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Project Mono-Type: Water

I really think Ludicolo warrants a spot, you can an offensive set with Rain Dish and use it's bulk and coverage > speed. Something like:

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Modes Nature [+SAtk -Atk]
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SAk / 184 Spe
-Leech Seed
-Giga Drain
-Hydro Pump
-Focus Blast

Toxicroak walls it pretty bad, but if you can get Leech Seed on it, it shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Gives him 222 speed, to outpace Adamant TTar (lol gen 3 speed tier!) since I hear DD tar is making a comeback? Maybe drop it to like 212 or 215.

Top contenders for a spot imo are:

Politoed, Gyarados, Tentacruel, Qwilfish, Quagsire, Rotom-W, Ludicolo, Empoleon and Starmie. They all offer something away from the archetype 'water-type' and each offer soemthing vital to a mono-water team..shame you can't use 9 mon in a team :(
 
Intimidate and Destiny Bond, Spikes, plus Aqua Jet in the Rain backed by decent Attack.. quite a bit!

I just thought of Low Kick Kabutops as another Ferrothorn lure, offers Rapid Spin/SR support too. We'll have to go with Battle Armor/Weak Armor. The latter could work well as a pseudo swift swim with some HP investment (is it even released yet? - actually scrap that Low Kick won't be available with Weak Armor...)
 
Qwilfish can Spike, Taunt, and Dbond. It hits harder on the physical side if you choose, and it also has Intimidate, a great ability.

I still like Rain Dish Pelipper, as it's very defensive on the physical side, it's immune to Ground, resistant to Fighting and Bug, and has 100% accurate STAB Hurricane. Rain Dish, Leftovers and Roost lets it last a long time, too.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Poliwrath lacks a solid STAB to OHKO Ferrothorn, while Power Whip is a clean OHKO in return.
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weeeee, making up calcs!

Power Whip vs 252/0 Poliwrath = 66% - 78%

Rayquaza_ said:
I agree that Sap Sipper Azumarill is great in a monowater team and should be your main counter to most grass types.
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I don't understand what Sap Sipper Azumarill actually does. You have 219 Atk - that's less than 0 Atk Gliscor. You can't lay hazards. You can't Roar/Whirlwind. To counter something you need to switch into it and threaten it, or regain momentum for your own team. Sap Sipper Azumarill does neither. If anything, Ferrothorn counters SS Azumarill because he can come in on anything (even Choice Band Superpower to an extent...averages around 50%) and lay hazards. It's a waste of a team slot. Forget about it.

As for how to go about beating Ferrothorn, I think the best option is to make sure he doesn't have too many easy switch ins - if he is to come in, make sure he's getting hit by a Rain boosted Specs Hydro Pump, Focus Blast/Punch, Superpower or if all else fails, Scald (a burned Ferrothorn is no problem). Anybody who has used a well-made Rain team will tell you that Ferrothorn struggles to switch in more than 2-3 times without being overwhelmed. That said, he's such a huge problem that I wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice something to put him in the kill range. Ferrothorn switches into your LO Vaporeon's Hydro Pump? Throw caution to the wind and blast him in the face again. Now he's on about 25% health. Maybe we lose Vaporeon in the process but eh, the opposing team came off worse in that exchange (depending on the team/situation obviously but you know what I'm getting at).

Secondly, make sure you have something that can actually switch-in. The number of Water-types that can switch into a STAB Power Whip is unsurprisingly quite slim. Tentacruel is an option - with Max HP, Max Defense, Leftovers and Rain Dish you only stand to lose about 23% of your health from eating a Power Whip. You can Spin away his hazards and lay Toxic Spikes, then go for a Scald burn...you might not win one-on-one though. Gyarados can switch in but he'll need to have Taunt and I'm not sure he has the moveslots (neither the Dragon Dancer or the Bulky variant can spare the moveslot I think) and even then all he can really do is phaze it out. Unfortunately, you'll need to force him out quickly to prevent him from recovering the damage caused by switching in and neither of these Pokemon can do that.

Ferrothorn is public enemy number one, so make sure you have a concrete plan for dealing with him. Luring him out doesn't count!
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Poliwrath lacks a solid STAB to OHKO Ferrothorn, while Power Whip is a clean OHKO in return.
Sharpedo isn't going to OHKO Celebi anytime soon.

I agree that Sap Sipper Azumarill is great in a monowater team and should be your main counter to most grass types.
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what?

im sure adamant 252 attack life orb crunch OHKOes offensive nasty plot celebi.
 
Lee said:
I don't understand what Sap Sipper Azumarill actually does.
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Encore allows Gyara to set up, basically, and it attempts to status switchins with Scald or Toxic. There's also Soak/Toxic for Ferro, but it's incompatible with Encore...

bluemon said:
im sure adamant 252 attack life orb crunch OHKOes offensive nasty plot celebi.
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True, you need SR though.

Speaking of which, who's the most reliable SR user on a mono-water team? Empoleon?
 
You've got Empoleon, Swampert and Kabutops off the top of my head, none of which have reliable recovery. The only Water type with SR and recovery is.....Corsola.
 
There's also omastar, who has spikes and Rapid Spin as well. Much prefer Swampert and Empoleon because of typing though.

Just thought of Scarf / SS Cloyster as an interesting choice. Scarf is a good REvenge killer with some really powerful moves, particularly Icicle Spear for grass-types, but SS needs to set up.
 
LO Adamant Sharpedo Crunch vs 4/0 Celebi: 103.5% - 121.6%
LO Adamant Sharpedo Crunch vs 252/0 Celebi: 87.6% - 103%
LO Adamant Sharpedo Crunch vs 252/220+ Celebi: 65.3% - 77.2%
 
Lee said:
Ferrothorn is public enemy number one, so make sure you have a concrete plan for dealing with him. Luring him out doesn't count!
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I'll agree that he's a problem and needs to be considered as a threat, but seriously there have been many ideas listed here for taking out Ferrothorn and after talking to someone testing a mono-water, he describes some of the biggest threats as Gastrodon and boosting dragons. Ferrothorn requires a good team to beat him, but he does not deserve this much discussion. Making a list of other threats would be a good use of time I think.

As for boosting dragons, I suppose Quagsire with Ice Beam could work, but he needs to stay healthy. Probably not required, but one 'mon with ice shard would probably be nice. E-speed nite, especially at full health will be a total pain for both of these tactics.

@The few people suggesting Ludicolo, every time I look at him, he seems better and better. I should hope he can take on gastrodon 1v1 and leech seed is always a bonus.

^Just my opinions
 
This shit about Sap Sipper Azumarill is making me feel empty inside. So it has some okay bulk and can block Grass-type attacks? Why not give it Huge Power + Choice Band and use something else against Ferrothorn (or nail it with Superpower, whatever you please.)? Even after a Sap Sipper Attack boost, Adamant 252 now sits at a whopping 327 Atk. Say you want to run a Choice Band and you're lucky enough to get that boost? 490 Atk, as opposed to an UNBOOSTED Adamant 252 Huge Power at 436 (which can be boosted to 654 with its own Choice Band and no lucky switches!). Or you may be thinking "Sap Sipper Azumarill is not meant to go on the offense." What, then, is it doing? Encore or Perish Song I guess, which Ferrothorn honestly doesn't mind if it's laying down some rows of Spikes.
 
@ Stealth Rocks: Empoleon is definately your best best. Aside from being the only steel type (which should guarantee it a spot on the team) in the water group its also a prttey good special wall that can get up rocks without too much issue.

@Dragons: Stockpile Quag>boosters. Only really has to worry about Grass attacks and opposing Water attacks. And crits.
 
I'm kind of divided on standard Azumarill. Sure, it can lure in and eliminate Ferrothorn, hits more-or-less as hard as a Rayquaza Outrage at +1, but it's hard-walled by Jellicent, also hard-walled by Slowbro if its not packing Return (which Rain versions shouldn't), and it's slow.

But damn. That power IS tempting.
 
but seriously there have been many ideas listed here for taking out Ferrothorn
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all of which have been either gimmicks (Soak Octillery), useless Pokemon (Sap Sipper Azumarill), or lures (take your pick).

the problem with dealing with him through a lure is that a good player is going to say 'oh, mono-water - i best keep my Ferrothorn alive' and then he's going to avoid switching it into that Swampert without Leftovers or blindly switching into Kabutops.

Gastrodon could be reasonably problematic but we'll likely have HP Grass/Grass Knot on quite a few Pokemon and Tentacruel and his Toxic Spikes seem too good to pass up so I don't think it's even in the same league as Ferrothorn.

As for the Dragons? Er...everything on our team learns an Ice attack by default and Quagsire is likely to be on the team. Empoleon is a great Lati@s switch-in. I don't see them being an especially big problem (but show me a team that doesn't struggle with Dragons hehe).

don't wanna tread on Run's toes but does anybody fancy summarising where we stand? I think it'd be nice to know:

- what style of team?
- what's the victory condition?

everything else can be built around that
 
Style of team=balanced
Victory condition (imo): SubDD or Taunt DD gyarados

Also SubSD Tentacruel if you want to be a boss.
 
The best way for a Water-type to power through Ferrothorn is, imo, raw power. If Ferrothorn risks a 3 or even 2HKO by switching into your STAB it puts the opponent in a bit of a bad position. For example, Specs Rotom-W and Specs Vaporeon both deal a good amount of damage with Hydro Pump in the rain. They can't necessarily switch in safely (Gyarados is probably the "best" switch in), but Ferro has difficulty switching in to sponge their attacks too.
 
If the team is running Ludicolo (and I'm loving what Ludicolo can do on paper), he can probably deal with Ferrothorn with repeated Focus Blasts. Ludicolo also stops Gastrodon from ruining your day, can take on certain Dragons with its reasonable bulk, and can seed if you want to.

Now that I think about, Specs Tornadus is a HUGE problem, considering it hits every potential member of a Rain team viciously hard with Specs Hurricane or Focus Blast. Like, there's no safe switch-in to it, and the few Water-type users of Ice Shard can't switch in at all (Cloyster), have issues getting a team slot (Lapras) or are just plain terrible (Dewgong).
 
Tobes said:
The best way for a Water-type to power through Ferrothorn is, imo, raw power. If Ferrothorn risks a 3 or even 2HKO by switching into your STAB it puts the opponent in a bit of a bad position. For example, Specs Rotom-W and Specs Vaporeon both deal a good amount of damage with Hydro Pump in the rain. They can't necessarily switch in safely (Gyarados is probably the "best" switch in), but Ferro has difficulty switching in to sponge their attacks too.
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^Good point, it's easy to forget just how powerful our STABs are going to be under rain, and a good Specs user will devastate no matter what the opposing team is (Liking Vaporeon, but has anyone considered Specs Jellicent? Water Spout has dat power, but of course using Specs Jellicent means losing a great Support poke)

Keeping a Ludicolo on hand for the leech seed immunity and neutrality to grass/electric is something I think should be considered more seriously too, especially with his sexy SpD and automatic recovery. While he generally fails to fill the roles a grass-type would usually fill, he still has that ground resist, and can tank the "specs rain hydro pump" kind of attacks that his teammates aren't quite as adept at absorbing with their single resist. He isn't a particularly great Grass counter with that special attack, but eh, he has access to focus blast and ice beam... It's a thought.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Ludicolo has total 4mms come to think of it. Focus Blast probably isn't a great option anyway unless you're considering Specs, since you've got to invest heavily in SpA to have a chance at 2HKOing standard Ferrothorn. a kinda of semi-bulky semi-special attacker set with protect, ice beam, giga drain, leech seed? Eh, we'd need to work out exactly what we want Ludicolo to do.

EDITEDIT: also agreeing with
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Style of team=balanced
Victory condition (imo): SubDD or Taunt DD gyarados
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completely. Thing about SubDD gyara though is its moveslot syndrome. Bounce seems pretty important right now, as most people are saying that Gyarados is one of the few ways to semi-reliably remove bulky grass-types, and combined with Waterfall, that greatly reduces his coverage. He's gonna need a couple DDs to sweep, and Rotom-W hard walls him almost no matter what.

Considering DD Gyara, are there any good water-type dual screeners? I know that kinda defeats the point of "balance", but it might be an idea...
 
still cant get through ferrothorn?
well, here is another gimmick set. it actually involves two pokemon.

starmie @Bull's eye
timid 252hp 4sp.attack 252 speed
rapid spin
trick
hydro pump
hp grass/ice beam/thunderbolt/psyshock

qwilfish @leftovers
ability: intimidate
trait: adamant
4hp 252atk 252speed
-substitute
-swords dance
-poison jab
-waterfall

heres how it works. lure in ferrothorn with starmie, and use trick on the switch. now it lost its immunity to poison.
now switch to qwilfish, sub, set up, and hit it with a super effective STAB poison jab.

this might be gimmicky but it also ensures a spin. which is good.
 
That might work except for the fact that Ferrothorn can get up Spikes at LEAST once during that switch. The point isn't to take him out in 2 or more turns. Have you done damage calcs on that brutal Qwilfish?

edit: I see your point bluemon lol
 
My Qwilfish (leftovers) +2 vs Standard Ferrothorn (252/48 relaxed) = 90.9%~107.4%
Qwilfish @ life orb +2 vs Standard Ferrothorn (252/48 relaxed) = 117.6% ~ 138.6%
Qwilfish @ life orb +2 vs fully defensive Ferrothorn (252/252 relaxed)= 101.1% ~ 119.9%

very impressive, i would say.

Also, a -1 (intimidate) powerwhip never 2HKOes.
you can go defensive for powerwhip not to break the subs.

EDIT: nvm. ferrothorn always breaks the subs.
Subs are for thunderwave and leech seed
 
I think you're mostly going to have to accept that spikes are going down against this team. Killing Ferrothorn is one thing, but preventing it from setting up is near impossible.
 
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