That's a good point :O didn't realize that zapdos also countered the other top rain threats such as thundurus and keldeo :evan:
What moves do you guys use for the specially defensive Zapdos set?
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
- Thread starter Iconic
- Start date
- Status
That's a good point :O didn't realize that zapdos also countered the other top rain threats such as thundurus and keldeo :evan:
What moves do you guys use for the specially defensive Zapdos set?
How does Zapdos beat Thundurus-T when NP flat out nails it with a +2 LO / Thunder / Thunderbolt / HP Ice. Heck, with SR up I bet even at +0 Zapdos still takes a fair bit from LO Thundurus (still the most common set).
Some Calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 172-203 (44.9 - 53%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 216-255 (56.39 - 66.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 430-508 (112.27 - 132.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's a pretty garbage counter when LO Thundurus 2HKOs it. Zapdos, as stated by users of it, does little outside of "countering" Tornadus-T, which is definitely up for debate because it can't switch into Specs Tornadus-T without being forced to Roost, giving the opponent a free switch and essentially leaving the opponent with a healthier Tornadus-T and a free switch-in to Zapdos, guaranteeing momentum. What other rain special attackers does it counter? Oh that's right, none of them.
Zapdos does incredibly little outside of countering Tornadus-T, and it does a poor job of that if there are Rocks up, so citing it as a counter is entirely without merit, and certainly doesn't show that Tornadus-T isn't broken. You're using a Zapdos, for christ's sake, obviously something's wrong with this picture.
Calcs for a specialy defensive zapdos is 4 to 5 hit koed by tornadus t hurricane after leftovers. With rocks it can somewhat confortably roost or can attack immediately. Plus pressure will reduce tornadus t hurricane count.
So you have your standard rain-team with Poli / Torn-T / Keldeo / Ferrothorn and some fillers (most likely Tentacruel or Thundurus-T or something) and tell me Zapdos is bad? It hits at least half of the team for super effective damage with its STAB while Thundurus can't switch in realibly thanks to HP Ice. Ferro is your best bet, however, Heat Wave hurts even in rain and a Zapdos with Sub can outstall any Ferro. You also got 5 other member to deal with Ferro.
I know this is going to sound stupid, but I've been hyping defensive Stunfisk on IRC as a fun way to wall torn-t.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Stunfisk: 123-145 (29.14 - 34.36%) -- possible 4HKO
And you can play riskily and switch stunfisk into a u-turn because of static which can cause Torn-t to get paralyzed which basically makes it useless for the rest of the match
It does nicely against LO torn-t as well.
Just be sure to use resttalk or wish support so you have a healing method
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Stunfisk: 123-145 (29.14 - 34.36%) -- possible 4HKO
And you can play riskily and switch stunfisk into a u-turn because of static which can cause Torn-t to get paralyzed which basically makes it useless for the rest of the match
It does nicely against LO torn-t as well.
Just be sure to use resttalk or wish support so you have a healing method
Zapdos is an excellent check to Breloom as it resists both of it's STAB.SpDef Zapdos also does a pretty good job of handling RP Landorus as with Max SpDef,Hidden power isn't a 2HKO,as well as resist all of Scizor's attacking moves,a mon who is #1 used at the moment.Zapdos can also act as a genuine special wall walling stuff like LO Latias.Not to mention Zapdos's offensive presence with 125 base Spatk and can support the team by spreading paralysis or even dual screens.So saying that Zapdos has little purpose outside of countering Tornadus-T is wrong in so many ways.
Zapdos cannot check Breloom reliably at all. Low Sweep Breloom just laughs at Zapdos switchins, after which it can spore you, or just KO you with Stone Edge...
and the only way zapdos can wall things is if it runs a defensive EV spread, and uninvested 125 special attack is p. weak...
Uninvested 125 is p weak?
Zapdos is one of the few SpDef tanks that can OHKO Tornadus-T even without rocks. The oh-so-popular SpDef Rotom can't. Zappy isn't going to be sweeping teams in this meta but uninvested 125 is not weak by any means.
well yeah, but you're doing a pittance to other rain abusers that aren't weak to your STAB. HP Ice is going to be doing next to nothing to things like Thundurus-T, for example, who can set up on you
"next to nothing?" With a neutral nature and only 16 Sp. Atk:
PHP:
16SpAtk Zapdos (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 50% - 59% (150 - 178 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Zapdos can't switch into Thundurus-T, as already said ginganinja and it can't switch into Keldeo if Stealth Rock is up or it's raining because of Keldeo's Hydro Pump. It 2HKOs always Zapdos if rain is up and it 2HKOs Zapdos also without rain if Stealth Rock is up.
Anyway, on Special Defensive Zapdos I'd use Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, Heat Wave, Roost and Thunder Wave or Toxic, according to team which I'm using.
You cant' switch into thundy-t.
I'm going to rest my case about zapdos with this calc
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 255+ SpD Zapdos: 138-164 (36.03 - 42.81%) -- 96.95% chance to 3HKO
After SR that becomes 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 255+ SpD Zapdos: 138-164 (36.03 - 42.81%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
so yeah. Zapdos is a shitty check.
if zapdos is not at 100% health when it switches in, it dies.
the fact that it can be 2HKO'd by a decently common coverage move should say it all. And even if you don't want to risk going for the 33% chance to 2HKO, you can just u-turn out to a counter.
and if it's specs tornadus then you get this fun calc
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 255+ SpD Zapdos: 158-186 (41.25 - 48.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Since when does Tornadus carry HP Ice? No, I feel like this is a legitimate point to make. What does HP Ice hit that Hurricane doesn't?
The amount of stupid posts on this page is absurd. People have gone from calling Zapdos a bad pokemon to Zapdos is garbage as it can't wall anything else except from Torn-T, and someone claimed that LO Torn-T even 2HKOes with Hurricane. I guess this is the power of bandawgoning or/and bias. I didn't see half of those people bashing on Zapdos before some good players claimed that it was bad, or before Torn-T was a suspect, yet now for some strange reason Zapdos is a shitty Pokemon even though it is in B Rank in the viability rank thread, higher that Pokemon that would be described as mediocre such as Donphan, Espeon, Conkeldurr, and Abomasnow. I guess that sadly, logic can't be applied here...
Exactly, Tornadus-T usually hasn't Hidden Power Ice. It uses Hurricane, Superpower, U-Turn and Taunt or Rain Dance in the Life Orb one and it uses Hurricane, Focus Blast, U-Turn and Heat Wave or Air Slash in the Choice Specs one. Anyway, I think Hidden Power Ice is a interesting move to use on Tornadus-T in the current BW OU because Zapdos is really common to check Tornadus-T and Hidden Power Ice hits it hard.
Ummm.... but when was the last time you ran HP Ice on Torn-T... doesn't he have better things to run? The obligatory moves are Hurricane, U-Turn, and Superpower/Focus Blast. Leaving you one last move, and just throwing some moves people have suggested to run to beat said "checks/counters": Heat Wave, Sleep Talk, etc. Furthermore, the standard analysis on Smogon has Taunt, Rain Dance, and HP Ground slashed, with no mention of HP Ice. Just because you feel like running a tailored set to get around just one of its counters doesn't mean suddenly Torn-T can get past its counters every single time. Also, how can Torn-T possibly run all these moves? I think you guys are overhyping its coverage, and none of you even both recognizing the fact that he can be walled.
And yes he can U-Turn + Regenerator, but a good player can predict this and nail the incoming poke with a supereffective move, STAB move, crippling status, etc, all at the expense of measly U-Turn damage. Bam! You're basically up one poke. Just because Torn-T isn't damaged (lets assume Stealth Rock since honeslty only noobs play without entry hazards) and gained a couple percent, doesn't mean what switches in can't be damamged. A consistent theme in all the arguments I've read (and yes I'm reading the entire damn thread) doesn't automatically mean the rest of your team isn't vulnerable. Just because Torn-T can stick around doesn't make it as godly as you all hype it up to me. Can you really pull off a sweep when all you do is U-Turn around? As long as I have something to to tank a Hurricane (eg Jirachi or Rotom) all I really fear is OH GOD! U-Turn damage. Also, even though when you switch out Torn-T doesn't lose health to entry hazards, whatever you send in IS! Might as well just let me shuffle your team for damage. And after your team is marred by entry hazards, I'll bring in a sweeper and wreck your team.
Furthermore, Torn-T is frail as hell. Powerful neutral moves shoot this thing down, and when rain is as dominant as it is, Thunder is too. Nailing the bird for an OHKO. Is it really that hard to bring in a scarf poke to peg Torn-T for massive damage? Or are you just going to say "Oh I'll U-Turn again" like all the repetitive arguments I've read so far. The key factor for Torn-T is survivability yes, that's true, but just because it survives while spamming U-Turn doesn't make it overwhelmingly powerful; it's not even close to what Genesect was, or Shaymin-S, Darkrai, etc.
And yes he can U-Turn + Regenerator, but a good player can predict this and nail the incoming poke with a supereffective move, STAB move, crippling status, etc, all at the expense of measly U-Turn damage. Bam! You're basically up one poke. Just because Torn-T isn't damaged (lets assume Stealth Rock since honeslty only noobs play without entry hazards) and gained a couple percent, doesn't mean what switches in can't be damamged. A consistent theme in all the arguments I've read (and yes I'm reading the entire damn thread) doesn't automatically mean the rest of your team isn't vulnerable. Just because Torn-T can stick around doesn't make it as godly as you all hype it up to me. Can you really pull off a sweep when all you do is U-Turn around? As long as I have something to to tank a Hurricane (eg Jirachi or Rotom) all I really fear is OH GOD! U-Turn damage. Also, even though when you switch out Torn-T doesn't lose health to entry hazards, whatever you send in IS! Might as well just let me shuffle your team for damage. And after your team is marred by entry hazards, I'll bring in a sweeper and wreck your team.
Furthermore, Torn-T is frail as hell. Powerful neutral moves shoot this thing down, and when rain is as dominant as it is, Thunder is too. Nailing the bird for an OHKO. Is it really that hard to bring in a scarf poke to peg Torn-T for massive damage? Or are you just going to say "Oh I'll U-Turn again" like all the repetitive arguments I've read so far. The key factor for Torn-T is survivability yes, that's true, but just because it survives while spamming U-Turn doesn't make it overwhelmingly powerful; it's not even close to what Genesect was, or Shaymin-S, Darkrai, etc.
Zapdos has under 2% usage so it isn't a common enough threat to warrant giving up the utility of Tornadus's typical fillers. (Although he can easily make room for it) HP Ice actually has 17% usage, just 2% less than Taunt the standard filler on Torna-T. Heat Wave has surprisingly high usage at 34%, that's 2% more than Superpower. O:
Actually, when Tornadus-T first came out, a LOT of people ran Hidden Power Ice on him to beat Thundurus-T, which was everywhere. I think that HP Ice is still a really good move to give him on any set, because it helps him to beat things like Zapdos, as well as OHKOing Garchomp (which Hurricane can't). I'm not saying it's the BEST move for Tornadus-T, but saying it's useless is equivalent to saying that Zapdos is useless, both have their uses in certain situations. That being said, I think Zapdos is still a good counter to Tornadus-T, but that doesn't mean he isn't broken. There's still Confusion hax to think about, which can be a real problem for any Tornadus-T counter. Look at the battle Vemane posted, he won because he played really well and his opponent did not. His opponent could have killed Zapdos if it had stayed in and Hurricaned again when Zapdos was confused. Not to mention that Stealth Rocks wasn't even in play. Like I said, I think Zapdos is an effective counter to Tornadus-T, but it can still either switch out and heal, or hax you to death. Forcing a switch isn't the same with Tornadus-T as it is with other Pokemon because it doesn't care about Stealth Rock (the specs set doesn't, anyway).
The counter switches in, Tornadus-T U-turns on the same turn. Not sure how you're going to hit the counter to your counter on the switch if it's already in. And seeing as most scarfers revenge kill threats, Tornadus-T will already have a kill and if you switch in directly, well, a Hurricane to the face or a U-turn to a counter.
And as I already mentioned earlier (which I'm sure you already read before, seeing you read through the entire thread of 31 pages long) frailty isn't an argument, as frailer things have been banned.
And as I already mentioned earlier (which I'm sure you already read before, seeing you read through the entire thread of 31 pages long) frailty isn't an argument, as frailer things have been banned.
How is any of this relevant? Half of OU can U-turn / Volt Turn on their switch ins.
Examples please? You mean Blaziken that had perfect movepool and mixed attacking stats and speed boost?! Yep, that is it for the OU bans that are frailer than Tornadus-T. You also failed to neglect typing. Tornadus-T's typing isn't the great at all defensively. Grass / Ground / Fighting resists, yet all of them carry Ice Move / Rock move that OHKO you as coverage. Even the Celebi / Ferrothorn that you should be safe switching into care carry Thunder Wave. This guy is quite tricky to get in at times.
I'm going to take a moment to point out how stupid this post, as well as all of the ones like it, are.
Let us look at the usage statistcs for breloom first:
8 | Breloom | 116531 | 12.118% | 93079 | 11.968% |
Okay, fair amount of use. Now what about the movesets?
Low Sweep 14.500%
Stone Edge 11.932%
Stone Edge 11.932%
So in the 1/10 battles you see a breloom, you have a 1 in 10 chance of running into a breloom with either low sweep or stone edge.
So there is a 1/100 chance (about) for breloom to be able to do SHIT to zapdos.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now for the "zapdos is weak as shit" arguments that are being thrown around like crazy, let's do some calcs on the most popular special walls, shall we? (All are against smeargle for sake of comparison)
5 | Heatran | 135058 | 14.045% | 111131 | 14.289%
0 SpAtk Heatran Lava Plume vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 39.49% - 46.82%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
0 SpAtk Heatran Lava Plume vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 39.49% - 46.82%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
| 6 | Jirachi | 129003 | 13.415% | 106988 | 13.756% |
0 SpAtk Jirachi Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 31.21% - 36.94%
4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
(Before shitstorm of pointless "OHHHH THIS ONE CALC DOESN'T MAKE SENSE OUT OF THEM ALL" arguments, acknowledging utility of 60% paralysis)
0 SpAtk Jirachi Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 31.21% - 36.94%
4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
(Before shitstorm of pointless "OHHHH THIS ONE CALC DOESN'T MAKE SENSE OUT OF THEM ALL" arguments, acknowledging utility of 60% paralysis)
| 10 | Rotom-Wash | 110533 | 11.495% | 95702 | 12.305% |
0 SpAtk Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 72.93% - 85.99%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
0 SpAtk Rotom-W Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 48.73% - 57.64%
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
0 SpAtk Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 72.93% - 85.99%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
0 SpAtk Rotom-W Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 48.73% - 57.64%
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
| 22 | Tentacruel | 80466 | 8.368% | 64534 | 8.298% |
0 SpAtk Tentacruel Scald vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 38.54% - 45.86%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
0 SpAtk Tentacruel Scald vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 38.54% - 45.86%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
| 46 | Latias | 51380 | 5.343% | 40249 | 5.175% |
0 SpAtk Latias Dragon Pulse vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 38.22% - 45.22%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
0 SpAtk Latias Dragon Pulse vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 38.22% - 45.22%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
| 47 | Celebi | 49069 | 5.103% | 40309 | 5.183% |
0 SpAtk Celebi Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 29.62% - 34.71%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
0 SpAtk Celebi Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 29.62% - 34.71%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
| 51 | Gastrodon | 37968 | 3.948% | 30926 | 3.976% |
0 SpAtk Gastrodon Scald vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 43.31% - 51.59%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
0 SpAtk Gastrodon Scald vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 43.31% - 51.59%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
RAIN BOOSTED
And we all know how the pink blobs hit...
And now...
| 73 | Zapdos | 17526 | 1.823% | 14474 | 1.861% |
0 SpAtk Zapdos Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 56.69% - 67.2%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
0 SpAtk Zapdos Thunder vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Smeargle (+SpDef) : 56.69% - 67.2%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Beats out EVERYTHING except fucking rain boosted rotom-w hydro pump
So if zapdos hits like a paper bag, then every special wall ever much be useless as it hits a hell of a lot better than they do.
And for HP ICE tornadus usage:
| Hidden Power Ice 17.385% |
| Choice Specs 22.005% | (He sure as hell isn't using it on life orb)
Good luck with that.
Except none of them outspeed the entire tier save for base 125+ though. They also don't have Regen to recover from Life Orb recoil from using U-turn/Volt.
Nice double post noob :>
Also Vemane can you format your post better? You don't expect anyone to read that, do you? It looks like crap lol.
The point is that Tornadus switches out while dealing damage to said check and recovering its own health, allowing it to effectively outlast its own counters (this has been on every other page for a while).
Doesn't help that T^2's "counters" can be counted on one hand.
- Zapdos (not common at all + doesn't stand up too well against other rain mons, keldeo scarf Hpump ohkoes after rocks in rain and Ferro uses as set up fodder)
- Jirachi (best one but gets fuckd by Dugtrio)
- Chansey (gets eaten alive by taunt sets)
- Rotom-W (can only eat 2 Hurricanes, no recovery)
EDIT:
*cough*Mienshao is in UU*cough*
EDIT 2:
okay, catching up on the thread. Haven't posted /laddered as much as I would have liked due to holidays.
I probably would vote ban Torn-T if I made reqs. 79/80/90 isn't as frail as everyone is making it out to be, especially when you factor in Regenerator. 30% confusion on its main STAB can turn a solid counter into a, well, dead counter; just like Chomp's SV had a 20% chance to cost you the game (and lets be honest if you lose your Torn-T counter/check to the confusion chance it's GG right there).
- Status