-
Follow our Instagram!
-
Curious about what we're currently doing about bots? Check out the latest updates from staff in this thread.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Cloyster Discussion
- Thread starter FaceFaceFace
- Start date
70% minimum is still shaky ground, though. What if Slowbro had to take on a Dragonite or something earlier in the match and didn't get a chance to Slack Off? Even with regenerator, relying on Pokemon to be in good health all the time is dodgy. Cloyster is pretty tough to check thanks to the ability to go Hydro Pump or Razor Shell along with that retarded defense. It's usually best to either carry a faster revenge killer or some solid priority, even if you have a defensive check. Cloyster still has a tough time setting up on a lot of popular Pokemon, though, and it's a lot less threatening if it does not have Rain support.
I kept meaning to try defensive Cloyster back when I played OU, but I never got around to it. If I ever come back it's right up there on my "try this" list.
I kept meaning to try defensive Cloyster back when I played OU, but I never got around to it. If I ever come back it's right up there on my "try this" list.
It's not 70%, it is 67% minimum.
Also according to the usage statistics, only 11,6% of the Cloyster use Life Orb, and 19,6% of the Cloyster use Hydro Pump.
So even if you think that 67% is too much for you to consider Slowbro as a reliable counter (which i can't help but wonder myself, but whatever), you also have to think that the circumstances that this will happen are very rare. So for this damage output to happen Cloyster must have Hydro Pump AND Life Orb AND Rain AND find a turn to set-up AND Hydro Pump must hit, so add all these factors together, and you will see that Slowbro will almost never find himself losing that much anyway...
If we assume that 19,6% of all the LO Cloyster use Hydro Pump then, LO Hydro Pump will appear in 2,2% of all Cloyster. Add in the accuracy of Hydro Pump and the chance of your Slowbro taking a LO Hydro Pump goes down to 1,7%. And this is assuming that any LO HP Cloyster you will encounter will be used in rain, and that rain will be up when Cloyster sets up, which is something false with the popularity of Sand and Sun, so the percentage goes even lower to around 1% (just my personal opinion about this percentage, but it could be anywhere from 1,7% to 0%).
So to sum it up, your Slowbro will be taking 67%-79% damage at worst from Cloyster, which will happen in around 1% of the time.
I'm not saying that Slowbro cannot beat Cloyster, because that's untrue; in most cases, yes, he will probably come out on top. However, he should not be the sole Cloyster check on a team, because there are situations in which he WILL be killed. The only team that really dgas at all about Cloyster is special HO, since GL setting Cloyster up on any special attacker not locked into HP Ice and surviving the 1+ Vacuum wave special HO is going to carry. I remember the last time I used Cloyster I had times when versus Physical HO I'd smash on Dnites Outrage after Scizor was dead and just clean sweep. That defense is ridiculous. Mew, Lucario and Infernape at least can all carry Vaccum Wave, although Mew needs Modest and a Life Orb to always KO with SR on the field and can never KO without it. Still, it's special HO. Cloyster can't do shit even with screens.
He is not a check, he is a counter, and one of the best to Cloyster. Of 'course Slowbro will fail to take on Cloyster sometime because he will be weakened from another threat, or because a crit will happen, but this is true for any counter to any pokemon, so i don't see why people keep bringing it up... It's in the player's hand to see what threatens him the most in the opposing team, and value his pokes accordingly.
If an opposing team has a Dragonite and a Cloyster and is a Rain team, then you should save Slowbro for whichever threat troubles your team most.
This is untrue. Even with 252 Adamant Conkeldurr and Cloyster taking Stealth Rock damage, Conkeldurr cannot OHKO a -1 Cloyster with Mach Punch. Scizor is even worse off, and Luke needs Vaccuum Wave.
Usage does not affect if the Pokemon is a counter or not here. If your argument was true, all Pokemon that aren't countered by the top ten Pokemon have no counters.
If a team decides not to use a Cloyster counter, it's not Slowbro's fault, and thus Slowbro's title of "Cloyster Counter" is not threatened.
In either case, he switches in, he's killed the next turn.
He slacks off, cloyster outdamages
He switches, something else dies
See the pattern?
Which is why you switch in on the Shell Smash. I have no idea why you would let them set up and then go to your counter.
I used to run a Specially Defensive Empoleon, as it made a good Special Tank. I always had a jolly time switching in on Cloyster knowing it can't KO it with anything, and then I retaliate with Grass Knot.
The question is, what is slowbro going to do to cloyster after he takes 60-70%?
Psychic?
yeah he is!
ohkos with rocks, most of the time without them. actually if cloysters running hydro pump then its naive so its pretty much gonna get destroyed.
also cloyster has a badass design what with the spikes and that cheeky grin
We were talking about LO Cloyster, which gets ohkoed 100% of the time with Psychic after a Shell mash, while White Herb variants require SR as you said, and only do 51%-60% to Slowbro in rain at +2 with HP.
Looks like dealing with Cloyster isn't all that easy...
The Slowbro argument aside,
I've recently come to realise that Mamoswine can switch in on Cloyster when Shell Smashing and beat it with EQ/superpower followed by an ice shard.
The Slowbro argument aside,
I've recently come to realise that Mamoswine can switch in on Cloyster when Shell Smashing and beat it with EQ/superpower followed by an ice shard.
No it can't.
Jolly +2 Icicle Spear vs 4/0 Mamoswine = 109.39% - 128.73%
edit: oh, Thick Fat I guess but Thick Fat Mamo is terrible...
double edit: 'water attack'
I believe that when keldeo is released he will be the best counter to cloyster. He resists all of his moves, and has decent bulk.
just pointing out that with a Life Orb and Rain (which im assuming is up considering you are running Keldo), Hydro Pump is doing 74.3 - 87.61% according to a honko calc. Again, not really the "best" counter out there.
I have been using Cloyster a lot lately, and its really fun. Its great atm since everyone is running Gliscor to check Terrakion (which Cloyster can set up on) and it scares out Dragonite / Mence / Landorus etc etc. Its pretty darn good, and Hydro Pump under Rain smashes shit like Skarmory and Bronzong which people switch in, expecting to wall or weaken, and then get owned. I am not denying it has its weaknesses, but when it sets up, its usually taking a pokemon or three down with it.
I have been using Cloyster a lot lately, and its really fun. Its great atm since everyone is running Gliscor to check Terrakion (which Cloyster can set up on) and it scares out Dragonite / Mence / Landorus etc etc. Its pretty darn good, and Hydro Pump under Rain smashes shit like Skarmory and Bronzong which people switch in, expecting to wall or weaken, and then get owned. I am not denying it has its weaknesses, but when it sets up, its usually taking a pokemon or three down with it.
Run explosion and LO on cloyster, bulky waters such as Tentacruel, Politoed and Slowbro are no longer counters as they are ohkoed, also when keldeo is released it gets destroyed. Cloyster is generally vulnerable to revenge killing via priority after it gets a kill anyway ( having taken damage settin up and having a sr weakness) and this gives your next sweeper a free switchin.
In general hydro pump is a much better option than razor shall I find.
In general hydro pump is a much better option than razor shall I find.
You must had accidentaly put a + SpA nature, since the calc you showed is for 4 SpA Modest Cloyster. 4 SpA Cloyster at +2, in rain, with LO, does exactly 66.75 - 78.42% to 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro, which means that Slowbro comfortably survives. Also if you see the calcs i did a while before, you will see that the combination of Hydro Pump and LO and rain and the accuracy of HP, amounts to a ~1% chance of Slowbro getting hit from such an attack, according to the moveset statistics.
I was calcing Keldo not Slowbro.
You are right. I must've been oblivious to Mamo's water weakness.
Slowbro seems very rare in OU. The most frequent 'block' attempts I encounter are Rotom-W, Vaporeon(!), and bulky steels - Jirachi, Ferrothorn etc.
Funny, putting Cloyster on my team has really helped increase my winning rate. Once Shell Smash goes off he's away and running, and anything else gets wiped clean by Gengar, who can also come in on any attempt to KO Cloyster with a fighting move and set up Substitute. Exciting. Cloyster is definitely starting to pique my interest.
I'm going to try and sign up for the Battling 101 thing. Hopefully I'll be able to learn more about the metagame from that. Maybe even build a Cloy-centric team! :naughty:
What's the verdict between Hydro Pump and Razor Shell? The latter does get a boost from Shell Smash and is more accurate; while the former has immense unboosted power. I'm currently more inclined toward Razor Shell since Cloyster usually cannot afford a miss.