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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
People are so dumb they need to see a tournament to realize a hero is good.
Xerath : Chauster picked him two times and went like 10/0 > Went from worst AP mid ever to best AP mid ever
Jungle Maokai : Same?
I will tell you some secrets : Ashe is a completely viable carry / Tryndamere top is really good and beat a lot of solotops / Pantheon is good as an AD Caster (See Talon for example) as both mid and solotop / Wukong was already a decent pick BEFORE the boosts / Warwick is an amazing solotop / ...
Open your mind. Pretty much EVERY hero in the game is viable at high-ELO play, some heroes just need a favorable team comp to show their potential while some are just good in every team comp.
Karthus do not need nerfs btw, Reginald is just a top level Karthus playing at his best right now. If we were to follow this logic, Vayne, Riven, Kennen, Yorick, Ezreal, Alistar, Soraka, Sona, Ryze, Leblanc, ... would need a nerf ?
EDIT : Hoping that this match will prove Vlad is viable with a good team comp, don't think it will happen though
Xerath : Chauster picked him two times and went like 10/0 > Went from worst AP mid ever to best AP mid ever
Jungle Maokai : Same?
I will tell you some secrets : Ashe is a completely viable carry / Tryndamere top is really good and beat a lot of solotops / Pantheon is good as an AD Caster (See Talon for example) as both mid and solotop / Wukong was already a decent pick BEFORE the boosts / Warwick is an amazing solotop / ...
Open your mind. Pretty much EVERY hero in the game is viable at high-ELO play, some heroes just need a favorable team comp to show their potential while some are just good in every team comp.
Karthus do not need nerfs btw, Reginald is just a top level Karthus playing at his best right now. If we were to follow this logic, Vayne, Riven, Kennen, Yorick, Ezreal, Alistar, Soraka, Sona, Ryze, Leblanc, ... would need a nerf ?
EDIT : Hoping that this match will prove Vlad is viable with a good team comp, don't think it will happen though
People knew Xerath was good. She is essentially Annie with a 1300 range ult. Yeah...pretty sure that did not come out of the blue. Maokai has existed longer, and while the new masteries certainly made him more viable jungling, people almost never played him before. Pantheon is not as good as other options for the same lanes he can run. Wukong had a VEEEEERRY weak laning phase, and still does, as opposed to safer, more consistent tops like SKARNAH or Udyr and such who possess sustain. Warwick solo top is not amazing. He is sustainable, but doesn't have as much utility as other tops outside of his ult. Tryndamere is okay in counter lanes against non-sustain tops, but just isn't as good in lane as other champs like Akali, who have better sustain and better harass.
-Most of the people thought Xerath was useless, even some High ELO players thought he was not viable at all, but you could see a lot of threads talking about how bad Xerath was.
-Jungle Maokai is already old, and has already been seen, even if competitive play, however, most people don't realize his CC is insane, his ult is really good in teamfights and his tankiness makes him a pretty powerful Tank/jungler, like Rammus. Now, I'm pretty sure Leona could be a could jungler if she was better at clearing, maybe with new masteries.
-What would you define as "other options" ? Because there are not much pure AD Casters/Assassin, I can only think of Talon right now, which offers different options (not better or worse), people underestimate Pantheon burst and presence, he is very good in mid lane and snowballs easily. Not to say a well placed ulti is like insta Ace during a teamfight, he also have hard CC and ranged harass.
-Nasus early phase is even weaker, Wukong may not have sustain, but he deals a LOT of damage and can get out easily with his clone, so he can trade blows evenly, and even win. And well, comparing Wukong to Udyr is like comparing Vladimir to Annie : They share the same lane, but not the same role.
-If Suppression + AS to your whole team + ability to see low health people and chase them easily to clean after a teamfight while being able to tank is not enough for you, I don't know what you classify as utility.
-Well, of course a MELEE SQUISHY champion can't win a fight against an ASSASSIN which also has ranged harass + stealth. It's like telling me Vladimir isn't doing good against Fiddlesticks in lane. The role of an assasin is to burst down squishies then disappear. However, Tryndamere does well against tanky sustain champs like Udyr, because he can reduce incoming damage, does WAY more damage and can regain his life quick without auto attacking, not to say his Ult offers him 5s to fight.
-Jungle Maokai is already old, and has already been seen, even if competitive play, however, most people don't realize his CC is insane, his ult is really good in teamfights and his tankiness makes him a pretty powerful Tank/jungler, like Rammus. Now, I'm pretty sure Leona could be a could jungler if she was better at clearing, maybe with new masteries.
-What would you define as "other options" ? Because there are not much pure AD Casters/Assassin, I can only think of Talon right now, which offers different options (not better or worse), people underestimate Pantheon burst and presence, he is very good in mid lane and snowballs easily. Not to say a well placed ulti is like insta Ace during a teamfight, he also have hard CC and ranged harass.
-Nasus early phase is even weaker, Wukong may not have sustain, but he deals a LOT of damage and can get out easily with his clone, so he can trade blows evenly, and even win. And well, comparing Wukong to Udyr is like comparing Vladimir to Annie : They share the same lane, but not the same role.
-If Suppression + AS to your whole team + ability to see low health people and chase them easily to clean after a teamfight while being able to tank is not enough for you, I don't know what you classify as utility.
-Well, of course a MELEE SQUISHY champion can't win a fight against an ASSASSIN which also has ranged harass + stealth. It's like telling me Vladimir isn't doing good against Fiddlesticks in lane. The role of an assasin is to burst down squishies then disappear. However, Tryndamere does well against tanky sustain champs like Udyr, because he can reduce incoming damage, does WAY more damage and can regain his life quick without auto attacking, not to say his Ult offers him 5s to fight.
As I'm pretty much still a noob at LoL myself, I can only comment on a few of your claims, but I can talk about the ones I know about.
Xerath patch came out during some other tournies, the pro players didn't have time to actually test him right when he came out, which accounts for the delayed response.
Pantheon can snowball hard, but to compare him to Talon is disingenuous. Talon is MUCH more bursty than Pantheon could ever dream of being. Pantheon is kinda of an interesting champ because he lies somewhere between a bruiser and an assassin; he has a bit of burst and a bit of tankiness, but he doesn't excel at either. His amount of tankiness relative to his burst makes him GREAT for solo queue where you can't rely on team mates to always have your back, but the raw burst of Talon makes him a superior pick at the competitive level in general, where you have team mates to protect you. That isn't to say to say Pantheon is bad (Pantheon ult can do some cool things, even if it's more useful for quick positioning / enemy displacement than actual damage), but he has a different role than Talon, who fits more firmly into the pure assassin mold.
Xerath patch came out during some other tournies, the pro players didn't have time to actually test him right when he came out, which accounts for the delayed response.
Pantheon can snowball hard, but to compare him to Talon is disingenuous. Talon is MUCH more bursty than Pantheon could ever dream of being. Pantheon is kinda of an interesting champ because he lies somewhere between a bruiser and an assassin; he has a bit of burst and a bit of tankiness, but he doesn't excel at either. His amount of tankiness relative to his burst makes him GREAT for solo queue where you can't rely on team mates to always have your back, but the raw burst of Talon makes him a superior pick at the competitive level in general, where you have team mates to protect you. That isn't to say to say Pantheon is bad (Pantheon ult can do some cool things, even if it's more useful for quick positioning / enemy displacement than actual damage), but he has a different role than Talon, who fits more firmly into the pure assassin mold.
Ok, I will tell you why both are good picks and offer different options :
Talon :
-Silence
-Slow
-Stealth + movement speed
-Ultra-high burst
-Gap closer
Pantheon :
-Stun
-Gap closer
-Ability to block incoming attack
-Ranged harass
-Semi-global ult
-High burst
Pantheon has less burst because he has the ability to harass any enemy easily, while Talon has to get to his face (in early). Pantheon's ult offers him a GREAT presence all over the map (even more if he is mid). Trying to do dragon ? Gather teammates and ult right on it. Trying to teamfight in a tight spot ? AoE damage to everyone. Trying to tower hug with half-health ? Np, I just ult so you can't go anywhere and jump you to death (while blocking incoming tower shots of course).
People underestimate Pantheon's ult a lot. But this is what make him so good, if you use it correctly, you should get kills or assists in early game EVERYTIME (and you should be mid for that reason) by helping other lanes. Just the fact of having this ult can stop people from following a teammate, trying to dive, doing a dragon if they're not completely winning.
Also, Pantheon is a lot more bursty late game because he scales of BONUS damage, while Talon scales of Attack damage, but he has very good rations to make up for it.
As you can see, why they're playing in the same category (AD Casters/Assassin), they're already completely different and each one has his own advantages. And I'm pretty sure Pantheon is a viable pick at any level of play, we have yet to see someone play him good enough to do that (LoCiero is amazing with him though).
As I predicted, Vladimir did pretty good considering how outplayed they were, he got one double and a triple or two triple and did most of the work in teamfights. There goes our WORST SHIT THAT EVER WENT TO MIDLANE (since nerfs)
[EDIT] Real mantheon build is : Brutalizer, 2 BTs, Last whisper, CC boots, Banshee/GA/whatever you need to stay alive long enough.
Talon :
-Silence
-Slow
-Stealth + movement speed
-Ultra-high burst
-Gap closer
Pantheon :
-Stun
-Gap closer
-Ability to block incoming attack
-Ranged harass
-Semi-global ult
-High burst
Pantheon has less burst because he has the ability to harass any enemy easily, while Talon has to get to his face (in early). Pantheon's ult offers him a GREAT presence all over the map (even more if he is mid). Trying to do dragon ? Gather teammates and ult right on it. Trying to teamfight in a tight spot ? AoE damage to everyone. Trying to tower hug with half-health ? Np, I just ult so you can't go anywhere and jump you to death (while blocking incoming tower shots of course).
People underestimate Pantheon's ult a lot. But this is what make him so good, if you use it correctly, you should get kills or assists in early game EVERYTIME (and you should be mid for that reason) by helping other lanes. Just the fact of having this ult can stop people from following a teammate, trying to dive, doing a dragon if they're not completely winning.
Also, Pantheon is a lot more bursty late game because he scales of BONUS damage, while Talon scales of Attack damage, but he has very good rations to make up for it.
As you can see, why they're playing in the same category (AD Casters/Assassin), they're already completely different and each one has his own advantages. And I'm pretty sure Pantheon is a viable pick at any level of play, we have yet to see someone play him good enough to do that (LoCiero is amazing with him though).
As I predicted, Vladimir did pretty good considering how outplayed they were, he got one double and a triple or two triple and did most of the work in teamfights. There goes our WORST SHIT THAT EVER WENT TO MIDLANE (since nerfs)
[EDIT] Real mantheon build is : Brutalizer, 2 BTs, Last whisper, CC boots, Banshee/GA/whatever you need to stay alive long enough.
Makes sense, for a second I though I had to stack IE and Bloodthirsters and wait for an initiation before popping W + ulti then proceed to life-stealing-tank their carries. Will work better as a bruiser.
I tried laning with him but his mana problem is horrendous. Easy enough poke and sustain but dat mana problems
I've also been playing a lot of Fizz and on the fence on which build I should lean towards more: attack speed/on hit procs or pure mage nuke/support?
AS/on hit (aka Teemo style) jungle, AP mid, or tanky DPS solo top.
-Maybe for a day people thought Xerath was bad, but I know that even I could tell that anyone with a 1300 range ult and poke and stun could not possibly be bad
-Maokai's CC is insane? A 2-second snare and a 2 second slow. Omg so insane.
-Other options mean any other assassins, I don't see why being AD makes any difference. If you NEED a specifically AD assassin, Talon is straight better. Also Panth ult is garbage, incredibly easy to avoid if you see it, and only good as an almost-as-good-as Teleport.
-Warwick just doesn't do that much in a teamfight without his ult, from what I have seen. I don't know Warwick much, but and ult-less Warwick is not nearly as good as many other top laners.
-Nasus early phase is worse? No fucking duh. That's because nasus literally scales better than any other champion in the game outside of Crapgar. Wukong does not scale well enough to justify his crappy laning phase most of the time. His ult knockup is his only real utility outside of okay damage. Also, you totally can compare Vlad and Annie, one is simply better in lane, which is something to consider when thinking of whether you would rather have Annie or Vlad on your team.
-I'm just talking about in general Tryn against top laners. Without full fury, Tryndamere does absolute DICK for damage early game, and can be pushed around by anyone with a little sustain, making him not a safe or consistent top laner. Also he literally has to autoattack to regain health, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about there.
Exactly the way I play, thanks for confirming
CDR Q spamming WW is decent enough at top lane IMO. He is like the melee version of Vladimir
Without a doubt he is a dick to lane against, but being good in lane does not make you a good champ
-People with a brain saw that Xerath was good.
-There are not a lot of spells that offer a 1s root (at lvl.1) + a gap closer, so yeah, it's insane as a jungler, because it offers great ganks without using Flash or anything.
-Of course you can avoid the big red circle of doom. Better run back right at those enemies chasing you. Why everyone is saying Pantheon's ult suck assuming the guy playing it is a complete dumbass ?
-Suppression is not enough ? What about melting all those squishies while being unkillable with all your defense/sustain (in reality, you're not invincible, but by the time you drop dead, the enemy team is aced), being able to give 40% AS to your team, giving vision on fleeing enemies ?
-You underestimate Wukong early damage.
-I would like to hear who told you that Trynd isn't sustained himself, because it is completely wrong. He is cooldown based, so he can spam as much as he wants, he has free heal, free kite and free damage reduction, I mean, everything in that kit is made for you to reduce incoming damage while you farm. Unless you're trying to trade blows with someone that is obviously countering you in 1v1 at your current level, in which case you just farm until you're able to take him 1v1.
-No, Annie isn't better in lane than Vlad. you can't be better against EVERYONE, therefore, this statement is wrong. Vladimir counters Morgana for example, while Annie doesn't.
-There are not a lot of spells that offer a 1s root (at lvl.1) + a gap closer, so yeah, it's insane as a jungler, because it offers great ganks without using Flash or anything.
-Of course you can avoid the big red circle of doom. Better run back right at those enemies chasing you. Why everyone is saying Pantheon's ult suck assuming the guy playing it is a complete dumbass ?
-Suppression is not enough ? What about melting all those squishies while being unkillable with all your defense/sustain (in reality, you're not invincible, but by the time you drop dead, the enemy team is aced), being able to give 40% AS to your team, giving vision on fleeing enemies ?
-You underestimate Wukong early damage.
-I would like to hear who told you that Trynd isn't sustained himself, because it is completely wrong. He is cooldown based, so he can spam as much as he wants, he has free heal, free kite and free damage reduction, I mean, everything in that kit is made for you to reduce incoming damage while you farm. Unless you're trying to trade blows with someone that is obviously countering you in 1v1 at your current level, in which case you just farm until you're able to take him 1v1.
-No, Annie isn't better in lane than Vlad. you can't be better against EVERYONE, therefore, this statement is wrong. Vladimir counters Morgana for example, while Annie doesn't.
-So you admit that you were wrong in your point regarding Xerath
-Maokai is good. Yeah not arguing that. He does not have "crazy CC" though. Alistar even has better CC and can jungle as well, admittedly not as well, just to offer an example.
-There are rarely only two directions a champ can go. This means that the moment they see the red circle on the ground they just walk away from it to a safe direction. Pretty simple stuff. If you really want to argue that Panth's ult is good, I'm not going to, it's not worth my time.
-Melting carries is rarely possible in teamfights (why tanks and cc exist), and without his ult/if it gets interrupted, which it ALWAYS will be, he provides little to a fight.
-No I do not
-No duh he sustains himself, but for a significant amount of time after healing, he does the most worthless damage in lane, making him be pushed around by his opponent easily. Opponents can deny him from farming, you can't just say "Oh just farm and ignore them", that's not how lanes work ever.
-Certain champs are better laners than others. This is a simple fact of life. Veigar and Kassadin (pre-6) and Fizz are much worse laners than Vlad, Rumble, or Swain. WHO WOULDA GUESSED. Outside of matchups there are just better laners, and that is a factor in the viability of a champ. If you don't recognize that, it's honestly not worth my time to argue against naivete.
-Masterful
-Shut
-Up
EDIT: I just wanna establish that masterful still has a problem with shouting his mouth off about anything and everything in spite of knowing nothing, I'm not just picking on him it's really just every post he makes is like this. You say Trynd does dick for damage but Elementz has Trynd in tier 1 for solo queue specifically because of the damage he deals early game. Having played, played against, and played with Trynd I can vouch for this.
-Shut
-Up
EDIT: I just wanna establish that masterful still has a problem with shouting his mouth off about anything and everything in spite of knowing nothing, I'm not just picking on him it's really just every post he makes is like this. You say Trynd does dick for damage but Elementz has Trynd in tier 1 for solo queue specifically because of the damage he deals early game. Having played, played against, and played with Trynd I can vouch for this.
Maokai CC compared to other jungler CCs:
1) GP: On-hit slow, no hard CC. Maokai has a snare which is much better for ganking.
2) Warwick: Ganks pre-6 suck dick, once he's 6 he's gets his ult off and has a chase. Maokai pre-6, kit arguably more useful.
3) Amumu: Skillshot stun vs targetable stun, has ultimate for stun. CC win to Amumu but Maokai's much easier to use and can gank a lot more often as effectively because he doesn't rely on an ult to maximize his utlity.
4) Udyr: 1 second stun vs a 1+ second snare + 2 second slow. Hm...
5) Lee Sin: That aoe slow is arguably harder to get off because it's not targetable though he does have great chasing potential.
6) Fiddlesticks: Fear and silence are OP also fucking Crowstorm.
7) Nocturne: Fear is conditional because the leash is so much shorter now after the nerfs. Maokai ganks have more cc but less actual killing potential because once the target's feared, Noc has better damage potential.
8) Trundle: Pillar is god but no hard CC unfortunately.
9) Tryndamere: 4 second conditional CC vs 1+ snare and 2 second slow. Arguable.
10) Rammus: Definitely Rammus here, that Powerball + taunt are way too good.
11) Shaco: Fear from boxes as long as they're triggered, slow from Two-Shiv. Maokai CC better.
12) Chogath: Great CC if you can land his stuff because they're skillshots. Better than Maokai. Should play him lane though.
13) Alistar: Should play him support, need a wall to utilize full potential. More conditional than Maokai, as Mao gets off his CC more easily.
I'll stop there because I'm getting lazy, but the champs that have better CC than Maokai are Rammus, Cho (who you should be playing lane anyway), Fiddle, Trundle, and WW post-6. That's not many junglers, so idk what you're saying about Maokai not having "crazy CC".
And you ult with WW after all the tank's CDs are down, not at the beginning of the fight. Using WW ult at the beginning of the fight is dumb because they can easily peal WW off the carry. You want to use it in the middle to maximizing its suppression abilities. And lanewick is not bad, it's like lane Udyr. Never leaves/dies in lane unless ganked, the more you focus him the better it is for your carry, harasses for free (both Udyr and WW's Q), both chase exceptionally well. The only difference is WW has a team buff while Udyr has more CC through bear and has a shield whereas WW has a heal. They play the exact same role so idk why you think lanewick is bad.
And yes you underestimate Wukong's early damage. E -> Q is extremely powerful. Wukong's only drawback is that he has no lane sustain, which is why he loses against lane sustain champions. Versus champs like J4 or an early Irelia though, he's fine.
Also there aren't that many champs that can freely deny Trynd farm without retaliation because Tryndamere will win the tradeoff as long as he doesn't draw much minion aggro. It's not hard for him to gain fury early-game also when many champs will lose to him 1v1 just because they have no skills or damage whereas Trynd has one of the earliest level 2-3 damage capabilities just through sheer crits.
1) GP: On-hit slow, no hard CC. Maokai has a snare which is much better for ganking.
2) Warwick: Ganks pre-6 suck dick, once he's 6 he's gets his ult off and has a chase. Maokai pre-6, kit arguably more useful.
3) Amumu: Skillshot stun vs targetable stun, has ultimate for stun. CC win to Amumu but Maokai's much easier to use and can gank a lot more often as effectively because he doesn't rely on an ult to maximize his utlity.
4) Udyr: 1 second stun vs a 1+ second snare + 2 second slow. Hm...
5) Lee Sin: That aoe slow is arguably harder to get off because it's not targetable though he does have great chasing potential.
6) Fiddlesticks: Fear and silence are OP also fucking Crowstorm.
7) Nocturne: Fear is conditional because the leash is so much shorter now after the nerfs. Maokai ganks have more cc but less actual killing potential because once the target's feared, Noc has better damage potential.
8) Trundle: Pillar is god but no hard CC unfortunately.
9) Tryndamere: 4 second conditional CC vs 1+ snare and 2 second slow. Arguable.
10) Rammus: Definitely Rammus here, that Powerball + taunt are way too good.
11) Shaco: Fear from boxes as long as they're triggered, slow from Two-Shiv. Maokai CC better.
12) Chogath: Great CC if you can land his stuff because they're skillshots. Better than Maokai. Should play him lane though.
13) Alistar: Should play him support, need a wall to utilize full potential. More conditional than Maokai, as Mao gets off his CC more easily.
I'll stop there because I'm getting lazy, but the champs that have better CC than Maokai are Rammus, Cho (who you should be playing lane anyway), Fiddle, Trundle, and WW post-6. That's not many junglers, so idk what you're saying about Maokai not having "crazy CC".
And you ult with WW after all the tank's CDs are down, not at the beginning of the fight. Using WW ult at the beginning of the fight is dumb because they can easily peal WW off the carry. You want to use it in the middle to maximizing its suppression abilities. And lanewick is not bad, it's like lane Udyr. Never leaves/dies in lane unless ganked, the more you focus him the better it is for your carry, harasses for free (both Udyr and WW's Q), both chase exceptionally well. The only difference is WW has a team buff while Udyr has more CC through bear and has a shield whereas WW has a heal. They play the exact same role so idk why you think lanewick is bad.
And yes you underestimate Wukong's early damage. E -> Q is extremely powerful. Wukong's only drawback is that he has no lane sustain, which is why he loses against lane sustain champions. Versus champs like J4 or an early Irelia though, he's fine.
Also there aren't that many champs that can freely deny Trynd farm without retaliation because Tryndamere will win the tradeoff as long as he doesn't draw much minion aggro. It's not hard for him to gain fury early-game also when many champs will lose to him 1v1 just because they have no skills or damage whereas Trynd has one of the earliest level 2-3 damage capabilities just through sheer crits.
Marth, and anyone else regarding jungle Maokai: He has amazing CC and excellent ganks. He can only really be compared to Shaco and Rammus in terms of ganking prowess. However, he's not very fast, the jungle isn't very kind to his item build mid/late game (many Maokai players will want to go something like RoA or Triforce as core and it's difficult to get that kind of gold), and he has a worse late-game than some of the super-carries you see like jungle Noc, GP, Udyr, etc.
He's used, IMO, to give one lane a decisive advantage early on and to ride that snowball to victory. In a CLG vs. TSM scrim, for example, TheOddOne and Rain Man got first blood on Hotshot's Udyr top at level 2, letting Rain Man's Akali just carry the game from that point on.
In short he has a spot in highly organized play revolving around early game lane dominance but he's outclassed in a LOT of other aspects.
He's used, IMO, to give one lane a decisive advantage early on and to ride that snowball to victory. In a CLG vs. TSM scrim, for example, TheOddOne and Rain Man got first blood on Hotshot's Udyr top at level 2, letting Rain Man's Akali just carry the game from that point on.
In short he has a spot in highly organized play revolving around early game lane dominance but he's outclassed in a LOT of other aspects.
Are you asking for a guide on general 3v3 tactics or a good guide for a champion on Twisted?
It's astounding how opposed you are to reading what I actually write. Without a full fury bar, Tryn does absolute shit damage. This is a simple fact. I understand that he can crit to do lots of damage early, but in order to heal himself, he essentially gimps his damage like crazy until he builds up rage. I am not saying Tryn is bad, just that he is not as good in lane as other sustain champs imo. Now if oyu have a problem wioth that statement, please make a logical argument as to how it is incorrect and provide legitimate support outside of a tier list rating. K thx
The legitimate support was my personal experiences as and with Tryndamere, personal experiences you don't have as I constantly doubt that you even play LoL.
You said he did dick for damage. Now you are recanting that after everyone corrects you, but still trying to save face in a ridiculous way (of course fury helps him deal damage, that is his kit, but he deals great damage at level 1). At level 1 he has 59 AD, extremely high, and he can go as high 73 with Bloodlust. 100 Fury isn't even a necessity, but it does give him a 35% crit chance, which at level 1 without items gives him 17% more crit than a champ with a full page of crit runes.
People will disagree on the nature of assassin vs. bruisers, or the correct use of certain items, but you are just boldly incorrect all the time.
