better for comboing, this means I don't pull off any DDs as often (granted I know about using Neutral Throw + Hiyoku Getsumei to finish games), should I be more aggressive with Rapid Cancelling?
And what's the suggested approach to giving/taking Bursts?
What server?
Zystral, the first thing to know is that Jin does not normally do combos with extremely high damage. You want to keep up the pressure and get them to the corner. That's where he gets most of his damage. Hitconfirming a 2A into 2.5-3k is fine. He will rarely do more than 4k without meter, even in the corner.
One thing you can try is adding the 6A overhead to your mixup. I didn't use Jin in CT (that's what you're playing, right?), but I believe that back then 6A could combo into Sekkajin; it launches after 8 hits and can go into various things, including Hiyoku Getsumei. Since 6A is an overhead, you can pick up hits when you mix it up with 2B and stuff.
You are correct that Jin uses fewer Distortion Drives than most characters. 214D in particular is a fantastic move that allows for many combo options. One important thing is that Jin's EX moves can freeze the opponent for a second time within the combo, which his normal drives cannot (usually) do. For instance, in CS2, 5D>214D is a crucial combo opener. I know that there is some stuff like that in CT also; I think that 6A>214D>6C>stuff works, for example.
I would not worry about RCing that much yet. Get more comfortable with your pressure game. At this point for you, I think that you'll get more mileage out of spending your meter on EX moves and the occasional Hiyoku Getsumei.
What do you mean about giving/taking bursts? Do you mean when should you use them and how should you bait them? Baiting bursts is related to frame trapping, which is a lot more advanced. Basically, you leave small, strategically-placed gaps in your combos in order to get the opponent to make a mistake. I don't know any frame traps or standard burst baits for CT, so your best bet would be to look for an archived thread on dustloop.com or somewhere. As for when to use bursts, it should basically be any time 1)the opponent hitconfirms a combo, 2)the current state of the health bars is such that you think you can win if you burst, 3)the state of the health bars if you allow this combo to finish is such that it will be hard for you to win, and 4)the combo is not burst-safe (for instance, some of Nu/Lambda's drive combos may be able to continue even after you burst). You can also gold burst. I normally only do that if I think I can win the round with that combo; some players are more aggressive with gold bursting.
One thing you can try is adding the 6A overhead to your mixup. I didn't use Jin in CT (that's what you're playing, right?), but I believe that back then 6A could combo into Sekkajin; it launches after 8 hits and can go into various things, including Hiyoku Getsumei. Since 6A is an overhead, you can pick up hits when you mix it up with 2B and stuff.
You are correct that Jin uses fewer Distortion Drives than most characters. 214D in particular is a fantastic move that allows for many combo options. One important thing is that Jin's EX moves can freeze the opponent for a second time within the combo, which his normal drives cannot (usually) do. For instance, in CS2, 5D>214D is a crucial combo opener. I know that there is some stuff like that in CT also; I think that 6A>214D>6C>stuff works, for example.
I would not worry about RCing that much yet. Get more comfortable with your pressure game. At this point for you, I think that you'll get more mileage out of spending your meter on EX moves and the occasional Hiyoku Getsumei.
What do you mean about giving/taking bursts? Do you mean when should you use them and how should you bait them? Baiting bursts is related to frame trapping, which is a lot more advanced. Basically, you leave small, strategically-placed gaps in your combos in order to get the opponent to make a mistake. I don't know any frame traps or standard burst baits for CT, so your best bet would be to look for an archived thread on dustloop.com or somewhere. As for when to use bursts, it should basically be any time 1)the opponent hitconfirms a combo, 2)the current state of the health bars is such that you think you can win if you burst, 3)the state of the health bars if you allow this combo to finish is such that it will be hard for you to win, and 4)the combo is not burst-safe (for instance, some of Nu/Lambda's drive combos may be able to continue even after you burst). You can also gold burst. I normally only do that if I think I can win the round with that combo; some players are more aggressive with gold bursting.
A frame trap is leaving a gap in a blockstring; in a combo it's a reset. Frame traps really aren't that tough to figure out, especially if we're talking about CT Jin, who can just do 5b -> 5b, which under CT's guard bar system is especially irritating. You can also do 6c -> 623b/c/d, but that's more of a gimmick and will eventually get you killed.
Baiting bursts in CT isn't even that big of a deal. Either they burst early and you laugh in their faces for being dumb, or they burst late and you can often just react to it.
Baiting bursts in CT isn't even that big of a deal. Either they burst early and you laugh in their faces for being dumb, or they burst late and you can often just react to it.
Right, when I said gaps in "combos" I didn't mean that the move had connected. I wasn't really trying to explain how to do a frame trap.
I will agree with you that they aren't that hard to do. Lists are easy to find of move sequences that leave small, favorable gaps. What I meant by "advanced" was just that they aren't that useful at low-level play. The AI cheats and often won't fall for them, and scrubby players just spam buttons while they're being hit, so you can repeatedly counterhit anything they try to do without much effort. Frame traps are only useful against other humans who have at least some knowledge of how to play. It's way, way down the list of what I'd suggest someone should learn when first trying to get good.
I didn't play CT competitively, so I guess there must be something I don't know about the burst mechanics. In CS2, placing a reset right at the optimal burst point of a BnB, and reading your opponent for whether they intend to burst that particular combo, in order to waste their burst and pick the combo right back up, is a hallmark of high level tournament play. It's one of the factors that separates merely excellent players from people who top 8 major events. If it's that easy in CT, then my bad.
Also, does 6C>623B really not red beat in CT like it does in CS2? How awful.
I will agree with you that they aren't that hard to do. Lists are easy to find of move sequences that leave small, favorable gaps. What I meant by "advanced" was just that they aren't that useful at low-level play. The AI cheats and often won't fall for them, and scrubby players just spam buttons while they're being hit, so you can repeatedly counterhit anything they try to do without much effort. Frame traps are only useful against other humans who have at least some knowledge of how to play. It's way, way down the list of what I'd suggest someone should learn when first trying to get good.
I didn't play CT competitively, so I guess there must be something I don't know about the burst mechanics. In CS2, placing a reset right at the optimal burst point of a BnB, and reading your opponent for whether they intend to burst that particular combo, in order to waste their burst and pick the combo right back up, is a hallmark of high level tournament play. It's one of the factors that separates merely excellent players from people who top 8 major events. If it's that easy in CT, then my bad.
Also, does 6C>623B really not red beat in CT like it does in CS2? How awful.
In CT, bursting causes you to take 50% more damage for the rest of the round. The consequence of this is that you rarely see early-round bursts. But bursts also become much slower when you have low health, which makes them pretty easy to bait. It's pretty... yeah.... >_>
And I was talking about 6C>623B as a frame trap. People like to mash after you 6C them, so you can catch them with uppercuts a lot.
And I was talking about 6C>623B as a frame trap. People like to mash after you 6C them, so you can catch them with uppercuts a lot.
Kristoph: irc.synirc.net @ #fighting
Right, so I should focus on doing lots of small combos as opposed to fewer big ones? I really don't like 6A, I haven't played CS, but from my experience, it's not only stupidly difficult to hit INTO 6A, but as far as I know I can't cancel out of it, and it has a horribly long recovery. I could just be C-mashing too late, but usually when I go from 6A into Sekkajin, they are too far away and the 8th hit whiffs.
Should I just be doing simple things such as 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B and Neutral Throw > C mash > 6C > 214C to get them into the corner and then starting pulling out longer combos then?
Right, so I should focus on doing lots of small combos as opposed to fewer big ones? I really don't like 6A, I haven't played CS, but from my experience, it's not only stupidly difficult to hit INTO 6A, but as far as I know I can't cancel out of it, and it has a horribly long recovery. I could just be C-mashing too late, but usually when I go from 6A into Sekkajin, they are too far away and the 8th hit whiffs.
Should I just be doing simple things such as 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B and Neutral Throw > C mash > 6C > 214C to get them into the corner and then starting pulling out longer combos then?
You won't normally combo into 6A. You will normally be using 6A as a surprise during your blockstring pressure, because it's an overhead (meaning that it will hit a crouching, blocking opponent). It's not something you'll do constantly, but it's a good way to get an opening sometimes.
As for which combos to use, I do think that you should stick to those smaller midscreen combos for now, trying to get most of your big damage in the corner. The mid and throw starter combos you suggest are fine, and a good low starter that works in CT is 2B>5B(both hits)>5C>2C>214B. There are certainly stronger midscreen combos you can try, though; if you find them easy to do, then by all means do them. One I found on Dustloop is this: 5B(both hits)>5C>jc>j.B(delay)>j.C(delay)>j.D>6C>dash cancel>5C>2C>hjc>j.B>j.C>jc>j.B>j.C. That's pretty hard, but it's meterless and does like 3.5k midscreen.
As for which combos to use, I do think that you should stick to those smaller midscreen combos for now, trying to get most of your big damage in the corner. The mid and throw starter combos you suggest are fine, and a good low starter that works in CT is 2B>5B(both hits)>5C>2C>214B. There are certainly stronger midscreen combos you can try, though; if you find them easy to do, then by all means do them. One I found on Dustloop is this: 5B(both hits)>5C>jc>j.B(delay)>j.C(delay)>j.D>6C>dash cancel>5C>2C>hjc>j.B>j.C>jc>j.B>j.C. That's pretty hard, but it's meterless and does like 3.5k midscreen.
What worries me is that 6A has such a long startup, so if I'm spamming 2A and 2B, and then suddenly go 5A 6A, won't they see the 6A coming and block high? or do I use 6A as a lure, let them block it and then go into a 2B > 5B >... combo?
Also I've been thinking about using the 5B > 5C > jc > JB > JC > JD > 6C combos, but rather than go for the dash-5C, I go from 6C > 2D > 6C > 214B.
And it's in the corner I do things such as 5B (2) > 5C > C mash > 6C > 6D > jc > JB > JC > jc > JC > 214D > (land) 2C > 623B?
So far my play experience has increased to this thusfar;
rather than going on all guns blazing to do mad combos, just work on attacking small but quickly until a hit lands, then bust out short combos to force them into the corner
once into the corner, start pulling longer combos while keeping pressure?
Thanks for all the help; it's been really useful. From here, I think a bit of practice should get me good enough to beat most of my local friends.
Also I've been thinking about using the 5B > 5C > jc > JB > JC > JD > 6C combos, but rather than go for the dash-5C, I go from 6C > 2D > 6C > 214B.
And it's in the corner I do things such as 5B (2) > 5C > C mash > 6C > 6D > jc > JB > JC > jc > JC > 214D > (land) 2C > 623B?
So far my play experience has increased to this thusfar;
rather than going on all guns blazing to do mad combos, just work on attacking small but quickly until a hit lands, then bust out short combos to force them into the corner
once into the corner, start pulling longer combos while keeping pressure?
Thanks for all the help; it's been really useful. From here, I think a bit of practice should get me good enough to beat most of my local friends.
I don't think 6C works there, does it? Unless they don't bother to shake out of the ice, at least. The dash-5C is nice because then you can go for another rep of the j.b > j.c > j.d into icecar, or you can do whiff j.a instead of j.c and try to go for a reset (you'll drop down and can do 2b, throw or overhead).Zystral said:
I know that 6A feels slow compared to your really fast attacks like 5A, but I assure you that it is quite difficult to block on reaction. If you do something like 5A>2A>2B>5A>6A, you will be really surprised by how often they stay crouching to block the second 5A and don't stand up in time to block the 6A. It works even better if you have done 5A>2A>5A>2A a couple of times, so they don't always expect an overhead every time you stand up.
Yes. This is a good description of how Jin plays. The one other thing I would add is that you have a really abusive anti-air game. One way besides blockstrings to get an opening is to use one of your 3 different types of DPs, your fast 5A, or the huge hitbox on j.C to get a counterhit on an airborne opponent and then follow up with an air BnB, an ice car, or some 236X and/or j.236X pressure.
Actually, that's the whole point of overheads. They can't be too fast, you're supposed to be able to react to most of them so that you can block. 6A's actually one of the fastest overheads in the game. Something like Rachel 4B is wayyyy slower. The slower start-up of overheads does mean that you can be hit out of them, but this will only happen if your opponent is mashing. If he is doing that then you'll know to frame-trap him next time.
Also, I don't think you can gatling 6A. If it's blocked you're minus frames and should probably start blocking.
Max posted his assist me for Pheonix Wright. Some pretty odd fighting style he has. Once he's in turnabout mode he's amazing, but I see he's a hard character to fit in a team. Tryna figure out what assist he can benefit from.
Jam Session or Doom Rocks or something? Just something that can keep people off while he collects evidence, shrug.
I feel like I'll be popping X-Factor right away with him. Kill a character as soon as possible to collect evidence, then just own people up in Turnabout mode. Or something.
I feel like I'll be popping X-Factor right away with him. Kill a character as soon as possible to collect evidence, then just own people up in Turnabout mode. Or something.
